Nationalism

Marquis
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Nationalism

Fuck the soldiers. Really.

Most of all 20th century misery can be blamed on the common human willingness to believe in bullshit. WTF is the glory of the Swastika today? Where is the historical importance of the Hammer and the Sicle? Just where do you think your Stars and Stripes are heading? Get off the train. Life is about living it, as it is, wherever you are, free from the interference of lords and royals, right?

Who are your masters? What lord are you serving? There are no nations anymore, there are only ideas now. Only old habits of regional conflicts and stubborn refusal of accepting that your age of glory has passed. You are no more. Your strength and beauty has vanished... without anyone being sorry... and without the world reacting in any significant way. Like... who cares?

Man equals man. This is the pinnacle of all wisdom that you'll ever learn. Reap what you sow.

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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Marquis wrote:Where is the

Marquis wrote:

Where is the historical importance of the Hammer and the Sicle?

i suppose the "historical importance" is in the eye of the beholder, but i feel it necessary to point out that the hammer and sickle are traditionally the symbols of the international proletariat, and thus are not nationalist.  the four major social-democratic organizations have all been known as "internationals" and have had delegations reflecting that.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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wait, what about soldiers?

wait, what about soldiers? what did we do to piss you off?


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atheist6in6a6foxhole

atheist6in6a6foxhole wrote:

wait, what about soldiers? what did we do to piss you off?

i don't know.  maybe it's backlash over your scopes with the bible verses engraved on them.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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 cute. as if we have a

 cute. as if we have a choice what scopes we have put on our weapons.


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atheist6in6a6foxhole

atheist6in6a6foxhole wrote:

what did we do to piss you off?

 

You are useful idiots in the service of evil men. All of you, on all sides.

(But then again, I was a soldier myself, back in the 80's, so who am I kidding?)

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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Marquis

Marquis wrote:

atheist6in6a6foxhole wrote:

what did we do to piss you off?

 

You are useful idiots in the service of evil men. All of you, on all sides.

(But then again, I was a soldier myself, back in the 80's, so who am I kidding?)

 

Hmm... all leaders are evil then?
Hmm... all soldiers are idiots?

Sounds like a heaping helping of generalization to me.

Nationalism isn't the only reason to have a millitary.

"Lisa, if the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girls sports, such as hot oil wrestling and foxy boxing and such."
Homer Simpson


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you were a soldier? well

you were a soldier? well then what the fuck is your problem, guy? once a useful idiot (i don't think "useful" was the right term), always a useful idiot. you will be buried with the flag of the country you hate. way to go.

"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." -George Bush, Sr.


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I don't hate soldiers. A

I don't hate soldiers. A soldier is a drudge, like a machine or a dog. Theirs is not to reason why as they say. I don't think human beings should be treated that way. In my opinion it's an affront to human dignity.

At the same time my sympathies are not endless. When your life is destroyed, which unfortunately is a distinct possibility, you must realize that it will not have been a cruel twist of fate nor a tragedy from the stars. You met it more than half way by placing yourself in the service of those who would destroy your life, and to your greater shame use you to destroy the lives of others.

As I see it the real tragedy is that the individual who is intelligent, creative, capable of many great things, and not a disposable commodity or a thing to be used as "cannon fodder" can be exploited in such a manner. Those who profit should be held to account for that and not to direct bitter hostility and bile towards people who have in a sense been wronged by that system.  

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Regretable............

iwbiek wrote:

atheist6in6a6foxhole wrote:

wait, what about soldiers? what did we do to piss you off?

i don't know.  maybe it's backlash over your scopes with the bible verses engraved on them.

 

 

         ..... But may I point out that NO soldier ever started a war!!!!!        Diplomates and politicians who SCREW UP  their jobs start wars.  Soldiers.  Honorable and mostly volunteers have to fight  ==   for the honor of others!!    Soldiers for loyal and patriotic reasons do the dirty work for the loyal and dirty who have not the spine to do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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atheist6in6a6foxhole

atheist6in6a6foxhole wrote:

you will be buried with the flag of the country you hate.

 

No I won't. I'm a civilian now. And I don't hate my country.

Which leads me to an interesting problem: What exactly is a "country"?

 

Is it

A) The land itself, or

B) The people who inhabit this land, or

C) The political entity and ideology of the state?

 

Whenever people speak of "their country" this is never made quite clear.

For me, as a Norwegian, the answer is easy. It is about 75% A, 24% B and only 1% C. I guess you can say it is personal. Which in oher words means that I consider the political system and whatever passing governmental body to be almost completely irrelevant when I speak of "my country". But I have many hundreds of generations of ancestors buried here. Without any fucking flag. I piss on the flag. It means fuck all. Nor does any of the bullshit that is spouted by politicians. But family and ancestry means everything.

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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 the definition of what

 the definition of what exactly a country is is in the eye of the beholder. for america, C would be the most realistic choice. of course, i didn't join to "defend my country," or "defeat terrorism" so i really don't care about any of those things.

what if your family ancestry is comprised of soldiers? what happens then? do you just flip them off and pretend they aren't there? i had a great uncle serve as a colonel for the confederates during the american civil war - which isn't something to brag about - but that doesn't mean he never existed. and it doesn't mean that he's been erased from my family tree.

"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." -George Bush, Sr.


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atheist6in6a6foxhole

atheist6in6a6foxhole wrote:

 what if your family ancestry is comprised of soldiers?

 

"Norway" in its present form has only existed for a 100 years (105, to be exact).

But my family has existed for thousands of years. There were quite a lot of "warriors" - as in vikings and berserkers - but we have no tradition for going all Sieg Heil over silly symbols, much less in praise of whatever dubious agenda that "the power elite" is harbouring. Hence, being a soldier mostly means that you will receive basic weapons and tactics training for the purpose of national defence so that you're prepared for the nowadays unlikely event of a foreign military invasion. There is strong political dissent over Nowegian soldiers taking part in operations abroad, even the UN controlled ones. Personally, I don't see how anyone can justify, say, the act of going to Afganistan to kill Afghan people. What are the Afghans supposed to think about that? Most likely they will think exactly the same as Norwegians were thinking when the Germans came here and took over things in the years 1940-45.

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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atheist6in6a6foxhole

atheist6in6a6foxhole wrote:

 the definition of what exactly a country is is in the eye of the beholder. for america, C would be the most realistic choice.

just what do you mean by most "realistic"?  i personally think mostly of the land itself, traditional american music, and preserving the history of the common american people.  my america has always been the america of woody guthrie, john steinbeck, greil marcus, eugene debs, studs terkel, henry caudill, carl sandburg, charles bukowski, and howard zinn. 

in fact, "america" has always been an idea too amorphous and semi-mystical to hold any significant attachment for me.  i've always said i'm primarily an eastern kentuckian.  i don't mean that in some bullshit secessionist way, but rather simply that that's where my heart lies.  patriotism means love for the fatherland.  my fatherland is the tobacco fields and green foothills of the appalachians, and whatever political bounderies it may happen to lie in mean dick to me.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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What causes mass hysteria,

What causes mass hysteria, fear, and panic? It is the perception of danger and fear that is the cause. A perception is a sensory or sense impression, or image we create in our own minds. The danger may not be real at all, but illusory. But the perception of danger is what leads to fear, insecurity, and a sense of danger that sets in motion psychological mechanisms.

 

Fear and panic lead to consensual paranoia, a primordial tribal psychological need to find an enemy or a scapegoat that a tribe seeks to destroy. Invariably, the tribe, society, nation, or government seeks to create a bipolar opposition, that is, a division between US and Them, the Tribe against the Enemy/Other, the Good Us against the Evil Them. This is a primal/fundamental psychological need that is an evolutionary vestige from when man was animalistic in evolutionary development. So while a regressive and infantile orientation, it is nevertheless a basic and primary orientation. We create tribal, societal, and national solidarity by delineating our tribe, the Good Tribe from the Other Tribe, the Evil Tribe, the Tribe of Strangers/Foreigners/Aliens whom we know nothing about.

 

Ignorance induces fear, xenophobia, induces a sense or perception of danger, induces paranoia, an imaginary or illusory impression of danger or threat. The need to find an Enemy, the need to create a bipolar opposition, Us versus Them, is a primordial animalistic impulse that goes back to when mankind was in a primitive, tribal state. In primeval times, man perceived the unknown and strangers as dangerous and as a threat. This was an almost unthinking reflex or instinct that was motivated by self-preservation. As man evolved, his reasoning faculty evolved to the point where reasoning overrode this primitive reflex.

 

But governments and political leaders and nations continue to exploit this primitive human psychological orientation to foment war. Aggregations of individuals into crowds, groups, religious groups, nationality and ethnic groups, must be motivated and incited to act. To do this, reason becomes secondary and governments and political leaders resort to the primordial impulses of the herd or tribe or crowd/mob, to a regressive or backward psychological orientation. Fear and insecurity must be engendered in the tribe/clan/nation. Concomitantly to fear and danger and insecurity the impulses of hatred and anger and intolerance are engineered. Governments and political leaders self-induce this irrational fear, paranoia, to advance national objectives. Invariably, a consensual paranoia is fomented and results, creating Outsiders versus Insiders, Us versus Them, the Good versus the Evil, the Free World versus the Communist bloc, “Freedom” versus “the Axis of Evil”, Christians versus Jews versus Muslims versus Hindus. The psychological mechanism is the same/identical in every case, consensual paranoia, a paranoia needed to foment hate, racism, bigotry, intolerance, and war, that is, the killing of others. Reason becomes degraded while a primordial paranoia is self-induced.

 

A perception of danger and of threat leads to intolerance and racism. The perception is what is needed to induce the paranoid orientation needed to kill. The danger or threat may be illusory or imagined, but it is only the sense of danger that is needed, the danger need not be real or present at all. Projection and transference then allow us to project or impute our worst vices onto a chosen enemy or scapegoat. What is the origin of a scapegoat? The term “scapegoat” was coined in 1530 by English religious reformer William Tyndale for a primal worldwide psychological mechanism for expiation of sin and crime. A scapegoat is a group, individual, nation, ethnic group, or religious group upon whom the crimes, sins, mistakes, or guilt of others is placed upon or imputed to. The term is derived from Late Latin caper emissaries, emissary goat, which is a translation of the Hebrew word azazel, name of a desert demon, or ezozel, a goat that escapes or leaves. In Leviticus 16:7-26, the Jewish high priest Aaron confessed the sins of the people of Israel over the head of a goat which was then let loose into the wilderness on the Day of Atonement. Transference or projection whether unto a goat, onto a nation, people, or religious group, or individual, thus serves a psychological function, a primordial and universal function.


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atheist6in6a6foxhole

atheist6in6a6foxhole wrote:

wait, what about soldiers? what did we do to piss you off?

I guess just because some idiots in the military DO worship the state and or their god blindly, that must mean all soldiers are incapable of defending their country from a pragmatic standpoint. I personally don't see anything wrong with going after assholes who slam planes into buildings. Forgive me for wanting someone to protect me. Maybe we shouldn't have cops or firemen either?

But maybe if you gave up your gun people who want to kill us would magically stop wanting to do so.

(I am being sarcastic, I do think that people can worship blindly without question, be it a state or a god, but I think it is utopian to expect a world where governments aren't going to happen)

I don't think you did anything to piss anyone off. I think some people whom have good intent can fall for the same utopia they accuse others of having.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Please keep in mind that I

Please keep in mind that I do agree that governments, politics and religion ALL OVER THE WORLD do use fear and emotion to maintain power.

BUT at the same time I do think it is unrealistic to expect humans not to form social structures. For Darwin's sake we see social structures throughout the animal kingdom. I think it is unreasonable to have an either or attitude which is what we accuse the world of. Life is not black and white and part of our species evolution which I think that we have to accept is that we are social animals and will flock to like minded people.

FACT, governments are going to happen. It is unavoidable. You are not going to have total anarchy nor are you going to want to live under an oppressive government whom doesn't like you.

We as atheists certainly would find it unacceptable if our countries banned us from being open, just as we find it horrible that Jews and Christians have no rights in Iran. I think it is also absurd to think that it is always good for government to provide everything for you. I also think it is absurd to always abandon people because they are poor.

Life is NOT black and white.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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As hard as this may be to

As hard as this may be to believe, I agree completely with Brian37.   He hit the nail square on the head.  Just wnated to say, since this has never happened before.

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Unfortunately we live on a

Unfortunately we live on a tiny little planet with limited resources and a biological imperative to overpopulate the planet. So war is the inevitable result of not implementing rational solutions to this situation. Nationalism and religious fervor are just useful tools to motivate soliders to go to war and civilians to support it. We're all cowards, so they have to use religion to convince soldiers they will live forever.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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A couple of notes:Howard

A couple of notes:

Howard Zinn was a soldier; a bomber pilot. No one, that I have read yet, has outlined the argument concerning american imperialism (aka nationalism) better than he did.

Watch your definitions here or I'll slam your ignorance into the metaphorical walls of the forum. Cute little symbols are only that; they do not carry the ideology the ideology uses them. e.g. Hammer&Sickle does not equal either the ideology of socialism or the proletariat class.

 

I find it humorous that some soldiers have referred to military service as a 'job'.

If soldiering is a 'job' then why couldn't there be unions, bargaining, and strikes?

 

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Andew Basevich is another

Andew Basevich is another who writes some interesting stuff on American Imperialism.  He's a retired Army colonel who now teaches at Boston College, I think.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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darth_josh wrote:the

darth_josh wrote:

the ideology uses them

 

But what is the ideology? Who benefits from it?

I believe we are on a dangerous type of slippery slope when we stop paying attention to the actual reality of our actual life here on earth in favour of some ideological dream about God and Nation. In fact I think of it as bona fide insanity. If a national anthem and a fucking flag means more to you than the dirt and the trees and the creatures that roam the land, you have lost your grip on reality, pure and simple.


 

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Marquis wrote: WTF is the

Marquis wrote:

 WTF is the glory of the Swastika today? Where is the historical importance of the Hammer and the Sicle? 

two symbols which represent atheistic terror regimes, ironically.  


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jmm wrote:Marquis

jmm wrote:

Marquis wrote:

 WTF is the glory of the Swastika today? Where is the historical importance of the Hammer and the Sicle? 

two symbols which represent atheistic terror regimes, ironically.  

 

Can somebody please give this piece of shit a troll title?

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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 eh, if you can't beat 'em,

 eh, if you can't beat 'em, silence 'em.  right?


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jmm wrote:Marquis

jmm wrote:

Marquis wrote:

 WTF is the glory of the Swastika today? Where is the historical importance of the Hammer and the Sicle? 

two symbols which represent atheistic terror regimes, ironically.  

 

Actually, Nazi Germany was a Christian nation.

Might want to check your facts before you start throwing us under that bus.


In any case,  I oppose any oppression of religion because religion won't go away under that kind of circumstance.   You can't legislate religion away like soviet russia tried.    It was stupid and didn't work.    

"Lisa, if the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girls sports, such as hot oil wrestling and foxy boxing and such."
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:I

Nationalism is pretty fucking terrifying.

 

All these people buy "support the troops" magnetic ribbons to slap on their SUVs along with a magnetic american flag, while thinking they are somehow exceptional in the world simply because of where they were born.

 

Almost all of the people I've met that are blatantly nationalistic have NEVER LEFT THE COUNTRY, and have no intention of doing so. I get blank stares if I ask them how they know "USA is #1" in anything if they have never been anywhere else. But apparently USA is #1 in everything, because whenever I ask someone to clarify they just repeat themselves.

 

 

Yeah, the nationalism went out of control with 9/11. Yay for blind control of the masses.

 

I think soldiers in our military should be used to..well...defend their homeland. Not start wars on the other side of the planet for someone's pocketbooks employed in defense contracting. I feel bad because they are being used and thrown away, and I wish that wasn't the case. I watched a meeting with some GOP strategists where they talked about playing the "war" card, as a political strategy to improve standing with conservatives in this country. They were suggesting Obama should start a war. To improve his poll numbers. Yeah. What the fuck is that about.

 

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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:3

jmm wrote:

Marquis wrote:

 WTF is the glory of the Swastika today? Where is the historical importance of the Hammer and the Sicle? 

two symbols which represent atheistic terror regimes, ironically.  

 

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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This is thorny.

 

Applying the geopolitical climate of these times to all time is a mistake. History clearly shows there are moments when national sovereignty must be defended under arms. The western allies did everything to avoid conflict in the late 30s, including betraying Czechoslovakia and Poland. You could argue they were upholding the spirit of the Atlantic Treaty but I think they understandably did not want to fight a ruinous war if they could avoid it. They failed to acknowledge there are times such things cannot and should not be avoided.

Personally I think the Iraq War money should have been invested in solar panels and electric cars but I can't bring myself to denigrate the rank and file soldiers, including their immediate leaders, who serve there. Maybe optional military operations like Iraq and Afghanistan should be a matter for referendum.

Just for the record if my country was invaded in a war of subjugation I would resist. There are other countries with whom I feel a connection that if attacked I would support. Judge me how you will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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darth_josh wrote:I find it

darth_josh wrote:

I find it humorous that some soldiers have referred to military service as a 'job'.

If soldiering is a 'job' then why couldn't there be unions, bargaining, and strikes?

 

Because it is a federal job. If air traffic controller is a job, then why couldn't there be unions, bargaining, and strikes? The federal government has no tolerance for the unionization of its employees. Soldiers just happen to fall under that banner.

And yet, somehow, the federal government hypocritically enforces the NLRA on companies. Now if they'de just let companies legally adopt Regan's policy towards strikers, then this would come off as being a little less cynical on their part.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Atheistextremist wrote:if my

Atheistextremist wrote:

if my country was invaded in a war of subjugation I would resist

 

So would I, without any doubt or hesitation - or even mercy - whatsoever.

I think it is natural and good to love your country, your family and friends, even your local community, its culture, customs and all the memories you have from whichever place it is that you think of as "home" (although these are usually ambiguous). It follows from this that it is also natural to want to defend it against violators in any which way that is necessary.

But I draw the line at getting all sentimental over symbols. Like for instance loving a fucking piece of cloth - a flag - or some hopelessly pompous piece of mediocre music - a national anthem - etc. etc. That's just retarded. If you serve a symbol you are a useful idiot to anyone with a vested interest in manipulating symbol structures for personal gain, i.e. sociopaths. Or, in the vernacular, you are a servant of evil. (Evil here and now defined as the product of psychopathic activity.)


 

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I basically don't think I

I basically don't think I could say it much better than Marquis on this one.
I would fight to defend the USA if it were attacked by any means possible but that doesn't mean I buy into the bumper sticker, magnetic stick on bullshit.

People use the hyper-emotionalism of Nationalism (symbols, songs, etc) to justify what would normally be considered wrong acts.   But if it's done for your country then that's okey dokey.  

"Lisa, if the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girls sports, such as hot oil wrestling and foxy boxing and such."
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I quite agree

Marquis wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

if my country was invaded in a war of subjugation I would resist

So would I, without any doubt or hesitation - or even mercy - whatsoever.

I think it is natural and good to love your country, your family and friends, even your local community, its culture, customs and all the memories you have from whichever place it is that you think of as "home" (although these are usually ambiguous). It follows from this that it is also natural to want to defend it against violators in any which way that is necessary.

But I draw the line at getting all sentimental over symbols. Like for instance loving a fucking piece of cloth - a flag - or some hopelessly pompous piece of mediocre music - a national anthem - etc. etc. That's just retarded. If you serve a symbol you are a useful idiot to anyone with a vested interest in manipulating symbol structures for personal gain, i.e. sociopaths. Or, in the vernacular, you are a servant of evil. (Evil here and now defined as the product of psychopathic activity.)

 

 

Perhaps the thing here is recognition of that form of deception through which a society can bend good men's instinctive mechanisms through the application of fear, tricking us into fighting in defense but in circumstances where a present danger does not exist.

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


darth_josh
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Marquis wrote:darth_josh

Marquis wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

the ideology uses them

 

But what is the ideology? Who benefits from it?

I believe we are on a dangerous type of slippery slope when we stop paying attention to the actual reality of our actual life here on earth in favour of some ideological dream about God and Nation. In fact I think of it as bona fide insanity. If a national anthem and a fucking flag means more to you than the dirt and the trees and the creatures that roam the land, you have lost your grip on reality, pure and simple.

 

 

I agree.

That's a more concise appraisal, Marquis.

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