Theists - Is there any proof of Satan's existence?
Posted on: January 21, 2010 - 9:04pm
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Theists - Is there any proof of Satan's existence?
Theists generally defend the existence, indeed, the necessity of god, using cosmological arguments, ontological arguments and the moral argument, with a sprinkling of teleology/anti-evolutionary theory thrown in. There are others but these are the ones that pop up here most often. All this is well and good. But what about coherent arguments for the existence of Satan? Is there adequate proof Satan really exists? Is there proof outside the bible?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
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and while we are on the subject could someone please enlighten me on why this majestic angel *Satan* all of a sudden was classified as pure evil and nothing more.Is it possible for a being to have just bad traits or just good ones?
All forms of tampering with human beings, getting at them, shaping them against their will to your own pattern, all thought control and conditioning is, therefore, a denial of that in men which makes them men and their values ultimate.
Isaiah Berlin
Supposedly the devil was god's best mate in heaven but after an argument over who got to watch friday night football in the big chair, satan was cast down to earth to have dominion over it - presumably before humans were created because he's in the garden of eden at the very beginning talking parsel tongue to gender scapegoat, eve. It casts a new light on free will, doesn't it? Funny to think we're going to be tormented eternally because of some stupid fight between a pair of spoiled deities who wanted to be more powerful than each other. In fact it's not funny - it's stupidy, stupidy, stupid. Maybe the church fathers should have paid for a proper script writer.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Satan = God = Convenience.
''Black Holes result from God dividing the universe by zero.''
oflmao! You bring me to tears honestly.
All forms of tampering with human beings, getting at them, shaping them against their will to your own pattern, all thought control and conditioning is, therefore, a denial of that in men which makes them men and their values ultimate.
Isaiah Berlin
any of this stuff - it's all straight from the bible. Maybe we simply mistook this book for drama when it was meant to be a zombie comedy.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Ontological argument:
One can imagine an infinitely bad being. Such a being is perfectly evil/malevolent/bad in every way possible. If such a being did not exist, then it wouldn't be evil or bad at all. Fantasy beings aren't limitlessly bad; they are just plain old not real. Therefore such a limitlessly bad being would have to be real in order to be the perfect embodiment of malevolence. And for some inexplicable reason, being able to imagine something with a maximum amount of some trait automatically makes it logically necessary. So therefore a flawlessly bad being must exist. That being is known as the Devil or as Satan to most people in the West.
Any arguments against this that aren't just arguments against the ontological argument for God?
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
I seem to remember having a conversation on this subject at some point when I was younger. I don't even remember who it was I happened to be discussing it with, but I do remember him/her saying that Satan is NOT the complete opposite of God because God is everything good, including existence itself??? therefore if Satan were entirely and purely bad, he wouldn't exist at all. At least that's the general concept I gathered from it.
Don't know if that really helps the argument that Satan exists, but it did tease my brain for a while. Thought I'd share.
Given what Gallows has raised about the Satan non-existence factor - where do you theists think Satan exists? Does he exist outside this universe as well as inside it in the same way god is meant to be doing? If Satan used to be in heaven (which must be in another perfect universe) with god, picking blackberries and riding bmx bikes for all of this universe's pre-existence, you have to ask yourself did god create satan for his entertainment purposes but find it didn't work out having a near equal? Maybe fighting with Satan over the TV guide became dull, so when it came time to create new friends, god turned to raising sea monkeys in a shiny new universe he made especially for the purpose - Satan being cast down into it (hopefully with a breathing apparatus) and then given dominion over it once eve had experienced her vegan epiphany. I get it now. Cross because he and his best friend were having a classic grade school boy-breakup, god decided to manufacture new friends who would love him forever, or else.
Now - that makes the sort of sense I was talking about.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
And when that argument is applied to satan it's even sillier than when it's applied to god. Excuse me ladies but the ontological argument for god sucks dead dogs' cocks.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
On earth. Right now. According to some interpretations, he is the king of the earth.
Copy+Paste some relevant verses:
"The Lord said to Satan, "Whence have you come?" Satan answered The Lord, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it." (Job 1:7 RSV)
"The god of this age (the Devil) has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." 2 Corinthians 4:4
Revelation12:9: So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."
1 John 5:19: "We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one."
On an occasion when Jesus was tempted by the Devil, Jesus did not question Satan's role as the ruler of this world. The Bible explains what happened: "The Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him: 'All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.'
Also, it is only Christians that believe that Satan is God's enemy. The Jews believe that Satan is God's accuser. Satan isn't evil to them; in the same sense that a state prosecutor isn't evil. A prosecutor is just acting on behalf of the state to seek out guilt.
Satan and Samael are malevolent towards humans and perfectly loyal to God. For some reason Christians have imagined that Satan is evil and opposes God. I have no idea where they got that from. I guess that people just like a good versus evil story.
But for the sake of this discussion, I suppose we are only using the "Satan is God's enemy and out to harm humans" idea.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
garden of eden satan I grew up with - these other interpretations and understandings are another thing. The NT is saying then, that satan is a powerful evil dragon, presumably invisible, whose role is to mislead the inhabitants of the earth into believing there is no invisible god. You'd have your work cut out for you as an invisible demon in trying to convince people there was no invisible god, I would have thought. What a shame there was no skit on that in The Life of Brian. I guess satan is actually doubting thomas at a core level. The greatest sin in the world is to doubt - not to do others wrong - not to fail in your duty of loving and caring for others. Satan is just disbelief - it's classic cult material.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
An utter failure as a killer. He only killed 10 people in the Job story? What the heck is that? Nothing compared to God's mass killings.
He is hardly terrifying or even remotely scary when we look at the bible's list of all the slain. Many different christian sects see him in different ways, and the fundamentalists see him around every corner nook and cranny. They may even think of him more often than they do of God. It seems that way.
and those 10 were killed with God's permission so he could win a bet.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Testimony is sometimes considered to be evidence.
The reason why there is an idea of rebellious & evil Satan, is the concept of involution, preceding evolution. According to Theosophists, all life originally and gradually descended from the highest spiritual dimension, into the most dense spiritual dimension, this one. This process of getting involved with matter is referred to as "the fall", but it was rather again a kind of sacrifice for the sake of development. The same it was with so-called "banishment from paradise" and "original sin", which is no sin at all. The reason why involution was so denigrated and slandered, is because there is a danger to beings that are already evolving spiritually on the evolution arc. (humans, for example) When forces of involution (that otherwise take care of upholding the planet) start to play with humanity (and they really love it) then the result is called evil. Involutionary forces always make a big mess on the evolutionary arc, like emperor Nero's rampage or World War 1 and 2. Therefore, forces of involution should be eventually strictly kept to taking care of planetary fires, natural ecosystem, and such a material tasks. Note, that Lucifer is not an involutionary being.
So Theosophists and similar traditions say. Gives a perfect sense, eh?
As for the eternal torment, that is what the emperor Justinian pushed upon church fathers, because he found that doctrine more politically useful. Otherwise, there was the doctrine of reincarnation, which is just like Theosophists say. Also, there's no Hell, just Purgatory, according to them (and Catholics, if I remember).
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Prometheus and bringing fire to humanity - steal what you can from ancient mythology and call it your own.
Ignorance = good
knowledge = bad
Using your brain prevents you from advancing spiritually? Sorry, don't buy it.
Fear always works to manipulate people. Look at GW and company. There was a study - people where presented with the facts. They all agreed with the facts. The SAME people were presented with the fearful side of the situation. They then rejected the facts. Justinian was right - fear is a great way to manipulate people and prevent them from remembering the truth. Don't be manipulated, refuse to give in to your fears, and stick with facts.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
FUCKIN' A!!!!!
i think it's fair to point out that not all theists believe in satan, though pretty much all christians and muslims do. jews are divided on the subject. so it's not really appropriate to address the question to "theists."
also, we owe the mythology of lucifer's fall more to milton than to the bible. the passages about "lucifer" and him having once been a heavenly being can be found in one of the major prophets (i can't remember which and i don't consider it important enough to look up). judging from the context, this most likely refers to the king of babylon, perhaps nebuchadnezzar (once again, can't remember for sure), not any sort of spiritual incarnation of evil.
said passage was later taken for granted by christians (and perhaps even some schools of rabbinic judaism and/or apocalyptic sects) to refer to what is basically our modern idea of satan, a being whose origin is probably more persian than semitic. this was particularly embellished upon by the writer of revelation.
as far as the hebrew bible goes, outside the book of job satan doesn't really make an appearance at all, and there he is depicted as a tolerated and perhaps even necessary foil to mankind's piety: a trickster in the service of god, whom later rabbis were probably more likely to have seen as a manisfestation of the etzer ha-ra (the "evil impulse," present in both god and man), rather than a malevolent enemy of god. we must remember that the serpent in the garden of eden is never identified by the j source as being anything other than a serpent.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
My girlfriend is Iranian. She's definitely more Satanic than she's Jewish.
But seriously... how much of Ahriman got carried into Christianity? I think quite a lot. Those were confused times.
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)
http://www.kinkspace.com
pardon my saying so, but she sounds really fucking hot. iranian and satanic--jeeesus.....
so she's an iranian jew? that must be rough. did her family have to run from the revolutionary guards?
oh i'd wager a lot. a lot of persian stuff certainly got carried into judaism. aramaic is about as much persian as it is hebrew.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
No pardon needed. You are stating the bloody obvious.
But that's not the point here.
I am of the mind that what is today called Christianity isn't even anything alike what was Christianity in, say, the years 2-300. From what I understand of the local history of the place, there were multiple sects like that wandering around. (The California of their times?) It's almost offensive to discuss actual Christian Church history with the self-professed Christians, because they will simply flat-out deny their own origins - and then proceed to refer to a collection of scriptures that were assembled upon Roman imperial command. It's fucking hysterical! Or, rather, it would be funny if they weren't insane. I think it more than a little bit scary that people who are clearly suffering from paranoid schizophrenia - whether by disease or self inflicted - are that close to the nuke button.
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)
http://www.kinkspace.com
we all know the devil is real becuase the bible says so