EXC's guide to morality, civilized society, and freemarket libertarianism
Offline So i had just had an epiphany... and it subsequently led to me discovering "EXC's guide to morality, civilized society, and freemarket libertarianism"
aka "The Rules of Acquisition"
(If you didnt get the joke already, stop reading... actually, even if you did, you may want to stop reading o_O )
1. Once you have their money, never give it back
2. You can't cheat an honest customer, but it never hurts to try
3. Never spend more for an acquisition than you have to
4. Sex and profit are the two things that never last long enough
5. If you can't break a contract, bend it
6. Never let family stand in the way of opportunity
7. Always keep you ears open
8. Keep count of your change
9. Instinct plus opportunity equals profit
10. A dead customer can't buy as much as a live one
11. Latinum isn't the only thing that shines
12. Anything worth selling is worth selling twice
13. Anything worth doing is worth doing for money
14. Anything stolen is pure profit
15. Acting stupid is often smart
16. A deal is a deal ... until a better one comes along
17. A bargain usually isn't
18. A Ferengi without profit is no Ferengi at all
19. Don't lie too soon after a promotion
20. When the customer is sweating, turn up the heat
21. Never place friend ship before profit
22. wise men can hear profit in the wind
23. Never take the last coin, but be sure to get the rest
24. Never ask when you can take
25. Fear makes a good business partner
26. The vast Majority of the rich in this galaxy did not inherit their wealth; they stole it
27. The most beautiful thing about a tree is what you do with it after you cut it down
28. Morality is always defined by those in power
29. When someone says "It's not the money," they're lying
30. Talk is cheap; synthehol costs money
31. Never make fun of a Ferengi's mother
32. Be careful what you sell. It may do exactly what the customer expects
33. It never hurts to suck up to the boss
34. Too many Ferengi can't laugh at themselves anymore
35. Peace is good for business
36. War is good for business
37. You can always buy back a lost reputation
38. Free advertising is cheap
39. Praise is cheap. Heap it generously on all customers
40. If you see profit on a journey, take it
41. Money talks, but having a lots of it gets more attention
42. Only negotiate when you are certain to profit
43. Caressing an ear is often more forceful than pointing a weapon
44. Never argue with a loaded phaser
45. profit has limits. Loss has none
46. Labor camps are full of people who trusted the wrong person
47. Never trust a man wearing a better suit than you own
48. The bigger the smile, the sharper the knife
49. Old age and greed will always overcome youth and talent
50. Never bluff a Klingon
51. Never admit a mistake if there's someone else to blame
52. Only Bugsy could have built Las Vegas
53. Sell first; ask questions later
54. Never buy anything you can't sell
55. Always sell at the highest possible profit
56. Pursue profit; women come later
57. Good customers are almost as rare as Latinum - treasure them
58. Friendship is seldom cheap
59. Fee advice is never cheap
60. Never use Latinum where your words will do
61. Never buy what can be stolen
62. The riskier the road, the greater the profit
63. power without profit is like a ship without an engine
64. Don't talk shop; talk shopping
65. Don't talk ship; talk shipping
66. Anyone serving in a fleet who is crazy can be relieved, if they ask for it
67. Enough is never enough
68. Compassion is no substitute for a profit
69. You could afford your ship without your government - if it weren't for your government
70. Get the money first, then let the buyers worry about collecting the merchandise
71. Gamble and trade have two things in common: risk and Latinum
72. Never let the competition know, what you're thinking
73. Never trust advice from a dying Ferengi; listen but don't trust
74. A Ferengi without profit is no Ferengi at all
75. Home is where the heart is, but the stars are made of Latinum
76. Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies
77. Go where no Ferengi has gone before; where there is no reputation there is profit
78. There is a customer born every minute
79. Beware of the Vulcan greed for knowledge
80. If it works, sell it. If it works well, sell it for more. If it doesn't work, quadruple the price and sell it as an antique
81. There's nothing more dangerous than an honest businessman
82. A smart customer is not a good customer
83. Revenge is profitless
84. She can touch your ears but never your Latinum
85. Death takes no bribes
86. A wife is a luxury, a smart accountant a necessity
87. Trust is the biggest liability of all
88. When the boss comes to dinner, it never hurts to have the wife wear something
89. Latinum lasts longer than lust
90. Mine is better than ours
91. He who drinks fast pays slow
92. Never confuse wisdom with luck
93. He's a fool who makes his doctor his heir
94. Beware of small expenses: a small leak will kill a ship
95. Important, more impotant, Latinum
96. Faith moves mountains - of inventory
97. If you would keep a secret from an enemy, don't tell it to a friend
98. Profit is the better part of valor
99. Never trust a wise man
100. Everything that has no owner, needs one
101. Never do something you can make someone do for you
102. Nature decays, but Latinum lasts forever
103. Sleep can interfere with opportunity
104. Money is never made. It is merely won or lost
105. Wise men don't lie, they just bend the truth
106. There is no honor in poverty
107. Win or lose, there's always Huyperian Beetle Snuff
108. A woman wearing clothes is like a man without profit
109. Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack
110. Only a fool passes up a business opportunity
111. Treat people in your debt like family ... exploit them
112. Never sleep with the boss's wife unless you pay him first
113. Never sleep with the boss's sister
114. Small print lead to large risk
115. Greed is eternal
116. There's always a way out
117. If the profit seems too good to be true, it usually is
118. Never cheat a honest man offering a decent price
119. Buy, sell, or get out of the way
120. Even a blind man can recognize the glow of Latinum
121. Everything is for sale, even friendship
122. As the customers go, so goes the wise profiteer
123. A friend is only a friend until you sell him something. Then he is a customer
124. Friendship is temporary, profit is forever
125. A lie isn't a lie until someone else knows the truth
126. A lie isn't a lie, it's just the truth seen from a different point of view
127. Gratitude can bring on generosity
128. Ferengi are not responsible for the stupidity of other races
129. Never trust your customers
130. Never trust a beneficiary
131. If it gets you profit, sell your own mother
132. The flimsier the produce, the higher the price
133. Never judge a customer by the size of his wallet ... sometimes good things come in small packages
134. There's always a catch
135. The only value of a collectible is what you can get somebody else to pay for it
136. The sharp knife cuts quickly. Act without delay!
137. Necessity is the mother of invention. Profit is the father
138. Law makes everyone equal, but justice goes to the highest bidder
139. Wives serve; brother inherit
140. The answer to quick and easy profit is: buy for less, sell for more
141. Competition and fair play are mutually exclusive. Fait play and financial loss go hand-in-hand
142. A Ferengi waits to bid until his opponents have exhausted themselves
143. The family of Fools is ancient
144. There's nothing wrong with charity ... as long as it winds up in your pocket
145. Always ask for the costs first
146. If possible sell neither the sizzle nor the steak, but the Elphasian wheat germ
147. New customers are like razor toothed gree worms. They can be succulent, but sometimes they bite back
148. Opportunity waits for no one
149. Females and finances don't mix
150. Make your shop easy to find
151. Sometimes, what you get free costs entirely too much
152. Ask not what your profits can do for you; ask what you can do for your profits
153. You can't free a fish from water
154. The difference between manure and Latinum is commerece
155. What's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine too
156. Even in the worst of times someone turns a profit
157. You are surrounded by opportunities; you just have to know where to look
158. Don't pay until you have the goods
159. The customer is always right ... until you have their cash
160. Respect is good, Latinum is better
161. Never kill a customer, unless you make more profit out of his death than out of his life
162. His money is only your's when he can't get it back
163. A thirsty customer is good for profit, a drunk one isn't
164. Never spend your own money when you can spend someone else's
165. Never allow one's culture's law to get in the way of a universal goal: profit
166. Never give away for free what can be sold
167. If a deal is fairly and lawfully made, then seeking revenge especially unprofitable revenge, is illegal
168. Beware of relatives bearing gifts
169. If you're going to have to endure, make yourself comfortable
170. Never gamble with an empath
171. Time is Latinum. The early Ferengi get the Latinum
172. If you can sell it, don't hsitate to steal it
173. A piece of Latinum in the hand is worth two in a customer's pocket
174. Share and perish
175. When everything fails - run
176. Ferengi's don't give promotional gifts!
177. Know your enemies ... but do business with them always
178. The world is a stage - don't forget to demand admission
179. Whenever you think that things can't get worse, the FCA will be knocking on you door
180. Never offer a confession when a bribe will do
181. Even dishonesty can't tarnish the glow of Latinum
182. Whenever you're being asked if you are god, the right answer is YES
183. Genius without opportunity is like Latinum in the mine
184. There are three things you must not talk to aliens: sex, religion and taxes
185. If you want to ruin yourself there are three known ways: Gambling is the fastest, women are the sweetest, and banks are the most reliable way
186. There are two things that will catch up with you for sure: death and taxes
187. If your dancing partner wants to lead at all costs, let her have her own way and ask another one to dance
188. Never bet on a race you haven't fixed
189. Borrow on a handshake; lend in writing
190. Drive your business or it will drive you
191. Let other keep their reputation. You keep their money
192. If the flushing isn't strong enough, use your brain and try the brush
193. Klingon women don't dance tango
194. It's always good business to know about new customers before they walk in your door
195. Wounds heal, but debt is forever
196. Only give money to people you know you can steal from
197. Never trust your customers, especially if they are your relatives
198. Employees are the rungs on your ladder to success - don't hesitate to step on them
199. The secret of one person is another person's opportunity
200. A madman with Latinum means profit without return
201. The justification for profit is profit
202. a) A friend in need is a customer in the making
b) A friend in need means three times the profit
203. A Ferengi in need, will never do anything for free
204. When the Grand Nagus arrives to offer you a business opportunity, it's time to leave town until he's gone
205. When the customer dies, the money stops a-comin'
206. Fighting with Klingons is like gambling with Cardassians - it's good to have a friend around when you lose
207. Never trust a hardworking employee
208. Give someone a fish, you feed him for one day. Teach him how to fish, and you lose a steady customer
209. Tell them what they want to hear
210. A wife, who is able to clean, saves the cleaning lady
211. In business deals, a disruptor can be almost as important as a calculator
212. If they accept your first offer, you either asked too little or offered too much
213. Stay neutral in conflicts so that you can sell supplies to both sides
214. Never begin a business transaction on an empty stomach
215. Instinct without opportunity is useless
216. Never take hospitality from someone worse off than yourself
217. Only pay for it, if you are confronted with loaded phaser
218. Always know what you're buying
219. A friend is not a friend if he asks for a discount
220. Profit is like a bed of roses - a few thorns are inevitable
221. Beware of any man who thinks with his lobes
222. Knowledge is Latinum
223. Rich men don't come to buy; they come to take
224. Never throw anything away: It may be worht a lot of Latinum some Stardate
225. Pride comes before a loss
226. Don't take your family for granted, only their Latinum
227. Loyalty can be bought ... and sold
228. All things come to those who wait, even Latinum
229. Beware the man who doesn't make time for oo-mox
230. Manipulation may be a Ferengi's greatest tool, and liability
231. If you steal it, make sure it has a warranty
232. Life's no fair (How else would you turn a profit?)
233. Every dark cloud has a Latinum lining
234. Never deal with beggars; it's bad for profits
235. Don't trust anyone who trusts you
236. You can't buy fate
237. There's a sucker born every minute. Be sure you're the first to find each one
238. The truth will cost
239. Ambition knows no family
240. The higher you bid, the more customers you drive away
241. Never underestimate the inportance of the fist impression
242. More is good, all is better
243. If you got something nice to say, then SHOUT
244. If you can't sell it, sit on it, but never give it away
245. A warranty is valid only if they can find you
246. He that speaks ill of the wares will buy them
247. Never question luck
248. Celebrate when you are paid, not, when you are promised
249. Respect other culture's beliefs; they'll be more likely to give you money
250. A dead vendor doesn't demand money
251. Satisfaction is not guaranteed
252. Let the buyer beware
253. A contract without fine print is a fool's document
254. Anyone who can't tell a fake doesn't deserve the real thing
255. A warranty without loop-holes is a liability
256. Synthehol is the lubricant of choice for a customer's stuck purse
257. Only fools negotiate with their own money
258. A Ferengi is only as important as the amount of Latinum he carries in his pockets
259. A lie is a way to tell the truth to someone who doesn't know
260. Gambling is like the way to power: The only way to win is to cheat, but don't get caught in the process
261. A wealthy man can afford everything except a conscience
262. No lobes, no profit
263. Never let a female in clothes cloud your sense of profit
264. It's not the size of your planet, but it's income, that matters
265. The fear of loss may be your greatest enemy or your best friend - choose wisely
266. A pair of good ears will ring dry a hundred tongues
267. Wish not so much to live Long, as to live well
268. a) When in doubt, lie
b) When in doubt, buy
c) When in doubt, demand more money
d) When in doubt, shoot them, take their money, run and blame someone else
269. Never purchase anything that has been promised to be valuable or go up in value
270. It's better to have gambled and lost than to never have gambled at all
271. There's many witty men whose brains can't line their pockets
272. The way to a Ferengi's heart is through his wallet
273. Always count their Latinum before selling anything
274. There is no profit in love; however, a strong heart is worth a few bars of Latinum on the open market. Keep it on ice
275. Latinum can't buy happiness, but you can sure have a blast renting it
276. If at first you don't succeed, try to acquire again
277. Diamonds may be girl's best friend, but you can only buy the girl with Latinum
278. It's better to swallow your pride than to lose your profit
279. Never close a deal too soon after a female strokes your lobes
280. An empty bag can not stand upright
281. Blood is thicker than water, but harder to sell
282. Business is like war; it's important to recognize the winner
283. Rules are always subject to change
284. Rules are always subject to interpretation
285. No good deed ever goes unpunished
286. When Morn leaves it is all over
What Would Kharn Do?
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Is this a debate between you and EXC?
Okay... the headache comes not so much from reading through all those rather obvious advices for running a healthy business as trying to expand my stereotypes from the simple dichotomous oxymoronisms I am used to... to accepting that there can be THREE mutually hostile phenomenons within one and the same collision of phenomenae; such as the ones that are mentioned. Any two of them will mutually exclude the other... but all three together seems strangely stable... like quarks in a proton?
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)
http://www.kinkspace.com
Doomy the next time you get an epiphany, try a little penicilian, it should clear up in a couple of days or so. And remember to stay out of those places unless you have real protection.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
It's been some time since I watched Star Trek, but that looks suspiciously like the Rules of Aquisition...
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I'd love to see Doomy and EXC debate morality
... second sentence down...
What Would Kharn Do?
That... would most certainly be interesting, but im not certain how it would even work
What Would Kharn Do?
how about a tl;dr version?
Ah yes. I must have skipped over that.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
the ferengi are a fine people
Omg, that would be the most entertaining debate ever.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
You would win. Anyone who clings so desperately to the capitalist model like EXC does is without morals.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
Doomy; LETS KILL BABIES!
EXC; ... and sell them on EBAY!
I dont think theres a clear winner...
What Would Kharn Do?
Define kill? Do you mean abortions? And are you talking about slow and excruciating deaths similar to what capitalism imposes on billions of people around the world?
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
Everyone is without morals. It's a complete BS concept. What have you ever done that doesn't demonstrate you're a completely self centered being?
In fact you love socialism because it allows you to feel compassionate without and sacrifice. It allows you take other people's wealth without any punishment. Socialism is a hedonists dream, survival and comfort with any work or sacrifice. So your love of getting something for nothing of compassion without sacrifice only proves how amoral you really are.
The debate about morality we could have is me proving you're a bunch of self-serving bastards that continually lie to yourselves about being otherwise. I'm an unabashed hedonist, you're all living out this delusion of moral superiority.
"Morality is herd instict in the individual" Nietzsche
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Socialism: stealing from the rich to feed the poor.
Libertarianism: stealing from the poor to enrich the rich.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Socialism: stealing from the productive to enrich politicians, and the politically connected.
Libertarianism: Stealing the earth's natural resources to enrich yourself.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
I'm with nigel on this with the exception that both of these assume the originating circumstances were fair in the first place. If someone owns all the food that is available to you, they can dictate the price of that food and have you at a disadvantage. This is true for every commodity.
In the same fashion the monopolies and oligopolies the free market creates cause this unfair situation by it's very nature. Which is why some kind of regulation, or balance, is needed. Without that it is the have's holding the have-nots at perpetual gunpoint, as EXC likes to say. Otherwise it is a reversion to feudalism.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
Only true for commodities that are natural resources or depend on natural resources for their production. If someone owns all the land and water they can created these monopolies of food. However, monopolies of technology(e.g. software) do not last. That is why wealth generated via use of natural resources needs to be treated differently than wealth produced through work, investment and innovation.
If you tax food growers according to how much land and water they use, you get efficiency of their use. But socialists want to tax the engineer and company that develops technology to grow food with less land and water at a very high rates to pay for people's healthcare and food stamps for doing nothing.
Oh, like the labor unions, government workers, politicians and the political parties? Because those are the only entities that are legally allowed to operate as monopolies and keep out the competition.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
While I am not a strict socialist (I do believe regulated capitalism is the best economic system, coupled with limited socialism -- basically, anything that benefits society, such as a road system, health care system, etc), I believe you are incorrect if you assume those who are getting rich aren't doing so at the expense of those with less social or economic power. If that were not so, then Wal*Mart employees would make a decent wage, rather than a wage that doesn't allow them to live even while shopping at Wal*Mart.
The problem with all economic systems is simple: those who control the money control the economy. That's it. Microsoft has set the computer industry back over a decade because they had the economic clout to viciously control the market. (IBM did the same thing forty years ago.) Wal*Mart is able to destroy the profits of its suppliers in an effort to maximize its own profits. And so on. Those with economic power are able to regulate the industry, and they are completely unaccountable.
Further, they are able to maintain their economic status due to the stability of society. They partake of the benefits of society. They get more from society than someone who is poor. So why should they not be required to help sustain society?
Basically, libertarianism moves political and social power from the government to industrialists. In a well-managed democratic government*, the government would be responsible to the people. In any libertarian society, the corporations are not responsible to the people in any way. There is no invisible hand to keep them in check. That's just as much hogwash as an invisible god, used to keep people from asking too many questions, keep them from demanding too much accountability. The invisible hand, like the cake, is a lie.
I've seen too many companies in mostly-unregulated sectors get away with too much to ever believe in the invisible hand. It's a nice myth, pleasant to think about, but really, it's just a myth that describes what an ideal might look like, if people in power didn't abuse their power to maintain and increase power.
And finally, there's that stickler about "earth's natural resources." Who gets to decide who gets those resources? It sure ain't the poor. It's not even the middle class. It's the top 5%, which controls over 80% of the wealth, those with real economic or political power. Do you imagine they're going to give the poor the same rights to access as they are going to give themselves?
There's a huge difference between "liberty" and "freedom." Warren Buffet and I have the same liberties, but he has far more freedom than I do. An ideal libertarian society is predicated by equal freedom, not equal liberty, which will not happen. Not in our lifetimes. The tragedy of the commons pretty much guarantees it.
* Yes, I know there's no such thing as a well-managed government. It's easier to influence a democratic government than it is an unfettered corporation, though. Of course, then there's the problem with the rule of the least-common-denominator.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
So... your a socialist? or you wish you were?
"Socialism is a hedonists dream"
"I'm an unabashed hedonist"
Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.
Oh FFS....
Believeing in riches as magic principle is like believing in gods.
Think about it. How many hours are there in a year?
My calculator has gone wonky but I think, upon quick calculation, that it is 8,760. That's all the time you've got. How are you going to play that if, say, you wanted to make a million dollars a year? You'd have to work around the clock at about 105 dollars or so an hour. Which is a handsome hourly wage - but it is also the reason why you will never get rich through any other means than that of finding a way to tax other people's activities.
So... this means extorsion, of course. Tell the suckers that you can protect them! Fuck them up if they don't believe you. Give them a flag and some shiny things to hold on to. The more people you fuck up, the more people will believe in you. Whatever you tell them will serve as "the truth".
Tax them every time they take a dump by manufacturing and selling toilet paper.
Tax them every time they eat by manufacturing and selling milk, butter, meats, vegetables and sauces.
Tax them every time they go anywhere by selling them petrol (gasoline).
Tax them for speaking to eachother by selling them air wave time on telephones.
Tax them for wanting to forget about all this by making them pay for TV.
Tax them for dying by making their grieving relatives collect cash for a proper burial.
Tax their income and all that they own so that you can have an army and a navy that can go to other countries and fuck them up.
Then make all taxes available to private citizens of no scruples. This is called efficiency.
The less morals you have, the beter you will fare in the extorsionist economy. Praise the Lord!
At least it isn't something evil... such as socialism.
"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)
http://www.kinkspace.com
I never said I wasn't self serving. The difference between you and I though, is that I support a system that is more equitable by orders of magnitude. Yes, my needs will be met, but so will the needs of millions of overworked and underpaid Americans. On the other hand, you support a system in which a small group of people enjoy comfort far beyond what is necessary while many of their employees and customer base constantly live one catastrophic moment away from ruin and many more don't even know what it's like to get to live on that edge, spending most of their lives at the bottom of the pile.
Yes, I want a system that benefits me, but only if it's fair.
"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon
Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.
I agree in regulating capitalism to the extend they are not allowed to commit fraud or buy up and monopolize natural resources. I don't think you can come up with a rational justification for any more.
If it is so easy for WalMart or Aetna to make money 'exploiting' workers, why don't more capitalist create a competing business until every unemployed person finds a job being 'exploited'? The fundamental problem is limited natural resources and human overpopulation. Even if socialism could make things 'fair', human population would increase to a level where misery limits any more growth.
Right, but if you have a good business plan, you can get a loan. The socialists here keep telling me how massive the health insurance companies profits are but the don't just go to a bank and get a loan to start a competing business that has the coverage rules they want, Why? Every business starts from zero, so this is just lame excuses. If there is a better way, they free market can find a way to make it happen. But what they want isn't about a better economic model, it's about theft.
When IBM and Microsoft had a monopoly, it didn't last. By the time the government pressed it case and the appeals were heard, these monopolies no longer existed. Just a bunch of lawyers got rich. We got the Dell, Compaq, etc... in response to IBMs domination. Then we got Linux in response to Microsofts monopoly. In a free market, monopolies are not going to last except when we allow people to monopolize natural resources.
And why don't you complain about the monopoly created by labor unions and government workers?
Isn't Target and Costco able to do the same? Can't the suppliers sell direct to the consumer now via the Internet? If the suppliers make huge profits, doesn't that just get passed on to the consumer, many of whom are poor and lower middle class?
Some things the rich buy are zero sum(natural resources), others are not. If a rich person buy a huge plot of land, that resource is no longer available to others. If they build a yacht out of renewable materials, it is not zero sum. We have pleanty of laborers available to build things. So if someone builds a yacht it doesn't necessary deprive someone else of anything. In fact it often provides someone with a job they wouldn't otherwise have.
This is where people's attitudes have to change. Libertarians and conservatives decry welfare for being wealth without work. But ownership and so-called rights to natural resources amounts to wealth without work, welfare for the rich. Taking advantage of a commodity with limited supply that we all depend on for our survival. It needs to be treated as a privilege. So you have access, you must pay for this privilege. And this is how to finance education and rehabilitation programs that work.
When does Warren Buffet's wealth ever negatively impact you? If he buys up a bunch of land and puts up a no trespassing sign, this makes this resource unavailable to you. Or he could invest in new businesses, thus reducing the unemployed and creating a product you would want to have. But the socialists just want to tax him just for having wealth, not for what he does with the wealth.
And if we decided he needs to be taxed at 80% or more, would he have even been an investor in the first place? So then this tax revenue is not available in any case.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Sorry, not much time at the moment. I'll try to get back to this, as I find these conversations interesting. At least, with you they are interesting. Many other libertarians make them tedious and painful. I appreciate your intelligence and even-temper. Anyway, there are a couple of things I wanted to point out.
Many companies do exploit their workers to the extent of Wal*Mart. My point is, companies can and do exploit their workers. It's just that Wal*Mart is one of the biggest companies in the world, and they don't pay their employees a living wage. This is how large corporations have much more economic clout than the actual workers.
There's no way in hell I could get a loan to start an insurance company. There's no way you could, either. There's a start-up cost that is impossible to overcome, unless you already have money. This is true of hospitals, credit card companies, and even just a local supermarket. I doubt I could even get a loan to start up a restaurant, let alone start a chain like McDonald's.
Warren Buffet sure could, though.
IBM's monopoly didn't last because of government intervention. The fact of the anti-trust case against IBM altered public perception of IBM. Also, it wasn't Dell or Compaq that ruined IBM's monopoly. This was long before IBM got in the PC game. IBM was a johnny-come-lately to the PC market, well after the Apple ][ started finding its way into corporate offices. (This was paralleled by Microsoft's late entry into the internet, though they turned around in time to force their way into it.)
Microsoft still has a monopoly, though it is finally crumbling. The end is in sight, and maybe they can stop fucking up the industry.
I'd like to point out that the Microsoft foe you mentioned, Linux, had to be created in a communist-like fashion. It had to be created from the ground up by volunteers. The only credible capitalist competitor to Microsoft has been Apple, and it seems that Microsoft has avoided destroying Apple (even to the point of loaning them millions of dollars to help them stay afloat). What happened to DR DOS? Microsoft used its superior market position to destroy it. What happened to BeOS? Microsoft used its superior market position to destroy it. What happened to OS/2? IBM fucked up the marketing so badly, it felt like they were intentionally stabbing it in the back.
What happened to the ODF push? It suffered a great setback when Microsoft used its market clout to push OOXML through IEEE and ISO standards body (showing that a single corporation can even warp consortium standards bodies).
Money isn't everything, of course. Microsoft has still failed to produce an MP3 device worth a damn, and Apple really has the market wrapped up on that one (though is not in a monopoly position, mostly due to the fact that MP3 is essentially an open, though encumbered, standard).
Linux has been around for 18 years. No other OS company could survive 18 years while suffering from poor market share. The only reason Linux has survived is because it is essentially a public trust. Like socialism. Like communism. Very much not like capitalism.
Actually, I do complain about labor unions. They were started for a good cause (so that producers could take some control out of the hands of the corporations, and workers could make a living wage). Now they are just as bad as the corporations they fight against. The workers are caught between the two, and are usually the losers. (Though unions sometimes come through for workers. Corporations seldom do.)
Anyway, I apologize for not addressing everything EXC. I'll try to come back to this later, but I make no promises. I just wanted to respond to the IBM/Microsoft stuff, since that is really were I'm most knowledgeable, and most of my experiences is rooted.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Because of....?
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
weeeeee
Double post.
And the problem is an oversupply of unskilled labor. Why? A limited supply of natural resources while humans still breed like wild animals. We breed until human misery is the only restraining force. So if you force corporation to pay more for workers, they hire less and pass the costs onto consumers. It doesn't come out of the bottom line because there must be a profit comparable to the risk in starting and running the business.
So the only way out is worker training to increase their value in market and mandatory birth control. Malthus rules until we do this.
I disagree. All the socialist here have to do is post an add on a leftist web site saying "Screw the insurance companies, let's start a coop for insurance". Just get about 100 people to agree to pay each others medical bill. Everyone's covered, no pre-existing conditions, you can't be dropped. So no corporation would make any profit, all the money that comes in goes to medical bills. So they'd have their socialized medicine. Farmers start health insurance coops all the time.
They don't do this because they don't want to pay the high expense of good medical coverage. They want to shake down other people. The want something for nothing. The government has men with guns that can take wealth from people so that's why they got to do it that way.
Some would say they provided a standardization to an infant industry, otherwise there would have been complete chaos. With their monopoly, we might have to buy 5 different OSs to run all the software we want. Kind of like the model T was to cars, it wasn't great but at least it was accessible to everyone. But in the free market, people invented better ways to get around it.
Not at all. Communism is all about putting a gun to people's heads to force them to do what the powerful want.
That's my point if something is rational and makes sense, why do we need to go around having men with guns force it on people?
It always works this way, you become what you hate. The unions became as corrupt as the corporations they fight against. One political party becomes as bad as the one it replaces. The communist party bosses become the new bourgeoisie. The socialists steal because that's what the capitalists do.
In the long run the unions don't do jack. They shook down the auto industry with irrational pay and pensions benefits. All they did was bankrupt the auto companies.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Well ignorance is bliss, so I probably would be happier living out a life of delusion. But I don't have the ability force myself to believe something that seems so obviously illogical. Or perhaps living out a life of delusion doesn't bring me any continuous pleasure as it obviously does our religious and socialist compadres.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
How about it Doomy? You want to tell us what you've ever done or an opionion you have that doesn't demonstrate you're a 100% self-serving amoral bastard? (Just like me).
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
... i've decided to let alot of random people live, for no real reason at all... does that count?
See, this is really why such a debate between us will do no good... we're too alike in this field
Im not a 100% self-serving amoral bastard... but im pretty fucking close, most of the time
Maybe, if we changed the premise a little bit? or altered the topic to something a smig more specific?
What Would Kharn Do?
I had a big ol' response about how Microsoft gamed the system and destroyed the economic viability of other companies (and the economic growth that would've been associated with those companies), but I realized that we really do agree on most things here, so I'm not sure what we're really arguing about anymore. Here's the bit that caused this realization:
This is always the case when I argue politics with conservative friends -- we discover we really do agree on the goals, and on the problems associated with different systems.
BTW: I do believe capitalism is the most efficient economic system. Look at any city in the US, and you can see that it works. Granted, there's socialism there, too, what with roads, power, water, and waste disposal usually managed by public agencies (though often implemented by private firms). I think that just shows that capitalism and socialism are not mutually exclusive.
Anyway, thanks for the conversation, EXC. I have enjoyed it.
"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers
Obviously it didn't bring you much pleasure. You saved the cost of the ammo to do this. Or more likely you didn't want to risk being fresh meat in the penitentiary shower stalls. Sorry but it still demonstrates your true amoral nature.
When it's convenient for you to not appear selfish, you can put on the act, right? You're so good at putting on the act, you even convince yourself your unselfish and compassionate. Oh to be human.
Something along the lines of rationality should lead us to master morality, slave morality or something entirely different.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master-slave_morality
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
"economics in one lesson" by henry hazlitt
read it
None of which ever stopped me before *cough* >.>
IF anything its showing that i tend to be lazy...
What Would Kharn Do?
But you're to lazy to fight, remember?
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
no no, it was "I was possibly to lazy to kill a bunch of random people for unknown reasons"
... I know you, and im sure i could think up a reason or 12 to put an end to you...
Ya, thats right... im moral enough to need a REASON to kill you, albeit a "Doomy reason" , but a reason none the less!
What Would Kharn Do?