Marquis vs. Luminon on the subject of Spirituality

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Marquis vs. Luminon on the subject of Spirituality

Marquis asked me to open this topic.  Both Marquis and Luminon have been granted access to this forum.  Nobody else except mods are capable of posting here.. 

 

Here is the peanut gallery thread for this discussion: http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/19372

 

 

 

 

 

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Marquis
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The purpose of this thread

The purpose of this thread is to investigate the concept of "spirituality".

I am of the mind that it denominates a personal state of emotion in your relation to the world at large. I am of the mind that it is often hysterical, delusional and highly irrational - but it's still experienced as "meaningful" on a subjective level by the one who's experiencing these feelings.

I say that there is no such thing as a "spiritual dimension" which is separate from the existence that we all can know.

There are no specially "spirited" people, only nutcases who believe in their own hallucinations.

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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Marquis wrote:I am of the

Marquis wrote:

I am of the mind that it denominates a personal state of emotion in your relation to the world at large. I am of the mind that it is often hysterical, delusional and highly irrational - but it's still experienced as "meaningful" on a subjective level by the one who's experiencing these feelings.


There are many things, that were considered spiritual. By time, they became corrupted and obsolete, and new concepts became considered spiritual. Therefore, I think that spirituality is the aspect of progressivity of something, not the concept itself. It is not confined to religional or mystical area, but to anything innovative.
I think that dwelling with old versions of spirituality - like organized religion, may be as you say, hysterical and delusional. But not all people go with the age. Not only religional people, there are also obsolete forms of mediumship and psychism.

Marquis wrote:
  I say that there is no such thing as a "spiritual dimension" which is separate from the existence that we all can know.
I say, that various traditions worldwidely have postulated existence of this "spiritual dimension". Not only ancient cultures, but also relatively modern experiments of spiritists, Theosophists, healers and particularly, the research of Robert Allan Monroe. All these sources came to the same conclusion, and often to the similar models of various areas of "spiritual dimension", as demonstrated on this picture.

Furthermore, there is enough of space in contemporary scientific theories, that may be, what was always historically called "spiritual dimension". The first was aether theory. Although it was foolishly abandoned, this concept returns in disguised forms of dark matter, neutrinos, background space radiation, and so on.  You know, that vacuum has somehow constant non-zero permitivity, permeability, and so-called zero point energy. It is therefore not empty.
The only thing that remains to prove it, is the idea that these real space phenomena somehow interact with human mentality and physiology.

But indeed, "spiritual dimension" is a highly unprecise term. More precisely, it's a sum of all matter (and energy) of the universe, which has it's basic particles vibrating at a different rate. You know, although our matter seems solid to us, high frequency signals or particles can pass them almost freely. I think this does not deny the existence of non-physical worlds, quite oppositely.
I think that only sensitivity of our equipment, bodily and technical, separates us from this sum of various "spiritual worlds" around us. This sensitivity may be either natural, under control, or pathologic and uncontrolled. This is the difference between a psychic and madman.
 

Marquis wrote:
  There are no specially "spirited" people, only nutcases who believe in their own hallucinations.
I have seen on numerous ocassions, that people are able to react on non-physical phenomena independently and simultaneously. I'm a living example of that. I can physically, tangibly perceive things, that were described and written down millenia ago, in various esoteric traditions. I did not make it up, this ability it was already there, when I was born, or soon after. And yet, I have a normal life that allows me to work, study, meet people, and so on. It's a possible advantage and it's certainly very interesting.
Majority of such a people have normal lives, achieve various education, have a job, family, and so on. If there would be present some kind of psychosis, it would necessarily have impact on these areas. I have seen some people with psychic abilities (usually mediumship), who were crazy. Even in these cases, their mental deviation was distinct from their mediumship. Other people were also mediums, completely sane, but entirely selfish and greedy. Therefore, I say that spiritual phenomena don't necessarily endanger sanity, neither they determine that person's religiosity, interests, vocation, degree of education, or anything else. It is the person, that determines the existence, quality and safety of personal spiritual perception and abilities. To be aware of spiritual phenomena is one thing, but to have any control over them, is entirely a different thing.

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Luminon wrote:"spiritual

Luminon wrote:


"spiritual dimension" is a highly unprecise term. More precisely, it's a sum of all matter (and energy) of the universe, which has it's basic particles vibrating at a different rate.

This only says that it can mean pretty much anything. Even the very same thing as the "normal world".

The way I understand "spirituality" is as a claim to be in contact with an unseen and non material world.

There is in fact a sort of informal movement of people that consider themselves to be "spiritual". We often call that new age. I have met and discussed with many such people - and they all seem pretty deluded to me. Mostly in the sense that they will pick and choose from various semi-esoteric scientific concepts such as relativity and quantum theory, then apply it to whatever it is they are doing. For instance, I heard of "quantum healing". WTF? Just like the religious nutters, they will clutch at whatever straws there are in order to support their delusion.

In order to qualify this debate: I claim that there is no such thing as "spirituality". There is only fantasy (which can be very vivid and seem very real to the person who harbours it). The human being is an ape, it's not a spiritual creature. We live by the principles of nature, not mystical laws that emanate from another dimension. In my opinion, people who claim to have some sort of special connection with such extradimensional, supernatural or parapsychological phenomenons are deluded. I can accept that they have, or have had, certain personal experiences that are hard to make any sense of, but in the act of interpreting these exoperiences they jump to conclusions that are essentially the same fallacies that fuel the religious brand of insanity.

However -

It must be said that current theoretical physics is outdoing the esotericists by lightyears. Are you up to date on M-theory?

If not, I will ask you to set aside some time to go through this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7FV9aaiwKQ (it's a mini-series).


 

 

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Marquis wrote:This only says

Marquis wrote:

This only says that it can mean pretty much anything. Even the very same thing as the "normal world".

Yes. Why not?  There is no duality of "normal world" and "spiritual world". There are multiple worlds, each still more vibrating, and each having 7 sub-frequencies of it's own. For example, this dense-physical world has also 7 sub-frequencies of matter. Our bodies and senses allow us to see the 3 lowest frequencies as one world, composed of solid, liquid, and gaseous matter. But most of people does not perceive the remaining 4 higher degrees of matter, finer than gas, but still physical. I do, to a certain degree, and I know many people, who learned that ability too. There is nothing astounding about it. It's easier than learning a foreign language. Those who will have the discipline to perform appropriate training, will achieve that ability too. It may take not more than mere months.

Marquis wrote:
The way I understand "spirituality" is as a claim to be in contact with an unseen and non material world.
All right, I'll take it as your definition for now. I always thought that spirituality is much closer to morality, open-mindedness, and so on. Because, you know, there are people who are in touch with non-material (or better said less-material) world, but are immoral or deluded. Or there are those, that see it, so it's not an unseen world for them. You see, it's not that simple for me.

Marquis wrote:
There is in fact a sort of informal movement of people that consider themselves to be "spiritual". We often call that new age. I have met and discussed with many such people - and they all seem pretty deluded to me. Mostly in the sense that they will pick and choose from various semi-esoteric scientific concepts such as relativity and quantum theory, then apply it to whatever it is they are doing. For instance, I heard of "quantum healing". WTF? Just like the religious nutters, they will clutch at whatever straws there are in order to support their delusion.
Yes, New Age is quite a pain in the ass. It's diffcult to find someone among them, who really has a critical thinking.
Usually, they have no substantial abilities that they could research. For example, I can say that things like chakras or etheric body exists, because I feel it physically in all circumstances (except of sleeping) and I did some simple, but succesful experiments with proving that it is an objective phenomenon, that it can detect objects outside of me, and influence other people. I don't feel the need to support it, it's already as convincing, as any other physical event. But I can't know if it's a quantum phenomenon, because I didn't study quantum physics. What I can do, is invoking the name of a famous physicist David Bohm, who professionally noticed this similarity between physics and eastern mysticism. He was also a good friend of Jiddu Krishnamurti, a really advanced esotericist. Reading something what Bohm wrote on this topic would be a better start.

Marquis wrote:
  In order to qualify this debate: I claim that there is no such thing as "spirituality". There is only fantasy (which can be very vivid and seem very real to the person who harbours it).
I can't think that, because I saw things that proved to me, how spiritual phenomena can reach far out of my head, and vice versa. The same things (or better) happened to my family and friends, and happen about several times per year. (if I don't count my permanent, lifetime-long etheric perception) In my situation, I really have no other choice than to be totally convinced by the daily reality of it. Of course, I understand that other people can live all their life without noticing anything and it doesn't make them less of a people. It has really more to do with personal constitution of nerve system, than with intellect or morality.

Marquis wrote:
The human being is an ape, it's not a spiritual creature. We live by the principles of nature, not mystical laws that emanate from another dimension.
If you are aware of nothing more than human body, then yes, human body is of animal origin.
And what makes you think, that natural laws are any different from mystical laws? It is our world that emanated from another "dimension", not oppositely. You know, that it's there only for about 14 billions of years.
The spiritual creatures that people are, do not get born. They use these bodies of animal origin as tools and vehicles to explore the physical reality. Some are more skilled explorers, some less, and most of them have no substantial contact with their vehicles. A person is capable of living happily (and lazily) without the need for soul. They start to search for the evolution of consciousness that soul provides, usually after some great personal crisis or accident.

Marquis wrote:
In my opinion, people who claim to have some sort of special connection with such extradimensional, supernatural or parapsychological phenomenons are deluded.
I can accept that they have, or have had, certain personal experiences that are hard to make any sense of, but in the act of interpreting these experiences they jump to conclusions that are essentially the same fallacies that fuel the religious brand of insanity.
  Well, and why are they deluded?
And what about INTERPERSONAL EXPERIENCES?

Btw, in my opinion, this is not a religious insanity, because there is very little of fanatism, self-righteousness, bigotry, and so on. It's pretty much in laid-back style.

Marquis wrote:
However -

It must be said that current theoretical physics is outdoing the esotericists by lightyears.

It depends on what you mean by outdoing. Esoteric theory describes everything of all sciences combined and much more. Contemporary universe, with all it's black holes, quasars and galaxies pales in comparison with esoteric cosmology. The problem is, that esotericism is mostly suited to needs of human beings and development of their consciousness. Nothing more, nothing less. Rather than giving us the complete science of everything, it only describes everything. (that can be humanly comprehended) Firstly, knowing technical data is not necessary for development of consciousness, and secondly, technical data are very dangerous in wrong hands, like military. They are of course known by Masters of wisdom, but they only whisper them to the few most advanced students' ears. They're not going to tell us how to dematerialize stuff or make objects weightless, until we will totally and forever abandon war.
If you understand the "outdoing" as the amount of technical data, then surely, science is ahead.


Marquis wrote:
  Are you up to date on M-theory?

If not, I will ask you to set aside some time to go through this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7FV9aaiwKQ (it's a mini-series).

I have heard some approving words from a famous esotericist about the string theory, but I don't know yet enough about it. I will watch the series you suggested (I see it's helluva long) and then I will adress it in a separate post.
And I'm going to compare what I will see with esoteric model of quantum physics and string theory, which is mentioned here:
http://esotericscience.org/article5a.htm
Strings discovered 80 years ahead of science? Well, that might be interesting.

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Luminon wrote:There is no

Luminon wrote:
There is no duality of "normal world" and "spiritual world". There are multiple worlds, each still more vibrating, and each having 7 sub-frequencies of it's own. For example, this dense-physical world has also 7 sub-frequencies of matter. Our bodies and senses allow us to see the 3 lowest frequencies as one world, composed of solid, liquid, and gaseous matter. But most of people does not perceive the remaining 4 higher degrees of matter, finer than gas, but still physical.

 

Whoa! Easy there. You are violating highschool physics now.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/state.html

 

As it happens, I just recently read David Bohm's book "On Creativity". That particular book wasn't about physics, but I am quite fond of his theories on the enfolded universe, the holomovement. I see how that can be worked into an M-theory model. Khrishnamurti used to interest me when I was about 15-16. As did Arthur Koestler. But I discovered the REAL shit soon enough, in the form of Plato and the Stoics.

Anyway, spirituality.

I have studied quite a bit of "esotericism" and I have so far found no reason to take any of that gobbeldygook seriously - other than you can of course say that it may be a lucrative field of operation for the averagely suave conmen and charlatans. People LIKE that shit. It makes them feel special. When most people are i fact little more than mediocre twats who really weren't cut out for the noble art of thinking.

Anyway, let's return to your 7 levels of vibration. WTF is that shit anyway? Where did you get that information from? Why hasn't somebody been awarded the Noble Prize in physics for that remarkable discovery? Why isn't NASA aware of it? I have a friend who's always ranting on about how she can "see" things ... as in how things are working together "behind the scenes" to create Samsara, the kingdom of the senses. I always tell her to shut the fuck up with her hippie crystal lady nonsense and go read some physics instead. The real world is by far more mysterious and magnificent than anything any of those nutters are able to cook up in their fevered minds.

So... what's with you and the long dead concept of aether anyway?

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Marquis wrote:Whoa! Easy

Marquis wrote:

Whoa! Easy there. You are violating highschool physics now.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/state.html

I don't refer to temperature here. Temperature is today understood as vibration of molecules. But what I mean, is vibration of the fundamental sub-atomic particles, otherwise molecules are equivalent, they just don't collide with matter of lower vibration.  

Marquis wrote:
As it happens, I just recently read David Bohm's book "On Creativity". That particular book wasn't about physics, but I am quite fond of his theories on the enfolded universe, the holomovement. I see how that can be worked into an M-theory model. Khrishnamurti used to interest me when I was about 15-16. As did Arthur Koestler. But I discovered the REAL shit soon enough, in the form of Plato and the Stoics.
Well, and what's wrong about Plato and Stoics? They're just philosophers anyway, and philosophy can be easily wrong, because it's not easily verified.

Marquis wrote:
Anyway, spirituality.

I have studied quite a bit of "esotericism" and I have so far found no reason to take any of that gobbeldygook seriously - other than you can of course say that it may be a lucrative field of operation for the averagely suave conmen and charlatans. People LIKE that shit. It makes them feel special. When most people are i fact little more than mediocre twats who really weren't cut out for the noble art of thinking.

If you mean New Age movement, you're correct. But the true esotericism makes you feel completely humble, even if you're an enlightened person, who can control natural laws. Esotericists are esoteric for the reason, that they don't make themselves stick out of the crowd and push their truth on other people. This is also why there is so much of deluded people in New Age movement, they're free to be deluded. But if you read books or watch lectures related to The Tibetyan, Benjamin Creme, Daskalos, Alice Bailey, and so on, you will be struck by their modesty. The Tibetyan himself (Dwhjal Khul) protected his true identity for many years, so that readers of his books would not accept them just because of his authority. To these people, human free will is sacred and they never infringe it. They never demand anything from anyone, they don't order, they only give voluntary recommendations.
It's also true, that this great merit in their texts is noticed only by those, who are tired of big-mouthed authorities.

Marquis wrote:
Anyway, let's return to your 7 levels of vibration. WTF is that shit anyway? Where did you get that information from? Why hasn't somebody been awarded the Noble Prize in physics for that remarkable discovery? Why isn't NASA aware of it? I have a friend who's always ranting on about how she can "see" things ... as in how things are working together "behind the scenes" to create Samsara, the kingdom of the senses. I always tell her to shut the fuck up with her hippie crystal lady nonsense and go read some physics instead. The real world is by far more mysterious and magnificent than anything any of those nutters are able to cook up in their fevered minds.

That information is not a discovery, it's revelation to many civilizations, in many ages. But it can be verified nonetheless, thanks to Nikola Tesla, Wilhelm Reich, and many phenomena happening today, otherwise unexplainable.
By the way, every human being can verify the existence of higher worlds, if they devote as much effort to it, as to any other thing that people do - like getting a doctorate, becoming a great piano player, or doing science. It is ridiculous to think, that it would be easier. Of course, a true master can prove his abilities physically, for example by healing a person in physically impossible way.
It's logical, that the most dense less-physical worlds will be discovered sooner. NASA is aware of aether, partially. But that word is forbidden, so there are many other popular words  for that. Antimatter, neutrinos, background space radiation, dark matter, and so on, all these belong to the family of aetheric (or higher) phenomena. "But it's physical!" you say. Of course it is. Aether is physical, just it's atoms have a bit different (non-colliding) properties, that's all.
This is truly fascinating universe. If the dense-physical world is already so interesting for you, imagine how several of subtle-material worlds together must be interesting.

I have a question. Are you one of those who believe in objectivity of scientific institutions? Because, I have no idea how a corporation with positions of power, official policy and shitload of money can be ever objective.


Marquis wrote:
So... what's with you and the long dead concept of aether anyway?

It's tangible to me, within my body, on the skin, and a few centimeters above the skin. In fact, it's directly participating on people's nerve and endocrine system. By controlling the aether I have, I can do some interesting psychosomatic stuff, which can be used for things like healing, or misused. But it's more than that. Etheric body is, what receives the energy, perception, or information from higher human bodies, determines vitality of a person, and many other things. Besides that, it participates on phenomena like gravity, meteorology, static charge, solar wind, and so on. Because, aether is not a single substance, it's 4 higher states of matter, that is otherwise equivalent to dense physical matter. For example, normal metal can be converted to etheric metal, and vice versa.
Convertion of normal matter on etheric was best documented in 1995, during a worldwidely happening phenomenon, called Hindu milk miracle. Of course, nonsensical, but materialistic "explanation" by capillary action just popped into your mind. If you want to verify that, take a statuette, ceramic, metallic or plaster and try to stuff a gallon of milk into it, without drowning the floor and luring all cats in neighbourhood.

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Luminon wrote:I don't refer

Luminon wrote:

I don't refer to temperature here. Temperature is today understood as vibration of molecules. But what I mean, is vibration of the fundamental sub-atomic particles, otherwise molecules are equivalent, they just don't collide with matter of lower vibration.

This is nonsense. Any "vibration" within a material will produce heat.

You mentioned Alice Bailey as a "true" esotericist. You gotta be fucking kidding me, right?

She is the quintssential example of that which I call hippie crystal ladies. I've read one of her books - "A Treatise on White Magic" - and I found it to be about one third of unfounded conjecture and two thirds of 24 carat bullshit. I suppose your "true" esotericicts also include people like George Ivanovich Gurdjieff and Annie Beasant? Charles Leadbeater? Margaret Murray? To me they are all charlatans. This whole esoteric mumbo jumbo la la nonsense is nothing but a "folk" religion of the crudest kind, no better or worse than the "Welteislehre" and the race doctrines of pre-Nazi Germany.

No, I do not believe in the objectivity of scientific institutions since they are obviously subjected to such things as personal ambition and professional jealousy. (I do believe in the corruptability of the human heart, though.) But that doesnt mean that science itself is corrupt. Wrong many times, of course, but also self-moderating and subjected to evolution. Anyone who can present a theory which is backed by evidence and has "testability" to others will be accepted on the scientific premises and become part of the scientific discourse.

Anyway, let's return to "spirituality".

I am baffled by your use of "dark matter" (which I believe is currently defined as particles that doesn't interact with light). And neutrinos? Background radiation?!? THAT is what constitutes aether? Dude, you have a belief system there. And you're clutching at straws in order to justify it. Which is okay, but it makes you look like a nutter - which is a shame, because you're obviously an intelligent guy. But your mind is undisciplined. It flies all over the place.

 

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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I have just watched the

I have just watched the series on M-theory. You know, I didn't really understand it before. And other people know, I'm not that easily upset. But when the film unfolded, you know what I kept saying in my mind?
HOLY FUCKING SHIT.
HOLY FUCKING SHIT.
HOLY FUCKING SHIT.
And over and over again. Because, you know, this is EXACTLY what I've been trying to tell you and everyone on this forum. It's exactly what the esotericism says, what Dwhjal Khul wrote, what Maitreya teaches, what Hindus and various mystical traditions have smuggled into official religions. It is like you would have a twin brother, lose him in the world and 20 years later realize, that he is the one who plays World of Warcraft with you on the internet, just as a different vocation. I found out, that the concept of 11 dimensions is actually very easy to comprehend to me, thanks to esoteric theory's explanatory power.

So I'd like to ask you, what do YOU think about this theory. Because if you approve it, but still think that I'm full of shit, then you'd need a friendly head whack, so your mind would brighten up and see the unity of esotericism an M-theory. And perhaps really reading about the esotericism, properly from the beginning.
On the other side, if you don't quite approve M-theory, then this is where you can start understanding esotericism.

Of course, there are things in that film, which are nonsenses, in my opinion. Creation of universe through colliding of two membranes? Bullshit. Communication with inhabitants of other dimensions through gravity? Even bigger bullshit. Really, there is one thing about science I don't like, it could be called witch burning.
Everything that has anything to do with witches must be burned. So there is absolutely nothing that scientists can begin with, that can inspire them. There must be no W-word in their theory, otherwise nobody will read it. (an example of such a word is today aether)
But for those, who are familiar with what I am familiar, will see certain patterns, connections and order, to which the scientists must work their way through decades and math-based evidence. In comparison, esotericists have these exotic and unknown other dimensions named, mapped, described and related to our own dimension. And it becomes obvious, that this multi-dimensional nature of the universe is not just explanation for physics, it also naturally explains vast majority of so-called paranormal phenomena and puts more solid ground to psychology.

The main idea that you should consider, is the idea that mental, emotional and intuitive phenomena have their origin in some of these other dimensions. It's nice that the film considered the existence of extra-dimensional life. But it didn't consider that it is and always was in frequent interaction with our world, and is responsible for most of the phenomena that science could so far only ignore.

Marquis wrote:

This is nonsense. Any "vibration" within a material will produce heat.

Only if there is a friction. The friction may be, if there is collision. But what I'm trying to say, these particles will not collide, repel or attract each other, because this difference in vibration of their electron covers and atomic cores is too great. It's like having a key that can only open doors on certain floor, but not higher, and not lower.
I actually have seen recently a suggestion, than during convertion of etheric-physical matter on dense-physical there is increase in heat. Obviously, if all the particles vibrate in the same way, there is no relative movement between them, no friction and no heat. This is why normal matter doesn't heat itself out of nothing, and why radioactivity is ALSO an aetheric phenomenon. My information from a reliable source actually is, that nuclear fission produces also radiation on aetheric level. This invisible and physically unstoppable radiation is therefore most dangerous. This is, what contributes to contemporary epidemia of degenerative neural diseases. (like Alzheimer) This is logical, because aetheric counterpart of physical body underlies the nerve system.


Marquis wrote:
You mentioned Alice Bailey as a "true" esotericist. You gotta be fucking kidding me, right?

She is the quintssential example of that which I call hippie crystal ladies. I've read one of her books - "A Treatise on White Magic" - and I found it to be about one third of unfounded conjecture and two thirds of 24 carat bullshit. I suppose your "true" esotericicts also include people like George Ivanovich Gurdjieff and Annie Beasant? Charles Leadbeater? Margaret Murray? To me they are all charlatans. This whole esoteric mumbo jumbo la la nonsense is nothing but a "folk" religion of the crudest kind, no better or worse than the "Welteislehre" and the race doctrines of pre-Nazi Germany.


I have read this book as well. You have to know, that this is VERY esoteric information. You will have no idea what's going on there, unless you are very advanced person, and at the same time, your personal (bodily, emotional, mental, etc) constitution matches certain values, that make people be inclined to esotericism. Furthermore, you would have to read books that introduce you to the basic concepts, in the first place. This is essentially a book written for initiates, a lot of the information in there is encrypted. Literally, it's written like that on purpose, to train the reading initiate's intuitive abilities! I personally understood most of of the text, but just barely and with great effort. It is literally a handbook for people, who undergo one of final stages of human evolution of consciousness. That excludes 99,999% of humanity. There are books that may take 10 or 20 years before even an advanced esotericist can understand them, this is how it is. I'd have a similar reaction, if you would give me a book of mathemathical equations. You really didn't pick a good book to start with. Start with an introductory book, for the Mother Nature's sake.

Btw, everyone who is not a top-class esotericist, must be taken with a grain of salt. Leaders and founders were a clear source of information, but their followers not so much, and some of them were overcame with their ambitions or personal delusions. People like Annie Besant did a good job with simplifying and popularizing esotericism, but they didn't make it better. And people like Rudolf Steiner made more bullshit and confusion than good work. No wonder that Alice Bailey had to abandon Theosophic society, when it got overtaken by cliques and personal interests. This is why The Tibetyan himself praises rationality and critical discernment, (no kidding! ) in his book which is I think Letters on Occult meditation. There is also great emphasis on physical, emotional and mental self-control and virtues.
 

Marquis wrote:
  No, I do not believe in the objectivity of scientific institutions since they are obviously subjected to such things as personal ambition and professional jealousy. (I do believe in the corruptability of the human heart, though.) But that doesnt mean that science itself is corrupt. Wrong many times, of course, but also self-moderating and subjected to evolution. Anyone who can present a theory which is backed by evidence and has "testability" to others will be accepted on the scientific premises and become part of the scientific discourse.
All right. I'm mainly concerned about those who decide about funding of various projects. In this way, some projects aren't given a chance.

Marquis wrote:
  Anyway, let's return to "spirituality".

I am baffled by your use of "dark matter" (which I believe is currently defined as particles that doesn't interact with light). And neutrinos? Background radiation?!? THAT is what constitutes aether? Dude, you have a belief system there. And you're clutching at straws in order to justify it. Which is okay, but it makes you look like a nutter - which is a shame, because you're obviously an intelligent guy. But your mind is undisciplined. It flies all over the place.

Nope, I don't have a belief. I have a countless number of personal and interpersonal physical observations. Then I have the same data and records from all places and historical periods, with predictive and explanatory power. And I have a theory, that fits perfectly, like an ass on chamber-pot.  Furthermore, if there is anything real about it, then it must have parallels in official, independently developed theories. Which it has.
Of course, I have also that warm and fuzzy feeling of seeing the deep and broad unity and interconnection of everything, science, spirituality, life, death, nature, economy and politics, but that's a result of my experience, not it's cause. My mind is perhaps too much free, but that means I can see something that others don't, thanks to narrowness of their worldviews.

If you haven't noticed, I have never used a crystal for healing, I despise mediumship and channeling, I consider majority of available literature on that topic less or more shitty, and I value physical, personal, undoubtable experience above everything else. My mind has some degree of discipline, and the better an esotericist is, the more discipline his or her mind has. But I could say the same about scientists. Their minds are usually the least disciplined, because it's not demanded from them, they do not meditate therefore they don't train mental focus. By mental focus, I mean the ability to hold one image or idea in mind with all details and complexity, without any interfering distractions or thoughts for several minutes. If scientists could do that, their creativity would increase tenfold.

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Luminon wrote:what do YOU

Luminon wrote:

what do YOU think about this theory

 

 

I think it is a theory. It has beauty and grace. It  jives [1]. M-theory harmonizes with my intuition. 

Frankly, I think it is a shame that you give credence to charlatans. But it is of course your choice to make. As far as I am concerned, there is little reason to be impressed with anyone who points out how much we do not know. Duh! The more we know, the more we know that we don't know. We will never catch up with that. To the extent that we can know "everything" this is a knowledge that is about personal emotions and sentiment. I have seen people weeping in realisation of what to them seems profound - and all I can think is how annoying those fucking hippies are. However gooey you may feel in the moment, you are still nothing but an ape. It is preposterous to think that we can fathom "the occult" (which literally means that which is hidden) and make it part of our human project of science and understanding.

But we can feel it.

This is where I think you fell off the turnip truck. In my opinion, what you need is a serious dose of kinky sex... with someone who knows what the fuck they are doing - and thus are able to trap your erratic energy down and fixate it within an orderly framework. It will put everything into perspective. It will clarify your feelings and give you a sense of peace and understanding that you currently seek to find in places where no such thing exists. But that is of couse only my opinion...

 

[1]:

 

 

 

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Marquis wrote:I think it is

Marquis wrote:


I think it is a theory. It has beauty and grace. It  jives [1]. M-theory harmonizes with my intuition.
Fine. With mine too.

Marquis wrote:
Frankly, I think it is a shame that you give credence to charlatans. But it is of course your choice to make. As far as I am concerned, there is little reason to be impressed with anyone who points out how much we do not know. Duh! The more we know, the more we know that we don't know. We will never catch up with that.
I've got enough experience with charlatans to know, who is and who is not a charlatan. Trust me about this, There are literally decades of experience in this area, that I have available. This is one of our favorite topics, how a self-appointed guru was full of shit and how we recognized that and ditched him or her. I wasn't born yesterday, neither my parents were, and other members of the club. We've been through all sorts of things, almost everything that the market and sub-culture can offer. Everything was a great learning experience, specially the bad guys.

And in return, it's a huge turnoff for me when someone says, that we will never achieve this, never know that, or in million years. What kind of pansy attitude is that? There are perfected men, who's science and art would put everyone in awe. They are the cutting edge of humanity's progress. For last millenia they were hidden, but since World War 2 they work on externalizing themselves, to eventually live publically among people and work as advisors in every area of human activity. Under their inspiration, exponential progress in all areas won't be a problem. It's already pretty much the case in areas like technology.

Marquis wrote:
To the extent that we can know "everything" this is a knowledge that is about personal emotions and sentiment. I have seen people weeping in realisation of what to them seems profound - and all I can think is how annoying those fucking hippies are.
What you mean belongs to emotional realm. I don't value these emotions higher than you. Occultism is predominantly the path of creative intellect that rules the emotions, uproots things like sentiment and grows inner peace. But mysticism is unfortunately the path of heart, that knows no intellect, at least not enough of it.
Yeah, I've seen weeping people too. Nothing I'd want to try.

Marquis wrote:
However gooey you may feel in the moment, you are still nothing but an ape. It is preposterous to think that we can fathom "the occult" (which literally means that which is hidden) and make it part of our human project of science and understanding.
Firstly, I don't feel gooey, aether does, most of the time. Secondly, the occult knowledge is originally hidden, but gradually revealed to humanity as exoteric, scientific knowledge, such is a purpose of it. Today we have books in shops, that were kept secret in ancient mystery schools. Esotericists are some those who do that publication work. Thirdly, we are not apes. There are people, to whom a modern person compared is like a caveman compared to a modern person, everyone have potential to become like that and more. There's like 2 millions of these people, and the greatest scientists, artists and politicians were from among them. Are those apes too?

Marquis wrote:
But we can feel it.

This is where I think you fell off the turnip truck.
Where? I'm aetherically sensitive as long as I can remember, since 3 years perhaps, and I don't remember there would be any falling off the truck around that time. It's an inborn, natural phenomenon, which will become common among population.

Marquis wrote:
In my opinion, what you need is a serious dose of kinky sex... with someone who knows what the fuck they are doing - and thus are able to trap your erratic energy down and fixate it within an orderly framework. It will put everything into perspective. It will clarify your feelings and give you a sense of peace and understanding that you currently seek to find in places where no such thing exists. But that is of couse only my opinion...
Well, I'd certainly appreciate a good sex. But that does not change anything, my perception was always there in all circumstances, even more extreme than that.
My feelings are clarified, my worldview is great, but orderly, and it's basically the string theory in a bit different words.  This is actually where I'm home, this is my expertise, otherwise I couldn't argue with you. I have seen charlatans and thanks to years of experience I can recognize them from the bringers of truth. You should know, truth is like a diamond with many sides.
Even if all I say would be false, it would still have the same great value. Because, the main value of esoteric teachings is in it's impact on psychology, politics, economy, sociolgy, ecology, and so on. Benjamin Creme, the greatest contemporary esotericist, devotes half of his monthly magazine to these worldly topics. He published interviews with diplomats or politicians like Michail Gorbachev or Nelson Mandela, and is greatly concerned about this world. I study public administration, and I'm going to apply these models in my career, because they're simply the best, the most progressive, ethical and futuristic ideas I've ever seen. Stop wasting time with hippies, there is the true esotericism, that stands with both feet firmly on the ground.

As for [1]: How the hell do you insert the video? It doesn't work if I try to do it. There might be some electronic, shamanic and psychedelic music to throw at you.
 

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Luminon wrote: What kind of

Luminon wrote:

What kind of pansy attitude is that?

 

It's commonly referred to as realism.

The reason why I brush all and any of those people off as charlatans is because they aren't even mediocre campus-philosophers. All they have is statements of conjecture that they "prove" with... more statemens and conjecture... and maybe some other fucking nutter's "authority" in the matter. In sum total, exactly the same thing that the religilous fucktards are doing - only wrapped in some fancy schmanzy and pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo. It's boringly easy to see the psychological games that "esotericists" are playing. It's the same old story. Delusions of grandeure.

In fact I think of all such things as blatant manifestations of sexual hysteria. Sublimation. Compensation for a true outlet for the creative energy of mind and body. We are not getting smarter, you know. We are still stupid and brutal monkeys. Only nowadays we are elaborate stupid and brutal monkeys. So much so that even the worst of idiots are allowed to stay alive and multiply; because society is there to shelter them from the consequences of their idiocy and say "it's allright... we are all infinitely valuable". But tey are wrong. We are nothing but stupid and brutal monkeys - and that's all we will ever be.

One thing which is good, though, is that esotericists are usually able to find constructive outlets for their narcissism, such as grooming whatever "abilities" they fancy themselves to have (which to me still only is a manifestation of sexual hysteria). I find it all really rather amusing, to be honest. Ingenuity in the execution of folly is at least one genuinely human quality that never loses its entertainment value. Rock on!

(I embed videos by clicking on "source" and then copying+pasting the embed code into the window.)

 

Like this:

 

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Marquis wrote: Luminon

Marquis wrote:
Luminon wrote:
What kind of pansy attitude is that?
 

It's commonly referred to as realism.

I don't think so. This attitude contains zero responsibility and zero constructive thinking. A realist would know, that the situation is so diffcult, that it demands a lot of responsible, constructive and positive thinking, therefore optimist is a realist Smiling

Marquis wrote:
The reason why I brush all and any of those people off as charlatans is because they aren't even mediocre campus-philosophers. All they have is statements of conjecture that they "prove" with... more statemens and conjecture... and maybe some other fucking nutter's "authority" in the matter. In sum total, exactly the same thing that the religilous fucktards are doing - only wrapped in some fancy schmanzy and pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo. It's boringly easy to see the psychological games that "esotericists" are playing. It's the same old story. Delusions of grandeure.
I'm sure there are esotericists like that out there, but our group makes sure to not be like them. Of course, we get our daily dose of evidence through frequent practice. We see it working on myriads of examples, hundreds of people and events. Being good at diffcult skills requires many years of practice and complex knowledge. I have no idea how can you be so sure about something without that particular knowledge and practice.

Marquis wrote:
In fact I think of all such things as blatant manifestations of sexual hysteria. Sublimation. Compensation for a true outlet for the creative energy of mind and body.
Wow, someone's just dug up the Freud corpse. So when we esotericists sit together, drink tea, eat cookies, discuss and laugh, that's sexual hysteria? Or when we sit and meditate calmly for hours? The closest as we get to sex is discussing people's fucked up relationships and ways how to fix them.
Really, you take Freud way too much seriously. I'm not sure if he or you ever tried his own method of psychoanalysis.

Marquis wrote:
We are not getting smarter, you know. We are still stupid and brutal monkeys. Only nowadays we are elaborate stupid and brutal monkeys. So much so that even the worst of idiots are allowed to stay alive and multiply; because society is there to shelter them from the consequences of their idiocy and say "it's allright... we are all infinitely valuable". But tey are wrong. We are nothing but stupid and brutal monkeys - and that's all we will ever be. 
I dare to differ on that. Today, a 14 years old student of grammar school has as much of knowledge, as a medieval age professor. Next, there is a vast participation on charity, ecologic movements, human rights defending and so on, everything of global importance, something in a scope that animals could not imagine. It is even considered as a good manner, to be involved in these activities. And even if there is evil committed, much of it is well-meant, just imperfectly carried out.
In fact, I think three things. Firstly, you are right, if you refer to people who are determined by the consumer society. But in that case, the consumer quasi-culture is the one to blame. In different culture, these people would behave differently.
Secondly, I think you're heavily projecting onto people your own personality. Do you think, that the world is full of ugly, worthless and stupid people? Then what the hell did you do to fix that problem? If nothing, how are you any better than them? Look at yourself first. Don't judge others, lest you will be judged.
Thirdly, you're in a serious need of emotional hygiene, which is just as necessary, as physical hygiene. Esotericism puts a great emphasis on it.
Fourthly, you have some really old-fashioned psychologic opinions. Have you ever heard of Positive psychology? (thanks Natural) This is the psychology that is truly useful and constructive. The all-around-sex psychology of Freud was just good for shocking upper-class Victorian ladies, so they would perhaps unwittingly display a naked ankle. His work also focused on psychopaths and positive effects of cocaine.

Marquis wrote:
  One thing which is good, though, is that esotericists are usually able to find constructive outlets for their narcissism, such as grooming whatever "abilities" they fancy themselves to have (which to me still only is a manifestation of sexual hysteria). I find it all really rather amusing, to be honest. Ingenuity in the execution of folly is at least one genuinely human quality that never loses its entertainment value. Rock on!
Narcissism? I'd say that esotericism, with it's emphasis on emotional hygiene, self-control, observation and development, cultivation of virtues and uprooting of vices treats narcissism as any other vice of character that must be disarmed and removed. You would hardly find any other community, where participants consciously strive to become better people in all respects.
Furthermore, if you read up on records of spiritual masters like Spyros Sathi (known as Daskalos in book series by Greece sociologist Kyriacos Markides) you will see, that they're modest, altruistic, level-headed and do not use their powers just to show off, even if he can fix a spine fracture in a moment.
Of course, I know, in esotericism a human free will is so much respected, that it's little effective on the average bulk, compared to other life styles. So there is a plenty of space to get a wrong impression. But more advanced individuals and groups would really surprise you.

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Luminon wrote:Wow, someone's

Luminon wrote:
Wow, someone's just dug up the Freud corpse. So when we esotericists sit together, drink tea, eat cookies, discuss and laugh, that's sexual hysteria? Or when we sit and meditate calmly for hours? The closest as we get to sex is discussing people's fucked up relationships and ways how to fix them.

We have a saying in Norway: "Never try to understand other people's marriage."

(The message is that you are lucky if you can understand your own.) "Discussing other people's relationships" is essentially nothing but gossip - and being so arrogant that you think it is for you to "fix" them just makes you a prick. "Sexual hysteria" is not whatever you do in the moment, it is a state of being lost in the labyrinth of the mind because you are unable to face the wind of fear that comes with absolute and uncompromising sexual honesty.

Rather than regurgitating Freud, I am playing on Reich's ideas. No matter how you rationalise whatever it is you are doing, it can always be traced back to a sexual motivation. Always. And you know why? Because we are biological animals and our only "purpose" is to deliver our genes to the next generation. There is nothing more than that. Sexuality is the engine of life. Yes the mind is there and it's sooooo tempting to flex it, just like it is tempting for any fucking peacock to strut the tail. The human mind serves no other evolutionary purpose than to enhance our sexual market value - just like the peacock's tail - in the eyes of a potential mate. Not acknowledging this only makes you look ridiculous; like a child in an adult body that he (or she) dosn't know how to use.



Luminon wrote:
Today, a 14 years old student of grammar school has as much of knowledge, as a medieval age professor.

You're kidding me, right? Or do you really not understand the crucial difference between information and knowledge? I won't even mention the virtue of disciplining your mind, as we have already established that you see no value in this. However, I shall think that you weren't really thinking when you wrote that and let it pass (for now).

 

Luminon wrote:
And even if there is evil committed, much of it is well-meant, just imperfectly carried out.

I do not subscribe to the idea that your intent justifies your means. In my opinion, what you actually do is all that matters. Everything you think, all that you sit and talk about, every last idea, opinion and illusion that you carry around with you; it's all irrelevant. All that matters is what you do. That is what you will be judged by. And that is how it should be.

 

Luminon wrote:
Do you think, that the world is full of ugly, worthless and stupid people?

Yes I do. However, I don't see that as a problem. It's just how things are. They have no more or less right to exist and express themselves than I do. Nor do I see any point in being all up in arms and complaints about something I need not subject myself to. They are just animals doing their thing, and they can easily be avoided. It's not for me to decide what people should and shouldn't do. As long as you don't step on my blue suede shoes, so to speak, you can be and do whatever the fuck you like as far as as I'm concerned.

 

Luminon wrote:
Narcissism? I'd say that esotericism, with it's emphasis on emotional hygiene, self-control, observation and development, cultivation of virtues and uprooting of vices treats narcissism as any other vice of character that must be disarmed and removed.

I find that to be a hysterically funny statement. I encourage you to look at it closely and see if you can spot the irony.


Luminon wrote:
they're modest, altruistic, level-headed and do not use their powers just to show off, even if he can fix a spine fracture in a moment

Apart from the fact that I see nothing admireable in being modest and altruistic (both are pretentious and narcissistic delusions, as far as I can see), I find it outright reprehensible that some person who claims to be able to fix a spine fracture in a moment isn't working at the local ER. Why is that, do you think? Because he doesn't want to impress the masses? Because his magical energy would only become depleted and his pure chakras would become polluted by all that grunt work? Or maybe because he's full of shit? Seriously, what seems most probable to you?

I do however think that humility is an admireable quality in a person. More specifically, the humility of accepting his or her fate of living with the human condition, here on this planet, in these times, with full awareness of own limitations. Yes I do say that awareness of own limitations is the more important attitude. There has been quite enough "positive thinking" in the human race for quite a while, thank you very much. We are not gods. We are monkeys. But we have life and we are able to enjoy the wonder of life in this world, such as it is, with all its beauty and grimness, with all its pain and pleasure; even though, because we are but monkeys, there's very little that we can truly know and understand in life.

Lastly I will say that if, like William Blake, you can see the beauty in all things and the universe in a grain of sand, you know all there is to know.

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Marquis wrote:We have a

Marquis wrote:

We have a saying in Norway: "Never try to understand other people's marriage."

(The message is that you are lucky if you can understand your own.) "Discussing other people's relationships" is essentially nothing but gossip - and being so arrogant that you think it is for you to "fix" them just makes you a prick. "Sexual hysteria" is not whatever you do in the moment, it is a state of being lost in the labyrinth of the mind because you are unable to face the wind of fear that comes with absolute and uncompromising sexual honesty.


Eh... sexual honesty? I find it strange, most of our people are in their 40's, married, sometimes even retired. Their sexuality is their last problem. Being naked with someone in bed is actually the most simple, most basic form of sexuality. There are much more complex and diffcult, but also rewarding levels of relationship. These people mostly achieved it all, so now they actually have the time to hang out together and share their interests in our group. This is exactly what we do - we understand relationships - predominantly ours, and then we can understand and advise to other people. People keep calling, writing and visiting us, to get OUR advice on whatever problem they have. Every week, almost every day, there is something and someone.
Everyone who really behaves according to our advice, solves their problems. We do not bother people with esoteric theory, we simply put it into terms of behavior, that are naturally comprehensible to everyone. Of course, we mainly specialize at people of certain type - self-reliant, intelligent adults, willing to change themselves towards the better. Otherwise we have to tell everyone our advices in such a way, that they will comprehend them as much as they currently can. It's also true, that sewer diggers and homeless people don't usually seek our advice Smiling
 

Marquis wrote:
Rather than regurgitating Freud, I am playing on Reich's ideas. No matter how you rationalise whatever it is you are doing, it can always be traced back to a sexual motivation. Always. And you know why? Because we are biological animals and our only "purpose" is to deliver our genes to the next generation. There is nothing more than that. Sexuality is the engine of life. Yes the mind is there and it's sooooo tempting to flex it, just like it is tempting for any fucking peacock to strut the tail. The human mind serves no other evolutionary purpose than to enhance our sexual market value - just like the peacock's tail - in the eyes of a potential mate. Not acknowledging this only makes you look ridiculous; like a child in an adult body that he (or she) dosn't know how to use.
If this is really what you say, then I can not take your opinion seriously. Because if sexuality is really behind everything, then such a hypothesis is not falsifiable. Someone here recently wrote an interesting parable. Let's say there is a fire in the house. When the firemen and policemen investigate the cause of fire, what do they find out? If you would be there, you would say: "Oxygen was the cause. Remove the oxygen, and everything will be fine! Oxygen out, safety in!" A really reasonable action would be to point out the faulty electric plug.
Even if you don't proverbially suggest to remove the proverbial oxygen, (which we know is impossible and undesirable) your stance is even more useless. It is literally a tautology, an expression which is always true, unfalsifiable. We can just as well ignore it.

I am glad you like Wilhelm Reich, I like him as well. But I'm interested only in his later research. Because, sexuality is a product of our endocrine and nerve system, and therefore it is necessarily linked with aetheric energy, participating on our biologic processes. Sexual energy is part of bodily aetheric energy. However, this is only related to lower part of our body, below solar plexus chakra. All the rest of body operates with higher energies - emotional, mental and transcendental (spiritual). Reich also constructed devices, that heal by this aetheric mechanism, and also work with the plentiful atmospheric and cosmic aether. (which is also what Nikola Tesla did) Really, focusing on sexuality according to Reich is like focusing only on penis of the Michalangelo's David statue. Anyone who wants to participate in true occultism, must have a healthy sexuality, not suppressed, but not exaggerated. The true masters have the ability to rewire themselves and convert sexual energy into creative mental energy. Those who fail to manage these things in proper time, will either leave esoteric circles temporarily to sort out their life, or become neurotic and fall out anyway.

Marquis wrote:
Luminon wrote:
And even if there is evil committed, much of it is well-meant, just imperfectly carried out.
 I do not subscribe to the idea that your intent justifies your means. In my opinion, what you actually do is all that matters. Everything you think, all that you sit and talk about, every last idea, opinion and illusion that you carry around with you; it's all irrelevant. All that matters is what you do. That is what you will be judged by. And that is how it should be.
Of course, the means should be a part of the intention. For example, Adolf Hitler wanted a lot of good stuff for Germans. In other words, he wanted to enslave the rest of world, starting with rich Jews who's teeth could finance his war. The intention must visibly include and reflect the means, this is the intelligent way of doing things.
In my opinion, a good intention is the most important thing. It's the basis of everything. If a good intention may lead to bad actions, what other intention should I have? Smiling  If I have good intention, then I can eventually, sooner or later achieve a good result.
 

Marquis wrote:
 
Luminon wrote:
Do you think, that the world is full of ugly, worthless and stupid people?

Yes I do. However, I don't see that as a problem. It's just how things are. They have no more or less right to exist and express themselves than I do. Nor do I see any point in being all up in arms and complaints about something I need not subject myself to. They are just animals doing their thing, and they can easily be avoided. It's not for me to decide what people should and shouldn't do. As long as you don't step on my blue suede shoes, so to speak, you can be and do whatever the fuck you like as far as as I'm concerned.

Proverbially said, no man is an island. We all live in a society, where we can not avoid interaction with others, permanently. Spiritual development does not progress by sitting alone and meditating for years. It progresses by being among people, enduring and transforming their moods, supporting those who need it and putting in check those who can't handle themselves. There are many kinds of emotional intelligence and people must gradually learn to express all of them, not exaggerated and not subdued, but harmonically.

There is one ability that people have, which makes them worthy. It is the potential of development to unlimited greatness. This development, once it is affirmed, is irreversible. This development is exponential. This means, that for millions of years it's slow, but suddenly, when the mental capabilities develop, the curve goes sharply up. Today, millions of people are ready for this accelerated personal development. They are also those, who can transform their surroundings, their institutions and nations into areas, which will gradually improve as well. We don't have to be dirty, selfish apes that only want food and sex. With a correct society, that provides just enough of adequate food and sex we can move on to developing even greater abilities and skills, that today most of us (except esotericists) can't imagine. We must stop wasting these resources on consumer society, which does not make anyone smarter.
 

Marquis wrote:
Luminon wrote:
Narcissism? I'd say that esotericism, with it's emphasis on emotional hygiene, self-control, observation and development, cultivation of virtues and uprooting of vices treats narcissism as any other vice of character that must be disarmed and removed.

I find that to be a hysterically funny statement. I encourage you to look at it closely and see if you can spot the irony.

We're not stupid, we know that actions matter too. We measure our value by the rate how the rest of world lives. This is still pretty much inadequate, so we don't have the reason to be conceited. You worry needlessly.
However, it is also a fact, that people in our group solved most of the problems that life can offer, which gave them time and capabilities to participate in esotericism. This is a high-level activity, that people usually don't begin, until they're over 40, have their job, career, savings, house, spouse, children, and so on.


 

Marquis wrote:
Luminon wrote:
they're modest, altruistic, level-headed and do not use their powers just to show off, even if he can fix a spine fracture in a moment

Apart from the fact that I see nothing admireable in being modest and altruistic (both are pretentious and narcissistic delusions, as far as I can see), 

If modesty are pretentious and narcissistic delusions, then what isn't? Smiling I want to be (and I am, to some degree) altruistic and even self-critical, but I don't want to be narcissistic. What should I do? Isn't that another unfalsifiable tautology of yours? Smiling
However, even though I'm so selfless, altruistic, modest and perhaps idealist, I'm ready to admit that there are completely different skills, that I completely suck at. You see, my point is, that there can be people like that, who in return are undeveloped in areas, that other people commonly are. I'm far from being perfect, my bad side is just much different to majority of people. You should see me how I jump to the ceiling with anger, if someone says something that might infer that I am incompetent in something, in which I am factually competent. "Did you salt the potatoes?" for example Smiling

 
Marquis wrote:
I find it outright reprehensible that some person who claims to be able to fix a spine fracture in a moment isn't working at the local ER. Why is that, do you think? Because he doesn't want to impress the masses? Because his magical energy would only become depleted and his pure chakras would become polluted by all that grunt work? Or maybe because he's full of shit? Seriously, what seems most probable to you?
I don't know how much do you know about medicine, but I'd expect you to be familiar with the estabilishment. Every medicinal practitioner must have an academic degree in medicine and  must be a registered member of Medicine Chamber. Now the important part: There are lawfully accepted methods and substances by which the doctors are allowed to heal people. If they use something that is not accepted by these rules, they can lose their license and may be even locked up in jail. (this is exactly what happened to Wilhelm Reich) This has absolutely nothing to do with their success or failure. I'd say that being succesful is much more risky, because doctors in market society understand it as dangerous concurence and they gather their forces to find a dirt on the opponent. Market medicine does not focus on making people healthy, it needs to produce a lot of customers, that will consume a lot of medicine, even if that makes them suffer. Healing people is forbidden. Therefore, it is impossible for a healer to work together with medicinal doctor. However, we know local practical doctors, that sympathize with alternative medicine secretly, because they saw it's positive effects on their own patients.

As you would read in the books about Daskalos, this did not make him any less available to patients. Quite opposite, working completely for free he accepted many times per day visits of people with various serious physical and mental conditions. The only patients who could not visit him, were those scared away by slandering and hateful preaching of local church authorities against him.
Daskalos also had to deal with people, trying to disprove his clairvoyance by showing him photographs of their supposedly dead relatives, who were alive and hidden nearby in their car, or photographs of supposedly healthy relatives, who were in fact rotten with cancer from top to toe. Furthermore, the sociologist  Markides describes how Daskalos clairvoyantly felt and respected the desire of relatives to not tell the dying person his true condition, if that person would fall into hysteric fear of death. There are many, many such a cases, that Kyriacos S. Markides writes about.


 

Marquis wrote:
I do however think that humility is an admireable quality in a person. More specifically, the humility of accepting his or her fate of living with the human condition, here on this planet, in these times, with full awareness of own limitations. Yes I do say that awareness of own limitations is the more important attitude. There has been quite enough "positive thinking" in the human race for quite a while, thank you very much. We are not gods. We are monkeys. But we have life and we are able to enjoy the wonder of life in this world, such as it is, with all its beauty and grimness, with all its pain and pleasure; even though, because we are but monkeys, there's very little that we can truly know and understand in life.
The nature of life is change. There is nothing solidly granted in life. There are no 100% limitations. Maybe we are monkeys, but monkeys with potential of becoming gods, and with various degrees of achieving that potential. It is a historical truth, that the progress is always made by fools who don't accept limitations, dreamers who ignore them, and troublemakers, who revolt against the status quo. And of course, by practical idealists who carried that out. Rather than limitations, we should be aware of means to overcome them, as humanity overcame all limitations before. That is the constructive thinking.
Furthermore, there is a great portion of humanity, that knows no beauty of life, only grimness. And smaller portion, that has the beauty and pleasure exaggerated into absurd levels, that hinder development as well. This is a state of global disorder and imbalance, that benefits only few people, instead of all. Thanks to the malleable nature of life, we can achieve the dynamic state of balance, that will fulfill everyone's basic needs. With our basic needs met, the humanity can make tremendous progress as a whole, which will covince even you of it's true, inner divine potential, when you will see it in practice.

 

Marquis wrote:
Lastly I will say that if, like William Blake, you can see the beauty in all things and the universe in a grain of sand, you know all there is to know.

Wait, aren't you a mystic after all?
Rather than seeing the beauty in a real grain of sand, I'd rather see it in the cosmic grain of sand, that our planet is. Unfortunately, it will not be there, until we make it. This is why the human beauty, love, justice, altruism, brotherhood and such things are so rare. They don't grow on trees, they're literally artificial, someone must first make them.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Luminon wrote:Being naked

Luminon wrote:
Being naked with someone in bed is actually the most simple, most basic form of sexuality.

 

In my opinion, that's got fuck all to do with sexuality - other, perhaps, than in its most rudimentary form (the egg stage). Puppy love. Kissy kissy holding hands and maybe some tantric love-love idiocy later. The awkward fumbling of teenagers. If you really want to feel, with your entire body and all its senses, where the volcanic source of human energy recides, you need to examine the multilayers of stale lies and bullshit which is covering up your basic and most fundamental need to fuck - born in the most primeaval rage imaginable.

Look, if you want to make the connections to where the human race got castrated and destroyed, this is here you need to look. There is no spiritual realm. There is ony the - as Reich would have said - orgone energy. You say we have the potential to become gods. I say that is sexual hysteria. What we do have, however, is the ability to become balanced. We have time and opportunity, within our lifetime, to sort this mess out and return to our nature. We can find our harmony as stupid, crude beasts - but gods we ain't. FFS, look at human history! Is there even anything in there that suggests human divinity? One could wish that we had the wit and wisdom to just enjoy life, like the higher primates do, but no; we humans are stuck with the legacy of being a carrion-eating, predator ape, that for some odd reason grew an oversized brain that has since mostly been used for playing social games of dominance and submission as a hidden agenda in the greater game of getting laid.

Take yourself as an example. A young male in his sexual prime - but he's got no fucking clue what to do with that energy, so he spends (and wastes) it on la la fantasy and silly imagination. You could have connected with the eartquake within, but you have chosen to invest your energy into pointless gobbeldygook about "higher aethers" and asinine shit like that. What a waste! There is no "aether", you silly sausage. But there is a profound wish to believe that all this brain power has some other kind of meaning than that of being a sexual attractor. Except it doesn't. You have no control over this. No free will. The tidal waters within you have no use for "you" - they only need your passerby body in order to continue the even more pointless game of recombining genetic structures. Yo are wasting your time on all this "spiritual" idiocy. Look at them! Then apply the ultimate test: If they cannot produce sexy music they have no game like that. They are frigid and impotent.

Look, most men don't like sex very much. Sure enough, they WANT it, but they can't help that and it makes them feel all kinds of shame and guilt. Like they are bad for being the beasts that they are. And this is precisely where religions and whatever have you of "spiritual" nonsense pipe dreams are doing their greatest damage: They are awkward about sex. They shroud it either in mysteries of guilt and shame or in mysteries abouit kissy-kissy holding hands. And it all amounts to a pile of steaming bullshit.

I don't know if there's any point in going on with this discussion. To me, you are about 8 years old in your sexual maturity and I find it morally wrong to force my views upon you. I cannot help you, nor would I even if I could. You have a major problem, but it's YOUR problem: You just don't get it. There is nothing special about you --- unless you can actually find some girl or boy (whatever you prefer) to get really really dirty with --- and by virtue of that laying claim to have conquered a threshold of limitation within you --- which is that of dread. The fear of the physical, the darkness, the unknown.

 

Can I also request that we stop cutting up and "answering" the post from just before? Okay? No more quoting, only free associational writing on the post that went just before. I personally quite HATE that clip-and-comment type of thing. Okay? So from now on, no quoting, just free form writing; as inspired by the spirit of the comment that went right before it.

 

Since you mentioned electronica, here's the bonus video:

 

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

http://www.kinkspace.com


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Honestly, I have to laugh

Honestly, I have to laugh how you do not listen (read) to me at all.

I have felt various degrees of love to one person, place, group, whole world, or even just like that. Sometimes, I literally lose my ego, in a single, overwhelmingly self-transforming mystical trip of absolute, unconditional love. It was (and is) better than alcohol, ganja, causal sex and any other form of entertainment. The only thing that could be better, would be fucking someone, (female, is that clear?!) who I'd love like that.
If you would be in my mind at these moments, you would find yourself blissful beyond your imagination. Perhaps only after-orgasm state can be compared to that, if I'd use your terms, but that would have to be one hell of an orgasm.
This has no downs, only ups and normal state. I do not suffer with depressions, as opposites of my stages of bliss. I'm easy to get along with in normal state, but ocassionally, I feel this unconditional love to any person I see, everyone. It's a tale that never ends, it's the peace that we seek. And because I am capable of loving regardless of circumstances, there is a different approach I take to life. I experience love as separated from sexuality. Sure it can be and should be combined, but I get dissolved in bliss of love, without getting hard.
But this is not under my control. It's a spontaneous state of being, in some weeks I'm more prone to it than other weeks, and it's specially stimulated after meditation. Some weeks I feel this loving presence in the back of my mind, ready to flood me with bliss. This is not an emotion, neither it is a relaxation, this is a state of being. I feel tangible waves of it, emanating from the heart area. My hypophysis is buzzing with energy. I never said that I imagine or want to imagine anything. I am already like that, experiences come to me, and I welcome them.

Of course I don't go around telling people that I love them, or even worse, that Jesus loves them (I shouldn't spread gossip),  not at all. If I'm asked, I coldly, objectively describe my state of being. But if I can do something for somebody, give a helpful advice, encourage someone, poit out someone's achievement, make them laugh, help them spend a good time, and so on, I do it, and gladly. I can also very well understand the words of people like Buddha, Terrence McKenna, or certain mystics that you don't know. Bliss and love independent on sexuality are real, physical phenomena. Just look. It's not a pipe dream, it's the way how we can rewire our brains, to greater benefit of ours and humanity. We don't live on savannah anymore, we shouldn't watch out for predators, steal women, bash each other heads with sticks, and form tribes. Instead, we received this powerful big and shiny front brain, to tame the older areas of brain and survive in the changed environment. We can now  carry out great ideals, that will allow us to solve global problems. The ancient tendencies are powerful, but following them would be foolish. AK47 is not a wooden stick, and uranium is not a stone.

Yes, perhaps everything (starting with our survival) stands on sexuality. But then sexuality is like a foundation of a skyscraper. There is much more to life, than just that. By the way, I don't understand how human race may be castrated (even proverbially) if there is an overpopulation and fornication is not a mortal crime in most of the world. But I'd like to talk with your brain, not with your something else.
I'm not less sexually mature than anyone else, I just know well what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a girl that has a brain and is not afraid to use it. There are certain personality traits, that I recognize as highly attractive. Physically, I just want her not fat and not ugly, that's all. You understand, I can't waste my genes, money, time and verbal skills on someone with empty head.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Laffin'

Dude, I must say that you have the charms with you. I think you're well funny.

Let me start with "the foundations of a skyscraper". I don't like tall buildings. I will never ever, for any reason, go above the third floor (counting the ground floor as first) of any building, ever. Nor will I use elevators or escalators, for any reason, ever. It simply won't happen. I don't acknowledge the existence of any floors above the third. Also, I can hardly imagine anything more ugly than tall buildings (unless they are pyramids). It is like the quintessence (which BTW is the classical fifth element) of human folly. But that's just one of my personal quirks. (I have many.)

I have noticed that you have "zeitgeist" linked in your signature line. I was well impressed with their first movie... and I thought they were daring, young revolutionaries... who were taking no prisoners in their courageous exposee of how society's mechanisms are lulling us all into a dream... but it kind of fell apart as soon as they introduced that nazi fantasy they call "the venus project". I just felt sick to my stomach watching that sinister old man and that absurd *blink blink* woman talking about eugenics and race theories - without, of course, ever being as blatant and honest that the nazis were - and probably without even being aware of what tyrannical forces they are ivoking. But the memes fit. The end product of that line of thought is the extermination camps. Anyway, fuck that shit. It's never going to happen anyway. I think those guys severely underestimate just how evil and demented the human monkey is.

Thinking about it, I must say that I don't really know how many sexual partners I have had. I will estimate it at about 500. (And that's quite conservative.) But most of that happened many, many years ago... back in the day when I thought I was HAWT. Nowadays, I only indulge with my one girlfriend (not really an appropriate term, but whatever) and we are going to unprecedented and unimaginable places. But the point is that we are travelling companions like that. Neither she nor I could have done this with anyone else. We are synchronised to the point of hardly having to talk with eachother at all. One quick glance of eye contact transfers more megabytes of information than a thousand years of babble would do with anybody else. I like it like that.

So this is my statement: There is no such thing as "spirituality". There is only sexuality. And by "sexuality" I mean pragmatic and hands-on amour - full metal jacket - not ideas about this or that, and much less the romantic, chanting hippie fantasies of whatever sentimental dreamers have you. The fact of the matter is that this energy of the mind and the body is so fierce and so powerful that if you can harness it and exercise some degree of control over it, the sky is - quite literally - the limit. It doesn't take much effort to be all up your own ass with various strategies about the self... fuelled by an internal dialogue about how the world is wrong and you are right... but it takes some solid brass balls to give up all your ideas of self control in order to create a space for another human being in your life... at the level of total and uncompromising trust. I call that grace. Or liberty. Or why not love?

Speaking of love, I will say that loving everybody amounts to the same as loving nobody. It's worthless. Why should you love (or hate) people you don't even know? That makes no sense to me at all. Leave them alone and stop passing judgments on people you will never even have any kind of relation to. They are neither right nor wrong (and neither are you) - they are just monkeys who are doing what monkeys do. As are you. Tear down the icons and the symbols and all the stale, life denying traditions. Cast in on the scrap heap of history where it rightly belongs.

You may not understand this... but the universe is perfect... and it is evolving exactly as it should. In all its gruesome glory. I am not important. You are not important. In a hundred years, this will all be forgotten. But right now we are alive in this mysterious world and we have the opportunity to take action. That's all.

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

http://www.kinkspace.com


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Yeah, it's true, I'm a funny

Yeah, it's true, I'm a funny guy, whenever possible. Humour is anesthetic.
Personal quirks? Yeah, I noticed.
I see nothing wrong about the Zeitgeist project. Certainly nothing about eugenics or stuff like that. Basically, it's doing right what we've been so far doing wrong. It's curious how a different organization of society is so easily mistaken for nazism or communism, that's perhaps because they were the only different forms of society seen recently. But it's interesting how easily you can find tyranny in Venus project, but don't count 10 millions  that die annually just by hunger, thanks to our own dystopia of corporate rule over resources and one-day democracy.

As for your statement, the fact you haven't discovered spirituality, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Quite oppositely, it exists, but it has not much to do with sexuality. Searching for it requires a lot of time, one can hardly find it, when being busy fucking like rabbit. As spiritual beings, we are not sexual at all, not even biologic. Sex and genders are needed to make physical vehicles, that's the most of how much the spiritual world cares about sex.
But just as there is energy that can make you jump, or sexual energy that turns people on, there are even higher, more subtle forms of energies. These energies are carriers of emotions, thoughts, ideals, psychological archetypes, collective subconsciousness, and so on. For me, spiritual energy is more tangible than sexual energy for you. What you mastered in your life is only a part of what is there to be discovered.  This is why there are many lifetimes for that process of discovering and mastering.
By the way, Wihlelm Reich discovered, that this energy was coming from surroundings. There are orgone batteries, that make it accumulate within, they let the energy in, but not out. There are even whole rooms, built in such a way. It depends only on used materials. Orgone is a real energy around us, that was never disproven, and the technology is today replicated by many amateurs. It's a natural phenomenon, there is nothing sexual about it. Maybe also nothing spiritual, but that depends on use of it.

Btw, loving everybody, that is not exact term. It is feeling love either without a subject, or towards everything and everyone around, and at the same time, feeling unity with these people, no matter if I know them or not, that doesn't matter. It's not worthless, quite opposite, it's much better than hating people, or not feeling anything at all. If I'd be a manager or state officer, I'm sure you would want there someone who loves people unconditionally.  So far, most of these people just stuffs state money into their own pockets by billions.
But you're wrong about judgements. I do not judge people, I avoid that subconsciously, to the point of almost wearing pink glasses. Don't judge others and you won't be judged, that's what I recently wrote. The love I feel is unconditional, there is no judgement of right or wrong towards people. This is how I receive this love, from it's source, for free, so I give it for free. However, there is a very strong sense of what is optimal and not optimal for the people, for society and our civilization. As for my icons and symbols, you know nothing about them, and that I have none. My creed is, those who are worthy of worship don't demand it, and those who demand worship, don't deserve it. I don't follow traditions, I explore what is still meaningful in them. For example, I can feel chakras on my body quite tangibly, this is why I agree with the millenia old tradition of chakras on people's bodies. It's as simple as that. I believe only in what I can get my hands on, it's not my fault that I can get my hands on spiritual phenomena Smiling

You may not understand this too, but the universe is perfect, in it's cyclically gradual evolving. We, as indivisible parts of this evolving process, have our importance, we belong to the universe and contribute to it's degree of perfection.
But in a hundred years, nothing will be forgotten. Quite oppositely, our age will be known as the age of barbarianism, that ended abruptly and took a sharp turn, just short of global destruction.

And I almost forgot, this is what I understand as psychedelic, electronically-shamanic music. Thanks, german hippies.

 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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I am now sitting here,

I am now sitting here, scratching my head, wondering if you know what "entheogens" really are.

Well, on the other hand, you did mention Terence McKenna... so perhaps that explains a few things then?

Anyway, let's look at some things that we can agree on. (Or, at least, so I hope.)

I think we both acknowledge that we are living in a world which we can only perceive in a very small part, due to the limitations of our human form. For instance, the tiny slit of electromagnetic waves that we call 'visible light' is a major foundation for all the data that we process in our minds in order to create an image which we call 'reality', but which is really only a map of reality, such as it is relevant to the human animal. However, being aware of this predicament means that we can devise strategies for the purpose of investigating phenomenons that we can't directly perceive through indirect means, such as radio telescopes and electron microscopes.

We can probably agree on the value of having and wielding a 'common sense' - which is to say, an intuitive understanding of what it means to be human at a level which is easily understood by anyone (provided that they want to). For instance, common sense dictates that we don't waste too much breath on hair splitting arguments over how to define certain words and concepts and rather use our energy on getting to the fucking point.

Then there is the concept of imagination, which I am personally very fond of. We probably need not discuss at any great length the relative difference in nature between the person who thinks a thought and the thought itself. Insofar we are talking aout abstractions, I have no problem with calling that the 'spiritual' aspect of man. But please observe that I find this acceptable only in the philosophical sense; that there is a world of things (res) and a world of thoughts and imagination (nous). This is were the virtue of discipline enters the equation. As a tool for maintaining your sobriety. We can probably agree on the idea that it is not a good thing to have a very imaginative mind while at the same time having a very undisciplined mind - because this can very easily lead you into delusion. The key culprit in that picture is the human propensity to 'believe'.

In my opinion, the act of believing is an emotional thing. It is a choice you make, based in a perceived need to believe; in order for your map of the world to make sense. However, in a more objective context, we will observe that 'beliefs' are not valid data, they are emotionally based choices of how to interpret the relation between nous and res, or map and terrain if you like. A relevant synonym for this process is the popular expression of 'jumping to conclusions'.

In my opinion, the emotionally based act of jumping to conclusions is a symptom of an undisciplined mind. On the other hand, it must be clear that each and every one of us will every day form decisions and take actions based in insufficient data which we prop up with beliefs (or assumptions) because this is necessary in our daily course of life. Some times we are proven right, other times we are proven wrong. But these are not cosmic and undisputable rights and wrongs, they are conditions that we desire to align with (or not), which may have a different appearance to other people. Hence, our beliefs are personal and meaningful to us insofar they serve such a purpose. However, all beliefs that we harbour which aren't necessary in the process of aligning with 'that which is personally right for us' (in the dynamic sense) must be considered excessive. In a word, they are superstitions.

Some will claim that they need their superstitions. Fine. I will not argue with that. We all have irrational idiosyncrasies that we need in order to live the way we want to live - but there is a fine line here. Again, this is about having a disciplined mind... so much so that we understand that whatever we chose to believe is not necessarily relevant to anybody else. Even if we belong to some more or less organised group of 'believers', we ought to understand that there's a big difference between debating data that has been meticulously collected under the strictest terms of discipline, and then verified through objective measurments and corroboration, and debating emotionally founded ideas and beliefs.

Therefore it is futile to debate 'spirituality' as something which even half ass approaches objective and disciplined terms for being accptable as anything but human peculiarities of some dubious charm and amusement value, but no other real merit than that. None of the bizarre mumbo jumbo of conspiracy theorists, or whatever imaginative navel gazers and fathful devotees to symbols and structures of authority have you, matter as much as an iota in the communal work; for humanity as a whole, of creating a better map over the reality which constitutes our human condition; that we call science. Perhaps some irrational left field anomaly here and there can serve as a spark of inspiration for someone's real work of science every now and then - so it isn't entirely useless to discuss far out ideas and beliefs - but again, all imagination and no discipline only creates a fruitloop.

BTW, I fucking HATE hippie techno and 'trance dance'.

Some inspirational music from my point of view:

 

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

http://www.kinkspace.com


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Yes, I do know what

Yes, I do know what entheogens are. I didn't try them, (except of ganja) but I got the idea about how ayahuaska needs MAO inhibitor to prevent nausea. And I know that THC was with humanity for so long, that it has evolved it's own receptor in human brain. And I know that the Bicycle day wasn't about the invention of bicycle. I like to read, you know.

I agree with the first paragraph. With the second as well, although so-called common sense is in fact very uncommon. But in the third paragraph, I think you get derailed. I understand it and all the rest perfectly, but I think you don't understand me.
People of my kind are obsessed with self-observation, self-analysis and self-improvement. We are frequently confronted with many models of behavior and thinking. That of course includes the model of belief. We are familiar with it, we in fact mostly come from strict Christian families, just like classical atheists. To us, the irrationality of faith and belief is just as obvious, as to you. There is no way we could possibly overlook that among ourselves. We have to manage with theists around us in the same way, as atheists. Our bosses and co-workers are often Christians, just like yours. Hell, we even make fun of them, just like atheists.

What I'm trying to say is, that whatever opinion we have, we base it on scientific method. Our opinion is based on personal, interpersonal, repeated, physical, long-termed and numerous observations. We create hypotheses based on that observations, try them, sort them out, and propagate what works. We can give out an idea to whole community to test in real circumstances. We just have a bigger laboratory, than common scientists.
We use our own lives as test subjects. We must be disciplined, otherwise we would get incorrect results, and our lives would be ruined. But in fact, all our lives were greatly improved and thrive. Our knowledge is systematic and fits into a general unifying theory of the universe. Some evidence is direct, some indirect, but we still get more and more direct evidence, that supports still more of the indirect evidence. String theory is basically a skeleton of it all, but the theory itself is much older, than the later independently discovered string theory. We have no more failed hypotheses, than official science has.

My group is much, much more normal than you think. I'm worried how little you know about us. I think you've got a fixed idea, that the world is divided on believers and non-believers. You are a non-believer, therefore I must be a believer, right?
Well, I personally think that the world is divided on observers and non-observers. I am an observer, and you are a non-observer. The so-called non-physical phenomena tickle my nerve ends, the signal travels to the brain, is processed there, and becomes an observation.
Your brain probably filters away these signals, together with 99% of signals it processes. If you would use time, effort and correct methods (like occult meditation) to increase your conscious stream of neurologic information, you would get equivalent results as me and my group. This takes just as much time and effort, as any other projects people commonly do, like studying an university or learning a foreign language.

By the way, we study psychology with great interest, discuss it among ourselves and analyze  mutually. Of course, this is esoteric psychology, not the simplistic all-sexual nonsense of yours. The psychology that you seem to have mastered is only a small, though necessary part of it. We have succesful theories, and we publish them, among those willing to learn. I will recommend you the book, once it comes out in USA. Flip a few pages in a bookstore, if you stumble upon it.

As for the music, well, I didn't have much opportunity to get into that style. I just listened to some Bach and Beethoven, but I have to say, these guys can't choose a correct key and stay with it. Laically said, the "mood" of music still changes senselessly. Furthermore, these tunes became a cultural heritage, the better parts of them already absorbed into everyone from media, so there is nothing new. Anyway, the only things that I found in my collection equivalent to that are some New Age pieces. Like this, one of my favorite piano/pseudo-classical tracks. The other are some pieces by Aes Dana and Yanni. You see, I'm not a complete barbarian, I just can't stand what the classical composers do with the music keys. I'm not schizophrenic, to change moods so quickly.


 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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You said: Quote:People of my

You said:

Quote:
People of my kind are obsessed with self-observation, self-analysis and self-improvement.

 

Yes I know. This is why I call you guys narcissists.

Don't take that the wrong way. Most people can't help themselves like that. Which is why I call them morons.

Fuck... I've been meaning to get back to this thread... but I got sidetracked by the freak show next door. Can you believe that guy? It takes on train crash proportions. You don't really wanna watch, but you GOTTA. And it can serve as an example for a point that I will now make about "beliefs". We all have the ability to let it all go like that. We can throw caution to the wind and indulge all our passing thoughts and wild-eyed fantasies as if quality is an egalitarian principle. But we won't. We just can't. Because that would be irresponsible.

Which lies at the core of why people of belief are met with such resentment: They are cheating. They think they can have it all. Let's be clear on something: You are free to go play with the fairies, but if that's your choice you have to leave the adult table forever. You will not be welcome back because you will not be taken seriously anymore. Go believe what you like! Knock yourself out! Have at it! You will still be accepted in society and you will still have all the basic human rights - but you will no longer have a voice. You are no longer a man. You are now a bitch.

The only question that remains to be asked is who's bitch you are.

FFS, it is hard to live in this world. Life is brutal. Then you die. There isn't much we can know. I understand why people resort to drink, drugs, fantasy and religion. It soothes. It takes the edge off the anxiety and pain that life is filled with. So, again, I say go right the fuck ahead. Get tranquilized. Drink the ocean. Smoke the rainbow. Go down on your knees and pray to your imaginary deity. It's OK. We understand. Just... keep the peace. Do whatever you gotta do to not be an asshole. That's really all anybody can ask of you.

[/preacher mode]

On a personal note, I think you might be underestimating me a wee bit. I have been to many strange places all over this world and I have witnessed - and been a part of - many strange and terrible things. I know what the human nature is made from. I can see it in their eyes. I can smell it on their skin. You may be able to fool yourself, but you can't fool me. I can taste the little molecules in the air. Much the same way that an animal can. The neurons, the hormones, the pheromones. I guess you can say that I relate to sex and violence much the same way that you relate to aura and aether. I know it intimately. I know how to instigate and manage it. I know where it comes from and what it does with people. I know this the same way I know how to walk and talk. It's all learned. Maybe even mastered.

So... in the jolly spirit of vamachara (google it!), I offer you what I think is a beautiful love song.

(Although I don't suppose you speak any German, so I found a version with English subtitles.)

 

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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What freak show next door?

What freak show next door? What fairies? What belief?
I'm the one who tried all sorts of alternative medicine on my own skin, I've been on various sessions for years, and I meditate regularly for almost 2 years.  I've made all possible effort to verify everything personally, on my own eyes, with people along as witnesses, and I was succesful in that effort. You've got to be kidding, there is no way a belief might sneak in.
If you really care about the subject, if you're not just a passive consumer of information from your few sources, I can recommend you the methods and techniques I found to be true and useful. I've personally investigated and experienced these things and nobody can take that from me. There is of course a whole community of people, who independently came to the same conclusion. We come to this conclusion every damn day, when something happens, that transcends physical reality. Which is quite often. For me, it's like 100 times per day, if aetherokinesis counts. When I write this, I take breaks to think and chase aether between my idle fingers, like a plasticine.

Well, it's perhaps troublesome to live in this world, but it's only a matter of practice. The life is an art, and becoming a good artist that knows the rules is essential for success. Perhaps we may not know most of secrets of the universe, but the secret of Earth life system is well within our reach. If life is brutal, then we must make it not be brutal, specially for those that really have a tough life, which is not us two. I'm one of those who know what to do. I didn't invent it, but I'm clever enough to recognize the solution, when I see it. And it involves changes in all kinds of human activities, from culture to economy. I'm not interested in things that don't work, you see. But I'm highly interested in things that work, no matter if they're dense-physical or not.
And if you didn't notice, I don't pray, is there a cross hanging on my neck? Please don't be so stuck in that believer/unbeliever mindset.

I HOPE that I underestimate you, because you're the weirdest personality I've seen in a long time. Advanced in some aspects, but... let's say, old-fashioned in others. And by old-fashioned, I mean a couple of millions of years.
But hopefully you see, that human nature is multi-faceted. You might have seen strange and terrible things, related to sex and violence. On the contrary, I've met people, who are completely different. Sex and violence is something, that we don't have to tackle anymore. We have all these things conquered, so we can explore even greater and more beautiful aspects of humanity. I've been telling you the strange things, like about the biologic aether, that dances in my hands like jellyfish. So tell me. What strange and terrifying things have you seen? Change as many names or personal details as you like, but give me an idea. Because, if I have seen things that transcend materialistic worldview, what possibly more amazing could you see? You certainly raised my curiosity.

As for smelling the feromons in the air... well, that's diffcult to believe. On the other hand, I have an exam season now and I've been cheating on oral exams. I got tuned to the teacher's minds and I had let them to pull the answers from my subconsciousness. I've repeated the trick with one my friend. That girl is pretty good at understanding symbols, and when she understood a symbol, I understood it along with her, because I stood just next to her. So if that's possible, then who am I to distrust the mere feromons?


As for the song, of course I know Rammstein, although I don't know german language. It's nice and inventive. Although, I'm not really impressed with death, dying and dead people, you know, I've been through regression therapy and I've seen myself reincarnated. My research had stripped the mystery off this.
If you don't like the hippie techno as you call it, what about something harder? Watch out for the screaming.

 

 

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Okie-dokie. Where were

Okie-dokie. Where were we?

Let's start with meditation. I have been doing that with regularity, focus and discipline for... what? 32-35 years now? Something like that. (I was very chaotic in the beginning.) I have also practiced martial arts for equally long (but I have lost all interest in the excitement of fighting by now). No pansy ass shit like judo, kung fu or karate. It's been full contact kickboxing, muay thai and MMA disciplines. Hard and fast bloodsport, right on your nose. I have also been practising relatively extreme sexual sadomasochism for all my life. I know how the human body and mind works. I am not afraid of anything any longer. I have been slashed, stabbed, bludgeoned and shot. I have at least a 1000 scars from fights all over my body. In many ways, I am a horrible creature. There is no shred of innocence left in me. At this day and age I am a very very crafty animal indeed.

But none of that amounts to a heap of dung. It's all just folly.

What really counts is to be able to appreciate this world for what it is, just as it is, without passing any kind of personal judgment on how things woulda, shoulda, coulda been in a more ideal setting. To me, that is just insane. Who am I? Nobody. Where am I going? Nowhere. I was born here on this earth and this is where I shall die. I know nothing beyond that. And I am not terribly impressed with the demented, evil monkeys we call the human race. I say this without believing for a second that I am any better or worse than anyone else. I am crazy too. We all are.

Speaking in terms of 'spirituality' - the subject of this discussion - I say it is a figment of our imagination. There is no spiritual realm. There are no higher dimensions. This is all there is. This world and all the strange and terrible, but sometimes almost paifully beautiful things therein. How can that not be enough of a mystery in and of itself? It takes a very jaded and bored spirit of the individual to wish it all away just to clutch at straws for the ignoble purpose of escaping the ignorant and ambiguous destiny of being born a man, destined to die a man.

I get off on art, poetry, theatre. I get off on naked nature. (But the affairs of "civilized" men are tediously predictable and offensively silly.) I crave salt water, rain, blood, dirt, open spaces and sexual depravity the likes of which you wouldn't believe. It's not much of a kick for me to be alone and explore the intricacies of my own navel. I know myself in and out. Meditation Schmeditation. I can even control my dreams, FFS. Nowadays I am more concerned about exploring the event horizon of existence with a girlfriend who is every bit as fierce and uncompromising as myself. I call that love... and I declare it to be the greatest thing any human being can experience.

Juno Reactor? Ahahahahaha! Oh come on... gimme a fuckin' break...

Try this on for size:

 

 

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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Well... Meditation? You did

Well... Meditation? You did it for 32-35 years? Please tell me how. It really matters. There are many kinds of meditation of various form and effectivity. My personal guess is, that you did some form of power meditation - focusing on the center of solar plexus. Or possibly, something related to tantra and two lover chakras. I guess it was not a bhakti meditation (focusing on heart, love etc...) nor focusing on ajna chakra. (forehead, 3rd eye, etc...) You seem to devote your life to control over the lower-than-heart areas.

There is of course nothing wrong about it. You might end up really badly sooner or later, if you wouldn't do what you do. But be assured, that this is not nearly everything there is. Once you master something, you must move further, to learn something new and different. There will be never end to the discoveries in nature, physics and human consciousness. So far, your consciousness was for decades focused on one area, and avoided higher areas. This is natural, one can't master everything in one lifetime. This is why we have many thousands of lifetimes, but that is another story. The point is, that human consciousness can work on various vibratory rates, just like radio. Some people have greater frequency scale, some lower, but that can be trained. The more slowly it vibrates, the nearer it is to functions like reproduction, sexuality, emotionality and combat. The higher it vibrates, the more it is concerned with other functions, like emotional aspiration, love, devotion, or even abstract imagination, and bliss, something totally disembodied and minimally related to physical existence. In rare advanced cases, all the sexual energy is converted onto mental creative energy. Because, there is no sexual energy. There is only a creative energy, commonly used for sexual creativity.

The meditation I do is special. It is focusing on ajna chakra, or.. energetic extension of pineal gland, if you want to call it that way. It is basically Laya Yoga, but performed on master level. It is 10-20x more effective than any other kind of meditation. (it depends on how skillfully it is done) Therefore, 2 years of it equals to 20-40 years of common meditation. There are technical and historical reasons why it works like that, which I won't go into now.
The point is, that I meditate and live in such a way, that I necessarily 'discovered' something that you didn't. It is very common that other people, not accustomed to extremely high vibrations of consciousness and energy in their brain, simply fall asleep. Their brain can't bear the energy and shuts down, like they would be whacked on head. They indeed are - by very strong energy, although they might not feel it. Once they learn to feel it, they will also feel how it pummels their brain. It is really like streams of plasma entering your head, swirling inside with loud, characteristic hissing noise, and flowing downwards, through throat and heart. It is fortunately possible to increase the consciousness even more and leave these feelings behind, for greater comfort.

It is not fun, although the energy is sometimes sweet and pleasant. It is a work. The energy is transformed through me and released for the good of the world, although I have a benefit from letting it pass through me. Spiritual energy can be inwardly seen, felt, but also inwardly heard. At the times of work with the flow of energy, in meditation or otherwise, it is pretty obvious to me, that it has various qualities. The energy of lower chakras has low vibration, regardless of how intense it is. This low vibration is felt as such, when it's seen it has reddish color, and when it's inwardly heard, it sounds like deep humming of a flaming furnace. (I have one at home, so I know)

However, the energy of head chakras is quite different. It's sound has so high frequency, that it's like a soft screech or hissing of air under high pressure. Therefore, it is obvious to me, that you are too narrowly focused on the lower chakras, (that are said to be of animal origin) lower frequency of energies, and relatively primitive bodily functions. There is nothing wrong about it, but as my dad says, people shouldn't only develop their talents, but also learn something new. So if you still meditate, instead of focusing somewhere down below, try to focus at the point between your eyebrows. My personal tip is to say aloud the Great Invocation, before you start.

As I said, these lower functions, chakras, energies and so on, are of animal origin. What you do, is basically exploring, taming and using our animal heritage. This is not bad, 5000 years ago you might become a king of tribe or something. But this age has a bit different demands on human development. You can keep what you achieved, but it's good to add something new on the top of it.

I don't know how old you are, but my experience is, that when elderly people lose their ability to learn something new, they often think that they achieved all, that human being possibly can. (one case I know was a man over his 80's)

The nature of energies I transmit during meditation is various. But my favorite kind is the energy, that evokes a really pleasant feeling in any nerve it touches. It feels like rubbing one out, except that this feeling covers the surface of brain and may even stream downwards into the neck, along spine. It's really sweet. It's just like sex, just without sex, you could call that braingasm Smiling I know, meditation is a work, but it is sometimes also pleasurable. I wonder why no esotericist ever wrote about it. I'll have to be the first Smiling
 In some moments, my consciousness reached such a heights, that I completely lost the sense of self. There was the work, visions, energies, and so on, but there was no me, that could be related to all this. Majority of people in the world get close to such a states of mind only during sex. However, sex is only one of several ways to the transcendent consciousness.

Yeah, there is nothing surprising to be found, by meditating over your navel. This is why wise people meditate over their pineal gland. And this is why some
people take hallucinogens. Of course it takes them only to their subconsciousness, but that alone is enough to amaze them without end. I prefer making contact with my superconsciousness, the part of me that resides in a higher dimension of string theory, and that has an overwiew over space and time that we could compare to omniscience. The more I become in contact with this part of myself, the better and more useful person I become, and the more I can do for people around me, which is what the superconsciousness wants. As for the sexual depravities, well, enjoy them. As long as it does not involve something evil like rape (without precedent or subsequent approval) or sex with pre-pubescent children, then have a good time. But it's funny what kind of stuff can turn people on. My opinion is, the less I need, the happier I am.

Hey, you appreciate the world as it is? That makes me laugh. Gather 10 people and you'll have 10 opinions on what the world is. It's terribly conceited to say, that you know all of the world that possibly exists. I see, you spent your life searching in a certain way, and you found what was there. I spent my life searching in a different way, and I found something different. Is it so diffcult to comprenend, that all this is a part of one world? 'Search for things where they are, not where they aren't,' says my dad. You obviously searched through materialism, so you shouldn't be surprised that you didn't find spiritual phenomena. And don't be surprised if others searched elsewhere and found something else.

Please, don't try tekkno on me. One my friend listens to it, but I hear nothing more than ugly, plain sound of two-stroke engine. It reminds me of that guy from SomethingAwful.com who received on Christmas a CD of Nascar Racing sounds. Electronic music is an art. True sound engineers don't use their Trabant for percussion and all instruments. Here is something twisted. Infected Mushroom got really spoiled lately, but they do have one interesting track. The melody before the end is a truly viciously delicious, in my opinion. Wait through about 5 minutes and you will see the light. Too bad that it lasts only for about minute and half, the guys could make a fortune on that track.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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As far as I am concerned,

As far as I am concerned, there is only one form of meditation and it is about your "crown". You missed the tidbit of information I put in there, which states the purpose of meditation which is that of developing agency in your dreams. A.k.a. lucid dreaming. All that which you have described to me about aether and dancing filaments around your own body (or that of others) is right amusing because this is a common side effect of having agency in dreams. (Your waking self-consciousness becomes more like your dreaming self-consciousness and vice versa.) In the vernacular: You are hallucinating.

There are no chakras or any shit like that. Yeah yeah I know a lot of hippie motherfuckers believe so, but they are just a bunch of talking heads, and it belongs on the same shelf as Jesus rising from the dead or druids flying through the air at midnight around Stonehenge. It is rubbish. What I mean by your "crown" is the interactive neural transmitter you've got on the top of your head. It is not a chakra or schmakra or anything of the sort, it is a meaphor. Think of it as similar to the Zen concept of mushin noshin (mind no mind), which is actually a very high level of self disciplining which unites thoughts, emotions and willpower into a "singularity" of purpose. The separation of "body" and "spirit" is a dangerous fallacy.

You seem to want to stratify physical and metaphysical phenomenons into a hierarchy of higher and lower; which is the standard issue bullshit of teosophers and similar tea party little old lady types. Fucking burgeoise snobbery. The only hirarchy I acknowledge is that of achievement and merit. The three essential questions are: 1) Can you fight?, 2) Can you fuck? and 3) Can you do practical work? If talk, wishful thinking and good intentions is all that you've got, you ain't got shit. You might say that an elementary understanding of the art of building is essential; because castles built on sand wash into the sea, eventually, to quote Jimi Hendrix. Power is all that counts.

Oh and that white boy disco techno-electro thing was bloody awful.

But I did listen to it all the way. Now my ears need cleaning!

And what could be better for that purpose than some dark Scandinavian mood music?

 

 

 

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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You did the "crown"

You did the "crown" meditation? Holy shit... This is something I was always warned about. My information is, that this would cause an undesirable 'disembodiment', which would interfere with your waking consciousness. With my consciousness certainly - I could really mess up myself, if I would meditate like that. Quite oppositely, my ideal is a total sobriety and focusing a bit lower. Lucid dreams are nice, but there is nothing useful about them. What we do is shifting the consciousness from emotional to mental - therefore away from dreaming or daydreaming. The meditation I perform eliminates character's weaknesses and enhances character virtues. It has everything to do with what person I am in daily life. At some point, we literally invoke Power, Love and Intelligence into our lives. We narcissists want all three, unlike you modest Power-only guy Smiling

Whatever I perceive, I do so in full waking consciousness. If I hallucinate, then I hallucinate for last 20 years, every day, with completely realistic vividness, without any negative affection of my daily performance. But I do not hallucinate, because trained people are capable of seeing or feeling this kind of activity. If I throw my energy around like farts, intentionally or not, people will often ask me what the hell I'm doing.

Long story short, there is too much of objective activities going on, that hallucination hypothesis doesn't fit at all. What is the hallucination, anyway? The same thing as goddidit?

You know what just happened to me? It's friday and we had our meditation group right here. In the beginning, we sing 3x OM mantra. The first time, to strengthten our etheric aura and connect it with the rest of group. The other OMs are for calming down our emotions and thoughts. During the first OM, I conjured my classy etheric materia, and threw it around me, to connect with the group, as the instructions were. I didn't think much of it, let it be, and kept meditating for the next 2 hours and something. When we finished, my friend that sat just in front of me told me something. She told me, that in the beginning of meditation she was covered with some very heavy and dense 'energy', that she didn't know before, it engulfed her so much, that it got into her head and even mouth, and it was quite like a chewing gum. And so she described me exactly what I play with 100x per day. This is, AFAIK, a special kind of etheric matter infused with mental energy, something very rare and never experienced during meditation. This is something that a trained or gifted person, like me, must produce, otherwise it does not just hang around in nature, it's totally artificial.
At first, I was very confused, I didn't remember that I would do anything. Only half an hour later I remembered, that it was really me who released this 'energy' around me during the 1st OM, that is how I understood the instructions of strentghtening our group aura. Overall, my friend said, it was not unpleasant nor pleasant, just confusing, so she did soon get rid of this jellyfishy etheric substance and meditated like the rest of us.

I really don't get this belief thing. If there is a damn swirling and hissing vortex of energy stuck in my forehead like carrot in ground, (as it is right now) then who the hell is a believer???? Do you believe in the existence of your stomach or heart? Nope, you feel them as they work. And so it is with chakras, once you get etherically sensitive, it will become pretty obvious, that they are there.

As for stratifying the phenomena, it is quite obvious. Everything is energy, vibrating at a certain frequency. So these levels of vibration are a logical thing to sort out. It's just good old Hertz, FFS.
If you look at any chakra scheme of human body, what you will see? You will see my friend, Roy G. Biv! The bottom chakra is red, then it goes orange, yellow, green, and so on, to the top chakra, which is violet. If you will look at visible light spectrum, you will see the same damn thing. Red color has the lowest frequency, and violet has the highest. Every chakra vibrates for an octave higher than the lower one, and clairvoyant people see it as a different color, or hear a higher or lower pitched sound. It's just like hearing a buzzing in your home electric box, that is too a device vibrating thanks to 50 Hz of power lines. This is no bullshit, this is how the world is arranged. If some idiots say that low frequencies are evil, and high frequencies are good, that's just a misinterpretation. What is a good vibe for one person, may be too low shit for another, more advanced person. And too high or too low vibes may hurt you.

Thanks for the link on Mushin noshin. This is, I believe, very close description of what I experienced on yesterday's meditation. It was repeated, but brief experience during the last half-hour of the meditation. There was a total vanishment of ego, of thoughts, all that remained was the energies that my body transmitted at the time. There was the meditation, but there was no I that meditated. I know it doesn't give any sense, but this is how it was, for that short time. I hope I will achieve this state more often in the future.
I imagine the mental states in meditation as a ladder - the higher my mind vibrates, the higher I stand on the ladder. The level of when I am not in meditation anymore, is perceived as a water surface. If I'm below it, I am submerged in dreaming of the watery, emotional world, and I must again move higher. I must find the will to squash emotions like bugs, and shatter thoughts like glass walls. And of course, I must focus on the '3rd eye'.

1) Can YOU fight? It is not so simple. Try it, and they will lock you up for violence. Instead, fight with your personality, wits and discrimination of bullshit. Fight to estabilish yourself, but not on detriment of the innocent. Fight to protect the weak, but not to rule them. That is, what the fighting is about. Those who don't understand it, are either pansies, or bullies, subdued or overcompensated. Fighting yes, but with purpose. If the purpose is sport with an opponent, then so be it.
2) And fucking? Why not, it's just necessary to find the right person. Nowadays with overpopulation and veneric diseases fucking is not as simple as it used to be. Time to evolve, you animal, or AIDS will select you out! Smiling
3) as for practical work, I agree that wishful thinking will do nothing good and that in last 2000 years people did too much of it and nothing practical. How the hell could a religion of love and peace (Christianity) turn into a cult of blood, war and fire? That's the work of believers, who lived in their fantasy worlds and didn't see the world as it is.
This is why we tea-drinking, cookie-eating witches study these things, to apply self-improvement and living ethics in everything we do, in the tradition that you call narcissism. Every person we meet is a teacher to us. We literally learn new good behavior patterns from other people.

BY THE WAY, what was that music??? It's bloody BEAUTIFUL. I had no idea your music taste has a good moments! This is not a dark music at all, just melancholic, exactly as I like it. Wonderful atmosphere. It reminds me of one RPG from the far north and 10th century Finland, it had music a bit like that, but just small samples.
I have to pull out something that you will surely like. The album name is Life/Death, so you shouldn't be disappointed. I bought two their albums, btw. Unfortunately, most of their other music is too harsh and electronic for my ears. Vinda Hemelation was already there, but I uploaded Kaaba specially for you. Take it as an apology, LOL Smiling

 

 

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Mr. Luminon, you are an

Mr. Luminon, you are an amusing character; insofar that you display an original mix of sharp wits and delusions.

There is, however, nothing wrong with delusions. We all have them to a lesser or greater extent. The only interesting question is whether they lead you to act out in counterproductive ways. For the sake of this argument, it is little but an epistemological conundrum. How can we know that which we know? An example may be the relative difference between a craftsman and an architect, where the former has a hands-on understanding of something which an architect may perhaps not be able to do at all, other than in his mind and on the paper. A seasoned mason can build things, manually, that he may not be able to explain in terms of physics and chemistry.

Or let's talk about something seemingly random. Like the roll of a dice. We can quite accurately predict that a rolled dice will show one out of six possible results - but it is hard to be more accurate than that; unless we know all the conditions of the system (force, vector, friction, air pressure variables, etc.) wherein the roll of the dice is happening, which, although theoretically possible, is not pragmatically feasible.

In my opinion, a hallucination is a visual impression which seems to be fabricated in the observers mind without having any relation to the conditions of the system that is being observed. (If we are talking about a misinterpretation, the correct term is illusion.) But, since a hallucination obviously is connected with that which is being observed, from whence does it originate? My take on that is that it is coming from the same source as the stuff that dreams are made of. If you look a little into lucid dreaming (linked above), you will find that this correlates to the WILD principle; that is to say, a mindframe of lucid dreaming which is entered directly from a waking position, in whole or in parts of the mind. You cannot actually choose to do or not do this, once you have opened that door. All you can do is to discipline your mind so that you can reasonably deduce which is which - and this is where things start getting intresting.

It is, for instance, ridiculously easy to "read minds". Except you don' really read any mind, you are just observing the conditions of a system and applying simple laws of nature in order to deduce the outcome. Behaviour patterns is the giveaway. Observation without judgment is the key. Having opened the door to the WILD modus of lucid dreaming (and then of course some other stuff as well, for training) you have synchronised your conscious and subconscious minds (which is the whole fucking purpose of meditation) and can draw on more resources than most others are able to even imagine. It is simply a question of learning a skill, like playing the piano or learning how to swim. But there is still a significant difference between a hobby pianist who can clink out some merry tunes and a high level concert pianist. Or between an average exercise swimmer and an olympic athlete.

People are just stupid. Have you for instance ever heard of the invention of the wheel? WTF? Any idiot can figure out, through observation and experimentation, that a disc will roll down an angular surface - so you have your wheel - but it takes a leap of imagination to figure out the principle of the axelrod (which is the real invention). And yet the difference is so subtle that it is almost unnoticeable when you stand at the far end of the invention. This is because our imaginations are locked into patterns of habit.

Which leads me to my point: I don't think that the human being - Homo Sapiens - is an intelligent creature. In my opinion, intelligence is a learned skill which is by and large about discipline (but some have more talent for this than others) - and most people simply can't be arsed to ever take the trouble to evolve like that. What we are, however, is imaginative. We have a mind that allows us to imagine things that exist in another universe of discourse than does the products of our abilities to observe and relate to an objective and physical reality. Sadly, this is where our troubles begin. Being able to sort that which is observation from that which is imagination is crucial for survival in such a harsh environment as nature... but they are less necessary in the fabric of society. You get away with more bloopers nowadays than you would, say, 10,000 years ago.

This means we can allow ourselves to be sloppy with the borders between observation and imagination. We have a *belief-space*. A nonlocal environment wherein we may institute imaginary concepts that we address as much importance to as we do those that are dictated by the necessity of nature. You are, in other words, free to believe what you want. (Because there are no sabre toothed tigers that will eat your ass if you guess wrongly.) Thus began the age of the Dark Lord Moron. And the human being spiralled downwards into the sad and degenerate state of affairs that we have nowadays. We don't have any emotional connection with reality, so we invented "spirituality". WTF does that mean? Fuck all. Either everything is, or nothing is spiritual. In either case, the entire concept is a tautology. I personally do not see any significant difference between "life" and "dead matter". Nor do I see any distinction between "this universe" and "all other possible universes". All I see is modalities. Relations.

Can you see the beauty in this though?

 

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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Yeah, I'm amusing on

Yeah, I'm amusing on purpose. I'm also an extreme character, young guy with a mind of sarcastic, old professor, that is how people tell me I behave IRL. When all humans stood in queue for normality, I was the one behind counter. But tell me something for real, seriously. All that time I tried to explain to you, how I act according to my countless times confirmed physical experience. If I act according to my physical experience that I have also confirmed on other people I can not be deluded! That makes me actually totally, simply, pragmatic. And yet, this is a piece of information, that has diffculties to get to your brain. So I ask you, tell me seriously, are you aware how I describe you my pragmatism over and over? Why the hell do you think that I am not pragmatic?

I understand that I do have certain delusions, but these are solely in the area of personal relationships and dealing with people IRL. This is something that I'm not very good and experienced at, thanks to my lack of normality. But in the area of what you call spirituality, I'm very experienced and perhaps even a little talented. Therefore, I can't comprehend why do you think I have delusions in that area particularly. In my opinion, you're more likely to have delusions in that area, because you are less succesful in that. Of course, you surely are very succesful in other areas of life.

By the way, I don't get the argument about an architect and mason, and a dice. We can know things either by learning them, or by knowing them intuitively. Intuitive knowledge is the knowledge given from higher parts of human personality, (the soul) and it is a prerequisity for being a genius. The soul not only stores all experiences and abilities of previous incarnations, it can give it out in amount just right for the moment. It's higher-dimensional perspective also allows it to have certain overview over the physical reality. While a rational mind must know a dice's speed, friction, air pressure, and so on, intuitive mind  simply knows. Intuitive, or so-called higher mind, is therefore functionally superior to rational mind. But it only develops after the rational mind is developed.

As for hallucinations, I can apease you, my anomalous perception is mostly tactile. The rest is mostly auditory, and always consistent. There is no wild stuff going on, like hearing voices. I don't do lucid dreaming. My perception is predominantly etheric - related to sensitivity of nerve and endocrine system. It's not influenced by my consciousness at all. It works regardless of what mood I'm in, or if I was drunk or on cannabis, didn't matter. Only on cannabis I was much more sensitive to it, so it was actually strengthtened. So far, in all my life, I have never seen anything that would take this ability from me. Perhaps only a lobotomy or very heavy medication, but I'm not gonna get rid of that useful ability. It's actually pretty cool.

Yeah, it happens to me that I do read minds at some occasions. Except that I don't observe anything at all, at the moment, I want to know a particular idea, not the person. I don't even have to look at the person, I just need to be near, and the idea pops out into my conscious mind. Yeah, affecting the subconsciousness is the purpose of meditation, except that  consciousness is like a flashlight, and subconsciousness is like a big, dark art gallery. An enlightened person has no subconsciousness at all.
By the way, do you mean synchronizing my own conscious and subconscious minds, or the minds of me and the other person? I think you mean the first case, the second shouldn't be materialistically possible without having a cable between our heads.

I can agree with you, that people are not primarily intelligent. People are emotional, in fact, very emotionally developed. So much, that emotions are in control of them. When they communicate, they mostly exchange emotions, not as much information. Intellect is a skill that will be globally assimilated in next millenia from now.

As for the border between observation and imagination, I don't think that is a problem. We have scientific method and we have the damn common sense. A simple test can prove, if an observation is, what it seems to be. And if not, then it's pretty clear, that the observation is not verifiable. When I'm not sure, then I'm at least sure that I'mnot sure. Therefore, I can exclude the unsure information.
In a certain sense, everything is spiritual, but that is from the universe's point of view. But from human point of view, as far as humans are concerned, some things are spiritual, and some not. Spiritual is, whatever serves for development of quality of human consciousness. And that changes over historical period. Hell, maybe even christianity was once progressive for consciousness! Before it was made into a state religion, of course.

How can you not see the difference between "life" and "dead matter"? Are you blind, or something? Can a stone bite off your finger? Modalities and relations are not intelligently active and creative. However, we see two principles here. Evolution of form, and evolution of consciousness. Evolution of form is the natural selection. The form is only perfected as much as it's necessary for survival. But the evolution of consciousness progresses from a certain point (humanity) infinitely, for the sake of itself and perfection.

No, I can't see the beauty in that tune at all. It's short, chaotic, disharmonic, non-melodic, and there is nothing in the song I'd actually like on my own skin. Neither would you, otherwise you'd already be on vacations in Gaza, Baghdad or Kosovo, right? Smiling I believe I can find a beauty among noise, but it must at least a little reflect my inner reality. Music is for me the way to reflect my inner reality into waking consciousness. I don't know how about you, but within me there is no (M)mayhem or brutality going on, nothing to reflect. Of course I can appreciate some moderate noise, but my favorite avantgarde pieces are not online. I'll have to upload them some time. Until then, try this.
 

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I suggest we close down this

I suggest we close down this banter and call it 'inconclusive'.

My points are easily summed up: We - humans - are creatures made of energy-as-a-singular-purpose which interacts with energy-at-large. We are by and large ignorant about how to 'explain' this, but we are quite the clever monkeys when it comes to the practical side of things. We are also quite curious and have a propensity to, metaphorically, lift up the rocks that we can see and look under them; for no better reason than to indulge the oversized cerebral cortex's ravenous hunger for constant input of data. The only 'free will' we have - in the sense that we can use it for anything - is our creative spirit; which is ultimately a sexual energy that probably is there to transport our genetic material onwards, but it can be somewhat bent and twisted towards alternative outlets. The extent to which we are able to do this is a function of personal power. That is all.

My last (and, I think, funny) musical exchange material is this one:

 

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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Dammit, no answer again? As

Dammit, no answer again? As you wrote in your blog, you love questions. But answering something, is that too much?
The question was, if I only do what works in practice, then why do you keep labelling me as a 'believer'? The only thing I believe in is, that anyone in my place would form the same opinion.

Yeah, we human beings are energy. The nature of universe are energies, interacting with each other at every conceivable level, producing even more variety. Basically what you say. Do you think we can make the final step and THINK of ourselves as energy? Think of THOUGHTS as ENERGY?
Because, then we have to think of thoughts as real, physical forces. If we live in energetic universe, then it's the energy, or mind, that rules over the matter.

Btw, that song was more cheesy than cheddar!

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Oh I don't know... You're

Oh I don't know...

You're kind of funny with all your teenage angst, but it gets old. Sorry.

As for the "thinking" bit, I can only refer back to my Mushin Noshin.

Get yourself a girl who can fuck you up a little. That will give you some new questions.

And rock out:

 

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

http://www.kinkspace.com


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Marquis wrote: Oh I don't

Marquis wrote:

Oh I don't know...

You're kind of funny with all your teenage angst, but it gets old. Sorry.

Teenage angst? I'm gonna be 22 soon, so I guess it's better to stop. But I think it's the role I have to play here. People who lived abroad say, with every new learned language, comes a new personality. There is also a local proverb, 'You're as many times a person, as many languages you know.'
 

Marquis wrote:

Get yourself a girl who can fuck you up a little. That will give you some new questions.

Oh, I'd love to, this would solve a lot of my troubles. Nowadays I get some feedback from my female friends. And you know what they say? They say, that any potential my future girl must get a terrible feeling of inferiority, when she gets to know me. Maybe you don't know, but my IQ is relatively high, I've got shitload of talents, vast knowledge, hobbies, loving, caring personality, dangerous sense of humour, and I could go on and on. And my looks aren't that terrible, if I get a good sleep and haircut. This all makes everyone feel really inadequate. Almost no girl has the guts to compare herself to that, although I wouldn't think so. And what can I do? I will not make myself a lobotomy to become more stupid and average. I'll always do my best, there is no other way. People like me are too rare. As girls say, they never met anyone like me, so they get scared away, although I'm here for everyone who asks. (and for some of those who won't ask)

I should cancel my Pleiadian citizenship somehow and sneeze out the hi-tech implants in my brain, then perhaps I'll be human enough for girls Smiling Or I'll just steal some normal guy's skin!

Hedningarna is really nice, but this one was too short. What about something longer?

 

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Luminon wrote:People like me

Luminon wrote:
People like me are too rare.

 

Ironically, your narcissism is very common in young males. They all think that they are fabulous and that nothing like them ever existed or will ever exist again. They all think they are smart and strong, not to mention talented in a multitude of ways. 'How can a mere woman ever be good enough for someone like me?' We who have been around for a while just laugh at that. It's beautifully comical! Thinking you are special is what makes you normal. And the world keeps spinning round and around. Nothing ever changes.

 

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

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I'm starting to suspect that

I'm starting to suspect that you happen to be a narcist - this is why you keep seeing them all around.


In fact, I'm far from a normal guy, it's not something I invented, this is what people keep telling me over the years in less or more approving ways. Usually less. It equals to social isolation. I love company, but there is rarely anything I can talk about with common people. Most of their talking is just empty chatter. Beer, TV, olympics, and pop music are awfully boring.
The proof is, that no-one of all classmates and peers I ever had, or young people I ever heard about, would possibly ever:
- dwell on atheistic forum
- write and think in foreign language
- learn astrology and other occult sciences
- read books on almost daily basis.
I could be just as well an extraterrestrial, with such a hobbies.

The song is nice, not absurdly noisy, but the war theme is irritating. Trust me, war sucks, big time, donkey ass. My grandma saw it on her own eyes, and I could tell stories about it. All the war glory is basically about missing limbs, PTSD and countries bombed 50 years back in development.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3zDV5V3SPg
Embedding is disabled, but it's well worth it. Prepare for some explosives.

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Luminon wrote: I'm starting

Luminon wrote:

I'm starting to suspect that you happen to be a narcist

 

That's a possibility.

However, at my current time-spatial location in the matrix, I think it unlikely.

I'll leave that to the judge and jury to decide; myself remaining a Schroedinger's Cheshire Cat.

 

"The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind." (Alphonse Donatien De Sade)

http://www.kinkspace.com