A debate I had with a theist via facebook.

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A debate I had with a theist via facebook.

 This is from about a month ago. (I HAD to save it.) I'm Danielle W, and the theist is Danielle M. There were some comments I deleted because they were irrelevant to the debate and just included comments such as, "God is primitive," and "i would wear an inverted pentagram shirt with a huge inverted cross necklass to the conformation sponsor meeting or whatever they do lol." It would have been a lot shorter if the girl I was debating with didn't repeat all of her points and make something that could have been 2 sentences into 20. 

Danielle W My brother just asked me to be his confirmation sponsor, but I don't believe in religion. Is that allowed?

Mon at 5:56pm · Comment · Like

[other comments]

Patrick B

danielle u should do it. it would be nice for u to see a different perspective on things rather than rant and scream every time religious thoughts r spoken lol (Patrick is atheist and just enjoys making fun of me.)

(((

Mon at 8:27pm · Delete

Danielle W

i'm lol'ing. patrick, i do consider other perspectives. i can usually figure opposing arguments out before i start an argument. considering i used to be religious, that's a piece of (raw vegan) cake. i have done research on cults, religion, and have seen the effects of religion within a household and within society and politics. thank you.

Mon at 8:32pm · Delete

Danielle Woodard

if someone wants to start a debate with me about the existence of god, that's a fucking joke. good luck proving that. not that i can prove god doesn't exist, but to put faith in something that you don't even know for sure if there seems illogical. yeah, sure, faith in something is good, but why can't we just have faith in ourselves or humanity. Like the belief in humanism of the enlightenment. If we still put so much focus on religion, we'd be stuck in the middle ages. Look what we can do without religion? Religion is often used by politicians too to act kind of like a representative of god. Overall, religion is not a good idea. It creates a degenerate society to a degree. Then we have cults which are just religions with less real estate and less of a following. Christianity started out as a cult. I could go further into this, cult is just a synonym for religion just one has a negative connotation and one has a positive one. Look at the murders in the name of religion. I think jails hold about 2% atheists, yet atheists frequently are stereotyped by more conservative religious people as being immoral. I remember I had an argument with this religious woman when I was getting my hair cut one time and she definitely thought I was intelligent before we got into this argument. She knew how many languages I took, we were discussion literature, etc. She liked me. Then we got to religion just through a discussion about history. I mentioned that I wanted to be Muslim at one point, and she totally attacked me for that. I said, "it was just an excuse to learn Arabic. Don't worry; i'm atheist now." "YOU'RE ATHEIST?!!!" so angry. we got into this huge fight and she was contradicting herself constantly. couldn't even stick to the same point. okay, i side-tracked. but how would you feel if your kids were following charles manson who claimed he was jesus christ? or following jim jones - an actual reverend - definitely well-liked in his community? or some cult that was murdering people for they fervently believed in an apocalypse. I assume cults are going on based around 2012. If you want to look at politics, society, an individual, or a family, religion affects in so many ways negatively. for further clarification, just ask. ^_^ I know Patrick loves my rants.

Mon at 8:57pm · Delete

[other comments]

Patrick B

danielle i love u<3333 that rant is fucking great im litterally lmao


[other comments]

Danielle M

ok i came across this and i get what your saying danielle like i do im not biased at all and i even agree that getting rid of religion would be the best for everyone because its not about traditions and differing beliefs. as well as i cant physically show you God you cant show me He's not there. you obviously have strong opinions but really you have no proof. what points do you have against a God being there, honestly im curious? and also christianity never started out as a cult so i have no idea where you got that from. im not a blind believer that doesnt even look into what my faith has to say and ive questioned many things and went in depth for alot of topics so yea you can tell me Hes not there based on what you think and i can say He is and believe it whole heartedly. everyone likes tangible evidence but it would be pointless if we were given that. this world is filled with too many things proving his existence that honestly atheists can rarely put up a good argument because there is no scientific laws proving evolution and i think its much easier to believe tht an intelligent designer created us then we actually came from a single celled organism. it takes more faith to believe in that then it does to believe in God. religion is stupid because its an organized list of crap. a relationship with God is whats real and thats what REAL christians believe in. the fact that many judge christians as being put in jail for this and that and for being horrible people is prejudice just as well as christians judge atheists but obviously these so called christians are not followers at all. so there is equally prejudice going on between the groups and also if all that stuff about atheists being only 2% of the jail population, good for them. that doesn't mean they dont have morals and are good people no one ever said that. most people call themselves christian or religious and they dont even know anything about it. honestly think of our school. how many people are there that go, oh yea im christian but do the opposite of what they "believe". im not one to debate people because i hate jumping down peoples throats but i will debate my faith ANYDAY. 

and a cult is defined as a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange

technically then any religion would be considered a cult starting out so i dont really see where you got that from.. lol

Tue at 6:28pm · Delete

Danielle W

The idea that Christianity started out as a cult is less debatable than the opinion of some that Christianity is still a cult. I'll express my idea about the former. Conversion, belief in one almighty being - Jesus as an indirect way to get to God, sacrifice at first, etc. By using the broad, universal definition of cult without any biases or specifics, Christianity met all the requirements of a cult (at least when it started out)- although it may not be seen as one today. It didn't start out as this widely popular religion, but instead a very small group of people that gained following - as do cults - as this goes on. "cult: followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices" At the time when Christianity was established, the practices were definitely strange. People were persecuted for their beliefs. got the idea from documentaries, books, and my own logic. Satanism is still a religion - not a benevolent one obviously - but people still create a bond with something they believe is there. Please don't attack this comparison because I'm not saying belief in god is satanic, lol. Belief in Satan could do more damage than belief in God, clearly. 

I'm not going to say that all religions started out as a cult because I can't support that fully. I have not compared other specific religions such as Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. to cults. 

Scientology - that's a religion isn't it? Maybe not logical in many peoples' eyes, but they feel it's a religion. Others may look at it as a cult. Helter Skelter - that was a cult. Charles Manson claimed to be Jesus Christ. He really does resemble Jesus. He gave his followers hope. They thought their lives would be better when they joined. 
I really respect what you have to say about religion - that religion and faith are separate. It's really that simple - I don't believe in god, you do. That should be the only difference, yet we have this whole organized religion called Christianity in which the rules are pretty basic - be moral, don't kill people, don't steal. it's just common sense. We really needed religion to know that? 

Yeah, I agree that there is equal prejudice between both groups. I know that you don't look down upon people for not being religious, but yes, people have said that. I mentioned the fight when I was getting my hair cut and how the lady's entire opinion with me changed when I mentioned I didn't believe in god. My mom tells me how evil atheists are - no joke. She mocks me all the time. 

Science is not infallible either. I believe in nature and following ones self and logic. God doesn't make sense to me and hasn't helped me in anything in my life, but I know there are plenty of people who trust that he exists and that have bettered their lives. If it works for them, that's fine. Faith > religion. One question though: who created god? Where did he come from? 
My problem with religion is that it is used socially and politically for fear mongering. (You know how I rant about politics, lol.)
Also, if you define Christianity as simply someone with a relationship with god, then that's fine. I guess so many fake Christians are adulterating the term. So much corruption - just as in politics. lol. 

If you look into it, there is a very fine line between cult and religion in beliefs and requirements to be considered a cult or religion. "The only difference is the amount of real estate they own."

Tue at 7:13pm · Delete

Danielle M

lol i love how you include the corruption of the government throughout that ahha Sticking out tongue

yea but honestly how do you define a cult. i feel like theres no universal definition. because many people say a cult would be something of false teachings. now no one can argue if Christianity is false teachings or not but obviously christians are going to turn to the bible to define if there doing something wrong. and the christians i know have never said anything against the bible. 

christianity started after Jesus was crucified. Jesus was considered to be jewish and it wasnt until after he died that his teachings spread among everyone thus becoming christianity. i dont see whats cult about that lol maybe you could explain? cause i dnt see what your getting at by saying it used to be a cult. obviously the teachings were different then before because now a the messiah that the Jewish people have been waiting for has now come to earth so nautrally things are going to change.
as for the whole christian persecution thing, i dont deny that to be wrong. i dont see where that came in nor do i really know the motives behind it. all i know is that we are supposed to be loving people, hence were not supposed to be forcing others to believe what we believe / killing people because they arent christians. i disagree with that obvioulsy ahha. 

yea like we both agree faith is a totally different ball park then religion. religion is without a doubt becoming more and more corrupt because of all the garbage. i dont think thats right how people judge you differently because your disbelief. its still your choice regardless, we as humans have free wills and its your choice to be what you want. no one should be judged for that. atheists should not be condemned by everyone nor prejudged as bad people with no morals or heartless humans just as christians shouldnt be characterized as werid people that blindly follow something thats not there when we personally can come up with reasons as to why we believe.
i deffintley feel that majority of people claming to be christians aren't true followers because no one really shows love the way we are meant to. 

The thing about christianity about the existence of God is basically that he has always been in existence for an infinte amount of time and since we are such finite human beings we want to know how God came to be however our little finite minds cant really get beyond that haha Sticking out tongue its true though you know. like if you think about it makes sense cause its hard to believe something like that because we can't fully grasp the infinite part of God.

i so agree with how dumb it is that its used in politics. like honestly i doubt that presidents claiming to be chrisitans are never fully into it. i think theres a difference between following christianity as a religion as opposed to fully knowing who God is and being in a relationship with him. 

i think this religion has grown partially into just a tradition where people think by doing good deeds and being a "good" person will be enough when thats not what the bible says either, nor do people know that theres a difference between reading the bible and talking with God one on one. obviously something like that is, how should i say it, like abnormal for someone who doenst believe in a God but His word does say if you search for me you will seek me. they dont mean find arguments against him and just believe that. anyone i know who whole heartedly searched for him has found him. as others who attempted it but then walked away didnt. 

its understandable when people say God hasnt really helped me in my life? but like have you tried to have him help or do you expect him to just put his hand in your life and take away everything that pains you? becuase i know alot of people that have argued oh well God hasn't healed my illness nor fixed my family but they didnt ask him to and go to him. same with us. if we want someone to do something for us, we ask. we dont just assume they'll do it. God is all loving but he still wants us to ask Him for his help and he never said anything about a pain-free world. lol

we should hang out and talk about this stuff hahaha 

Tue at 10:20pm 

Danielle W

i don't think the term false teachings makes any sense for defining a cult. 
yes, a cult is malevolent by definition, but categorizing something as a cult depends a lot on perspective. I wouldn't necessarily say that Christianity is a cult as a whole, but I think there are a lot of crimes in the name of religion - especially god/possession/the devil, etc. Clearly outsiders would be shocked at these crimes and Christians - real and fake - would give another excuse besides religion for why they committed these crimes and say, "oh, those people don't really believe in god/we're not like that/they're not real christians." However, those people who commit the crimes really BELIEVE that they are doing it in the name of god or just following their religion's teachings. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8-m9AzxG6Y 
^ just watch the first part - it will explain the christianity/cult thing. This was on history channel a few years ago. You can stop around 6 minutes unless you're interested in specific cults. 
"Nobody sets out to join a cult. People join a new religion, work for a cause, or start a political movement. From the inside, the group is noble, inspirational, but then a line is crossed and if becomes a cult." 
"One man's cult is another man's religion."
oh, and the sacrifice thing = a common cultic ritual. 

Note to self: when less tired make argument about theism prior to Christianity, like Greek mythology and question why Christianity has such a larger following and is still around. Why are people believing in claims made 2,000 years ago. What made 2,000 years ago so special? Why do we still believe this guy walked on water, rose from the dead. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. 
Belief in an omniscient being makes much more sense to me than Christianity, although I don't agree with either of them. At least god was a reoccurring theme in history. Would you have come to the conclusion by yourself that Jesus did all these bizarre things? If one of your friends came up to you in the hallway and said, "OMG, you have to see this kid. He can walk on water, heal the sick, etc," would you believe him or her? It's like telephone. Is the story the same as when it started? Oh, but wait! They documented it! We have the bible! yay! Except it's not even a primary source. It was recorded years later by outsiders. YAY! 

In my opinion, the bible is a fairytale. lol. 
talking whales or fish or whatever that thing was... right. 

Also, I understand your view of god being infinite and people being finite. The idea of god being infinite makes sense to me, but I also think that humans are infinite beings. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, and we are in essence just energy, just vibrations of wavelengths in our brains. I can't say I believe in reincarnation, but it makes more sense to me than the idea that we just go to heaven, a separate world of a sort. 
About the last paragraph - I understand what you're saying, and it makes sense to me, but it doesn't work for me and I personally don't believe it. I did pray, I worked really hard for a lot of things, and did things get better? No, they got worse. I stopped believing in god in the treatment center. You have no idea how torturous that place was. It was a jail for sure, a jail in which I did not commit a crime for. I know people question god when things go wrong in their life - like when my uncle and grandpa died in the same year, my mom and grandma doubted god existed for a while. They ended up becoming more zealous, haha. I think it's just like if you expect something to happen and tell yourself something's there, it is. In other words, if you're looking to interpret something in a way to reinforce your beliefs, whether you are atheist or theist, you're going to find that interpretation. It's all just perspective. 
Also, I find a lot of teachings of the church contradictory. God contradicts himself constantly if he exists. He does one thing and says another. One person sins and look what happens? We trapped in this imperfect world, no more Eden. We must now suffer. I find this story very horrible for theologies for it utterly reinforces very strict beliefs. For example, in the society The Scarlet Letter was set in, it indirectly set up the theory that if someone went against god, sinned, or whatever, they were meant to suffer for the rest of their lives. Those people had to be done away with because they were threatening society and making it imperfect. God is supposed to be perfect, but he's contradictory. He's supposed to be all knowing and helpful, but he doesn't help. It's quite sadistic in a way, depending on how you look at it. He sees all this stuff, all this suffering, all this tragedy, but what has he done to fix it? Anything? If so, tell me. I'm sure you could say that he wants us to solve the problems ourselves. One major problem in society is religion though. lol. So ironic. (Religion, not faith). Even when I was theist, I didn't believe in hell or the devil. I don't understand this punishing thing.
Yeah, people just say the follow a religion so they look like a good person. lol. 

Yesterday at 3:44pm · Delete

Danielle M

okay well as for the first part about christians doing crimes. well yea im going to argue that some might be fake but yea i agree some might be real but also no christian ever claimed they were perfect. obviously we all make mistakes and i make mistakes every single day. so yea and in the bible God says for us to follow laws and not commit crimes so obviously hes not going to tell someone to do that. also no one knows the persons story, maybe he thinks he was hearing from God but wasnt. either way thats his fault. 

and you still cant fully prove that christianity is a cult. no one is being forced into it. it is completely up to who ever. if i wanted to walk away from my faith (obviously there would be no reason for me to) im allowed to. i see what ur saying by the movie but look at this website they all define cults and christianity doesnt match any: 
http://www.rationalchristianity.net/xian_cult.html 
granted not all churches claiming to be christian truly follow the practices. i never denied that in fact i agree. like the different sects of christianity. cathlocis for example- not bashing them considering i used to be one.. but they claim that their book is more important than the bible. clearly thats not right, and they remove and add their own books to "their bible" which in revelations it states that a person who does that will be plagued. 

they were claimed 2000 years ago so why wouldnt that make sense. what the bible says is what christians believe. so i dont see why anyone would doubt that. if Jesus was able to heal many and raise others from the dead what could possibly stop him from walking on water

the bible was composed of many different people since after jesus and many of these people were disciples and have seen Jesus and his miracles as well. now what would possibly posses these people to make up a book and say oh yea this is what God said because in their time people that would do things like that would get severely punished. also many people were crucified because they stood up and said Jesus was the Son of God and honestly would you risk your life if you werent willing to prove something like that. and many of the believers were huge skeptics but Jesus proved himself over and over again. so yea if someone came up to me telling me that another person was walking on water clearly i wouldnt believe it because that would go against the laws of physics (haha oh physics Sticking out tongue) and an ordinary person cant do that.

talking whale? ahahaha WHATTTT? lol 
and yea obviously there are alot of stories in the bible that make skeptics say like what the heck is this, like the story of gensis and even Noah's Ark (which was actually huge and totally capable of holding all the animals) but if you can believe a God created the entire universe with all its complexity like why wouldnt you believe that stuff. but yea im not going to lie there was stuff ive doubted in the bible but i put that behind me and realized God can obviously do stuff like that considering what hes done before. 

idk i disagree with what your saying about it all being perspective. theres this one atheist who had his heart wrapped around the idea there was no way a God could ever exist. so he went out to prove it. he is one of the biggest skeptics i ever heard of and guess what in all his questioning major scholars, theists and even those against the existence of God he became christian. i dont see what would have caused him to change his perspective when originally he would have sworn God is not there.

i feel horrible about everything youve been through with the treatment center and all of that. its horrible it is. bbut yea like alot of people walk away from God when something like that is going on in their life because the first thing to do is be like well God you love me so why are you putting me through the death of a loved one or sickness or whatever it may be. ive doubted to (well before not anymore) but like honestly i have never regretted anything ive been through because you learn from pain and experience. as a parent if your kid was about to do something stupid that could injure him a little, wouldnt it be smart to let him do it that way he could learn as opposed to not allowing it to happen at all. i know i would. im not talking about a kid severely injuring his head or something but say he sprained a wrist. and as humans we learn from our experiences ahha even psychology could prove that. if someone says to you dont speed while driving, your going to do it anyway. your not going to really refrain from speeding until you get yourself into a situation where you personally learn how dangerous it is. now obviously that all makes sense so it makes sense for god to put obstacles in our lives to cause us pain and grief. yea many ppl look at it as him being not all loving like the bible claims but honestly i think thats all an act of love. he also said to during times of trial and pain ask him for strength you need and all of that, he said he would give it to you. 

okay like puritans and all of that. the bible says once you ask for forgiveness you are forgiven not that you are condemned the rest of your life and god will never forgive you and send you to hell anyway. the bible NEVER says that. now idk about some people but im going to believe what the bible is telling me then what religious leaders have to say if its going to contradict his word. clearly thats one society though. and yea the story of Eden stinks cause who wants suffering but its done with and the fact is there is suffering. did God not warn them? no, he did warn them. they did it anyway. most humans are like that. humans make mistakes they do bad things. and honestly regardless if that story didnt exist id place money on the fact that everyone would sin at some point anyway because its not always easy. most people gossip, im deffintley someone who struggles with that. yea well guess what thats a sin and so many people are going to sin anyway. so really sin is what creates all the garbage in the world and even if we werent punished for what adam and eve did it wouldnt take away suffering and deaths. okay also about all of you saying God hasnt done anything. really thats not true though. also if you think about it we were in charge to take care of our neighbor well no one does. i find it pretty weird for someone to say oh well God why dont you fix this, why dont you give poor people money to eat, why dont you save the people who struggle in third world countries well its not like were doing anything about it! do you see countries uniting together to help out people? no you dont. you see fighting and wars. do you see people reaching out and giving half of what they have? no they dont because humans are selfish. im just as selfish as anyone else but i do try my best to put others before me. and do you ever see people truly going out of there way to make someones life better? no you dont. we live in america, and everyone here is wealthy. i dont care if you make like $10,000 a year. if you have money to feed yourself 3 meals a day, your considered to be wealthy well look all around you at other countries. many cant even find one meal a day. my heart breaks for them, but yet no one is doing anything about it. everyone is stuck in their own little world about how can i get this or make more money. god is perfect thus with him there are is no suffering and pain like in heaven. the earth has the devil too. hes going to create things like this as well as sin. sin according to God has to be destroyed. god does know everything and is controlling it all. but he also is a just God and he does what is fair. if you have an unbeliever who has illness and is suffering from health, do you expect God to show up and just change that for him? obviously he loves the person and wants to help but the person isnt going to God so even if God healed them, theyre not going to say oh God did it cause they dont believe in Him. 

Yesterday at 4:48pm · Delete

Danielle W

and you can't fully deny that Christianity is not a cult or never was. I personally believe that it DEFINITELY started out as a cult. There are many cults that have Christian in the name! Most have Christian influence. Christianity is such a broad term. That website is biased in the fact that it is a CHRISTIAN website ahahhaha. Of course they're not going to say, "We are (or were) a cult." I don't feel they even gave a proper definition of a cult. I've done hours upon hours, probably days, or research on cults and to form a definition based on requirements that I rarely see all cults having is dumb. Dumb website entirely, not credible, and it's biased. Ironically, if you're going to use those definitions:
# Overly aggressive recruitment/evangelization
# False/deceptive teaching, including hyperexclusivism:
1. Prior to the beginning of the group, everyone was lost/condemned/without any true knowledge
2. Only a very small, exclusive set of people (i.e. the group members) will be saved/enter heaven
1. you've seen in apwh how people were aggressively converted to christianity. There's a sect of Christianity called evangelists... hmmm. I'm sure they found in the bible somewhere that conversion was necessary... it depends on how you interpret it.
2. small? no. exclusive? depends on how you define it. I'd say yes. However, Christianity DOES promise salvation and pass into heaven. it ONLY promises it to Christians. Many people are "religious" because they fear hell. False teaching - this website. I personally think a lot of Christian teaching is false teaching. 
#4 and 5 I can back up too, more with society's response to Christianity than the original teachings itself so I'm not even going to get into it. 
The problem with this argument though is that any source is biased and we ourselves are biased. 
You may want to rebut, but after that, I think we should stop this cult debate. 

1. Prove that Jesus actually did what was said to be done.
2. Prove to me Jesus existed. 
3. irrationality breeds irrationality. 
4. So once you put faith in something, you can believe everything equated to it? Questioning is essential, and it sounds like you're just taking the bible's word for it. I understand that when you question god, you can't find a yes or no answer, and I accept that, but to not question something that seems blasphemous doesn't make sense. You're pretty much saying if you can believe in god, you can believe in anything. The enlightenment, one of the most important periods in world history, focused on questioning politics, religion, society, etc. Some ended up being Deist - believed in god as a watchmaker, the he existed but did pretty much nothing. Trust in the bible is trust in people which are without a doubt infallible. (Oh the talking whale - I'm talking about that story with the big fish and the guy who survived in that stomach or whatever.)
5. All of this sounds like a fairytale to me.

I don't understand your argument about perspective. Obviously religion is not based on knowledge, it's based on faith. (Let me reiterate basis. I'm not saying that knowledge has nothing to do with religion.)

I don't understand your analogy at all. 
For the speeding thing, use common sense. Obviously it won't impact you as much if you don't learn it for yourself, but putting yourself in potential danger/death is idiotic. 

"yea many ppl look at it as him being not all loving like the bible claims but honestly i think thats all an act of love." - That's perspective.
"he also said to during times of trial and pain ask him for strength you need and all of that, he said he would give it to you." contradicted yourself
Did god say thou shalt not sin? lol. I don't know if that's a religious issue. I think you morally know it's wrong. You really needed a religion to tell you not to kill? You really needed a religion to tell you not to steal? It's just a religion that makes sense to people because it's based on common sense. 

I don't understand your logic for society's problems. To sum up what you said:
1. Humans are by nature selfish.
2. People sin and that's what makes up the world. 
3. Everyone in America is wealthy.
4. No one reaches out enough. 
5. God is perfect.
6. Everything will be perfect in heaven which is why we have to do a good job on earth. 
7. Nobody is doing anything to help. 

1. some may agree, some may not. You can't prove or disprove that. Very common theory though. 
2. ...okay. 
3. Yeah, cumulatively if you add up all the elites. You're going to see a much larger gap between the rich and poor as the years go on.
4. absolute statement. avoid those.
5. how so? to me, he seems arrogant, jealous, and selfish. i don't see how he's doing anything to help anyone. He pretty much just hit and run. Created the problems and left. "Figure them out for yourself."
6. my favorite quote from religulous: "If god has a better place for you, why don't you just kill yourself right now?"
7. Well, yeah people are definitely trying. 
Most of the things you mentioned are society problems in which you're actually not explaining any background for why god creates all this suffering. You just gave very cliche descriptions of humans. Unfortunately, most charity money goes to lobbyists. I don't know really anyone who hasn't wanted to make a difference in the world for the better. 

I can't even make intellectual arguments against what you said because they're all political and societal problems. Money vs. poverty. Jesus set out to help the poor. Christianity has become used by the elites for power. Christianity started a whole lot of chaos. 

Yesterday at 6:17pm · Delete

Danielle M

okay well yea everything is biased obviously. so okay that website was disproving christianity is a cult but also other websites say it is merely because they are against christanity anyway. honestly this whole cult debate cant be proved on either side. your video cant and neither can my website so yea we mind as well drop that because i agree in the past sects could have been considered a cult but what about today? where do you see sacrificial offerings. to say christianity being a cult as a whole is clearly being biased and just forming a conclusion based on a few characteristics a cult requires. you cant prove that that website is false teachings either. honestly you cant. it could all be right. just because its not agreeing with your point of view doesnt make it right. i never denied that christians throughout history were aggressive and forced people into religion otherwise persecuted them. i know the stories im not blind to them. regardless you dont see that much today and i dont agree with it so you cant go and say all of christianity is agressive, forceful or just plain warlike would be a biased argument. 

"I personally think a lot of Christian teaching is false teaching." okay thats what you believe, mainly cause your not christian. and if its not bibical obviously its false. and just as i cant fully prove to you God spoke the bible to men and men recorded it you cant prove the opposite, that just men wrote it and its all wrong. theres plenty of evidence proving its accuracy and error-less text leading many people to believe it was truly from God. if you see that in another religious text let me know. 

1. Prove that Jesus actually did what was said to be done.
obviously everyone wants that proof. i cant show you a video of Jesus walking on water and say there you go. still you didnt answer my point that people back then had no reason or motive to go and make up stuff like this. their not just delusional people that said hey im going to make up a story called the Bible and im going to talk about how the Son of God walked on water. i doubt they'd find that many people to make up a story that many people fully believe today. 
2. Prove to me Jesus existed.
once again, obviously people want full proof evidence of something like this. well you werent there so you cant say he did or he didnt. many opposing christianity historians have been able to prove his existence historically. i highly doubt that a religion made up of people who never witnessed jesus would be followed as much as it is today. how is it that other religious texts refer back to Jesus if he never existed. if there wasnt enough evidence for his historical appearance then how would christianity be so revolved around the idea of Jesus, his resurrection, and his teachings. the whole religion would just fall apart.
people obviously have questioned things like this because naturally skeptics arent going to state that its in the bible. theres too much historical evidence proving he existed. 

what part about my perspective argument didnt you understand? cause im basically saying i dont see how its based off of perspective since a guy who would have died to prove there was no God turned christian.

"he also said to during times of trial and pain ask him for strength you need and all of that, he said he would give it to you." contradicted yourself... how is that a contradiction at all? i feel like now its just you attacking what im saying instead of a causal debate because i dont see how theres anything contradictory about that.

regardless people still sin even know they know its right. its not right to kill.. people do it anyway. its not right to steal.. people do it anyway. so clearly some people need to be told its wrong. yea were logical people but not everyone is logical. people do stupid things all the time. people can lack common sense. just because you and i know whats morally right and morally wrong others may disagree. you cant call them illogical morons because maybe they werent brought up that way or never really told how bad it was. they might even just disagree. who knows honestly. 

for my first argument about humans being selfish. me saying that is me putting a name for everyone in society. now thats something that can be debateable but really can you tell me you dont know anyone who isnt selfish. i didnt say totally self abosrbed i said selfish as in loosely too. people want the best for themselves. if an oppurtunity was put in front of you to better a situation for yourself or help someone a little most people would better it for themselves. i do this all the time, i know. i hate that i do it and yea i try hard not to do it but there are definitely moments where i do really selfish things. im not happy about them and i never said that but for someone to really argue that humans in general are totally caring and never self interested is pretty hard if not impossible.

i never said sin makes up the world i said sin makes up the garbage in the world. and i fully believe that.

i didnt mean to use everyone as a strict interpretation. i meant it much more loosely so yea that was a my bad majority of americans are wealthy. they can put food on their plates at least 2 times a day most, and they drive cars and some own alot of material goods. other parts of the world have to scavenge daily to find a piece of bread. i think anyone could agree we are considered wealthy. 

God is perfect: yea i did say that and i do believe that. 

Everything will be perfect in heaven which is why we have to do a good job on earth: define good job cause i never said that. i said theres no suffering and pain on earth. i never said good deeds gets you into heaven. i disagree alot with that statement so i dont get what you mean by saying we have to do a good job on earth. 

as for the "Nobody is doing anything to help." and the " No one reaches out enough." i do believe that. yea people are reaching out but not enough. i dont see how you can debate it because people talk about peace and helping all the time. very few mean it. many kids in school even wear peace shirts and advertise peace. well they aren't being peaceful to many of their peers. i cant even tell you how many people ive heard say to me i want to make a difference in the world and they have yet to take a stand for anything and in fact are causing some of the problems. yea theres organizations for this and that to help raise money for these kids and for this. thats great like im so happy people came up with those but what kind of organization would it be if no one gave money. and its not like people dontate half of what they actually afford. very little does someone get $50 for a birthday say, and go you know what im going to go out and give it to charity. no they buy things for themselves. yea people do do that. but how many? seriously not nearly as much as there should be. 

"5. how so? to me, he seems arrogant, jealous, and selfish. i don't see how he's doing anything to help anyone. He pretty much just hit and run. Created the problems and left. "Figure them out for yourself." " i dont see what could be jealous or selfish about him nor arrogant. seriously though i hate the argument that God left suffering in the world, so he doesnt love us and hes not doing what he should be. no one is going to him. why should their not be suffering. were the ones creating it. half the problems probably wouldnt be here if we as a society didnt create them. no one can stop deaths but its the natural cycle people are born, they dont live physically forever. no duh your going to grieve and be upset but that doesnt mean theres not a God. regardless of what anyone says he said this life would be hard and he promised to be there for us and for me and many others, he is. its your choice to go to him or not. hes helped me with things, and you cant deny it because you dont know what ive been through so you can say what you want about how you think he 

Yesterday at 10:03pm · Delete

Danielle M

is and you might think its true for your experiences. but i can disagree with all my heart. i would die for what i believe in. He proved himself to me and thats all i need. i dont have to prove him to anyone else, i want to help but theres only so much i can do. i can show my sides and argue against what they are saying but i have all the proof i need. i questioned and questioned and questioned for 3 years so far and instead of just trying to find information from biased sources online i took what he said, that if we seek with all our heart we will find, and i found him. i know for myself theres no other explanation for things in my life and im not imagining things either. it be impossible for everyone to sit there and all imagine the same thing and then call it christianity.

Yesterday at 10:06pm · Delete

Danielle M

correct me here..

just because its not agreeing with your point of view doesnt make it right.
i meant to say wrong.

ahah i made alot of mistakes im sorry im really out of it.. 
regardless people still sin even know they know its right. should be wrong.

omg i should really just start over.. 
i said theres no suffering and pain on earth. in heaven not earth lol i should just retype this

Yesterday at 10:12pm · Delete

Dan Z

okay this thread has been called to my attention recently by danielle woodard, and i feel like i have to cut through all the stupidity

Where did we get the idea of a god? Man thought it up.
The Bile? Man wrote it.
The Torah? Men. The Koran? Men. 

the belief in a god is purely artificial and since we made it up there is no real proof. i can say that there is a flying spaceman whizzing around the earth, so fast you cant even see or feel him, tearing the fabric of space itself, and BOOM there you have it. a religion. because just like every religious person i can always counteract a logical argument with an arbitrary one.

and two, there cannot be a Grand Designer. why? the universe behaves completely out of order, yet in order at the same time. galaxies and bodies are constantly acting on each other, and due to probability, these chaotic events are doomed to happen again in a giant pattern.and thisprobability must occur because there is never such a thing as impossibility, because thats an unbreakable barrier of order, and order within an order. hence, thee must be order within chaos. and this is what controls the universe. you cant even say that there is a creator because that creator must have come from SOMEWHERE or SOMETHING. and it goes on and on like an infinite chain of creators. and there can be no such thing, its just illogical. you can say that god created time itself and he existed before time, but thats paradoxical in itself because it takes time to create things, such as time itself.

and three, look at matter itself. atoms are really made of condensed energy, and those atoms, those balls of energy, make up the universe. period. and it fits perfectly with what ive described below.

four, religion is a fallout shelter for pain. if people didnt have something to pray to, if they didnt believe that their suffering will pay off, then the world would go to shit. so we need religion, like a drug.

five, religious claims and beliefs are being knocked down one at a time, over time. people used to think that stars were really holes in a fabric that kept out heaven's light. people thought that planets didnt move, and they thought that the earth was the center of the universe because we were god's main focus. but we werent at the center. why wouldnt we be at the center? why wouldnt we be gods main focus? because there's no god. the universe can't exist with one.

six, we believe in god out of the fear that were going to be punished, because thats what mommy and daddy told us to believe since we were kids. and that cycle has repeated for thousands of years. 

seven, we dont worship ancient god anymore, and they havent done anything about it like people used to say they would. who is to say that the god of Abraham is any more real and everlasting than the gods of ancient greece? or egypt?

eight, i think its more logical to say that there isnt a god than to say that there is, since thats like imagining things. making up things out of thin air is just stupid

and the only reason why people believe in god is because theyve limited their perception of what non-intellectuals tell them how the universe is designed instead of opening the mind and taking in the big picture

*whew* im done

Yesterday at 10:33pm · Delete

Danielle W

1. they were bored. people needed entertainment. lots of stories went around. you've heard of myths, right? 
So, say if someone read all the Harry Potter books. Those are all fully developed stories, yet do you believe that witchcraft exists and there's this famous yet invisible school called Hogwarts? The only difference is HP is called fiction and the bible is assumed to be nonfiction.
2. similar argument. Now, there's a large difference between not being able to prove god existed and not being able to prove historical facts/people. Alright, send me these well-researched documents that prove he existed. I wasn't there, but someone can prove facts. Just because I can't prove something's not there doesn't mean it is there. I can't prove that a ghost isn't in my room right now, but I highly doubt there is. 

Perspective - that's totally irrelevant to what i originally said. I'd like to know your source on this guy too. This story sounds exaggerated.

http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutatheism/p/whynotbelieve.htm
^very good information about why not to belief in god. I found this a few hours ago while researching. 

"he also said to during times of trial and pain ask him for strength you need and all of that, he said he would give it to you." You said prior to that that you can't just ask for god to do stuff and expect him to do it. You have these two separate arguments of god is perfect and will help people in need and god is not infallible (even has human-like characteristics) and needs more effort from people and can't solve their problems solely. 
I don't know, if i were god, I think i'd come out and let everyone know. god has a pretty large ego. 

lol, okay. 

okay, sure. i can agree with that. I don't feel like that's an individual problem though. I think we lack organization and we have too big of egos to understand that we need to connect as a species to create beautiful things, like peace. 

jealous: you can't believe in any other god but THE God! CAPITAL G
arrogant: obvious
selfish: you apparently hate the argument i was going to throw down, but he sadistically just kind of chills while everything happens. He hasn't done anything to even attempt to solve it. You see no "Mary," no "Jesus." We created suffering? Sure, maybe. We also created the idea of god. 

Okay, you questioned, and you question, and you kept questioning. Did you find an answer? Mentally, you did. God is in your mind. I'm not saying he doesn't exist - at least in certain peoples' minds. He's there. He's without a doubt in your mind. Would you deny that? You are god. Dan Zhukovin is god. I am god. We govern ourselves. We always have to have these outside sources that we want to control us, but at the root, we control ourselves, 100%. Actually, we at least have the capability of controlling ourselves. Yeah, I don't know what you've been through. You don't know what I've been through. I hate that phrase though because it sounds so condescending. Whatever we've been through, we can both agree that it either strengthened or weakened our relationship to an outside source. When I had an eating disorder, it was called ED, and it was made up in my mind, but it was still there. It was all me though. Just like the wizard of oz - the man behind the curtain wasn't as powerful as we thought him to be. The power ended up being in the individuals who travelled to the wizard of oz - dorothy, the scarecrow, the lion, the tinman. They all were relying on an outside source for things they could do themselves. When I had an ED, I had a certain set of rules I made up and had to follow. In therapy, I learned this acronym for him in order to separate the rational and irrational thoughts, myself from ED. However, I was still Danielle just with some "omnipotent" force in my head. God and yourself, they're the same people or same things (not sure how you categorize god, lol). 

and Dan Z, THAT was godly.

Yesterday at 10:55pm · Delete

Danielle M

okay i see waht your all saying but look i cant debate this on facebook anymore its too complicated, i feel like everyones words are being misinterpreted. im not backing down because im willing to do this anywhere but not facebook anymore i cant sit here for a half an hour everytime i have a response becuase its taking too long. im leaving for massachusets tomorrow after school and i have alot to do now and im not going to be able to talk till sunday anyway so why dont we just talk in person sometime unless you want to leave it as you believe what you believe i believe what i believe. either way i dont care. i honestly dont have the time to do it here and i can barely get my words out, this topic interests me and nothing of what was said changes my opinion or faith and im sure same goes for you well opinion for that matter lol Sticking out tongue so yea im sorry i really dont care if you wanna talk about it after school sometime im totally up for it. facebook is just too complicated.

Yesterday at 11:02pm · Delete

Danielle W

thank goodness. I've spent two and a half hours today responding. Yeah, I know you're not backing down. Yeah, if you want to discuss this in person, it's a lot easier than the internet. aha.

Yesterday at 11:04pm · Delete

Danielle M

ahha yea so just let me know. just whenever as long as its sometime after monday. its too frustrating on here and i seriously have no time lol.

Yesterday at 11:11pm · Delete

 


Deadly Fingergun
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I had to give up on the

I had to give up on the second post from "M". I don't know how you debating types manage it. After the second or third reiteration of the usual theist claptrap I start falling asleep.

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Ohh lengthy   ^ i agree

Ohh lengthy   ^ i agree with the second post

 

Oh and you are hot !!!!!!!!!!!

hot atheist WIN!!!!!


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Great read! Welcome!

Great read! Laughing out loud

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Rofl. The theist thinks

Rofl. The theist thinks facebook is "too complicated". No wonder she got demolished.


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That is always the answer

That is always the answer for anyone who is losing a debate.  The medium isn't allowing them to express themselves well enough.  (even if it is face-to-face, they say they are not able to verbalize it correctly) and they always want to end it because clearly, they aren't losing the debate because they have no footing, but because they just can't express it right.  *rolls eyes*

I experience this when debating religion or politics.  I use fact based sources and well-reasoned arguments.  I respect the same.  It is possible to use those same sources and come to different conclusions, but that's just wrong  Eye-wink  But usually what happens is they flounder about, then abandon a point because it is failing, moving on to something they think they can defend, and when that flounders, they move again, eventually going back to the original points. 

It's kind of funny, if you are cognizant of it.  You could play a drinking game with it!

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i'm with DF, i couldn't

i'm with DF, i couldn't finish it, mostly because there were so many fallacies that my brain went on correction overload.

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I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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To the OP, we are all with

To the OP, we are all with you here in that you came here seeking an oasis in a sea of theism. Many of us here have religious family members.

But it is Monday night and you are a teen, which would stand to reason that you should be in school, which would mean, unless you are on vacation for the holiday, that you would have homework to do. You have made several posts in one day, which for me is normal considering I am out of school and off work right now. But if you are in school, your academics come first.

If you are on a holiday, fine, and my mistake for making the assumption. But no doubt, when school is back in, that is where your head should be and your visits here, or anything for that matter, should not be a distraction. I should know because I did let life distract me and it made getting through college much tougher than it should have been if I had cared about educating myself in high school.

Don't mean to sound preachy, just get along with your parents. You don't have to agree with them, but until you are 18 the law says you are under their control. BUT above and beyond that educate yourself. This site will be here when you have time, but when you don't have time, don't.

Prioritize. YOU come first and that means your long term education. Not this website and not us.

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Brian37 wrote:To the OP, we

Brian37 wrote:

To the OP, we are all with you here in that you came here seeking an oasis in a sea of theism. Many of us here have religious family members.

But it is Monday night and you are a teen, which would stand to reason that you should be in school, which would mean, unless you are on vacation for the holiday, that you would have homework to do. You have made several posts in one day, which for me is normal considering I am out of school and off work right now. But if you are in school, your academics come first.

If you are on a holiday, fine, and my mistake for making the assumption. But no doubt, when school is back in, that is where your head should be and your visits here, or anything for that matter, should not be a distraction. I should know because I did let life distract me and it made getting through college much tougher than it should have been if I had cared about educating myself in high school.

Don't mean to sound preachy, just get along with your parents. You don't have to agree with them, but until you are 18 the law says you are under their control. BUT above and beyond that educate yourself. This site will be here when you have time, but when you don't have time, don't.

Prioritize. YOU come first and that means your long term education. Not this website and not us.

 

I understand what you're saying, and I agree. Today was a snow day. Thank you for the advice though. 


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Brian37, not that she should

Brian37, not that she should ignore her education, but there's more to life than school. I don't think it's our business to tell her how to prioritize her life. When I was in highschool I learned more on my own than I did in classes. I sure as hell would've gotten pissed off if someone told me I should focus more on school. Each person has their own way of learning. And besides, it's frickin the week before holidays. Nobody's going to suffer grades at this time of year.

Thanks for the post, Danielle. I admit, it was painful to read, but you surely held your own. You were more circumspect than I would have been, which I applaud you for. Did you know the other person from school or something?

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natural wrote:When I was in

natural wrote:

When I was in highschool I learned more on my own than I did in classes.

i definitely second that.  while all my classmates were flying by the seats of their pants through joke tests on romeo and juliet and beowulf, i was reading plutarch, suetonius, tacitus, aquinas, gibbon, and marx.  these were all books in our high school library, btw, that obviously no one, teacher or student, had touched in at least a decade.

my teachers were literally scared of me.  i took to the habit of writing essays that were obviously utter shit just to test them, and i got an A everytime.  i guess they just saw my name at the top and marked it an A.  i don't say all this to brag, but to affirm that one can educate oneself without paying much attention to the american public school system, and often with better results.  i can tell you right now as a teacher in a state high school here in slovakia that the slovak students have it much harder--and thus on the whole they're much more educated for their ages than their american counterparts.

btw, danielle, what are your grades, out of curiosity?  i bet i can guess. 

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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natural wrote:Did you know

natural wrote:

Did you know the other person from school or something?

 

Yes -____- which is why I tried to be as respectful and diplomatic as possible, but towards the end, her verbose, repetitive arguments started to infuriate me. She forced me to restate my argument constantly, and we spend so much time just going over why Christianity was a cult and her argument to why it was not. *facepalm* Theists recognize that is WAS a cult, and it meets all the criteria. Of course they wouldn't like to admit it though. 

 

 

iwbiek wrote:

natural wrote:

When I was in highschool I learned more on my own than I did in classes.

i definitely second that.  while all my classmates were flying by the seats of their pants through joke tests on romeo and juliet and beowulf, i was reading plutarch, suetonius, tacitus, aquinas, gibbon, and marx.  these were all books in our high school library, btw, that obviously no one, teacher or student, had touched in at least a decade.

my teachers were literally scared of me.  i took to the habit of writing essays that were obviously utter shit just to test them, and i got an A everytime.  i guess they just saw my name at the top and marked it an A.  i don't say all this to brag, but to affirm that one can educate oneself without paying much attention to the american public school system, and often with better results.  i can tell you right now as a teacher in a state high school here in slovakia that the slovak students have it much harder--and thus on the whole they're much more educated for their ages than their american counterparts.

btw, danielle, what are your grades, out of curiosity?  i bet i can guess. 

 

That's quite impressive. Haha, only the bravest (and sometimes stupidest) of students decide to debate with me. I don't argue things unless my arguments are fool proof, entirely logical, and can be supported with a wide range of examples (to appeal to anyone's interest - whether it be pop culture, literature, history, etc.) and some good old-fashioned [un]common sense. 

My gpa right now is a 94. This is where I thank Bryan for the advice because my average is lower than I would prefer because I procrastinate and have lost interest in some academics (which are necessary for these stupid number grades but not real intelligence.) All of my classes are either college, advanced placement, or honors, and I take 3 languages, so I'm alright with the 94. I do believe I could do better, but I think a few points is a fine sacrifice for what I have learned out of school.

 


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hiimdanielle wrote:natural


hiimdanielle wrote:

natural wrote:

Did you know the other person from school or something?

 

Yes -____- which is why I tried to be as respectful and diplomatic as possible, but towards the end, her verbose, repetitive arguments started to infuriate me. She forced me to restate my argument constantly, and we spend so much time just going over why Christianity was a cult and her argument to why it was not. *facepalm* Theists recognize that is WAS a cult, and it meets all the criteria. Of course they wouldn't like to admit it though. 

 

 

iwbiek wrote:

natural wrote:

When I was in highschool I learned more on my own than I did in classes.

i definitely second that.  while all my classmates were flying by the seats of their pants through joke tests on romeo and juliet and beowulf, i was reading plutarch, suetonius, tacitus, aquinas, gibbon, and marx.  these were all books in our high school library, btw, that obviously no one, teacher or student, had touched in at least a decade.

my teachers were literally scared of me.  i took to the habit of writing essays that were obviously utter shit just to test them, and i got an A everytime.  i guess they just saw my name at the top and marked it an A.  i don't say all this to brag, but to affirm that one can educate oneself without paying much attention to the american public school system, and often with better results.  i can tell you right now as a teacher in a state high school here in slovakia that the slovak students have it much harder--and thus on the whole they're much more educated for their ages than their american counterparts.

btw, danielle, what are your grades, out of curiosity?  i bet i can guess. 

 

That's quite impressive. Haha, only the bravest (and sometimes stupidest) of students decide to debate with me. I don't argue things unless my arguments are fool proof, entirely logical, and can be supported with a wide range of examples (to appeal to anyone's interest - whether it be pop culture, literature, history, etc.) and some good old-fashioned [un]common sense. 

My gpa right now is a 94. This is where I thank Bryan for the advice because my average is lower than I would prefer because I procrastinate and have lost interest in some academics (which are necessary for these stupid number grades but not real intelligence.) All of my classes are either college, advanced placement, or honors, and I take 3 languages, so I'm alright with the 94. I do believe I could do better, but I think a few points is a fine sacrifice for what I have learned out of school.

 

Well not everyone can pull a stunt like what he did 

but as posted earlier school is important but also enjoying your life btw you got much patience after they start talking shit i just end it 

so keep up the good work oh and the gpa could be higher but dont let it get to ya Smiling


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This conversation was rather embarrassing for both worldviews.


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         I think

         I think that atheists  make too much out of being able to win debates against religious people.   Your talking about everything we can experience physically,  so you have no problem  to talk about it.   The religious person is talking about spiritual reality, which is only perceived with our spirit.    So the religious persons side of the debate is harder.   Yours is easier.    In a certain way you sound like someone in Spain in the 1490s,  who won a debate against someone getting ready to cross the ocean,  who thinks somehting is out there.    You told them its stupid,  theres nothing out there,   don't be a foolish,   and you won the conversation by talking about how it makes so much more sense not only not to go,  but to not believe anything exists  out acroos the ocean.     Now,     I realize that the reality of the New World was proven and spiritual reality has not been proven to everybody,    but who can reasonably  say it will not be ? ( I know this analogy can be turned around.)      I  mean,  of all the millions and millions of  religious down through the years,  none of em where perceiving  some spiritual reality?   I find that hard to believe.


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Atheists have rarely ever

Atheists have rarely ever beaten me in a religious debate. And by rarely I mean never. It's probably because they know nothing of my religion or maybe I'm just awesome.


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Ciarin wrote:Atheists have

Ciarin wrote:

Atheists have rarely ever beaten me in a religious debate. And by rarely I mean never. It's probably because they know nothing of my religion or maybe I'm just awesome.

Hello Ciarin,

I find this assertion to be a bit on the presumptive side; could you please clarify?

Regards,

UE


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Unrepentant_Elitist

Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

Atheists have rarely ever beaten me in a religious debate. And by rarely I mean never. It's probably because they know nothing of my religion or maybe I'm just awesome.

Hello Ciarin,

I find this assertion to be a bit on the presumptive side; could you please clarify?

Regards,

UE

 

Which part needs clarification?


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yay for not being able to delete your own posts.


 


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Ciarin wrote:Atheists have

Ciarin wrote:

Atheists have rarely ever beaten me in a religious debate. And by rarely I mean never. It's probably because they know nothing of my religion or maybe I'm just awesome.

I've never lost a game a chess, because when I hear "checkmate" I just go "chess is stupid, i win anyway!"


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stuntgibbon wrote:Ciarin

stuntgibbon wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

Atheists have rarely ever beaten me in a religious debate. And by rarely I mean never. It's probably because they know nothing of my religion or maybe I'm just awesome.

I've never lost a game a chess, because when I hear "checkmate" I just go "chess is stupid, i win anyway!"

 

I've lost every game of chess I've ever played. Cause I suck at chess. I couldn't even beat chess on atari.


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Ciarin wrote:yay for not

Ciarin wrote:

yay for not being able to delete your own posts.


 

 

I'm not certain as to the context of this particular post, but more to the point:

When you mentioned never having been defeated in a debate, two specific questions arose:

1.) How do you define "debate?"

2.) How do you define "defeat?"

I ask these questions only because I find it hard to believe (pardon) that you have never had your arguments served to you on a platter of logic; having been on the receiving end, I wonder that perhaps you haven't had the opportunity to "debate" someone of significant intellectual footing. Needless to say, I am neither positing myself as said person nor am I intimating that you lack the sufficient cognitive prowess to engage on a level above ad hominem, but I am curious as to how you may maintain that your beliefs (or your defense thereof) are somehow immune to attack.   


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Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

yay for not being able to delete your own posts.


 

 

I'm not certain as to the context of this particular post, but more to the point:

I double posted by accident and I don't have the option of deleting it, so I edited it instead.

 

Quote:

When you mentioned never having been defeated in a debate, two specific questions arose:

1.) How do you define "debate?"

 

arguing

Quote:

2.) How do you define "defeat?"

Loss.

Quote:

I ask these questions only because I find it hard to believe (pardon) that you have never had your arguments served to you on a platter of logic; having been on the receiving end, I wonder that perhaps you haven't had the opportunity to "debate" someone of significant intellectual footing. Needless to say, I am neither positing myself as said person nor am I intimating that you lack the sufficient cognitive prowess to engage on a level above ad hominem, but I am curious as to how you may maintain that your beliefs (or your defense thereof) are somehow immune to attack.   

 

Because the usual arguments typically made against the christian religion don't really apply to mine. If you can come up with one other than "it's stupid to believe in myths" than go ahead. Also because my religion isn't well-known you guys don't have the footing to make more than a general argument against religion and belief without objective proof.

 

Go ahead and try, it'll probably be as boring as the last one on here.


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Did I miss the thread where

Did I miss the thread where you outlined your thing?


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stuntgibbon wrote:Did I miss

stuntgibbon wrote:

Did I miss the thread where you outlined your thing?

 

Probably. I'll try to find it....


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Ciarin

Ciarin wrote:

Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

yay for not being able to delete your own posts.


 

 

I'm not certain as to the context of this particular post, but more to the point:

I double posted by accident and I don't have the option of deleting it, so I edited it instead.

 

Quote:

When you mentioned never having been defeated in a debate, two specific questions arose:

1.) How do you define "debate?"

 

arguing

Quote:

2.) How do you define "defeat?"

Loss.

Quote:

I ask these questions only because I find it hard to believe (pardon) that you have never had your arguments served to you on a platter of logic; having been on the receiving end, I wonder that perhaps you haven't had the opportunity to "debate" someone of significant intellectual footing. Needless to say, I am neither positing myself as said person nor am I intimating that you lack the sufficient cognitive prowess to engage on a level above ad hominem, but I am curious as to how you may maintain that your beliefs (or your defense thereof) are somehow immune to attack.   

 

Because the usual arguments typically made against the christian religion don't really apply to mine. If you can come up with one other than "it's stupid to believe in myths" than go ahead. Also because my religion isn't well-known you guys don't have the footing to make more than a general argument against religion and belief without objective proof.

 

Go ahead and try, it'll probably be as boring as the last one on here.

Hmmm...

Thank you so much for the vote of confidence.

Having found your postings, I will take a few moments to review them. Please understand, however, that just because someone does not believe in your personal belief structure is neither proof nor intimation that they are either boring or unfounded. To posit such makes me wonder whether I should devote the time and energy necessary or listen to a Haydn concerto with a glass of Scotch...

Nevertheless, I will read your posts, as I enjoy the idea of speaking with someone from what might be considered a "third-stream" among these forums.

Regards,

UE


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Ciarin wrote:Found

 

Cool cool.. So you're a   

 

Woden 

Thunor 

Freo 

Frige 

Helle 

Eostre 

Erce

Ingui-Frea

Tiw

Mann

Helið

Seaxneat

Hama

Wuldor

Zuul 

Jupiter

Minerva

Mithras

Oceanus

Mars

Diana

Venus

Vesta

Janus

Concordia

Carmenta

Quirinus

Ceres

Flora

Furrina

Gozer the Gozerian

Palatua

Pomona

Portuna 

Vigo

Vulcan

Fortuna

Proserpina


-ist?  

 

 


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Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:

Having found your postings, I will take a few moments to review them. Please understand, however, that just because someone does not believe in your personal belief structure is neither proof nor intimation that they are either boring or unfounded. To posit such makes me wonder whether I should devote the time and energy necessary or listen to a Haydn concerto with a glass of Scotch...

Nevertheless, I will read your posts, as I enjoy the idea of speaking with someone from what might be considered a "third-stream" among these forums.

Regards,

UE

 

uh..my beliefs aren't boring, the debate was.


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Ciarin

Ciarin wrote:

Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:

Having found your postings, I will take a few moments to review them. Please understand, however, that just because someone does not believe in your personal belief structure is neither proof nor intimation that they are either boring or unfounded. To posit such makes me wonder whether I should devote the time and energy necessary or listen to a Haydn concerto with a glass of Scotch...

Nevertheless, I will read your posts, as I enjoy the idea of speaking with someone from what might be considered a "third-stream" among these forums.

Regards,

UE

 

uh..my beliefs aren't boring, the debate was.

You missed my point entirely.

Never mind; give me a bit to review your conversation with Brian.


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    Do you believe that

 For Ciarin 

  Do you believe that there is a god who is the leader of all the other gods?   By the way,  I respect your perspective.


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fullarmor2 wrote:    Do

fullarmor2 wrote:

    Do you believe that there is a god who is the leader of all the other gods?

I predict the ring leader is Raptor Jesus.

 


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Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:

Having found your postings, I will take a few moments to review them. Please understand, however, that just because someone does not believe in your personal belief structure is neither proof nor intimation that they are either boring or unfounded. To posit such makes me wonder whether I should devote the time and energy necessary or listen to a Haydn concerto with a glass of Scotch...

Nevertheless, I will read your posts, as I enjoy the idea of speaking with someone from what might be considered a "third-stream" among these forums.

Regards,

UE

 

uh..my beliefs aren't boring, the debate was.

You missed my point entirely.

Never mind; give me a bit to review your conversation with Brian.

 

I didn't miss your point, but nice assumption. I merely corrected your error.


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fullarmor2 wrote: For

fullarmor2 wrote:

 For Ciarin 

  Do you believe that there is a god who is the leader of all the other gods?   By the way,  I respect your perspective.

 

IOM or Woden could be considered leaders of their pantheons, but I do not consider any god to be a leader of all other gods.

 

 

Unless you count His Noodliness:

 


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Almost forgot to post about

Almost forgot to post about the Facebook portion of the thread..  I'm actually somewhat jealous.  I sometimes lay little traps on my Facebook for believers, but none of them seem energetic enough to take the bait and scrap.  


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Want to add me on your

Want to add me on your facebook? I'll take the bait. Smiling


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Ciarin wrote:fullarmor2

Ciarin wrote:

fullarmor2 wrote:

 For Ciarin 

  Do you believe that there is a god who is the leader of all the other gods?   By the way,  I respect your perspective.

 

IOM or Woden could be considered leaders of their pantheons, but I do not consider any god to be a leader of all other gods.  

Unless you count His Noodliness:

 

<snipped pic for space>

 

Dangit, that was my second guess.


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stuntgibbon wrote:I predict

stuntgibbon wrote:

I predict the ring leader is Raptor Jesus.

     No,  but I think he is up there very high.  I believe in an almighty Creator God,   who has many children or creations,   who are gods also.  Thats why I find Ciacir's  position interesting.


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Ciarin wrote:Want to add me

Ciarin wrote:

Want to add me on your facebook? I'll take the bait. Smiling

Nah, you're already too wacky to be harmful.   You can help us kick over the mormons and muslims.


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   I'll go further,   if

   I'll go further,   if we are all God's creation,   we all are gods ,  and we each have a great destiny.


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fullarmor2 wrote:   I'll

fullarmor2 wrote:

   I'll go further,   if we are all God's creation,   we all are gods ,  and we each have a great destiny.

 

I also agree pot should be legal.


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Say thank you. I just gave

Say thank you. I just gave you a pearl.


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Ciarin

Ciarin wrote:

Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:

Having found your postings, I will take a few moments to review them. Please understand, however, that just because someone does not believe in your personal belief structure is neither proof nor intimation that they are either boring or unfounded. To posit such makes me wonder whether I should devote the time and energy necessary or listen to a Haydn concerto with a glass of Scotch...

Nevertheless, I will read your posts, as I enjoy the idea of speaking with someone from what might be considered a "third-stream" among these forums.

Regards,

UE

 

uh..my beliefs aren't boring, the debate was.

You missed my point entirely.

Never mind; give me a bit to review your conversation with Brian.

 

I didn't miss your point, but nice assumption. I merely corrected your error.

Hi Ciarin,

For the record, I have not made an error since 1993 (I carried the one, damnit!), but...

Having read some of your posts made against brian sapient (admittedly in a bit of a hurry, so I hope you will forgive and correct any generalizations I may make), I was struck by the metaphysical tone upon which many of them seemed to call. Your pantheon seems to be of nominally Nordic derivation, with a healthy dose of greco-roman infiltration. Regardless of your particular belief-structure, you appear to have definitive boundaries and a well-developed sense of personal honor/accountability. Drawing on some of the texts that appear to be sympathetic to your position, 

"A person must grow to maturity, seek adventure and experience as much of the world as possible, push back the boundaries of knowledge, seek out good friends, find a lover who is a kindred soul, and provide the best possible means for oneself and one's family." -Ed Fitch, The Rites of Odin. Llewellyn, 1997.

"Our materialistic selfishness will be our undoing unless instead of selling out to others or exploiting them, as we continue to do, we learn how to cooperate with each other..." - Freya Aswynn, Northern Mysteries and Magick. Llewellyn, 1998.

"In Norse mythology, life began without any one creator." -D.J. Conway, Norse Magic. Llewllyn, 2000.

I find none of these lines to be particularly offensive to a weltanschauung that denies the existence of the supernatural; rather, these precepts are firmly entrenched in the biological imperative of self-preservation: read, common sense.  I do not deny that that Germanic/Nordic religions have codified these aphorisms into plain-text sayings that are obviously beneficent to humanity as a whole. Instead, I wonder why one could find it necessary to make a religion out of it? Perhaps with the benefit of history, I see the construct as an inevitable outcome of human progress; my follow-on would be that having distilled these pearls of wisdom, the theocratic implications and supernatural connotations are bereft of meaning. The words exist; is it not sufficient to acknowledge their veracity without applying the unnecessary bandage of god to their origin?

Regards,

UE  


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Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:

For the record, I have not made an error since 1993 (I carried the one, damnit!), but...

 

You'll make a few more in the following:

 

Quote:
Having read some of your posts made against brian sapient (admittedly in a bit of a hurry, so I hope you will forgive and correct any generalizations I may make), I was struck by the metaphysical tone upon which many of them seemed to call. Your pantheon seems to be of nominally Nordic derivation,

 

Anglo-Saxon, but close enough.

Quote:
with a healthy dose of greco-roman infiltration.

Just Roman.

 

Quote:
Regardless of your particular belief-structure, you appear to have definitive boundaries and a well-developed sense of personal honor/accountability. Drawing on some of the texts that appear to be sympathetic to your position, 

"A person must grow to maturity, seek adventure and experience as much of the world as possible, push back the boundaries of knowledge, seek out good friends, find a lover who is a kindred soul, and provide the best possible means for oneself and one's family." -Ed Fitch, The Rites of Odin. Llewellyn, 1997.

"Our materialistic selfishness will be our undoing unless instead of selling out to others or exploiting them, as we continue to do, we learn how to cooperate with each other..." - Freya Aswynn, Northern Mysteries and Magick. Llewellyn, 1998.

"In Norse mythology, life began without any one creator." -D.J. Conway, Norse Magic. Llewllyn, 2000.

 

Just an FYI, every heathen I've ever met(to my knowledge) has held great disdain for Fitch's Rites of Odin, and Conway's Norse Magic. I'll admit I had copies of both before I knew better.

 

 

Quote:

I find none of these lines to be particularly offensive to a weltanschauung that denies the existence of the supernatural; rather, these precepts are firmly entrenched in the biological imperative of self-preservation: read, common sense.  I do not deny that that Germanic/Nordic religions have codified these aphorisms into plain-text sayings that are obviously beneficent to humanity as a whole. Instead, I wonder why one could find it necessary to make a religion out of it? Perhaps with the benefit of history, I see the construct as an inevitable outcome of human progress; my follow-on would be that having distilled these pearls of wisdom, the theocratic implications and supernatural connotations are bereft of meaning. The words exist; is it not sufficient to acknowledge their veracity without applying the unnecessary bandage of god to their origin?

Regards,

UE  

 

Some heathens are athiest, and hold a heathen philosophy rather than adding the theism and religious bits. It happens, although not common. Nothing wrong with it of course. It's just not my way.


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Ciarin

Ciarin wrote:

Unrepentant_Elitist wrote:

For the record, I have not made an error since 1993 (I carried the one, damnit!), but...

 

You'll make a few more in the following:

 

Quote:
Having read some of your posts made against brian sapient (admittedly in a bit of a hurry, so I hope you will forgive and correct any generalizations I may make), I was struck by the metaphysical tone upon which many of them seemed to call. Your pantheon seems to be of nominally Nordic derivation,

 

Anglo-Saxon, but close enough.

Quote:
with a healthy dose of greco-roman infiltration.

Just Roman.

 

Quote:
Regardless of your particular belief-structure, you appear to have definitive boundaries and a well-developed sense of personal honor/accountability. Drawing on some of the texts that appear to be sympathetic to your position, 

"A person must grow to maturity, seek adventure and experience as much of the world as possible, push back the boundaries of knowledge, seek out good friends, find a lover who is a kindred soul, and provide the best possible means for oneself and one's family." -Ed Fitch, The Rites of Odin. Llewellyn, 1997.

"Our materialistic selfishness will be our undoing unless instead of selling out to others or exploiting them, as we continue to do, we learn how to cooperate with each other..." - Freya Aswynn, Northern Mysteries and Magick. Llewellyn, 1998.

"In Norse mythology, life began without any one creator." -D.J. Conway, Norse Magic. Llewllyn, 2000.

 

Just an FYI, every heathen I've ever met(to my knowledge) has held great disdain for Fitch's Rites of Odin, and Conway's Norse Magic. I'll admit I had copies of both before I knew better.

 

 

Quote:

I find none of these lines to be particularly offensive to a weltanschauung that denies the existence of the supernatural; rather, these precepts are firmly entrenched in the biological imperative of self-preservation: read, common sense.  I do not deny that that Germanic/Nordic religions have codified these aphorisms into plain-text sayings that are obviously beneficent to humanity as a whole. Instead, I wonder why one could find it necessary to make a religion out of it? Perhaps with the benefit of history, I see the construct as an inevitable outcome of human progress; my follow-on would be that having distilled these pearls of wisdom, the theocratic implications and supernatural connotations are bereft of meaning. The words exist; is it not sufficient to acknowledge their veracity without applying the unnecessary bandage of god to their origin?

Regards,

UE  

 

Some heathens are athiest, and hold a heathen philosophy rather than adding the theism and religious bits. It happens, although not common. Nothing wrong with it of course. It's just not my way.

"You'll make a few more in the following."

Ad Hominem; snore.

"Anglo-Saxon, but close enough." Could you elucidate on the differences in your pantheistic structure as regards the Nordic vice A/S supposition. I ask because I have always been interested in the Viking influence on A/S culture. As an armchair philologist, this sort of historical intertwining is intriguing to me and precious little has been written (to my knowledge) as regards the religious interaction. 

"Just Roman." Here I must scoff a bit; in what (significant) way does the Roman religion differ from the Greek? Not that I find either particularly interesting, But I am surprised by the extent to which the Romans went to disguise their gods as unique when they (in general) were carbonates of Greek entities.

As to your comments about Ed Fitch, obviously I have precious little respect for such a charlatan; nevertheless, I have heard your opinion expressed multiple times among pagan-oriented friends. I have never received a satisfactory answer save the typical "he just doesn't get it." Perhaps you could elaborate?

For your final comment, I am a bit confused (this happens more often than I would like to admit). If these "heathen atheists" are not indicative of "your way," how do you differ?

Regards,

UE

 

  

 

 


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I feel a bit bad for

I feel a bit bad for allowing my comment to cause a massive derail of this thread.

 

It'd be better to continue our side discussion another time, but I shall quickly answer your inquiries. Take a course on A/S mythology and culture. Take a course on Roman history and mythology. Ed Fitch lacks the historical basis for many of the things he says, and he adds too much wiccanish things, as does conway with the "insert culture here" magic books. Atheist heathens and theist heathens differ because the former lacks a belief in a god and the latter accepts a belief in the gods.

 

If you want me to elaborate start a new thread, or message me in private. You could also join a heathen list/forum and get multiple perspectives from some heathens.


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 Don't forget to tell him

 Don't forget to tell him about the cake and the naked women!


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stuntgibbon wrote: Don't

stuntgibbon wrote:

 Don't forget to tell him about the cake and the fat naked women!

fixed.

 


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In regards to the OP, I also

In regards to the OP, I also believe all religions are cults, especially christianity.


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Ciarin wrote:stuntgibbon

Ciarin wrote:

stuntgibbon wrote:

 Don't forget to tell him about the cake and the fat naked women!

fixed.

 

 

Clearly you're missing out on what "fixed" means.


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stuntgibbon wrote:Ciarin

stuntgibbon wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

stuntgibbon wrote:

 Don't forget to tell him about the cake and the fat naked women!

fixed.

 

 

Clearly you're missing out on what "fixed" means.

 

Clearly you missed out on how awesome I am.