I just wonder!

fjp800
fjp800's picture
Posts: 58
Joined: 2007-02-01
User is offlineOffline
I just wonder!

If you took religion out of the mix in the middle east would it end conflict and bring peace to most of the world?  I think it would!  And the United States would not have lost over 3,000 innocent people on 9/11 and there may have not have not been a war in Iraq and, for sure, no war in Afghanistan!  Thereby, saving the lives of thousands of our troops and the innocents that were killed as a result.  Yep, convinces me that there is a god!  He must really love all of the killing in "his" name!   A world without religion would be a more peaceful one!!!!!  OR, if there was a God, (1) All he would have to do is to waive his magic wand and convert everyone to the "true" religion and bring peace to the entire world. OR, (2)  He allows all the killing in his name...  Maybe he should be sentenced by the world court to live in imprisonment for his complicity! If the latter is true, then he is some kind of deranged NUT!!!!!!  PS: Merry Christmas! 


fjp800
fjp800's picture
Posts: 58
Joined: 2007-02-01
User is offlineOffline
fjp800 wrote:If you took

fjp800 wrote:

If you took religion out of the mix in the middle east would it end conflict and bring peace to most of the world?  I think it would!  And the United States would not have lost over 3,000 innocent people on 9/11 and there may have not have not been a war in Iraq and, for sure, no war in Afghanistan!  Thereby, saving the lives of thousands of our troops and the innocents that were killed as a result.  Yep, convinces me that there is a god!  He must really love all of the killing in "his" name!   A world without religion would be a more peaceful one!!!!!  OR, if there was a God, (1) All he would have to do is to waive his magic wand and convert everyone to the "true" religion and bring peace to the entire world. OR, (2)  He allows all the killing in his name...  Maybe he should be sentenced by the world court to live in imprisonment for his complicity! If the latter is true, then he is some kind of deranged NUT!!!!!!  PS: Merry Christmas! 

Sorry for the typo.."life" not "live" imprisonment!


NoMoreCrazyPeople
atheistSuperfan
NoMoreCrazyPeople's picture
Posts: 969
Joined: 2009-10-14
User is offlineOffline
fjp800 wrote: Maybe he

fjp800 wrote:

 Maybe he should be sentenced by the world court to live in imprisonment for his complicity!

Quote:

 

But can god build a jail cell that even he cannot escape from???


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5095
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Mmmm

 

Given god's simultaneous quantum existence everywhere he could be rather difficult to corral.

Nevertheless, I think rebadging christmas as a time for the arrest, trial and incarceration of god in a parallel universe for crimes against humanity is a splendid idea.

But the rule is that he has to take his followers with...

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Cpt_pineapple
atheist
Cpt_pineapple's picture
Posts: 5486
Joined: 2007-04-12
User is offlineOffline
fjp800 wrote:If you took

fjp800 wrote:

If you took religion out of the mix in the middle east would it end conflict and bring peace to most of the world?  I think it would!  And the United States would not have lost over 3,000 innocent people on 9/11 and there may have not have not been a war in Iraq and, for sure, no war in Afghanistan!  Thereby, saving the lives of thousands of our troops and the innocents that were killed as a result.  Yep, convinces me that there is a god!  He must really love all of the killing in "his" name!   A world without religion would be a more peaceful one!!!!!  OR, if there was a God, (1) All he would have to do is to waive his magic wand and convert everyone to the "true" religion and bring peace to the entire world. OR, (2)  He allows all the killing in his name...  Maybe he should be sentenced by the world court to live in imprisonment for his complicity! If the latter is true, then he is some kind of deranged NUT!!!!!!  PS: Merry Christmas! 

 

 

Wow, good thoughts, might as well not bother doing empirical research on the matter of terrorism, etc.... You got it all figured out.

 

 

 


fjp800
fjp800's picture
Posts: 58
Joined: 2007-02-01
User is offlineOffline
Cpt_pineapple wrote:fjp800

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

fjp800 wrote:

If you took religion out of the mix in the middle east would it end conflict and bring peace to most of the world?  I think it would!  And the United States would not have lost over 3,000 innocent people on 9/11 and there may have not have not been a war in Iraq and, for sure, no war in Afghanistan!  Thereby, saving the lives of thousands of our troops and the innocents that were killed as a result.  Yep, convinces me that there is a god!  He must really love all of the killing in "his" name!   A world without religion would be a more peaceful one!!!!!  OR, if there was a God, (1) All he would have to do is to waive his magic wand and convert everyone to the "true" religion and bring peace to the entire world. OR, (2)  He allows all the killing in his name...  Maybe he should be sentenced by the world court to live in imprisonment for his complicity! If the latter is true, then he is some kind of deranged NUT!!!!!!  PS: Merry Christmas! 

 

Wow, good thoughts, might as well not bother doing empirical research on the matter of terrorism, etc.... You got it all figured out.

Come on now!  Think about what this forum is all about!    I was only referring to "religious" terrorism and was where "religion" was the motivating factor....

 

 

 

 


Luminon
SuperfanTheist
Luminon's picture
Posts: 2455
Joined: 2008-02-17
User is offlineOffline
 The bad conditions in

 The bad conditions in middle-east are there not because of religion, but because of poverty. Poverty causes extremism, religion is only one of many means to justify it. The other means can be racism, nationalism, tribal hate, ambitions, greed, or xenophobia, in places like 3rd Reich, Rwanda, Congo, Bosnia, Serbia, Somalia, and so on. War in Iraq would be there, no matter of religion or regime, because of the imaginary weapons of mass destruction and very real oil supplies.

Obviously, no matter if there is God or not, we have free will to believe or disbelieve in pretty much anything. (apart of being brainwashed by our own communities) There is no evidence that God wants us to believe at all, or wants us to do something and don't do something else. There is no reason why God should save babies, or poor people from dying, they're our people after all, and they're dying because of us. I really don't understand why should God be involved in anything of that. If God would clean up every mess we make, we would grow up as spoilt children.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


fjp800
fjp800's picture
Posts: 58
Joined: 2007-02-01
User is offlineOffline
I never said that wars would

I never said that wars would not take place if there was no religion! What I was trying to convey is that there would be less war if there was no religion…809 million people have died in religious wars  See http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatz.htm#RelCon Just in our time think about the World Trade Center [Kill the infidels]..Holy Jihad, etc].  Israel..The Jews will not give up any territory because God gave it to them.

I am not going to get into god not saving babies, free will etc... All that nonsense is for another posting... For now all I will ssay is "what a guy" {god}

 

 


fjp800
fjp800's picture
Posts: 58
Joined: 2007-02-01
User is offlineOffline
I agree!!!!!!!

I agree!!!!!!!


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10549
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
I get to agree with Luminon

I get to agree with Luminon for once. Religion in the middle east is not the source of the problem. A rich history of bloodshed combined with poverty, inequality, and overpopulation is the reason there's so much trouble there. Remove religion and nothing much would change.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


fjp800
fjp800's picture
Posts: 58
Joined: 2007-02-01
User is offlineOffline
Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Given god's simultaneous quantum existence everywhere he could be rather difficult to corral.

Nevertheless, I think rebadging christmas as a time for the arrest, trial and incarceration of god in a parallel universe for crimes against humanity is a splendid idea.

But the rule is that he has to take his followers with...

 

 

I can't agree more with you on this one..Amen !!!!!


Luminon
SuperfanTheist
Luminon's picture
Posts: 2455
Joined: 2008-02-17
User is offlineOffline
fjp800 wrote:I never said

fjp800 wrote:

I never said that wars would not take place if there was no religion! What I was trying to convey is that there would be less war if there was no religion…809 million people have died in religious wars  See http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatz.htm#RelCon Just in our time think about the World Trade Center [Kill the infidels]..Holy Jihad, etc].  Israel..The Jews will not give up any territory because God gave it to them.


Yes, there would be probably less wars without religion, but I don't think that significantly less. Behind most of so-called religious war there were things like conquest of territories, elimination of uncomfortable leaders, or just loot.
For example, the Jewish territory was not given to them by God this time, but by their rich American brethren in charge of bank system and media. There is no God involved, but USA. USA needed a troubleshooter in middle East, and so there are Jews, doing pretty much what Nazis did to them before. There was already more than 60 OSN resolutions against Israel, but none were carried out, thanks to USA. And profound bias in global media makes sure, that there still are people that sympathize with Israel.
My point is, that (as it's the saying) for wise people religion is false, for foolish people it's true, and for powerful people it's useful. The religion has some good functions for a certain type of people. I believe, that no type of greater religion originally contained emphasis on violence. Not even Islam, which was quite similar to early Christianity, before it got infiltrated by tribal law of Sharia.
Religion surely got terribly overgrown, altered and misinterpreted, and it's in need of a great reforming. Soon, I'm gonna light up a Celtic wreath with 4 candles symbolizing the Southern cross constellation, then I'll kiss a girl under a sacred Celtic herb (mistletoe), get gifts from Greece bishop Nicholas, and welcome the uprising of life-giving Sun back to it's power.

fjp800 wrote:
I am not going to get into god not saving babies, free will etc... All that nonsense is for another posting... For now all I will ssay is "what a guy" {god}
OK.
As for the World Trade Center, I'd rather not go into that as well, because the planes were crashed by religious fanatics, but the buildings were undermined and demolished by someone else. The buildings were built in such a way, that not even several airplanes would bring them down, and not even if they would be all on fire. So I'd attribute the dead in Boeings to religious fanatics, and rest of the dead to someone else.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


fjp800
fjp800's picture
Posts: 58
Joined: 2007-02-01
User is offlineOffline
1.  According to the JEWS

1.  According to the JEWS it was given to them by god....  That is "their" belief...religion! :"For foolish people this belief is true" And, thus, I agree with you here.. All religion is a foolish waste of time.

 

2.. Regarding the WTC.. My point exactly "Religious fanatics". FYI: Did your read what temperatures resulted from the crashes and what the melting point of the steel was???  The heat was high enough to begin to melt the steel supports and, thereby, cause a structural failure... Then the weight above the failure cause the entire building/s to literally implode.


BobSpence
High Level DonorRational VIP!ScientistWebsite Admin
BobSpence's picture
Posts: 5810
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
fjp800 wrote:2.. Regarding

fjp800 wrote:

2.. Regarding the WTC.. My point exactly "Religious fanatics". FYI: Did your read what temperatures resulted from the crashes and what the melting point of the steel was???  The heat was high enough to begin to melt the steel supports and, thereby, cause a structural failure... Then the weight above the failure cause the entire building/s to literally implode.

Yep, in fact, steel loses much of its strength at temperatures well below its melting point,

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


fjp800
fjp800's picture
Posts: 58
Joined: 2007-02-01
User is offlineOffline
BobSpence1 wrote:fjp800

BobSpence1 wrote:

fjp800 wrote:

2.. Regarding the WTC.. My point exactly "Religious fanatics". FYI: Did your read what temperatures resulted from the crashes and what the melting point of the steel was???  The heat was high enough to begin to melt the steel supports and, thereby, cause a structural failure... Then the weight above the failure cause the entire building/s to literally implode.

Yep, in fact, steel loses much of its strength at temperatures well below its melting point,

This idea mentioned in a previous post. IE: "the planes were crashed by religious fanatics, but the buildings were undermined and demolished by someone else." reminds me of the origin of a religion.. You know like the Christ thing [son of god, etc.] .....people hear it and believe it to be fact.

 


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
Luminon wrote:the imaginary

Luminon wrote:
the imaginary weapons of mass destruction

 

You are referring to the 17 tons of chemical weapons that Iraq admits to having? Or were you speaking of the 17 tons of chemical weapons that Iraq is doing nothing about?

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


fjp800
fjp800's picture
Posts: 58
Joined: 2007-02-01
User is offlineOffline
Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Luminon wrote:
the imaginary weapons of mass destruction

 

You are referring to the 17 tons of chemical weapons that Iraq admits to having? Or were you speaking of the 17 tons of chemical weapons that Iraq is doing nothing about?

 

Are you replying to the right posting..OR am I missing something??

 


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5095
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
I don't agree religion has

 

Nothing to do with violence in the middle east. Sure there are other factors but the contention between religions and between religious factions is intense.

Sunni and Shiites Islamists murder each other rapaciously and the Arab vs Israeli thing definitely has aspects that sheet home to religion - look at the debate over the

ownership of jerusalem with each side's fairy god father supposedly having granted them the right to the holy city.

I just can't wait for the oil to run out. It will relegate that whole region to the position of irrelevance it so richly deserves.

It's a shame really - given the middle east is the birthplace of civilization. Maybe we should view it as a reality TV lesson on how not to manage the environment and how

not to handle social inequalities.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


BobSpence
High Level DonorRational VIP!ScientistWebsite Admin
BobSpence's picture
Posts: 5810
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Given the Middle East is the

Given the Middle East is the birth place of three major religions, its ongoing conflicts are a sad indictment of, at the very least, the gross failure and flaws of the religious model of how to live a 'good' life.

I judge a religion strongly by looking at what goes on in nations dominated by the specific religion.

Note that this also casts Buddhism in a terrible light, when you consider Cambodia and the 'killing fields'...

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


fjp800
fjp800's picture
Posts: 58
Joined: 2007-02-01
User is offlineOffline
BobSpence1 wrote:Given the

BobSpence1 wrote:

Given the Middle East is the birth place of three major religions, its ongoing conflicts are a sad indictment of, at the very least, the gross failure and flaws of the religious model of how to live a 'good' life.

I judge a religion strongly by looking at what goes on in nations dominated by the specific religion.

Note that this also casts Buddhism in a terrible light, when you consider Cambodia and the 'killing fields'...

 

Unfortunately... You are absolutely correct!!!  AND no one can refute this fact.. They can use smoke & mirrors to explain why so many are killed in  "religious" wars or motivated by "religious feelings"...but not this one for sure!!!!!!

 

In regards to Buddhism I believe, as in all religions, there were great numbers of people who ignored the basic tenet of Buddhism.  "Buddhism is a path of practice and spiritual development leading to Insight into the true nature of life. Buddhist practices such as meditation are means of changing oneself in order to develop the qualities of awareness, kindness, and wisdom" .. Which is more of a self development program rather than a "ture" religion.. You know the "god" thing...  By the way I do not practice Buddhism.  Although I do try to develop the qualities of awareness, kindness, and wisdom.


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3283
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
BobSpence1 wrote:Given the

BobSpence1 wrote:

Given the Middle East is the birth place of three major religions, its ongoing conflicts are a sad indictment of, at the very least, the gross failure and flaws of the religious model of how to live a 'good' life.

I judge a religion strongly by looking at what goes on in nations dominated by the specific religion.

Note that this also casts Buddhism in a terrible light, when you consider Cambodia and the 'killing fields'...

 

i don't understand the connection between buddhism and the killing fields.  the mass executions in cambodia took place when it was "dominated" by the maoist regime of pol pot, which was ideologically atheist.

i mean, i'm no fan of russian orthodoxy, for example, but i'd never blame the russian orthodox church for the gulag archipelago.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


BobSpence
High Level DonorRational VIP!ScientistWebsite Admin
BobSpence's picture
Posts: 5810
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
iwbiek wrote:BobSpence1

iwbiek wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

Given the Middle East is the birth place of three major religions, its ongoing conflicts are a sad indictment of, at the very least, the gross failure and flaws of the religious model of how to live a 'good' life.

I judge a religion strongly by looking at what goes on in nations dominated by the specific religion.

Note that this also casts Buddhism in a terrible light, when you consider Cambodia and the 'killing fields'...

i don't understand the connection between buddhism and the killing fields.  the mass executions in cambodia took place when it was "dominated" by the maoist regime of pol pot, which was ideologically atheist.

i mean, i'm no fan of russian orthodoxy, for example, but i'd never blame the russian orthodox church for the gulag archipelago.

Well, I am sure the bulk of the people were still basically Buddhist, just like the majority of the people under Stalin were still at heart Orthodox - just look at how quickly Churches were rebuilt and people came back after the overthrow of communism. That impressed me when I was touring Russia, when informed how some Cathedrals that had been torn down or seriously allowed to fall into disrepair had been restored.

Even if they weren't basically religious during those regimes, that still reflects badly on the religion, that such regimes could emerge from an allegedly highly religious population.

Same goes for Cambodia, because it has long been such a very strongly Buddhist society. I have also visited it, and stayed near Angkor Wat.

I can't help thinking that the nature of their belief allowed them to shut out the horrors, with inward contemplation, which was fine for them, but allowed the evil ones to rampage unopposed. I was re-assured that this was not inevitable, when the monks in Burma/Myanmar demonstrated against their government more recently.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3283
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
BobSpence1 wrote:iwbiek

BobSpence1 wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

Given the Middle East is the birth place of three major religions, its ongoing conflicts are a sad indictment of, at the very least, the gross failure and flaws of the religious model of how to live a 'good' life.

I judge a religion strongly by looking at what goes on in nations dominated by the specific religion.

Note that this also casts Buddhism in a terrible light, when you consider Cambodia and the 'killing fields'...

i don't understand the connection between buddhism and the killing fields.  the mass executions in cambodia took place when it was "dominated" by the maoist regime of pol pot, which was ideologically atheist.

i mean, i'm no fan of russian orthodoxy, for example, but i'd never blame the russian orthodox church for the gulag archipelago.

Well, I am sure the bulk of the people were still basically Buddhist, just like the majority of the people under Stalin were still at heart Orthodox - just look at how quickly Churches were rebuilt and people came back after the overthrow of communism. That impressed me when I was touring Russia, when informed how some Cathedrals that had been torn down or seriously allowed to fall into disrepair had been restored.

Even if they weren't basically religious during those regimes, that still reflects badly on the religion, that such regimes could emerge from an allegedly highly religious population.

Same goes for Cambodia, because it has long been such a very strongly Buddhist society. I have also visited it, and stayed near Angkor Wat.

I can't help thinking that the nature of their belief allowed them to shut out the horrors, with inward contemplation, which was fine for them, but allowed the evil ones to rampage unopposed. I was re-assured that this was not inevitable, when the monks in Burma/Myanmar demonstrated against their government more recently.

i'm fairly certain there was buddhist resistance against the khmer rouge as well.  i think in all fairness we should make it clear when postulating connections between religions and atrocities if we're basing them on speculation or actual evidence.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


fjp800
fjp800's picture
Posts: 58
Joined: 2007-02-01
User is offlineOffline
iwbiek wrote:BobSpence1

iwbiek wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

Given the Middle East is the birth place of three major religions, its ongoing conflicts are a sad indictment of, at the very least, the gross failure and flaws of the religious model of how to live a 'good' life.

I judge a religion strongly by looking at what goes on in nations dominated by the specific religion.

Note that this also casts Buddhism in a terrible light, when you consider Cambodia and the 'killing fields'...

 

i don't understand the connection between buddhism and the killing fields.  the mass executions in cambodia took place when it was "dominated" by the maoist regime of pol pot, which was ideologically atheist.

i mean, i'm no fan of russian orthodoxy, for example, but i'd never blame the russian orthodox church for the gulag archipelago.

True, very true...


BobSpence
High Level DonorRational VIP!ScientistWebsite Admin
BobSpence's picture
Posts: 5810
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
I can blame the influence of

I can blame the influence of a religion like Russian Orthodoxy in endorsing the authoritarian model of governing society.

In Cambodia, I certainly don't blame Buddhism for the acts of Pol Pot, but for making it easier for Pol Pot to dominate a relatively passive population, whose philosophy emphasises that life is about suffering anyway, and teaching them ways of coping with it rather than trying to do something about it.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology