Back Briefly (No Popular Demand) - My mother thinks atheism is synonymous with depression

Iruka Naminori
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Back Briefly (No Popular Demand) - My mother thinks atheism is synonymous with depression

I have a secret. It's one of the reasons I left the Rational Response Squad. (The other reason is that being here made me perpetually angry and I didn't like that in myself.)

My secret is that I suffer from major depression. It's been with me most of my life.

I just had a talk with my devout mother and learned:

1. She'd rather be happy than know the truth
2. She thinks all atheists are miserable.
3. Deep down she thinks my depression is linked to my being an atheist.

I'm tired of being angry with my religious family, but I'm also tired of feeling completely alone and completely misunderstood. There seems to be no comfortable ground.

I hate living like this.

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 I'd venture to guess a lot

 I'd venture to guess a lot of people have similar problems with their parents.  I'm incredibly happy with life and believe in no gods.  (i realize happy isn't the same as not depressed...but i mean in terms of "all atheists are miserable&quotEye-wink   So we've proven her wrong with my single example.  Wicked!  

Time to go drink more baby blood!   Sticking out tongue  

 

Depression can probably have a lot of triggers.  Best I can suggest is finding a good doctor that can help you treat it and medicate you if needed.

 

 


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I was wondering where you'd

I was wondering where you'd gone. I'm glad you're still, relatively, ok.

You make a statement that rather seems like a call for help, but I'm unable to determine exactly what you're looking for or need (beyond the obvious, of which there's little I can do but say your presence has had a positive effect on myself and others). Sad

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Iruka Naminori
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Vastet wrote:I was wondering

Vastet wrote:
I was wondering where you'd gone. I'm glad you're still, relatively, ok.

You make a statement that rather seems like a call for help, but I'm unable to determine exactly what you're looking for or need. Sad

To address stuntgibbon also: I've been treated for depression my whole life, but it's never led to a cure. In 2000, I underwent ECT (shock treatments). My depression is that severe.

I lost my health care this summer. California budget cuts laid off my psychologist, a psychologist friend of mine and my psychiatrist. I now have no access to decent health care.

In California, recipients of Medi-Cal are not allowed to seek mental health care out of county. There are only a handful of psychiatrists and psychologists left in the county who take Medi-Cal.

The two psychiatrists have no business practicing. One is a fundy who basically told me the same thing my mother did: my depression is a result of my atheism. The other...well, he has a terrible reputation. He's incompetent. His wife committed suicide a few years ago and the grapevine says he could have prevented it. The grapevine is often wrong, but my experiences with him haven't been good.

I made appointments with the two psychologists and found them likewise lacking.

Due to the layoffs, my primary health care provider has been inundated. He's too busy to help me and has become about as useful as a snake harness.

So, I have no access to health care.

When my psychiatrist retreated to Berkeley--it felt like a retreat to me--he suggested I move away from my toxic family. I tried to find the energy to do so, but I failed.

I feel completely trapped.

I'm too sick and poor to move, but I feel if I don't move, it will kill me. I need health care and can't get it here. I need to get away from my toxic family. I love them, but the lack of acceptance I feel is slowly killing me.

That's the "cry for help" you're hearing.

I've written doctors at the Mayo Clinic and elsewhere, asking about vagus nerve stimulation, transcranial magnetic stimulation and a trial underway for deep brain implants. No one answered my letters.

I wrote Michael Moore. The letter was returned.

I've asked my psychologist friend for help. He can't even find a job, himself.

I probably couldn't even get ECT again, since it is not offered in this county. Besides, the side effects are awful: amnesia and basic helplessness for several weeks.

I don't know what else to do because my various ailments (depression, fibromyagia, diabetes, sleep disorders, etc.) have made me so weak.

In the past I've felt the need to put on a front to protect myself. I'm past the point of caring about fronts.

On edit: I also tried to find help at democraticunderground.com, where I've posted for years. Basically, the answer was: Fuck off and die.

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Personally, I doubt that

Personally, I doubt that anyone can really become happier by knowingly putting themselves into a state of ignorance. Look at a person suffering from delusions living in mental institution; they may be the happiest people in the world but would you really want to live like them? Also, such a stance of separating yourself from reality could be potentially dangerous. That is why people suffering from delusions have to be looked after. Christianity is no exception and is probably worse because Christians have a huge potential for harming others based on their beliefs.

 

I doubt that returning to religion is a reasonable choice for you. Wanting something to be true does not make it true so a return to faith most likely would never be genuine. If you're tired of feeling alone and misunderstood, try associating with atheists. And your depression is a real disease caused by chemical imbalances in the brain. If you are chronically depressed please seek professional assistance because it can be treated.

There are also brilliant minds that have shown how an atheist can still live a happy and meaningful life. Maybe reading their philosophies may help your mindset. I recommend Albert Camus and Sartre. Anyone know any others?

Good Luck!!

 

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 Some colleges have the

 Some colleges have the magnetic therapy you mentioned available, have you looked into that?  

 

I hope you get better.  Best wishes.

I never thought there were corners in my mind until I was told to stand in one.

I have learned so much, thanks for keeping it real RRS.


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I was much more depressed

I was much more depressed when I was living a lie.  The years of going to church and pretending to be a happy christian really fucked me up. The most liberating moment of my life was when I decided to quit caring what other people thought about me and just be myself. The response to me "coming out" and letting everyone know that I was an atheist was shockingly small.  Some people were worried about me and some people had no response at all.

 

Don't worry about what everyone else thinks, depression is a medical condition, not a lack of jesus...

"So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence." - Bertrand Russell

Stewie: Yay and God said to Abraham, "you will kill your son, Issak", and Abraham said, I can't hear you, you'll have to speak into the microphone." "Oh I'm sorry, Is this better? Check, check, check... Jerry, pull the high end out, I'm still getting some hiss back here."


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If you smoke then stop. For

If you smoke then stop. For some reason worked quite well for my friend. Drugs can also lead to depression. Im sure alcahol can as well. Basically go do something that gets your blood pumping that will scare you shitless. Skydiving sounds fun to me

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Some of you guys are missing

Some of you guys are missing the point. Depression is a clinical problem, and not her only one. Neither returning to religion nor quitting smoking (if she even smokes) is going to have much, if any, effect.

I'd like to help, but I'm in no position to do so. I barely have enough to cover my bills, and in no way qualify as or know someone who's a psychiatrist. I know a move to Canada would guarantee access to treatment in a short time, but it's obviously not as simple as packing your bags and crossing the border.

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wow, what you're going

wow, what you're going through sounds really rough.  i won't insult you with even an attempt at empathy, because i have no idea what such a thing must feel like.  just know that my sincerest best wishes are with you.

also, just throwing it out there, but i have chronic bouts of depression, which are obviously very mild compared to yours.  i've never sought any medical treatment because they don't cripple my ability to function.  in your case this would probably be grasping at straws, but oddly enough what helps me during my depression is studying zen buddhism and casually meditating.  depending on what perspective you approach zen from, i've found it can be perfectly compatible with atheism.  it's just a way of putting the universe and my own problems in perspective that really clicks with me.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Vastet wrote:Some of you

Vastet wrote:
Some of you guys are missing the point. Depression is a clinical problem, and not her only one. Neither returning to religion nor quitting smoking (if she even smokes) is going to have much, if any, effect. I'd like to help, but I'm in no position to do so. I barely have enough to cover my bills, and in no way qualify as or know someone who's a psychiatrist. I know a move to Canada would guarantee access to treatment in a short time, but it's obviously not as simple as packing your bags and crossing the border.

Smoking may cause depression

here is a link

 www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980212072435.htm

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


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Best wishes to you

Vastet wrote:
Some of you guys are missing the point. Depression is a clinical problem, and not her only one. Neither returning to religion nor quitting smoking (if she even smokes) is going to have much, if any, effect. I'd like to help, but I'm in no position to do so. I barely have enough to cover my bills, and in no way qualify as or know someone who's a psychiatrist. I know a move to Canada would guarantee access to treatment in a short time, but it's obviously not as simple as packing your bags and crossing the border.

 

Yes, good point.  Clinical depression is one of the worst things to have.  But modern medicine is really good, take it from a guy who was hearing voices shouting at him three years ago telling him angels will catch him if he jumps off his balcony or that he'll be fine if he steps into traffic.  (I dodged a bullet when I went to a psych ward, they decided in the end that I wasn't a danger to myself even though I definitely was...  That's another story.)  Anyway I don't hear much anything anymore and my delusions have totally subsided.  I'm not depressed and don't have manic problems anymore either.  My anxiety is also minimal, I just take my anxiety medicine when I'm feeling too jittery or worried etc.   Last and least my hair has grown back!

 

So that's something to keep in mind, I'm probably fully recovered right now (it's hard for someone who only took high school psych to know) and had one of the worst conditions out there. (Schizo-affective disorder.) The big finale: All of my doctors including the brilliant one classified me as highly resistant to medicine. 

 

I've heard great, marvelous things about the magnetic treatment from my old psychiatrist (the brilliant guy)  Definitely something to look into further OP, I have no idea how it works but going by what that doctor said it has "a lot of support in the medical community".

 

And again I hope you feel better.  Modern medicine is wonderful, I'm sorry it hasn't worked well for you.  Sad  But that's just so far, you never know how other really advanced treatment will help.

 

If you're up to it perhaps you could share some more?  That might make you feel better temporarily and perhaps some of the science guys on the forums will have some tips...  I'm sure you know most of the ones out there already but you never know.

 

We all hope you get better. 

I never thought there were corners in my mind until I was told to stand in one.

I have learned so much, thanks for keeping it real RRS.


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Tapey wrote:Vastet

Tapey wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Some of you guys are missing the point. Depression is a clinical problem, and not her only one. Neither returning to religion nor quitting smoking (if she even smokes) is going to have much, if any, effect. I'd like to help, but I'm in no position to do so. I barely have enough to cover my bills, and in no way qualify as or know someone who's a psychiatrist. I know a move to Canada would guarantee access to treatment in a short time, but it's obviously not as simple as packing your bags and crossing the border.

Smoking may cause depression

here is a link

 www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980212072435.htm

 

I'm very skeptical about that (actually I think it's rubbish) but, I'm glad you're trying to help.

 

@iwbiek:  Buddhism in it's earliest and purest form could be considered atheist in many regards...  Thought I would add that.

 

Also OP, a great doctor is what you need the absolute most if I had to guess...  And I don't mean to patronize you, just trying to be supportive.

I never thought there were corners in my mind until I was told to stand in one.

I have learned so much, thanks for keeping it real RRS.


Tapey
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MrPal wrote:Tapey

MrPal wrote:

Tapey wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Some of you guys are missing the point. Depression is a clinical problem, and not her only one. Neither returning to religion nor quitting smoking (if she even smokes) is going to have much, if any, effect. I'd like to help, but I'm in no position to do so. I barely have enough to cover my bills, and in no way qualify as or know someone who's a psychiatrist. I know a move to Canada would guarantee access to treatment in a short time, but it's obviously not as simple as packing your bags and crossing the border.

Smoking may cause depression

here is a link

 www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980212072435.htm

 

I'm very skeptical about that (actually I think it's rubbish) but, I'm glad you're trying to help.

 

@iwbiek:  Buddhism in it's earliest and purest form could be considered atheist in many regards...  Thought I would add that.

 

Also OP, a great doctor is what you need the absolute most if I had to guess...  And I don't mean to patronize you, just trying to be supportive.

how about this one then?

 

http://www.apa.org/monitor/jun01/smokedepress.html

 

Im not some anti smoking nazi either btw, pack a day smoker here. Smoking and depression are linked that is a fact. The only question is does smoking cause depression or does depression cause smoking. This link is probably a much better one tbh.

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


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Bleh sorry for the thread

Bleh sorry for the thread derailment OP.  I wish I could message Tapey with this:  http://www.smokersclubinc.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5118  because he would find it interesting...  

 

Again, best wishes to you ma'am.

 

 

 

I never thought there were corners in my mind until I was told to stand in one.

I have learned so much, thanks for keeping it real RRS.


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MrPal wrote:Bleh sorry for

MrPal wrote:

Bleh sorry for the thread derailment OP.  I wish I could message Tapey with this:  http://www.smokersclubinc.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5118  because he would find it interesting...  

 

Again, best wishes to you ma'am.

 

 

 

I shall derail no more after this

but I shall say this, you may notice that site may have a slight bias. I have read that before just not on that site. And instead of starting a link war im going to leave it at that.

This is why we need PM back

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


Iruka Naminori
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I don't smoke.  I never

I don't smoke.  I never have.  I don't do illicit drugs. Never have.I would love to get TMS (transcranial magnetic stimulation), but I can't.  If you read my response you would know that:

1. My health care is gone

2. Even if my health care weren't gone, I couldn't afford it.  Medi-Cal doesn't pay for it.

 

I mailed the folks that invented TMS.  They said I could pay on a sliding scale, but they don't seem to understand that when you gross about $850, you can't afford to pay. 

First I'd need a psychiatrist to prescribe a treatment. (I have no access to a psychiatrist.)  Then I'd need to pay for 1. transportation and 2. the treatment itself.  I can't afford to do either.

Just saying, "Get help" isn't going to help me.  I have no access to health care.  Zero.  Zilch. Nada.

Once again: I HAVE NO ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE.

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MrPal wrote: @iwbiek:

MrPal wrote:

 

@iwbiek:  Buddhism in it's earliest and purest form could be considered atheist in many regards...  Thought I would add that.

 

 

not only that, but i would say that modern rinzai zen buddhism (the school i'm most interested in) is even more "atheistic" than the original theravada form.  then again, buddhism, when not tainted by preexistent superstition, is at least agnostic in the popular conception, in that the buddha himself refused to ever comment on anything metaphysical, saying it wasn't edifying or relevant.  all the buddhist scriptures i've read are agnostic, admittedly using supernatural beings as illustrative.

 

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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If you're interested in

If you're interested in trying some... uh ... alternative remedies. Marijuana, Magic Mushrooms, and salvia have been shown to have anti-depressant effects and they are rather cheap. Salvia also has the benefit of being completely legal in the US. But yea definitely don't take my word for it. There are options for you, I have even heard that your diet can effect depression. Take advantage of resources on the internet if you can't afford a doctor

Good Luck!

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Tapey wrote:Vastet

Tapey wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Some of you guys are missing the point. Depression is a clinical problem, and not her only one. Neither returning to religion nor quitting smoking (if she even smokes) is going to have much, if any, effect. I'd like to help, but I'm in no position to do so. I barely have enough to cover my bills, and in no way qualify as or know someone who's a psychiatrist. I know a move to Canada would guarantee access to treatment in a short time, but it's obviously not as simple as packing your bags and crossing the border.

Smoking may cause depression

here is a link

 www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980212072435.htm

Not like this it doesn't. Read about chronic depression. Smoking is quite incapable of having such an effect.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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My mom suffers from major

My mom suffers from major depression. I'll save you the details of that sob story, as I'm sure you're already depressed enough.

Point is, my mom's also heavily religious, so all the fundies who are trying to lay a guilt trip on you can just fuck the hell off.

The situation for patients with chronic depression in the US scares me witless. People can lose what little financial aid they get just for having a smiling picture on their facebook page. Keep writing those letters and emails, is the only pathetic advice I can give.

You sound like a good candidate for deep brain simulation treatment : http://www.dana.org/news/cerebrum/detail.aspx?id=12622

On that page, you'll find a link to information on clinical trials that are enrolling patients. I'm not sure how that works in the US, but here in europe, when you when you volunteer for one of those trials, they pay you for it.

 

 


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oh geez

Iruka, I am so sorry to hear that you are going through all of this. Wish there was something I could offer you in the way of a solution or a quick fix ~ I will tell you that I smiled when I saw your name as a recent poster! It has been a long time (and I now know why) since you have been active here. Glad to see you and I hope you find something that makes you feel better soon.

Slowly building a blog at ~

http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/


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Iruka, I'm so sorry to hear

Iruka, I'm so sorry to hear that you're having such a rough go of it.  I wouldn't think it's your atheism that causes your depression.  I would think your ability to overcome religion is indicative of your great intellect.  That intellect causes you to see the ills of the world, and get frustrated by them.  I know that pain.  I missed you, and I hope you can check in a little more often.  I hope everything goes well for you, stay strong.

 

Tapey wrote:

This is why we need PM back

I just created a new role called "atheist" and you'll get an atheist badge above your name as a result.  The atheist title will get you in to the atheist only forum and allow you to PM. 

Requirements for now:  User must have 250 posts or more and over 6 months of usage.  This is a badge for people that don't yet have an elevated role. (also paid subscribers)

Maybe later I'll set up a test to vet someone for the atheist title. 

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If depression was due to

If depression was due to athiesm, I was a church going Bible believing atheist for years before I acknowledged that I didn't believe in God.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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:3

 There is a very high correlation between high intelligence and existential depression.

 

Figured I'd mention that. 

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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ClockCat wrote: There is a

ClockCat wrote:

 There is a very high correlation between high intelligence and existential depression.

 

Figured I'd mention that. 

probably because thinking doesn't lead to happiness.... I know I try my best not to think

 

Before someone jumps im just kidding

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


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I wouldn't ever link atheism

I wouldn't ever link atheism to depression.  I would actually consider myself fairly optimistic, however I would say overall I'm just realistic.  My girlfriend and I had a long talk about this, and she said that not believing in anything is sad, and that it basically means that life has no meaning.  I told her that my realization that I was an atheist has made me realize that life had infinite meaning, and each life was infinitely valuable, as it is the only thing we have.

Its a 'seize the day' type of thing for me.  Since really accepting and embracing my atheism, I have had a significant increase in obtaining any and all knowledge I can find.  Being caught up in theism, for me, allowed me to go day to day without learning anything of substance.  I don't really have a definitive answer as to why atheism has made me want to learn more, it has just been a new outlook I have taken on. 

I know I probably sound a little cliche, but its just that atheism has been an antidepressant for me.  That's just my experience anyway.


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Well, I demanded that you

Well, I demanded that you come back. I think others might have as well.


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Sapient wrote:Iruka, I'm so

Sapient wrote:

Iruka, I'm so sorry to hear that you're having such a rough go of it.  I wouldn't think it's your atheism that causes your depression.  I would think your ability to overcome religion is indicative of your great intellect.  That intellect causes you to see the ills of the world, and get frustrated by them.  I know that pain.  I missed you, and I hope you can check in a little more often.  I hope everything goes well for you, stay strong.

 

Tapey wrote:

This is why we need PM back

I just created a new role called "atheist" and you'll get an atheist badge above your name as a result.  The atheist title will get you in to the atheist only forum and allow you to PM. 

Requirements for now:  User must have 250 posts or more and over 6 months of usage.  This is a badge for people that don't yet have an elevated role. (also paid subscribers)

Maybe later I'll set up a test to vet someone for the atheist title. 

i'd really like an atheist badge, especially if that's what it takes to pm.

though i'm a bit confused...i've pmed in the past (about 6-8 months ago) and it seemed to work.  i still have the option in my profile.  was it just recently shut down?  or was it only shut down for some people?  if i use the pm form now will it work?

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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As a superfan, you have the

As a superfan, you have the option to use PM's, and are disqualified from being able to request the atheist badge, for now at least. If I misunderstood, I'm sure I'll be corrected shortly.

Back on topic, I do hope to hear more from you Iruka. You've been missed. I do understand not wanting to be angry all the time though, so I can't fault you for avoiding such a state.

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Vastet wrote:As a superfan,

Vastet wrote:
As a superfan, you have the option to use PM's, and are disqualified from being able to request the atheist badge, for now at least. If I misunderstood, I'm sure I'll be corrected shortly. Back on topic, I do hope to hear more from you Iruka. You've been missed. I do understand not wanting to be angry all the time though, so I can't fault you for avoiding such a state.

ok, cool.  btw, i didn't want to highjack the thread.  i searched for a thread about this but didn't find it.  maybe i skimmed too quickly.  back to the main issue...

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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OK, I happen to be a

OK, I happen to be a psychiatric social worker.

 

First, let me say that there are like 50 or so different conditions that are called depression and there may well be others that have not been described in the literature just yet. Given that, one is probably best off seeing a doctor who is trained in figuring out what is going on.

 

As complicated as the matter is, even doctors often don't get the diagnosis right the first time (or even the first several times. Also, yes, it is true that smoking is sometimes linked to depression. Honestly, overuse of air freshener is as well:

 

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2004/10/19/5680.aspx

 

Iruka Naminori wrote:
Just saying, "Get help" isn't going to help me. I have no access to health care. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

 

Once again: I HAVE NO ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE.

 

OK, that is a controlling factor. If you can't get to a doctor, then you need to go from there.

 

There are yet ways to get to a doctor at some clinic. Since you are in California, I have a link to professional but not medical places that you can start at. If one of the places in the link is close enough to you, they may be willing to work with you and if you want to see a doctor, they work with the resources that are available in the community.

 

http://iccd.org/clubhouseDirectory.php?state=California

 

Past that, I am sorry to hear what you are going through but try that link and see if you can work from there. All of those places are free for you to get non-medical services from and they ought to be able to help you to connect with medical resources.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

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Hello.Thanks for the

Anonymouse wrote:

My mom suffers from major depression. I'll save you the details of that sob story, as I'm sure you're already depressed enough.

Point is, my mom's also heavily religious, so all the fundies who are trying to lay a guilt trip on you can just fuck the hell off.

The situation for patients with chronic depression in the US scares me witless. People can lose what little financial aid they get just for having a smiling picture on their facebook page. Keep writing those letters and emails, is the only pathetic advice I can give.

You sound like a good candidate for deep brain simulation treatment : http://www.dana.org/news/cerebrum/detail.aspx?id=12622

On that page, you'll find a link to information on clinical trials that are enrolling patients. I'm not sure how that works in the US, but here in europe, when you when you volunteer for one of those trials, they pay you for it.

 

Hello.

Thanks for the replies.  I will get back to you.  The last few days have been a bit much.  In the meantime, could someone please move this thread to an atheists only forum?  Thanks

I have approached the Mayo Clinic about ongoing deep brain stimulation trials, but never received a reply:

 

Dr. Kendall Lee
200 1st Street South West
Rochester, MN 55905
(507) 284-2511

 

Dear Dr. Lee, 

I’m 42 years old and have suffered from severe, treatment-resistant depression most of my life.  I’ve been on many, many medications including SSRIs, tricyclics, mood stabilizers, NRIs and DRIs.  You’d have to look at my file to get a list.  It stretches back over twenty years, so I can’t remember every drug I’ve tried.

 

Unfortunately, drugs and talk therapy have done nothing for me.  I keep getting worse as time goes by.  I feel my life has been wasted.  I feel there is no reason to keep trying. 

 

Roughly ten years ago, I received ECT.  The experience itself was horrifying.  The memory loss was frightening.  It helped for a little while, but before long, my depression returned, worse than before. 

 

Complicating matters, the recent California budget cuts left me without my psychologist and psychiatrist.

 

I’m on disability for depression and Medi-Cal is my insurance provider.  It will not allow recipients to seek help out of county, so I cannot get basic care, let alone the help I need.  When I talked to my primary care provider, he said there was nothing I could do.  Our county simply doesn’t have the resources I need.

 

Recently I read about the deep brain stimulation trials you are conducting.  I have no psychiatrist, so I must refer myself. 

 

Would you consider me for the program?  It could save my life.

 

Sincerely,

 

My Name Here

 

 

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iwbiek wrote:MrPal

iwbiek wrote:

MrPal wrote:

 

@iwbiek:  Buddhism in it's earliest and purest form could be considered atheist in many regards...  Thought I would add that.

 

 

not only that, but i would say that modern rinzai zen buddhism (the school i'm most interested in) is even more "atheistic" than the original theravada form.  then again, buddhism, when not tainted by preexistent superstition, is at least agnostic in the popular conception, in that the buddha himself refused to ever comment on anything metaphysical, saying it wasn't edifying or relevant.  all the buddhist scriptures i've read are agnostic, admittedly using supernatural beings as illustrative.

 

 

I've actually looked into meditation classes, but apparently there is no such animal where I live.  It's very rural, very fundamentalist Christian.  I've asked at the local college, local Unitarian Church, local peace group, etc.  There are no classes.  I've tried it myself, but I have no clue what I'm doing. 

I tried reading a book by Jon Kabat Zinn and he totally lost my interest about 60% of the way through the book.  I was thinking, "Stop talking about shit and get on with it."  He bored me.

The last psychologist I saw (one of the last still accepting Medi-Cal) took personal issue with my dislike of Zinn's book.  She became confrontational: "So you think you know better than he does?"  Um.  I know what I like to read and what sounds like a lot of flowery nonsense after 200 pages.  I gave the guy 200 pages of my life.

She became so confrontational about a lot of things (including my open skepticism / atheism, I suspect) that I stormed out of the room about 10 minutes into the appointment.  Some people seem to like her, but I've found a lot that don't.  Whatever.  She struck me as a self-important bitch who thinks she's smarter than everyone else.

So, a major issue here is a decided LACK of everything where I live.

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

OK, I happen to be a psychiatric social worker.

 

First, let me say that there are like 50 or so different conditions that are called depression and there may well be others that have not been described in the literature just yet. Given that, one is probably best off seeing a doctor who is trained in figuring out what is going on.

 

As complicated as the matter is, even doctors often don't get the diagnosis right the first time (or even the first several times. Also, yes, it is true that smoking is sometimes linked to depression. Honestly, overuse of air freshener is as well:

 

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2004/10/19/5680.aspx

 

Iruka Naminori wrote:
Just saying, "Get help" isn't going to help me. I have no access to health care. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

 

Once again: I HAVE NO ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE.

 

OK, that is a controlling factor. If you can't get to a doctor, then you need to go from there.

 

There are yet ways to get to a doctor at some clinic. Since you are in California, I have a link to professional but not medical places that you can start at. If one of the places in the link is close enough to you, they may be willing to work with you and if you want to see a doctor, they work with the resources that are available in the community.

 

http://iccd.org/clubhouseDirectory.php?state=California

 

Past that, I am sorry to hear what you are going through but try that link and see if you can work from there. All of those places are free for you to get non-medical services from and they ought to be able to help you to connect with medical resources.

 

 

All roads lead back to my county, where there are no decent resources.  Medi-Cal doesn't not allow me to seek help out of county.  See the catch-22?

My primary health provider has tried to refer me out of county, but no one responds.

As for the Club House Directory, I couldn't find anyone remotely close.  The nearest place is three hours away.  I e-mailed them.  I'll see if they reply.

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Iruka Naminori wrote:iwbiek

Iruka Naminori wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

MrPal wrote:

 

@iwbiek:  Buddhism in it's earliest and purest form could be considered atheist in many regards...  Thought I would add that.

 

 

not only that, but i would say that modern rinzai zen buddhism (the school i'm most interested in) is even more "atheistic" than the original theravada form.  then again, buddhism, when not tainted by preexistent superstition, is at least agnostic in the popular conception, in that the buddha himself refused to ever comment on anything metaphysical, saying it wasn't edifying or relevant.  all the buddhist scriptures i've read are agnostic, admittedly using supernatural beings as illustrative.

 

 

I've actually looked into meditation classes, but apparently there is no such animal where I live.  It's very rural, very fundamentalist Christian.  I've asked at the local college, local Unitarian Church, local peace group, etc.  There are no classes.  I've tried it myself, but I have no clue what I'm doing. 

I tried reading a book by Jon Kabat Zinn and he totally lost my interest about 60% of the way through the book.  I was thinking, "Stop talking about shit and get on with it."  He bored me.

The last psychologist I saw (one of the last still accepting Medi-Cal) took personal issue with my dislike of Zinn's book.  She became confrontational: "So you think you know better than he does?"  Um.  I know what I like to read and what sounds like a lot of flowery nonsense after 200 pages.  I gave the guy 200 pages of my life.

She became so confrontational about a lot of things (including my open skepticism / atheism, I suspect) that I stormed out of the room about 10 minutes into the appointment.  Some people seem to like her, but I've found a lot that don't.  Whatever.  She struck me as a self-important bitch who thinks she's smarter than everyone else.

So, a major issue here is a decided LACK of everything where I live.

well, as far as a lack of options goes, i can definitely understand that.  i used to be able to ignore my bouts of depression fairly easily in the US by just occupying my mind (once again, mine is not near as severe as yours), but over here it's difficult because of the scarcity of books, movies, lectures--hell, ANYTHING--in my language.  that includes stimulating conversation, which is why i come to places like this, but it's not enough.

still, just to offer my own meager experience, i've never taken any sort of class nor practised buddhism formally.  in fact, meditating is secondary to me.  primary to me is reading the texts.  like i said, they just put the world in perspective in a way that makes me feel better.  if you think it's worth a shot in the dark, i think the best place to start is e.a. burtt's the teachings of the compassionate buddha.  it's an anthology of important buddhist texts with great commentary arranged as a history of the development of buddhist thought.  it's very short and very cheap (it can usually be had used on amazon for well under a dollar).

good luck.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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That was both funny and sad.

That was both funny and sad. Reminds me of a radio show spoof in GTA IV too.

Quote:
"Who cares if your insurance company doesn't pay out just because they said they would?"

"Because you said you would!"

"Not my problem!"

Or something along those lines.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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I will juggle your post a

I will juggle your post a bit. First thing's first:

Iruka Naminori wrote:

I just had a talk with my devout mother and learned: 1. She'd rather be happy than know the truth 2. She thinks all atheists are miserable. 3. Deep down she thinks my depression is linked to my being an atheist. I'm tired of being angry with my religious family, but I'm also tired of feeling completely alone and completely misunderstood. There seems to be no comfortable ground. I hate living like this.

You do not have a monopoly on crazy mom, trust me. Even atheistic ones carry the burden of life-induced timidness. To convince mine that she was too hysterical, scared of life and looking at social relations backwards, I told her explicitly that I would shit on all of her advice and still achieve 1000% of what she could imagine in her wildest dreams. When I actually did so, I think I made her life better.

Your mom, just like any other mom, found herself with a kid one day - oops. Reflection of you on her has to be taken care of somehow, so she cures her own insecurity by pushing the guilt and feelings of inadequacy over to you. I don't care what you were, if you were a depressed mountain climber, she would see mountain climbing as the road to hell and advise you to change. She has no idea what she's talking about and is as scared as a puppy herself.

Don't do the same shit she did to herself. It might seem a good idea to put up walls around yourself, but it's impossible - those are never walls, but chains. You are not protected from the outside, just unable to respond to anything and anyone who decides to poke you. The "I would rather be happy than know the truth" line is pure bullshit, not because truth is important, but because she knows she's not happy. She thinks those are impregnable walls of faith around her, but in reality those are just chains. You can poke her to tears or into a rage in seconds, I guerantee it. That's no way to live or be of any use to anyone - she demonstrated that much.

Now we can talk about your problem:

Iruka Naminori wrote:
I have a secret. It's one of the reasons I left the Rational Response Squad. (The other reason is that being here made me perpetually angry and I didn't like that in myself.) My secret is that I suffer from major depression. It's been with me most of my life.

Now that we understand the way family social interaction works in your case, we can disregard their opinion on the matter, especially your mom's. They obviously have no idea what they are doing themselves and are just fishing in muddy waters. They see any sign of illness as an omen of some sort and run from it like rats from fire, especially if you live in a society where brain illness is stigmatised, like the one on planet Earth. You seriously do not want to take their advice on something that can ultimately cost you your life.

I am not a doctor, but I know that some severe forms of depression are clinical - an actual physical illness and can be helped! If you would describe your depression as severe (too tired to go out several days in a row, lack of ability to concentrate even in small stretches of time, having feelings and thought that signifficantly cripple your ability to function during the day), you should talk to a doctor and preferably one who specialises in the field or can direct you to one who does.

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ZuS wrote:I am not a doctor,

ZuS wrote:

I am not a doctor, but I know that some severe forms of depression are clinical - an actual physical illness and can be helped! If you would describe your depression as severe (too tired to go out several days in a row, lack of ability to concentrate even in small stretches of time, having feelings and thought that signifficantly cripple your ability to function during the day), you should talk to a doctor and preferably one who specialises in the field or can direct you to one who does.

Thanks for the input.  I'll address this part first because it's easiest.  I know you mean well, but it's just a tad annoying to have to repeat this: I do not have access to health care.  The CA budget crisis laid off my psychologist and psychiatrist and my primary care provider is now overloaded with patients and can't help me.  The people who could have helped me are all jobless.

I have Medi-Cal, which only allows me to seek mental health care in the county of my residence.  There are exactly two psychiatrists left in this county and both of them suck.  One is a fundamentalist who tried the same thing my mom did: "It's your fault because you're an atheist."  The other has a deservedly rotten reputation.

I've also tried the two remaining psychologists. No go.

Yes, my depression is severe.  I am on disability because of it.

A couple of weeks ago, I helped my nephew build a computer. My car wouldn't start (dead battery), so my nephew gave me a ride.  Until the other night, I'd forgotten all about the dead battery.  In other words, I haven't been anywhere in at least a couple of weeks.  I spent all Christmas Day in bed because I just couldn't face the world.

I don't want to go anywhere or do anything.  I've distanced myself from everyone.

Now that the Obama administration has pretty much caved to insurance companies, I don't expect help any time soon.  We have one party: the corporate party.  God bless America.

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ZuS wrote: The "I would

ZuS wrote:
The "I would rather be happy than know the truth" line is pure bullshit, not because truth is important, but because she knows she's not happy. She thinks those are impregnable walls of faith around her, but in reality those are just chains. You can poke her to tears or into a rage in seconds, I guerantee it. That's no way to live or be of any use to anyone - she demonstrated that much.

This is absolutely the truth.  She flies into tears of rage very easily, especially--and this is interesting--if I'm hurt in some way.  She did it when I was functionally blind after complications from eye surgery.  I got an earful about how I was trying to convert her to atheism (say what???).  I would have got an eyeful, too, but I couldn't see.

A couple of years ago--has it been that long?--my nephew's step-sister died in a car accident at age 20.  I decided not to attend the funeral and while everyone had their cell phones turned off, I fell down and twisted my knee.  Someone called the ambulance for me, but the paramedics that showed up told me no one could help me until after the weekend and left me to crawl back inside my house.  Yes, they really did that.

When my mother showed up, she had a knee brace.  She had been planning a trip and come hell or high water, she was going on that trip, injured knee be damned.  She told me to call my brother's step-daughter (a completely unreliable teenager who has given birth to two babies out of wedlock).

It must have been a look I gave her.

"You think I'm going to leave you here injured all by yourself, don't you?"

Um...yep.

"You hate me.  You hate me.  You hate me." Lots of tears.  "You hate me."

I think she got angry so she could shift the blame to me.  And yes, she left.  Luckily, the knee wasn't so bad I couldn't get around somewhat.  But it's never been right since.  If I step on it wrong, it will hurt for days.

So, I can't show any signs of weakness, but I'm in serious trouble here and the only person I have is my mother...who tends to fly into rages when I'm in serious trouble.

Shit...this sucks.

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That health care issue is

That health care issue is very anal (not that I have anything against our back-door-loving friends). Your depression does sound like a medical case and you certainly are in the wrong country for that kind of a problem.

Luckily you don't have cancer or some terminally expensive crap, so there might be cheap and efficient options available to you. I will browse around and try to find public organisations that deal with general health and see if they have some programs, if you can tell me where you are situated exactly. You should start thinking in these terms yourself and get out of the house to go to the nearest public health rally/organisation.

In fact, any kind of public activity is good and will put you in contact with people who are doing something bottom-up about the issues facing both you individually and your community. Just being outside and with people who are doing something relevant will help, you can be 100% sure of it.

Now I realise this might sound like an impossible task to you, but you might want to start thinking about it this way: you can lie in bed and feel awful or be with other people and maybe feel a bit better. It will not replace the medical treatment that you need, but might expose you to people who can point you in the right direction. You might even want to try to help someone else - world's best therapy in my opinion. On that note you can start with your mother - 'cause she seriously needs help.

Iruka Naminori wrote:

So, I can't show any signs of weakness, but I'm in serious trouble here and the only person I have is my mother...who tends to fly into rages when I'm in serious trouble.

Shit...this sucks.

Yes, it does suck, but it's understandable and you can work with it. She is scared out of her mind and unable to comprehend or handle reality, so you will have to explain it to her in a calm and orderly fashion every time she goes on the binge.

First of all - you have to dispell the "you're responsible for the way I feel" bullshit defense from your mother's side. You can do this by using consistency - never allow her to make you believe it! Always say: "Not true! any fear, anxiety, rage or sadness you feel are your own, mom. Distress makes them surface, but that is no great trick - a loud fart will throw you off-balance. It's in you and it makes you miserable on daily basis - completely regardless of my disposition."

Second - you must establish the fact that what you have is an actual medical condition, complete with symptoms, prescription medicine and treatment, and this must be a fact both for yourself and her. You can do this through research and talking to people with experience in the area and going for a diagnosis. You can maybe do the research with your mom, so that she can start discerning reality from fiction and that you together can change your relationship to cooperation instead of bickering.

Third - once the first two points are accomplished, you might even get a generally meaningful relationship with your mother, including constructive discussions about religion.

Now all of this might seam completely out of your reach, but keeping to a few very simple rules will bring you closer:

1) compare what you are doing now to what you could be doing - if you are in bed, there is no reason that you shouldn't be with other people instead. If its just as well staying in bed where you know you will feel terrible, then choose the other option that might make you feel better - it's just as well, if you remember.

2) do not accept blame for your illness - it is a medical condition.

3) do not accept blame for attitudes of people around you - you are not to blame for their insecurity and fear.

4) most importantly: do not expect this to work every time, just like your imune system will not manage to defend against germs perfectly every time. However, every small incremental success accumulates and "falling through" is not a step back - the imune system will prevail eventually and there will always be another challenge after that. Just try to make the periods between the sickness longer and longer as you go. At some point you will need medical treatment if you are to make progress, you have to recognize this as well.

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During the past twenty

During the past twenty years, I've approached the problem from numerous different angles, heard no end of advice, tried a lot of it.

One problem is I have no energy.  I sleep most of the time these days.

Another issue is I'm tired of trying things and feeling only a little better.  It hardly seems worth the effort.

Another problem is most of the people in this town (county) are fundamentalists.  I've discovered I have a really hard time getting along with them.  I've made friends, only to realize it was a mistake.  As a result, I distance myself from people.  It's a protective mechanism that seems almost beyond my control. 

Recently I found myself in yet another situation where a person (not a fundamentalist) wanted to run my life.  Due to my many fundy experiences, this is not OK with me.  Before this happened, I told myself that if problems cropped up, I wouldn't react the way I had in the past.  Guess what?  I did.  Times 10 to the umpteenth power.

I feel flawed, broken, tired, used up, old.  With no health care available, I don't see any reason to try anymore.  I don't have the energy to fight it anymore.

So, I feel there are no more real options left.  I don't live anymore.  I exist.  And existence isn't enough.  I want to feel well enough to have more than the occasional good day once every few months.  No more "feeling a little bit better"...it just isn't worth it anymore.

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Iruka Naminori wrote:During

Iruka Naminori wrote:

During the past twenty years, I've approached the problem from numerous different angles, heard no end of advice, tried a lot of it.

One problem is I have no energy.  I sleep most of the time these days.

Another issue is I'm tired of trying things and feeling only a little better.  It hardly seems worth the effort.

Another problem is most of the people in this town (county) are fundamentalists.  I've discovered I have a really hard time getting along with them.  I've made friends, only to realize it was a mistake.  As a result, I distance myself from people.  It's a protective mechanism that seems almost beyond my control. 

Recently I found myself in yet another situation where a person (not a fundamentalist) wanted to run my life.  Due to my many fundy experiences, this is not OK with me.  Before this happened, I told myself that if problems cropped up, I wouldn't react the way I had in the past.  Guess what?  I did.  Times 10 to the umpteenth power.

I feel flawed, broken, tired, used up, old.  With no health care available, I don't see any reason to try anymore.  I don't have the energy to fight it anymore.

So, I feel there are no more real options left.  I don't live anymore.  I exist.  And existence isn't enough.  I want to feel well enough to have more than the occasional good day once every few months.  No more "feeling a little bit better"...it just isn't worth it anymore.

Well, I am not too bad at listening, so you can feel free to write to me if you want. My interests are many and we can talk about all kind of stuff - just not about EXC. I want to kill him and don't want to leave e-mail trace of conversations on the subject.

You say you are tired of blah blah, but obviously not tired enough not to write about it. If you don't know what to talk about, we can discuss efficient suicide methods. Just kidding.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


Iruka Naminori
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ZuS wrote:Well, I am not too

ZuS wrote:

Well, I am not too bad at listening, so you can feel free to write to me if you want. My interests are many and we can talk about all kind of stuff - just not about EXC. I want to kill him and don't want to leave e-mail trace of conversations on the subject.

You say you are tired of blah blah, but obviously not tired enough not to write about it. If you don't know what to talk about, we can discuss efficient suicide methods. Just kidding.

For me, writing usually doesn't take very much energy.  Talking on the phone...now that's hard.

Anyway, I have been trying to come up with a completely new way to address the problem.  Doing the same things over and over, then falling down--it hurts.  Usually, I start by trying to get out more.  Then I start exercising and eating right.  I try to do all the right things to promote good health. Then...

WHAM!

I wouldn't exactly call it being blindsided since it has happened so many times.  But Jesus. Sad  I don't want to get up anymore because getting knocked down hurts so much.

What I really need is to move away from this town.  But I'm always too sick.

It's not just the depression.  I have diabetes, fibromyalgia, degenerative disc disease, sleep apnea, OCD and PTSD.  Currently, I need help with my laundry and shopping.  My apartment looks like a tornado went through it.

The problem is bad health and lack of energy.  After I helped my nephew with his computer, I slept for two days straight with just a few hours of activity.

I thought if I moved to a place where I could receive health care, it would be helpful.  There's nothing here.  Also, I could get away from my past and the local fundy brigade.

Last night my mother tried to tell me I needed to get out more...which is what you told me...which is how it always begins.  I'm tired of the cycle.  I don't want to ride anymore.

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ZuS
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Iruka Naminori wrote:For me,

Iruka Naminori wrote:

For me, writing usually doesn't take very much energy.

Super! Les do more of that then! Smiling

Iruka Naminori wrote:

Talking on the phone...now that's hard.

Ok, les not do that then!

Iruka Naminori wrote:

Anyway, I have been trying to come up with a completely new way to address the problem.  Doing the same things over and over, then falling down--it hurts.  Usually, I start by trying to get out more.  Then I start exercising and eating right.  I try to do all the right things to promote good health. Then...

I think that might be an issue - you try to do too many things at the same time. Focus on one goal and go for that. Whatever you do, DO NOT try to feel better!

What does this mean? Well, it's basically the same advice I would give anyone who tries to loose weight - DO NOT try to loose weight! It's impossible to loose weight, it just makes no sense in itself and has zero motivational value. Why? Because it's not just one goal, it's a billion continuously piling up goals that will not give you a minute's break: don't eat candy, don't eat too much, must exercise today, and again today, and again today, same shit day after day.... Your brain can not stand this kind of pressure and any weight-loss-like attempt will fail.

Get a goal that would entail exercise and proper nutrition instead and go for that. Example: decide to run the next years marathon in your city and then start preparing for it. If it's your first, you'll need at least six months to a year of preparation, depending on your health situation.

So how is this applied to your situation? Look up Red Cross in yellow pages right now, call them up and ask if there is some volountary work that is not too demanding and that you can do, preferably something social and demanding group coordination. Go help some people. Forget about trying to be constructive about your own life, that is not something you can plan for.

One. Goal. At. A. Time.

Iruka Naminori wrote:

But Jesus. Sad  I don't want to get up anymore because getting knocked down hurts so much.

Ok, many things I can accept, but you will NOT TAKE LORD'S NAME IN VAIN EVER AGAIN!

Iruka Naminori wrote:

What I really need is to move away from this town.  But I'm always too sick.

Sounds like a project to me! As good as any volountary work really.

Iruka Naminori wrote:

It's not just the depression.  I have diabetes, fibromyalgia, degenerative disc disease, sleep apnea, OCD and PTSD.

You don't need health care, you need your own medical ward. Hey, maybe you can combine the "I really need is to move" with "to a hospital" Smiling just kidding

Iruka Naminori wrote:

Currently, I need help with my laundry and shopping.  My apartment looks like a tornado went through it.

Same with me and I am perfectly healthy!

Iruka Naminori wrote:

I thought if I moved to a place where I could receive health care, it would be helpful.  There's nothing here.

Agree.

Iruka Naminori wrote:

Also, I could get away from my past and the local fundy brigade.

Disagree. I would have so much fun with fundies, I would never want to move Smiling

Iruka Naminori wrote:

Last night my mother tried to tell me I needed to get out more...which is what you told me...which is how it always begins.  I'm tired of the cycle.  I don't want to ride anymore.

Ye, but your mother doesn't know what she's talking about, while I do.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.