Help! I'm experiencing some strange feelings

MrPal
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Help! I'm experiencing some strange feelings

 Greetings and thank you for reading my post!  The thread title is dubious, but read on, I think you'll be able to empathize.  I want to say now that I owe a debt of gratitude to this community for beating some sense into me in the past, and I'm hopeful you will help me again.  If you want to say something "insulting" towards my problem please do so, it helped before!     But that said please be constructive in some manner.  Anyway:

 

I have very recently decided to embrace agnosticism and am glad I'm opening doors towards better views and a more unbiased outlook.  Now this said, I am having some strange feeling of guilt the last couple of days...  It's very confusing for me.  I don't know what's up, but it sorta feels like I'm abandoning precious beliefs I once held.  To be clear, one single omnipotent God has always existed as what I worshiped, and nothing else.  It has provided a good role model in my mind to be honest!  I've spent a lot of my life figuring stuff like "God is omnipotent and the perfect role model to do our best to both worship and mimick, though micmiking entirely is impossible".  As an agnostic I don't say to myself that God for certain does not exist nor not exist. I suppose the idea of a perfect role model to attempt to copy is still in my mind as being a good thing.  (I do feel a desire to be an atheist after reading much of the forums though, so I'm coming along nicely imo. Eye-wink)

 

Anyway, I'm really wondering where this is coming from and I think this feeling of false guilt may be from a few things.  I honestly don't know!  But I have a few hypotheses.  One being I am torn between the dichotomy of denouncing any form of belief in God, as opposed to entertaining my old thoughts of my "role model" as legitimate and good.  Am I making sense?

 

I also think the feelings of guilt are at least in part because theists love to shove it down other people's throats that they are guilty.  Of course atheists are guilty of nothing, in fact it's the opposite I'm sure, but it's hard to internalize this considering these social norms have been pushed on me for so very long.

 

There's also this...  I wonder, if God does exist, am I committing an injustice by not acknowledging him?  If God does exist then it would hypothetically be the ethical thing to exalt the one who created me etc, would it not?  Writing out my problem seems to be helping me by the way...

 

I know that I hold better beliefs on what is ethical than a large percent of theists.  I suppose it's some kind of deist and personal beliefs are really what is bothering me at the moment.  When I was a theist I believed that all would be forgiven in time, including people who are "evil".  I'm not sure what I'm internalizing right now but I guess it's a fight between right and wrong going on in my head...

 

I really want to stop these guilty feelings, they seem centered in irrationality.  I just don't get it.  I'd appreciate some wisdom. Smiling  Sorry for being a big wuss and repetitive lol.  I will make it up one day with a donation to RRS I swear!  (Current finances = bleh.)  I don't know what would help me right now, there's plenty of great atheist people shitting all over irrationality on this site but it doesn't seem to help so much;  perhaps someone(s) can offer something that is like that but applied to my different problem?

 

I really appreciate that you personally read what I had to say.  I'd like to say that the biggest reason I posted this is because I can't be the only one like this.  I imagine a lot of people have the same or similar problems when it concerns all sorts of imposed beliefs; this one just seems exceptionally hard to tackle

 

Best wishes RRS, I hope we can figure out how to better battle the bad elements of human nature.  I am now going to start drinking liquor and see if that helps hehe.  

 

Much love.

 

 

I never thought there were corners in my mind until I was told to stand in one.

I have learned so much, thanks for keeping it real RRS.


stuntgibbon
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 I think this "strange

 I think this "strange feeling" you're talking about is your brain working.


The Doomed Soul
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My solution is

My solution is simple...

 

Kill the Cricket, Stop the Guilt

 


MrPal
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stuntgibbon wrote: I think

stuntgibbon wrote:

 I think this "strange feeling" you're talking about is your brain working.

 

LOL!  You're onto something, but guilt?

 

And thanks TDS that was good as well.  

 

I really hope we can all learn the intricacies of how the brain and thought works.  I'm usually the stoic type believe it or not but I thought some good would come from my emo post.  :p

I never thought there were corners in my mind until I was told to stand in one.

I have learned so much, thanks for keeping it real RRS.


BobSpence
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You know, that reminds of a

You know, that reminds of a intense experience I had back in 2000. Not like yours in itself, but seemed to have been brought on by some small nagging feeling of not exactly doubt, but maybe I was wrong to completely dismiss religious ideas.

The intense experience itself seemed to be a final resolution, a purging of that nagging question, leading to really strong positive feeling of finally 'getting it'.

I already described it to one of our Theist participants, as an example of how even us non-believers could have experiences of the same general nature as they frequently describe as confirming their beliefs, as a message from God, or Jesus, etc.

The content of such feelings was the same in the sense of a strong affirmation of your basic beliefs, whether in the existence of God or the existence of a world without God.

IOW, they were in no way proof of the beliefs, just a consequence of the belief.

I recount this because it seemed to show that even after decades of confident Atheism, as far as I could tell, there was still something like what you describe , lurking back there.

Whether it was a feeling that had seeped in there from the continual confrontation with God belief around me in society, or just something from way back that had never fully died, even though I never as far as I can remember really took God seriously.

So if I can have that, you, as an only recently emerged non-believer, or at least serious doubter, are far more more likely to experience something similar and stronger.

I think your sub-conscious hasn't quite worked thru all the arguments....

So don't give up.

Maybe you will have your 'epiphany'. It certainly felt great at the time.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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nigelTheBold
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Here's my guess: it's just

Here's my guess: it's just the fragments, habits, and thoughts from your old beliefs.

It takes a while to move from intellectual acceptance to fully integrating that into your life. What you are feeling is emotional inertia. And ironically, it's also the last bit of your old beliefs trying to sow doubt. "What if god does exist?" it says, with echoes of Pascal. (That's ironic because that's what agnosticism is all about -- admitting there's no way to know whether or not god exists -- doubt in its purest form.)

I understand this guilt can last quite a while. It might even pull you back into your old beliefs.

Do you believe this guilt is good? Does it serve a noble purpose? If it is a leftover from your old faith, what does it say about the old faith?

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


stuntgibbon
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 For me, the process wasn't

 For me, the process wasn't as dramatic.  All throughout my church-going days as a kid, I don't think I ever really "bought it."   I sorta assumed the god thing was true, but then learned I really just needed to keep quiet to get cookies.  I'd try to avoid church as much as possible because I thought it was boring, redundant and seemed like a place to listen to obviously tone deaf people "sing" and then ask for our money.   Don't judge people!  But why are you wearing THAT to church, check out my new shoes...   blah blah blah.

Later on I'd actually thought, well let's see..  I was only in that church because my parents brought me there, and NEVER went on my own.  What if there's a better one?  After all.. now I could choose anything.  So I started reading.. and couldn't find a compelling case why ones were particularly better than others.  Seems like most everyone just "chose" whatever their regional/family tradition already was.  After wiping the board clean and trying to start over, I kinda preferred the clean board.   I couldn't find compelling arguments TO believe anything or pick anything, so I was drawn more toward checking out arguments that supported "nothing." (or REALLY HIGHLY PROBABLY nothing)

At that point, once I'd churned through and understood the points, I couldn't both be honest with myself and a believer.   

Guilty for not believing? Never.  


Wonderist
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I think Bob is right, in

I think Bob is right, in that your sub-conscious doesn't quite have the hang of rationality yet. Intellectually, you can look at beliefs and see, "Yeah, that's crap." But subconsiously, there's still the feeling of truthiness there. I think this is a somewhat common reaction in people who are recently deconverted. Several people on this forum have said that they have or had lingering fears of hell, even after they were thoroughly intellectually convinced that the whole idea was absurd. And yet, the fear remained.

So, I think the same thing is going on with you. You have this worn, cut path in your brain of thinking about the 'ultimate role model', and you likely have some old rationalizations kicking around in there from when you used to believe.

For me, the way to break out of these subconscious patterns of thought is to constantly scrutinize them until I finally get an epiphany. The way I do it is like this: "Well, how do I really know that?" "Maybe because of X?" "Hmmm, naw. Nope, that doesn't make sense." "But it still seems true." "Well, how do I really know that?" "Maybe because of Y?" "Nope, I debunked that one last week." "But it still seems true." "Well, how do I really know that?" Etc.

It's that pernicious question of "How do I really know that?" which I keep asking myself over and over again, trying to find holes in my beliefs. Until finally, one day, I 'get it':

"Well, how do I really know that?" "Hmmmm... I guess... I don't."

Bang!

"Holy crap! I *don't* know that. I have no reason to believe it. I never did! The whole thing was just self-deception. Pretending to know what I really didn't."

This is a big epiphany process for me. On the surface, it seems like I've broken down something, and I should be sad that something has broken. But really, the only thing that is broken is fear! Fear of being wrong. Fear of the consequences of not holding on to some 'precious' belief. But the 'precious', like the One Ring that Gollum calls 'precious' in the Lord of the Ring, is really just a mental shackle, a trap, a cage.

When I break that fear, I haven't lost anything, I've gained a tremendous freedom! Wow, there really is no hell! Nothing to fear. Wow, there really isn't anything wrong with people being homosexual! No need to fear them. Wow, there really aren't separate races! Wow, there really isn't some impossible-to-live-up-to ideal role-model! I can just be myself, and there's nothing wrong with that. Nothing to fear.

Now, right at this moment, you may be feeling that the ultimate role-model isn't such a bad thing. It's comforting. It feels safe. If such a thing exists, then it provides a solid ground to stand on. But that feeling of safety, though it *feels* positive, is really based on fear. The fear is "What if I don't have that safety?!" And that fear is too much, so you cling desperately to the irrational belief, even though you know intellectually that it doesn't make sense.

When I say, 'breaking the fear', it may sound like 'giving up the comfort', but no, it really is a breaking of a fear. The comfort is in response to your avoiding the fear. The fear is keeping you stuck, and the comfort is really just 'the easy path'.

When you break these irrational beliefs, the alternative is not something to be afraid of. The fear is an illusion. That's why we want to break it.

The alternative is actually much better, and more free. Freedom of thought. How truly precious that is -- much more precious than a 'precious' belief clung to in fear.

So, with that preamble in mind, let's examine your fears, and ask, "How do you really know that?" The goal is the epiphany, "Holy crap! You really don't!" With that epiphany, your subconscious will finally 'get' what your intellectual mind already can see.

MrPal wrote:
I've spent a lot of my life figuring stuff like "God is omnipotent and the perfect role model to do our best to both worship and mimick, though micmiking entirely is impossible".

Does that still 'feel true'? How do you really know that? Examine that. You've spent a lot of your life coming up with these kinds of rationalizations. The thought-tracks in your subconscious are deep ruts. You want to work your thought patterns out of those ruts. What do you find compelling about this idea of a perfect, but impossible role-model? Then ask, "How do I really know that?" If the role-model is so impossible, then wouldn't God itself be impossible? If it's not actually impossible, could it really be perfect? Is perfection even possible at all? Does it even make sense? Do you know of anything that's perfect? Isn't perfection just an idea, a concept, an invention of the mind? Keep questioning, and working yourself out of your mental ruts. Eventually, you'll break out, and gain more freedom.

Quote:
I suppose the idea of a perfect role model to attempt to copy is still in my mind as being a good thing.

How do you really know that? Are you just afraid that you can't act morally on your own, without such a role-model to follow? Is it mentally healthy to hold yourself up to an admittedly impossible standard? Is it really such a good thing to imagine a perfect role model to copy? Doesn't that force you into a mindset where there is only *one* way of being good? After all, you're not imagining two perfect role-models, just one. Maybe the idea of a single perfect role-model actually does more harm than good. How do you really know that it's a good thing? Maybe it's not. Maybe it's bad, in fact. Maybe it pushes people into a mind-set of "I've got the right idea about perfect morality, and you've got the wrong idea." After all, probably my conception of a perfect role-model is different than yours! Who's got the right one?! Doesn't the idea of a single role-model make you become more bigoted and intolerant of differing opinions? It certainly seems to do that with a lot of monotheists I've seen.

Quote:
One being I am torn between the dichotomy of denouncing any form of belief in God, as opposed to entertaining my old thoughts of my "role model" as legitimate and good.

Is that really a true dichotomy? How do you really know that? Do you have to renounce any form of belief in God? Or can you simply say, "I just don't have any good reasons to believe in any gods. Maybe if someone showed me good reasons, I would change my mind, but until then, I remain unconvinced." Suddenly, the dichotomy doesn't seem to be very di. Maybe tri, maybe more.

Quote:
I wonder, if God does exist, am I committing an injustice by not acknowledging him?  If God does exist then it would hypothetically be the ethical thing to exalt the one who created me etc, would it not?

Well, how do you really know that? As long as we're inventing possible gods, maybe if god exists, you're doing an injustice *by* acknowledging him. Sounds just as plausible to me, seeing as how they are both inventions of the human imagination with no reason to believe in either one. Maybe it's a her and not a him. Maybe by acknowledging it, the god is actually losing a bet with his friend Alice, the other god who created the other universe. Maybe this is all a game, a friendly wager, and the contest is to see who can make a universe where it takes the longest for the creatures inside to acknowledge their gods. Our god has managed to go 13.5 billion years without anyone acknowledging him. He was about to break the cosmic record of 13.8 billion years without acknowledgment, and here we humans had to come along and fuck up his game. We just lost god a ton of money.

Likewise, if god exists, then it would *hypothetically* be a totally *unethical* thing to exalt the one who created you, would it not? Key word: hypothetically.

This scenario sounds exactly as plausible to me as Yahweh or Allah or the FSM.

The question, once again, is "How do you really know, one way or the other?" The answer is, you don't.

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MrPal
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  Sorry I haven't replied

  Sorry I haven't replied sooner!  Thank you very much for your excellent replies.  I've reread them a few times during the course of my all nighter and it has helped me a lot.  Once again I find myself grateful of RRS.     I'm feeling a lot better right now.  All of you said something very eye opening and thoughtful, thank you for caring.  Smiling

 

I've been pondering the advice given all night, and trying to reply well, but it just hasn't come to me yet.  I'm confident I'll be able to soon though...  I will say that when I'm trying harder to examine what's going on, it "pushes harder" against my good reasoning.

 

Thanks again, much love.

I never thought there were corners in my mind until I was told to stand in one.

I have learned so much, thanks for keeping it real RRS.


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I think it's fair to say that

 

The physical structure of a god brain needs time to rewire. Even years after deconversion I can slip into god-brain if I'm in the right mood.

I think you need to realise that all the values, strengths and beauties appropriated by the world's faiths don't belong to them but to us human beings.

There's absolutely no difference in the goodness of your heart, or the beauty of the world in the instant after you decide to shelve god.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


v4ultingbassist
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Atheistextremist wrote: The

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

The physical structure of a god brain needs time to rewire. Even years after deconversion I can slip into god-brain if I'm in the right mood.

I think you need to realise that all the values, strengths and beauties appropriated by the world's faiths don't belong to them but to us human beings.

There's absolutely no difference in the goodness of your heart, or the beauty of the world in the instant after you decide to shelve god.

 

 

 

Haha, same thing happened to me after watching one of those Carl Sagan music videos.  I had a sudden pantheism surge, and the next day I was wondering what the hell had come over me. lol


Hambydammit
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  I'm going on the

 

 I'm going on the assumption that you're willing to put in some effort to understand and alleviate your guilt, so I'm going to put you onto a couple of lengthy pieces I've written that I think will help.

Quote:
I know that I hold better beliefs on what is ethical than a large percent of theists.  I suppose it's some kind of deist and personal beliefs are really what is bothering me at the moment.  When I was a theist I believed that all would be forgiven in time, including people who are "evil".  I'm not sure what I'm internalizing right now but I guess it's a fight between right and wrong going on in my head...

Please read THIS PIECE on Christian morality.  When you're finished, you'll hopefully see that not only are you on the moral high ground without theism, but Christians are actually projecting.  Christians are the ones with hopelessly relative morality!

If you're still having problems understanding morality without religion, read THIS PIECE which further explains how morality can be both objective and subjective.

Quote:
There's also this...  I wonder, if God does exist, am I committing an injustice by not acknowledging him?  If God does exist then it would hypothetically be the ethical thing to exalt the one who created me etc, would it not?  Writing out my problem seems to be helping me by the way...

Let's think about this for a second.  Suppose I live in Guam and you live in Portugal.  Are you doing an injustice to me by not acknowledging my existence?  Outside of the obligatory acknowledgement we owe to all people in a philosophical sense, you're not.  My life doesn't impact yours, and I have nothing to gain or lose by your acknowledgment.  Where acknowledgment is "owed" is where an entreaty has been offered.  In other words, you don't owe me acknowledgment until I've given you a reason to do so.

Now, consider that there is no empirical or logical reason to believe that there is a god.  But, instead of going the normal route, let's assume the evidence is wrong.  There actually is a god.  Here's the kicker:  God has not given us any reason to acknowledge him because he hasn't given us any reason to believe he exists!  For all practical purposes, God is in Guam, hiding out and drinking Pina Coladas.  He's not doing anything for you, and there's no reason to think he'd want anything from you.  If he wanted something from you, don't you think that because he's all powerful and what-not, he'd be able to ask you for it?

Quote:
I also think the feelings of guilt are at least in part because theists love to shove it down other people's throats that they are guilty.  Of course atheists are guilty of nothing, in fact it's the opposite I'm sure, but it's hard to internalize this considering these social norms have been pushed on me for so very long.

Theists are notorious for projection.  As I've written in the articles I linked, it is theists who have no foundation on which to base their morality.  By leaving this fatally flawed moral framework, you are actually putting yourself in a position where you can take responsibility for your own actions and use your own brain to work out what is right and what is wrong.  Guilt is one of the most effective ways to get someone to do something they don't want.  Think of the abusive husband whose wife stays because she thinks it's her fault he gets so mad and beats her.  The same thing happens in Christianity.  God in the bible is one of the most petulant, vile, and childish figures in all of literature, and yet good people are made to feel guilty for what logically is God's fault.  It's a scam.

Quote:
Anyway, I'm really wondering where this is coming from and I think this feeling of false guilt may be from a few things.  I honestly don't know! But I have a few hypotheses.  One being I am torn between the dichotomy of denouncing any form of belief in God, as opposed to entertaining my old thoughts of my "role model" as legitimate and good.  Am I making sense?

The Christian God is an atrociously evil character.  The number of deaths he's personally responsible for make Hitler and Stalin look like pretty ok fellas.   You'd be a lot better off finding a human role model. 

Quote:
GE 3:1-722-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)

GE 4:2-8 God's arbitrary preference of Abel's offering to that of Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder and kill his brother Abel.

GE 34:13-29 The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.

GE 6:11-177:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.

GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).

GE 38:9 "... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked ..., so the Lord put him to death."

EX 2:12 Moses murders an Egyptian.

EX 7:1149:14-1610:1-211:7 The purpose of the devastation that God brings to the Egyptians is as follows:
to show that he is Lord;
to show that there is none like him in all the earth;
to show his great power;
to cause his name to be declared throughout the earth;
to give the Israelites something to talk about with their children;
to show that he makes a distinction between Israel and Egypt.

EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.

EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.

EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.

EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.

EX 32:27 "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.

EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.

LE 26:7-8 The Lord promises the Israelites that, if they are obedient, their enemies will "fall before your sword."

LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."

LE 26:29DT 28:53JE 19:9EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.

LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)

NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.

NU 12:1-10 God makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses.

NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.

NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.

NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.

NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.

NU 21:3 The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.

NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.

NU 21:35 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay Og "... and his sons and all his people, until there was not one survivor left ...."

NU 25:4 (KJV) "And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."

NU 25:8 "He went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly."

NU 25:9 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.

NU 31:9 The Israelites capture Midianite women and children.

NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)

NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.

DT 2:33-34 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.

DT 3:6 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Og.

DT 7:2 The Lord commands the Israelites to "utterly destroy" and shown "no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.

DT 20:13-14 "When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."

DT 20:16 "In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."

DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

DT 28:53 "You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you."

JS 1:1-918 Joshua receives the Lord's blessing for all the bloody endeavors to follow.

JS 6:21-27 With the Lord's approval, Joshua destroys the city of Jericho men, women, and children with the edge of the sword.

JS 7:19-26 Achan, his children and his cattle are stoned to death because Achan had taken a taboo thing.

JS 8:22-25 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly smites the people of Ai, killing 12,000 men and women, so that there were none who escaped.

JS 10:10-27 With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites.

JS 10:28 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah.

JS 10:30 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites.

JS 10:32-33 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish.

JS 10:34-35 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites.

JS 10:36-37 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites.

JS 10:38-39 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites.

JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

JS 11:6 The Lord orders horses to be hamstrung. (Exceedingly cruel.)

JS 11:8-15 "And the lord gave them into the hand of Israel, ...utterly destroying them; there was none left that breathed ...."

JS 11:20 "For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be utterly destroyed, and should receive no mercy but be exterminated, as the Lord commanded Moses."

JS 11:21-23 Joshua utterly destroys the Anakim.

JG 1:4 With the Lord's support, Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek.

JG 1:6 With the Lord's approval, Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.

JG 1:8 With the Lord's approval, Judah smites Jerusalem.

JG 1:17 With the Lord's approval, Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.

JG 3:29 The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites.

JG 3:31 (A restatement.) Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an oxgoad.

JG 4:21 Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground.

JG 7:19-25 The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon.

JG 8:15-21 The Gideons slaughter the men of Penuel.

JG 9:5 Abimalech murders his brothers.

JG 9:45 Abimalech and his men kill all the people in the city.

JG 9:53-54 "A woman dropped a stone on his head and cracked his skull. Hurriedly he called to his armor-bearer, 'Draw your sword and kill me, so that they can't say a woman killed me.' So his servant ran him through, and he died."

JG 11:29-39 Jepthah sacrifices his beloved daughter, his only child, according to a vow he has made with the Lord.

JG 14:19 The Spirit of the Lord comes upon a man and causes him to slay thirty men.

JG 15:15 Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.

JG 16:21 The Philistines gouge out Samson's eyes.

JG 16:27-30 Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000 other men and women.

JG 18:27 The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish.

JG 19:22-29 A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine (or wife): "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The man's concubine is ravished and dies. The man then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends one piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

JG 20:43-48 The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire.

JG 21:10-12 "... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." They do so and find four hundred young virgins whom they bring back for their own use.

1SA 4:10 The Philistines slay 30,000 Israelite foot soldiers.

1SA 5:6-9 The Lord afflicts the Philistines with tumors in their "secret parts," presumably for having stolen the Ark.

1SA 6:19 God kills seventy men (or so) for looking into the Ark (at him?). (Note: The early Israelites apparently thought the Ark to be God's abode.)

1SA 7:7-11 Samuel and his men smite the Philistines.

1SA 11:11 With the Lord's blessing, Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.

1SA 14:31 Jonathan and his men strike down the Philistines.

1SA 14:48 Saul smites the Amalekites.

1SA 15:37-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."

1SA 15:33 "Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord ...."

1SA 18:7 The women sing as they make merry: "Saul has slain his thousands and David his ten thousands."

1SA 18:27 David murders 200 Philistines, then cuts off their foreskins.

1SA 30:17 David smites the Amalekites.

2SA 2:23 Abner kills Asahel.

2SA 3:30 Joab and Abishai kill Abner.

2SA 4:7-8 Rechan and Baanah kill Ish-bosheth, behead him, and take his head to David.

2SA 4:12 David has Rechan and Baanah killed, their hands and feet cut off, and their bodies hanged by the pool at Hebron.

2SA 5:25 "And David did as the Lord commanded him, and smote the Philistines ...."

2SA 6:2-23 Because she rebuked him for having exposed himself, Michal (David's wife) was barren throughout her life.

2SA 8:1-18 (A listing of some of David's murderous conquests.)

2SA 8:4 David hamstrung all but a few of the horses.

2SA 8:5 David slew 22,000 Syrians.

2SA 8:614 "The Lord gave victory to David wherever he went."

2SA 8:13 David slew 18,000 Edomites in the valley of salt and made the rest slaves.

2SA 10:18 David slew 47,000+ Syrians.

2SA 11:14-27 David has Uriah killed so that he can marry Uriah's wife, Bathsheba.

2SA 12:119 The Lord strikes David's child dead for the sin that David has committed.

2SA 13:1-15 Amnon loves his sister Tamar, rapes her, then hates her.

2SA 13:28-29 Absalom has Amnon murdered.

2SA 18:6 -7 20,000 men are slaughtered at the battle in the forest of Ephraim.

2SA 18:15 Joab's men murder Absalom.

2SA 20:10-12 Joab's men murder Amasa and leave him "... wallowing in his own blood in the highway. And anyone who came by, seeing him, stopped."

2SA 24:15 The Lord sends a pestilence on Israel that kills 70,000 men.

1KI 2:24-25 Solomon has Adonijah murdered.

1KI 2:29-34 Solomon has Joab murdered.

1KI 2:46 Solomon has Shime-i murdered.

1KI 13:15-24 A man is killed by a lion for eating bread and drinking water in a place where the Lord had previously told him not to. This is in spite of the fact that the man had subsequently been lied to by a prophet who told the man that an angel of the Lord said that it would be alright to eat and drink there.

1KI 20:29-30 The Israelites smite 100,000 Syrian soldiers in one day. A wall falls on 27,000 remaining Syrians.

2KI 1:10-12 Fire from heaven comes down and consumes fifty men.

2KI 2:23-24 Forty-two children are mauled and killed, presumably according to the will of God, for having jeered at a man of God.

2KI 5:27 Elisha curses Gehazi and his descendants forever with leprosy.

2KI 6:18-19 The Lord answers Elisha's prayer and strikes the Syrians with blindness. Elisha tricks the blind Syrians and leads them to Samaria.

2KI 6:29 "So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him."

2KI 9:24 Jehu tricks and murders Joram.

2KI 9:27 Jehu has Ahaziah killed.

2KI 9:30-37 Jehu has Jezebel killed. Her body is trampled by horses. Dogs eat her flesh so that only her skull, feet, and the palms of her hands remain.

2KI 10:7 Jehu has Ahab's seventy sons beheaded, then sends the heads to their father.

2KI 10:14 Jehu has forty-two of Ahab's kin killed.

2KI 10:17 "And when he came to Samaria, he slew all that remained to Ahab in Samaria, till he had wiped them out, according to the word of the Lord ...."

2KI 10:19-27 Jehu uses trickery to massacre the Baal worshippers.

2KI 11:1 Athaliah destroys all the royal family.

2KI 14:57 Amaziah kills his servants and then 10,000 Edomites.

2KI 15:3-5 Even though he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, the Lord smites Azariah with leprosy for not having removed the "high places."

2KI 15:16 Menahem ripped open all the women who were pregnant.

2KI 19:35 An angel of the Lord kills 185,000 men.

1CH 20:3 (KJV) "And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes."

2CH 13:17 500,000 Israelites are slaughtered.

2CH 21:4 Jehoram slays all his brothers.

PS 137:9 Happy will be the man who dashes your little ones against the stones.

PS 144:1 God is praised as the one who trains hands for war and fingers for battle.

IS 13:15 "Everyone who is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their ... wives will be ravished."

IS 13:18 "Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children."

IS 14:21-22 "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers."

IS 49:26 The Lord will cause the oppressors of the Israelite's to eat their own flesh and to become drunk on their own blood as with wine.

JE 16:4 "They shall die grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcasses shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth."

LA 4:9-10 "Those slain by the sword are better off than those who die of famine; racked with hunger, they waste away for lack of food. ... pitiful women have cooked their own children, who became their food ..."

EZ 6:12-13 The Lord says: "... they will fall by the sword, famine and plague. He that is far away will die of the plague, and he that is near will fall by the sword, and he that survives and is spared will die of famine. So will I spend my wrath upon them. And they will know I am the Lord, when the people lie slain among their idols around their altars, on every high hill and on all the mountaintops, under every spreading tree and every leafy oak ...."

EZ 9:4-6 The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women ...."

EZ 20:26 In order that he might horrify them, the Lord allowed the Israelites to defile themselves through, amongst other things, the sacrifice of their first-born children.

EZ 21:3-4 The Lord says that he will cut off both the righteous and the wicked that his sword shall go against all flesh.

EZ 23:2547 God is going to slay the sons and daughters of those who were whores.

EZ 23:34 "You shall ... pluck out your hair, and tear your breasts."

HO 13:16 "They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

MI 3:2-3 "... who pluck off their skin ..., and their flesh from off their bones; Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron."

MT 3:128:1210:2113:304222:1324:5125:30LK 13:28JN 5:24 Some will spend eternity burning in Hell. There will be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

MT 10:21 "... the brother shall deliver up his brother to death, and the father his child, ... children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death."

MT 10:35-36 "For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law a man's enemies will be the members of his own family."

MT 11:21-24 Jesus curses [the inhabitants of] three cities who were not sufficiently impressed with his great works.

AC 13:11 Paul purposefully blinds a man (though not permanently).

Source

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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it takes time

 I have pretty recently deconverted, about 9 months ago. Anyways, I'm sure everyone's brain is freaking out and going into logical thinking shock once one admits they no longer believe something they have invested so much of their life into. Keep your mind thinking, it is a good thing. What would be bad is if you simply believed something just because someone told you it was true. Isn't that what we did in the first place when we were theist. My brain shock finally ended and so did my fear of hell and all of that. Thats about all I have to say, peace. 

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Why would God ever want you

Why would God ever want you to acknowledge him? It's important what person you are and how do you behave to others, not if you tip your hat every time you meet God on the street. If God is worth anything, he will know that. If there is no God, you don't have to worry. And if you just made God angry by not climbing up his ass anymore, then it serves him right! Smiling Rejoice, there is an opportunity ahead of you to show your courage and overcome one of greatest fears, that enslaved whole countries during medieval ages. I believe it will make you stronger and more self- confident.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Thanks again guys and to say

Thanks again guys and to say it again, I really appreciate the support.  I still don't know what to reply but just wanted to express my gratitude.  There's a lot of good things said here to reply to!  It has directly or indirectly helped me dash away the things I described.

 

I'm now putting a lot of thought into what level I want to take my personal non-believer activism to...  Is there a non-believer alliance or anything like that?  Or maybe an atheist handbook haha...  I'd love to see that.

 

I'm off to read Hamby's links now.  Thanks again guys.

 

(Oh and by the way Hamby I actually had someone unrelated to this forum link me to your blog the other day, I thought that was pretty cool!)

 

I never thought there were corners in my mind until I was told to stand in one.

I have learned so much, thanks for keeping it real RRS.


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That "feeling of guilt" is a

That "feeling of guilt" is a natural residual affect of the prior constant bombardment in your life that belief was a virtue. It has nothing to do with believing a particular label, just that society treats it as a taboo not to be challenged.

To this day I can remember after reading an AP opinion of an atheist nurse after 9/11 wanting to find other atheists. It was the first time that I decided to be unafraid of seeking out like minded people. But because of the deep indoctrination society had inflicted on me since I was a kid, when I clicked on my first atheist website, I litterally thought to myself, "What am I doing? Am I exploring a cult?".

Your "feelings of guilt" are natural, but falsely instilled on you by society. The reality is that you have nothing to feel guilty about. It would be no different than say if a Muslim decided that they no longer believed in Allah would have a hard time in Muslim societies.

Many of us here have had those same feelings, but rest assured, over time, they go away.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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I don't normally jump in

I don't normally jump in just to cheer, but I'll make an exception this time. <<< closest I could get to a cheerleader

Excellent posts, both Luminon and Brian37! I thought you guys both brought the topic down to Earth and put it into practical words. It's really a simple idea. Why feel guilty for something you're not doing wrong? It's an artificial guilt instilled by society, and it serves no good purpose.

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 So I was lying in bed last

 So I was lying in bed last night and the thought occurred to me that I'm afraid of there not being a God.  It means a lot of things: no afterlife, no divine justice for evil men, stuff like that.  

 

Everyone hit the nail right on the head with their posts so thanks again!  Particularly exceptional points that have helped include the emotional inertia, the fear, theist projection, rewiring my brain, and more.  Thanks a ton to everyone who posted!

 

I didn't think of it when I was trying to sleep, but it really hit me today that my confusing feelings were based in fear and guilt as well as a haunting past...  But now I realize that I really have nothing to fear or feel bad about.  Everyone has to die.  Everyone has to deal with injustice (obviously some more than others though.)  Etc.  These things are either fair or should be fair to every last one of us.

 

My fear is turning into courage and strength!  I'm freer now and that has too many benefits to explain.  Ever.

 

Even if we entertain the notion of there being a God, what has God offered to us in regard to improve ourselves and know the truth of things?  Nothing, in fact, it would be less than nothing considering a few things but including how religion has always held back science and ethics.  As a matter of fact if God exists, I'd say he appreciates atheists and agnostics for being free above those who do nothing but cause fear and illogic.

 

I'll hold it to that, "you're not my blog."   

 

Thank you so much for the clarity RRS.   

 

 

I never thought there were corners in my mind until I was told to stand in one.

I have learned so much, thanks for keeping it real RRS.


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 So... who wins the toaster

 So... who wins the toaster on this guy?  


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Lol

 

I think we should let him keep it...

Maybe we need a de-conversion testimonal drum.

Think of the t-shirts:

"RRS saved me from an eternity in hell!"

"Now I tell god to go fuck himself - thanks RRS!"

 

Anyway pal - in case it hasn't occured to you yet, you are part of RRS - stop talking all separate-like.

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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MrPal wrote: So I was lying

MrPal wrote:

 So I was lying in bed last night and the thought occurred to me that I'm afraid of there not being a God.  It means a lot of things: no afterlife, no divine justice for evil men, stuff like that.  

 

Everyone hit the nail right on the head with their posts so thanks again!  Particularly exceptional points that have helped include the emotional inertia, the fear, theist projection, rewiring my brain, and more.  Thanks a ton to everyone who posted!

 

I didn't think of it when I was trying to sleep, but it really hit me today that my confusing feelings were based in fear and guilt as well as a haunting past...  But now I realize that I really have nothing to fear or feel bad about.  Everyone has to die.  Everyone has to deal with injustice (obviously some more than others though.)  Etc.  These things are either fair or should be fair to every last one of us.

 

My fear is turning into courage and strength!  I'm freer now and that has too many benefits to explain.  Ever.

 

Even if we entertain the notion of there being a God, what has God offered to us in regard to improve ourselves and know the truth of things?  Nothing, in fact, it would be less than nothing considering a few things but including how religion has always held back science and ethics.  As a matter of fact if God exists, I'd say he appreciates atheists and agnostics for being free above those who do nothing but cause fear and illogic.

 

I'll hold it to that, "you're not my blog."   

 

Thank you so much for the clarity RRS.   

 

 

Prove your thanks to RRS.  Barbecue a kitten and make a recording, description or account of the NFL without their express written permission.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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 Quote:Anyway pal - in case

 

Quote:
Anyway pal - in case it hasn't occured to you yet, you are part of RRS - stop talking all separate-like.

I second this motion.

Pal, most of us here are ex-theists.  You're at the beginning of a wonderful journey.  Some of us have been on the road for a long time.  We're still all on the same road.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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 Thanks guys.

 Thanks guys.    Related:

 


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Ah, MrPal, your posts in

Ah, MrPal, your posts in this thread are very refreshing.

MrPal wrote:
So I was lying in bed last night and the thought occurred to me that I'm afraid of there not being a God.  It means a lot of things: no afterlife, no divine justice for evil men, stuff like that.
 

I think it's important to emphasize that beliefs and desires do not change reality. It might be even more important to notice when we are personally biased for or against a claim simply because it appeals to our emotions. It's hard to honestly evaluate the validity of ideas that we fear, but if we don't, we are putting our comfort before the truth.  

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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BobSpence1 wrote:You know,

BobSpence1 wrote:

You know, that reminds of a intense experience I had back in 2000. Not like yours in itself, but seemed to have been brought on by some small nagging feeling of not exactly doubt, but maybe I was wrong to completely dismiss religious ideas.

I am going to frame this and hang it on my wall.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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MrPal wrote:So I was lying

MrPal wrote:
So I was lying in bed last night and the thought occurred to me that I'm afraid of there not being a God.  It means a lot of things: no afterlife, no divine justice for evil men, stuff like that.
  You know, I'm the slowly understanding theist here, and I don't understand how these things are related to God. I can understand that God would make possible to suffer in Hell eternally, or roll your hams in Heaven also eternally. But this is not justice, and not the only possible form of afterlife. Bible isn't the best source to study afterlife, I'd personally recommend Far Journeys series by Robert Allan Monroe.

 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.