Black Hat Climate Crisis

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Black Hat Climate Crisis

There are a few things I don't argue about. One of them is the weather. But I ran across an article today on Wired.com (link) that just made me laugh out loud. Apparently the University of East Anglia's Climate Research Unit in the United Kingdom had their servers hacked and thousands of their internal emails and memos leaked online. You can download the files via bitorrent here if you're interested:

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5171206

I downloaded the file myself and found nothing malicious (in terms of harming your computer) but there are a few funny memos about "communicating climate change", one of them is called "the rules of the game" which sounds like some kind of lame ebook for wannabe pick-up-artists.
After a quick look around at some of the blogs that have picked up the story it seems some of the more embarrassing emails (those suggesting manipulation of data) are being posted. Which I find hilarious. I bet Al Gore really regrets inventing the internet now.  


 

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Deleted the other version of

Deleted the other version of this thread

 

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Well, I saw that on google

Well, I saw that on google news yesterday. Grabbed the file last night (thanks for the torrent BTW). The only thing being that it is a really huge file, so I have to wonder how anyone has found anything useful from it so quickly.

 

 

I did read on a few of the anti-warming blogs some pull quotes that are supposed to be in there. Since this file is fairly new, I really think that anything either for or against needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

 

In any case, let's just say for shits and giggles that everything that anyone claims is in there really is. What does that leave us with? Ignoring the possibility of some of the emails being forgeries, I have to wonder if any of it really means all that much.

 

 

One thought that occurs to me is that scientists are human and subject to the normal range of behaviors. Consider Galileo as the example. One reading of his story could easily be that he was censured for basically being an ass. However, today, nobody really questions that he was an ass who happened to be right.

 

Another thing goes to the size of the work. Even if there is material in there for quote mining, this does not change the fact that there is quite a bit of material there and finding little bits here and there is probably not the smoking gun of having been lied to by the scientific community.

 

Come on, this is science and fairly close to the cutting edge at that. In that realm, scientists are often mistaken about lots of stuff. Hence the reason for peer review. In layman's terms, peer review amounts to scientists asking each other to look at their work and basically asking the question “Does this look right to you?”.

 

Could the scientific community be wrong about global warming? I suppose so but given the volume of data that now exists, the odds are that what errors are still not discovered are in the details rather than the overall picture. Honestly, I doubt that a full reversal of the current paradigm in in the offing here. Will some of the details in the current literature be reversed? I would be quite surprised if that did not happen. Even so, one cannot really deny that the north polar ice cap is quite a bit smaller than it used to be.

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Thanks for the reply. I

Thanks for the reply. I think those are fair statements. I don't believe that the scientific theory of anthropogenic global warming would be derailed even by clear evidence of obvious fraud (which I don't think this constitutes anyway) in the same way that over 2000 christ-less years doesn't stop Christians from believing that Jesus will appear on their doorstep tomorrow.

I think it's damning in the sense that the science of catastrophic warming is married to a political agenda that is almost universally unpopular because it has to do with de-industrialization, lowering the standard of living, and renegotiating the relationship between labor and capital in favor of capital. Anything that makes people more suspicious will help to stall these laws and treaties. And that's what I'd like to see. In my opinion that would be good.

 

EDIT:

Yeah, I think that scientific consensus and peer review should be reliable. But when you have a case like this where people are saying basically 'Well, we want to say that those who break with the consensus can't refer to peer-reviewed studies but they can, so we're going to pull support from publications that print papers suggesting that we might be wrong, or have people who break with consensus ousted from their positions' then there's a problem, and the reliability of scientific consensus and peer review comes into question.

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It is indeed sad that global

It is indeed sad that global warming has turned into a political agenda.... I don't accept that we cannot prevent it (if it is indeed happening) without lowering standards of living etc. Really we just need a new clean power source to replace oil (we will need a new power source at some point anyway) then a large part of the battle has been won.

 

Im happy that south africa basically said screw you our development goals come first, after that we shall worry about climate change. After all even if global warming is happening (i think it is likely, maybe not exactly as it currently is thought to be... I don't know) it is first world countries that have had the benefit of developing already... we have not. Us conforming to the climate change goals will prevent us from developing at this point in time... maintaining a the current balance of power. This is unacceptable to me. 

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 So I've been scanning a

 So I've been scanning a lot of stuff like this lately. If the e-mails are real, and nobody is really arguing that they're not (mainly just the definition of "trick" ), then this is pretty... big stuff.


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Thanks for responding: You

Thanks for responding: You will all reveive carbon allowances.


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London Telegraph reports on

London Telegraph reports on comments made by George Monbiot, reporter for the Gaurdian and staunch defender of anthropogenic global warming who writes:

George Monbiot wrote:

“It’s no use pretending that this isn’t a major blow. The emails extracted by a hacker from the climatic research unit at the University of East Anglia could scarcely be more damaging. I am now convinced that they are genuine, and I’m dismayed and deeply shaken by them,” 

“Yes, the messages were obtained illegally. Yes, all of us say things in emails that would be excruciating if made public. Yes, some of the comments have been taken out of context. But there are some messages that require no spin to make them look bad. There appears to be evidence here of attempts to prevent scientific data from being released, and even to destroy material that was subject to a freedom of information request.”

“Worse still, some of the emails suggest efforts to prevent the publication of work by climate sceptics, or to keep it out of a report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. I believe that the head of the unit, Phil Jones, should now resign. Some of the data discussed in the emails should be re-analysed.”

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I feel obligated to respond

I feel obligated to respond in this topic due to my backing of theories and hypothesis' on global warming. I'm disgusted that people who would call themselves scientists would even consider falsifying information. I say good job to whoever released this information, regardless of the inevitable backlash against any real science which supports the global warming scenario. Talk about a step backwards.

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Ugh...........disgusting.

Ugh...........disgusting.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Since I can see that this

Since I can see that this discussion was over before it began. In my opinion because you're a bunch of naive environmentalists who like to sit around lamenting about how there are "too many people" never realizing that you are one of those people and that the policy-making environmentalists are operating based on an ideology of opposition to the existence of humans, industrial society, economic growth, and technological advancement of any kind particularly energy technology, because as the science czar of the US John Holdren said clean-burning, non-polluting, hydrogen-using bulldozers still could knock down trees or build housing developments on farmland, I'll make my final comments and leave it at that.

  If you want to support a bunch of people attempting to cut off access to any resources and technology that could meet current energy needs even after you find out that they are lying and manipulating the peer review process because you get moist thinking about "saving the earth" from the wicked humans, consider what Charles Percy Snow said in his lecture "The Two Cultures":

Quote:
For, of course, one truth is straightforward. Industrialization is the only hope of the poor. It is all very well for one, as a personal choice, to reject industrialization - do a modern Walden, if you like, and if you go without much food, see most of your children die in infancy, despise the comforts of literacy, accept twenty years off your own life, then I respect you for the strength of your aesthetic revulsion. But I don't respect you in the slightest if, even passively, you try to impose the same choice on others who are not free to choose. In fact, we know what their choice would be. For, with singular unanimity, in any country where they have had the chance, the poor have walked off the land into the factories as fast as the factories could take them.

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:3

 I don't see anything about anyone falsifying anything in the actual emails.

 

I think this is construed and taken out of context for a political agenda. The things they are pointing at and hand-waving over are things like saying "use this data internally but don't let it get out into the wrong hands", and pointing out that it isn't the whole picture so it could be used as a political tool. Basically, emails to prevent what people are doing now from happening. 

 

 

"The Korttajarvi record was oriented in the reconstruction in the way that McIntyre said. I took a look at the original reference – the temperature proxy we looked at is x-ray density, which the author interprets to be inversely related to temperature. We had higher values as warmer in the reconstruction, so it looks to me like we got it wrong, unless we decided to reinterpret the record which I don’t remember. Darrell, does this sound right to you?"

 

 

This is what they claim is modifying the data. Not really..."reinterpret" means exactly that, analysis. But hey, where there is potential handwaving why not jump all over it?

 

 

http://greenfyre.wordpress.com/2009/11/21/climate-deniers-hoax-themselves-again/

 

This guy goes over the supposed "hot-button" emails out of the list. 

 

 

Another joke from people in denial of global warming. Laughing out loud

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To be honest I don't believe

To be honest I don't believe you. I don't believe you read the emails or computer code but I want people to see that they can respond with similar apologetics if they want and I won't go for their throats. So thanks for the reply.

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Well nothing in Gauche's

Well nothing in Gauche's last post applies to me.

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Vastet wrote:Well nothing in

Vastet wrote:
Well nothing in Gauche's last post applies to me.

 

I wasn't talking about the people who did reply. At least you guys put on your uniforms and got ready to play. I was talking about all the phonies who like to stroke their pet causes on these boards that they care about so much, but now I can see that one of those causes isn't scientific integrity so why should anyone really gives a shit what they have to say.

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   Ultimately I don't care

   Ultimately I don't care about global warming nearly as much as I do in depopulating the Earth, that notion applies to any nation be they 1'st world or 3'rd world.  Something like China's birth control policy would be a fitting approach. 

www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/misanthropy

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:  

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

   Ultimately I don't care about global warming nearly as much as I do in depopulating the Earth, that notion applies to any nation be they 1'st world or 3'rd world.  Something like China's birth control policy would be a fitting approach. 

It's nice to see you'll go on record in favor of global implementation of forced abortion, sterilization and state sponsored kidnapping. I don't imagine paradise could be far away if only we could have that imposed on everyone.

 

Why isn't industrialization a fitting approach? That reduces birth rates and raises living standards and longevity. You see you don't don't want to oppress the earth but you want to oppress the people on it.

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Gauche wrote:ProzacDeathWish

Gauche wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

   Ultimately I don't care about global warming nearly as much as I do in depopulating the Earth, that notion applies to any nation be they 1'st world or 3'rd world.  Something like China's birth control policy would be a fitting approach. 

It's nice to see you'll go on record in favor of global implementation of forced abortion, sterilization and state sponsored kidnapping. I don't imagine paradise could be far away if only we could have that imposed on everyone.

 I'm not aware of state sponsored kidnapping,....source ?  In spite of your obvious indignation toward me for not agreeing with you I still see uncontrolled population growth as detrimental on many levels.  I am not advocating some Logan's Run / Soylent Green scenario.  I would happily modify my policy of implementation and limit it to some sort of positive motivation such as a tax credit or other reward system. 

  If you think my preference for lowering the world population is baseless then invite three or four large families to move in with you.  Also, most of your new roommates are not old enough to be wage earners so they do not "earn their keep"; they are only consumers.  How long do you think that you and a few other adults could keep your head above water ?  Of course there are even other quality of life concerns that go along with that crowded scenario.  If that is your idea of "Paradise" then you can have it.

www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/misanthropy

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Gauche wrote:  Why isn't

Gauche wrote:

 


 

Why isn't industrialization a fitting approach?

  Industrialization=more people, more buildings, more shit.  Next question ?

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Gauche

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Gauche wrote:

 

 

 

Why isn't industrialization a fitting approach?

  Industrialization=more people, more buildings, more shit.  Next question ?

Birthrates throughout the industrialized world are below replacement level. People don't have more children in industrial societies they have less.

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You can talk about inviting

You can talk about inviting four families to live with me that's great great that's hyperbole. My question is in what fantasy world is everyone going to willingly sign up for your extinction agenda?

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Gauche wrote:   You see

Gauche wrote:

 

  You see you don't don't want to oppress the earth but you want to oppress the people on it.

   Industrialization doesn't sufficiently curtail the problem. We have surpassed 6.5 billion humans on the Earth.  Industrialization within a country can be offset by migration from other nations,  as is currently happening in Europe and the United States.   Besides industrialization just means that the breeders are wearing business suits instead of rags.

   As far as charging me with wanting to oppress people, despite your views, I consider being surrounded by millions and millions of human beings all competing for the same limited resources as extremely oppressive.  More is not better. The more humans that are walking around can actually serve to devalue them.  Life becomes cheap when anyone can be replaced within a matter of minutes simply because there are so many to replace you.   It's like a millionaire who drops a penny out of his pocket, does a penny really possess any relative value at that point ?

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Gauche wrote:. My question

Gauche wrote:

. My question is in what fantasy world is everyone going to willingly sign up for your extinction agenda?

   My concerns are not based upon a fantasy world but the real world.  Overpopulation is not something that only exists within a sci-fi novel.  By all means, pass out free fertility drugs to every adolescent female if that furthers your goals.

www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/misanthropy

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It's offset by migration

It's offset by migration from non-industrialized nations. Allow them to industrialize to the same levels and their birthrates will drop too. You want to oppress people you just don't know it yet. You don't want people to raise their living standards with industrialization but you still want to go in and prevent them from having more children and raise their standard of living slightly by having free labor pushing them into a sort of super-poverty.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Gauche

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Gauche wrote:

. My question is in what fantasy world is everyone going to willingly sign up for your extinction agenda?

   My concerns are not based upon a fantasy world but the real world.  Overpopulation is not something that only exists within a sci-fi novel.  By all means, pass out free fertility drugs to every adolescent female if that furthers your goals.

I didn't say there are no population problems. I asked a simple question. Will everyone go along willingly with your culling of the human race?

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
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Gauche wrote:It's offset by

Gauche wrote:

It's offset by migration from non-industrialized nations. Allow them to industrialize to the same levels and their birthrates will drop too. You want to oppress people you just don't know it yet. You don't want people to raise their living standards with industrialization but you still want to go in and prevent them from having more children and raise their standard of living slightly by having free labor pushing them into a sort of super-poverty.

  Okay Gauche, well you figured me out.  I really am evil incarnate.

www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/misanthropy

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Gauche wrote:I didn't say

Gauche wrote:


I didn't say there are no population problems. I asked a simple question. Will everyone go along willingly with your culling of the human race?

  How could I possibly know that ?  If you have some way of projecting an accurate estimate, I'm all ears.    How many people around the world willingly advocate that their governments should be a western style democracy ?  All of them ? 

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Gauche

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Gauche wrote:

It's offset by migration from non-industrialized nations. Allow them to industrialize to the same levels and their birthrates will drop too. You want to oppress people you just don't know it yet. You don't want people to raise their living standards with industrialization but you still want to go in and prevent them from having more children and raise their standard of living slightly by having free labor pushing them into a sort of super-poverty.

  Okay Gauche, well you figured me out.  I really am evil incarnate.

I'm not accusing you or anyone of being evil. I'm just asking why you can't try to improve the world in less oppressive ways that's all. People in the third world sometimes have lots of kids for good reasons. It's not just because they are stupid and like to fuck a lot. I'm merely suggesting that all the options be looked at and consider human dignity when attempting to ameliorate these important problems.

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Gauche

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Gauche wrote:

 

I didn't say there are no population problems. I asked a simple question. Will everyone go along willingly with your culling of the human race?

  How could I possibly know that ?  If you have some way of projecting an accurate estimate, I'm all ears.    How many people around the world willingly advocate that their governments should be a western style democracy ?  All of them ? 

Considering that some people have children when not only does there seem to be no reason but it's actually appears to be detrimental in many ways I think it's safe to assume that some people will not go along willingly. So it's necessarily authoritarian.

 

Industrialization on the other hand doesn't necessarily require western style democracy and if somebody doesn't like it nothing is stopping them from living in the damn woods.  

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Gauche wrote:I'm not

Gauche wrote:

I'm not accusing you or anyone of being evil. I'm just asking why you can't try to improve the world in less oppressive ways that's all. People in the third world sometimes have lots of kids for good reasons. It's not just because they are stupid and like to fuck a lot. I'm merely suggesting that all the options be looked at and consider human dignity when attempting to ameliorate these important problems.

  I know that you weren't actually accusing me of being evil incarnate.... 

  I said above that I was willing to modify my approach, right ?   I would be willing to entertain most any method that one could propose if that would ultimately result in a slowdown in human births. How about an educational process combined with a reward system ? Would you consider that too oppressive ?

   I have chosen to not reproduce, do you consider that an affront to human dignity ?

www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/misanthropy

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Gauche wrote:So it's

Gauche wrote:

So it's necessarily authoritarian.

 

  I have yet to discover any form of government, from the ancient past to the modern era, that at some point does not draw the line in relation to some behavior.  Go smoke a cigarette in a no smoking zone. Then claim that you rights as a smoker have been violated.  There are other examples of "authoritarian" government that I could cite but this is a message board and I'm not writing my doctoral thesis.

Gauche wrote:
  Industrialization on the other hand doesn't necessarily require western style democracy   

    You mean industrialized, like China ?   who by the way practices state enforced birth control.

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Gauche

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Gauche wrote:

I'm not accusing you or anyone of being evil. I'm just asking why you can't try to improve the world in less oppressive ways that's all. People in the third world sometimes have lots of kids for good reasons. It's not just because they are stupid and like to fuck a lot. I'm merely suggesting that all the options be looked at and consider human dignity when attempting to ameliorate these important problems.

  I know that you weren't actually accusing me of being evil incarnate.... 

  I said above that I was willing to modify my approach, right ?   I would be willing to entertain most any method that one could propose if that would ultimately result in a slowdown in human births. How about an educational process combined with a reward system ? Would you consider that too oppressive ?

   I have chosen to not reproduce, do you consider that an affront to human dignity ?

Choose whatever you want. It's my wish for you to have that choice, and I'd like for you to afford others the same privilege. But as fascinating as I find all of this I would like to ask you to please stay on topic.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
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Gauche wrote: But as

Gauche wrote:

 But as fascinating as I find all of this I would like to ask you to please stay on topic.

  No need.  This is becoming boring and repetitive, you have the last word, and hence the de facto victory.  I have been vanquished.

  Cheers.

www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/misanthropy

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Gauche

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Gauche wrote:

 But as fascinating as I find all of this I would like to ask you to please stay on topic.

  No need.  This is becoming boring and repetitive, you have the last word, and hence the de facto victory.  I have been vanquished.

  Cheers.

Hey, if you want to start a thread about China then do it and I'll post in it because I've been to China. They're making this conversion. People who live in the country have many children and people who live in cities don't anyway so it's a moot point.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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OK, if that side line is

OK, if that side line is done, may we get back to climate change?

 

Personally, I try my best to be a skeptic on the matter but I fail to see how one can assert that climate does not change on the scale of decades. It does and the data is there. What bugs me is the general hijacking of science to further a political agenda.

 

A good question to ask might be on whom should the blame be placed for whatever is going on. Honestly, the environment nazis want to place the blame squarely on the evil industrialists. However, there is an elephant in the room on that one.

 

Let me peel back to the late 70's to show what I mean. The recent massive increase in the price of oil, coupled with a coal miner's strike in England led to the undeniable fact that the industrialists were, at that point, on the fast track to converting the whole world to run on nuclear power. Need I point out that nuclear power has no carbon load?

 

Then we had the accident at Three Mile Island. As a result, 51 orders for nuclear reactors in the US alone were canceled and no new reactors have been ordered since. Not too long after that, the world had to deal with the much larger disaster at Chernobyl.

 

As it happens, both accidents could have been easily prevented. TMI was caused largely by violations of well established safety rules that never should have happened. Chernobyl was caused by errors on a much larger scale. Pretty much letting Benny Hill run the reactor would have been safer there.

 

Anyway, the greenpeace/environmental nonsense went into overdrive and the nuclear industry suffered a mighty penalty. Had the force of reason dominated after those accidents, we would have a much larger nuclear industry today and a much smaller national carbon footprint.

 

That is what the evil industrialists wanted to happen. The environment nazi basically forced them to remain on fossil fuel when they wanted different things to happen. Assembling the data this way, it is not too difficult to argue that the very people who are on about the environment today are the successors to the environment people who caused the situation to come about in the first place.

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:3

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

OK, if that side line is done, may we get back to climate change?

 

Personally, I try my best to be a skeptic on the matter but I fail to see how one can assert that climate does not change on the scale of decades. It does and the data is there. What bugs me is the general hijacking of science to further a political agenda.

 

A good question to ask might be on whom should the blame be placed for whatever is going on. Honestly, the environment nazis want to place the blame squarely on the evil industrialists. However, there is an elephant in the room on that one.

 

Let me peel back to the late 70's to show what I mean. The recent massive increase in the price of oil, coupled with a coal miner's strike in England led to the undeniable fact that the industrialists were, at that point, on the fast track to converting the whole world to run on nuclear power. Need I point out that nuclear power has no carbon load?

 

Then we had the accident at Three Mile Island. As a result, 51 orders for nuclear reactors in the US alone were canceled and no new reactors have been ordered since. Not too long after that, the world had to deal with the much larger disaster at Chernobyl.

 

As it happens, both accidents could have been easily prevented. TMI was caused largely by violations of well established safety rules that never should have happened. Chernobyl was caused by errors on a much larger scale. Pretty much letting Benny Hill run the reactor would have been safer there.

 

Anyway, the greenpeace/environmental nonsense went into overdrive and the nuclear industry suffered a mighty penalty. Had the force of reason dominated after those accidents, we would have a much larger nuclear industry today and a much smaller national carbon footprint.

 

That is what the evil industrialists wanted to happen. The environment nazi basically forced them to remain on fossil fuel when they wanted different things to happen. Assembling the data this way, it is not too difficult to argue that the very people who are on about the environment today are the successors to the environment people who caused the situation to come about in the first place.

 

http://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/2009/11/28/discovery-institute-the-mask-falls-away/

 

Teehee.

 

The Discovery Institute has been all over this hoax like a new Bible. Apparently, they think that it is true and it "proves global warming is false" and also "proves ID is right and Darwinism is wrong". Oh, and something about replacing all the scientists, with their own group of rejects because scientists are all corrupt.

 

Hilarious. Laughing out loud

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There are some things that

There are some things that conservatives are more likely to believe than liberals, and vice versa. If I said that polar bears are not dying out, I'd have half a dozen liberals in here asking me why I want to kill the poor polar bears even though there are more polar bears now than there ever were.

I'm a leftist but I don't buy these fake environmental crusades for one second because I read the books and literature that these fuckers put out and I know it hasn't a thing to do with the climate, or polar bears, and it definitely doesn't have anything to do with the welfare of human beings who come dead last in the hierarchy of consideration here and are seen on the whole as an environmental liability.

The Discovery institute and what they believe has nothing to do with Phil Jones writing that he will keep counter evidence out of official reports even if he has to redefine the peer-review process, and destroying information in freedom of information act requests.

The absurdity of that is so clear and obvious that other scientists including the IPCC's Eduardo Zorita have demanded that Jones and company be barred from the panel because "the scientific assessments in which they may take part are not credible anymore." and further stating "I feel myself entitled to read how some researchers tried to influence reviewers to scupper the publication of our work on the 'hockey stick graph' or to read how some IPCC authors tried to exclude this work from the IPCC Report on very dubious reasons." But I guess even the scientists you put your faith in can fall for a "hoax" huh?

http://coast.gkss.de/staff/zorita/myview.html

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 Two words: @

 Two words:

 

@ lolz.

 

...Gauche, this is just too awesome. Personally, I love this entire episode; it's been quite revealing. Not as far as the climate science is concerned, of course - that information has always been a matter of public record - but for those who have always espoused that they, "...don't promote a conspiracy theory!", and then immediately jump on the band wagon as soon as an anonymous hacker provides some e-mails and claims he has uncovered the 'conspiracy of the century'.

At least Gene was intelligent enough not to just chomp right down on the lure as a knee-jerk reaction. You, of course, lacked the brains to refrain.

 

Which e-mail, exactly, is the most damning piece of evidence for this conspiracy? All of the Fox News and Rush Limbaugh quoted e-mails have been examined and, frankly, the notion that they point to something sinister is laughable. Tree ring climate change anomalies are mistaken for real climate change anomalies; one scientist's skepticism is mistaken for the viewpoint of the entire scientific community; the word 'trick's use is mischaracterized; etc, etc, etc.

 

So, while this may be a smoking gun, you're the one holding it. You claim to read and know the science, yet you immediately abandon it upon hearing an anchor quote-mine statements from a pile of e-mails. You claim that it's suddenly all, "just a hoax," that the scientific community so easily fell for, yet you're the one who has thrown your hat into the ring with a pile of data you have not even read and have no means of verifying was unaltered.

You're liar, a sheister and an idiot, you probably wouldn't know science if you caught it sleeping with your wife, and most spectacularly of all, you are so vehemently opposed to the scientific process as applied to one pet issue that you're just gnashing at the bit waiting for one phantasm to come by that will confirm your own prejudices and expose you for what you are.

 

Well done, sir.


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Kevin reduce the population

Kevin reduce the population by 80% Brown. I didn't think you'd have the nerve to show your face around here. The absurdity of people who believe in the apocalyptic destruction of earth and espouse no less than the destruction of all its industrial societies and 8 out of 10 of its inhabitants calling people who are skeptical of their insane and completely made up predictions "idiots" is farcical.

Even if we didn't know that these characters were deleting data in FOIA requests, having people ousted, and manipulating the peer-review process they would still be predicting the end of the world which is completely stupid.

But you made a lot of accusations and I think they should be taken seriously. When did I claim to understand climate science (other than the fact that people like you would pay absolutely no attention to it at all unless they predicted catastrophe)? When did I claim it's suddenly all "just a hoax"? What did I lie about?

I posted information for people to read and make up their own minds. Maybe you're just angry that the majority of people don't believe in your fables about planetary destruction anymore.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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 Quote:Kevin reduce the

 

Quote:
Kevin reduce the population by 80% Brown. I didn't think you'd have the nerve to show your face around here. The absurdity of people who believe in the apocalyptic destruction of earth and espouse no less than the destruction of all its industrial societies and 8 out of 10 of its inhabitants calling people who are skeptical of their insane and completely made up predictions "idiots" is farcical. 

I'm loving it.

Of course, much like the anchors of Fox, you neglect to mention that when someone like myself refers to the reduction of the population, we're talking about refraining from positive growth reproduction. You're also happy to simply put words in my mouth so you can obliterate strawmen; it's never been my position that industrialized civilization has to collapse. In fact, if you'd actually been paying attention during my arguments, you'd have read that I specifically wished for industrialized civilization to continue, and that this cannot happen if we continue to balloon the population. Earth simply doesn't have the resources available to deal with that many of us.

Quote:
 Even if we didn't know that these characters were deleting data in FOIA requests, having people ousted, and manipulating the peer-review process they would still be predicting the end of the world which is completely stupid.

Slow down there, sparky. Who, specifically, is deleting data in FOIA requests? When did he or she do this? Where is the evidence of this happening?

Who, specifically, was terminated from their position? When? For what cause? Where is the evidence of this happening?

Who, specifically, is manipulating the peer-review process? When did they do this? With what article(s)? Where is the evidence of this happening?

Quote:
But you made a lot of accusations and I think they should be taken seriously. When did I claim to understand climate science (other than the fact that people like you would pay absolutely no attention to it at all unless they predicted catastrophe)? When did I claim it's suddenly all "just a hoax"? What did I lie about?

Exactly one paragraph ago is when you cited that it was a hoax (all that talk about fraud committed within the peer-review process, people getting axe'd, FOIAs being doctored, etc). Perhaps you never did pretend to understand the science - but if you don't, then you shouldn't be beaking-off abut a subject you're ignorant of.  

Quote:
I posted information for people to read and make up their own minds. Maybe you're just angry that the majority of people don't believe in your fables about planetary destruction anymore.

My ass you did.

You posted the link to the torrent, then started arrogantly touting that the e-mails vindicated your position; that all of us 'enviro-nazis' where either dupes or fraudsters out to stop people from getting rich. You also went ahead and lied a whole bunch.

Quote:
 If I said that polar bears are not dying out, I'd have half a dozen liberals in here asking me why I want to kill the poor polar bears even though there are more polar bears now than there ever were.

 

Quote:
I'm a leftist but I don't buy these fake environmental crusades for one second because I read the books and literature that these fuckers put out and I know it hasn't a thing to do with the climate, or polar bears, and it definitely doesn't have anything to do with the welfare of human beings who come dead last in the hierarchy of consideration here and are seen on the whole as an environmental liability. 

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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I'm curious what the

I'm curious what the geologists have to say.  Discovery told me two weeks ago that, regardless of the effects of human waste, we're set to enter another ice age within a few thousand years. 

 

But the way I see it, it's obvious that waste will have SOME effect.  (It is political agendas that have blown this over the top or claimed it a hoax)  Look at the time of the dinosaurs.  Shitload of CO2 in the atmosphere, higher global temperatures, more lush vegetation, and of course large animals.  I think I speak for all of us when I say that we don't want to cause future humans to be subjected to raptor attacks.  That would be horrible.

 


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Quote:I'm loving it.Of

Quote:
I'm loving it.

Of course, much like the anchors of Fox, you neglect to mention that when someone like myself refers to the reduction of the population, we're talking about refraining from positive growth reproduction. You're also happy to simply put words in my mouth so you can obliterate strawmen; it's never been my position that industrialized civilization has to collapse. In fact, if you'd actually been paying attention during my arguments, you'd have read that I specifically wished for industrialized civilization to continue, and that this cannot happen if we continue to balloon the population. Earth simply doesn't have the resources available to deal with that many of us.


Yeah, I'm sure in Kevin Brown's world everyone will be sterilized at birth and walk around in togas with cold fusion running everything. You're a low-level dreamer. Maybe the anchors at Fox have read The First Global Revolution which says:

Quote:
It appears that we may have to prepare for a critical situation to arise a few decade ahead, when we are compelled by the dangers of earth-warming to drastically reduce our use of fossil fuels and have no alternative sources of energy in sight.


So, had you been paying attention when the environmentalists who make policy were publishing their books, and creating and implementing policies instead of worshiping gaia or whatever it is that you do then you'd know the priests of your enviro-cult write about cutting off access to resources used to run industrial society before people have a chance to develop anything else.

Quote:
Slow down there, sparky. Who, specifically, is deleting data in FOIA requests? When did he or she do this? Where is the evidence of this happening?

Who, specifically, was terminated from their position? When? For what cause? Where is the evidence of this happening?

Who, specifically, is manipulating the peer-review process? When did they do this? With what article(s)? Where is the evidence of this happening?

Exactly one paragraph ago is when you cited that it was a hoax (all that talk about fraud committed within the peer-review process, people getting axe'd, FOIAs being doctored, etc). Perhaps you never did pretend to understand the science - but if you don't, then you shouldn't be beaking-off abut a subject you're ignorant of. 


This is why Cpt_Pineapple made you look stupid so many times, which I'm assuming is the reason you left. It's hypothetical you Canadian high school dropout. I said what the people have claimed in their emails, what they've been accused of and what they're being investigated for, then (here's the hypothetical part) even if we didn't know we'd still know they're predicting the end of the world which is stupid.

In fact the only time I used the word "fraud" was when I said this:

I wrote:
I don't believe that the scientific theory of anthropogenic global warming would be derailed even by clear evidence of obvious fraud (which I don't think this constitutes anyway)


What the people have actually done believe it or not is a matter for investigators, not the court of public opinion of a bunch of tree-hugging misanthropes.

Quote:
My ass you did.

You posted the link to the torrent, then started arrogantly touting that the e-mails vindicated your position; that all of us 'enviro-nazis' where either dupes or fraudsters out to stop people from getting rich. You also went ahead and lied a whole bunch.


Those are your examples of my lies, that environmental crusades are fake, that I read books about environmentalism and that there are more polar bears?

Of course anyone can do a google search and find out that there are more polar bears. Or just look at polarbearsinternational.org which is an organization dedicated to saving the polar bears that admits when they talk about decline in polar bear populations they're talking about sub-populations not the total number of bears and that it is an estimate of what might occur.

Your other accusations are pretty bizarre considering you've never been to my apartment or looked at my bookshelf. However, had you actually read the resolutique or even earth in the balance you'd know that environmental crusades are in a sense fake because the policy making environmentalist (not the low-level dreamers such as yourself) write that their major concern is shifting the collective value systems of humanity such that humans may be viewed on the whole as an environmental liability and in their words an "enemy".
 

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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 So, hold-up, Mr.

 So, hold-up, Mr. Frankenfood:

 

You can't name any particular individual who has committed fraud, and in fact have no evidence of fraud at all. Is that correct?

 

Quote:
Warnings about the future of the polar bear are often contrasted with the fact that worldwide population estimates have increased over the past 50 years and are relatively stable today.[104][120] Some estimates of the global population are around 5,000–10,000 in the early 1970s;[121]other estimates were 20,000–40,000 during the 1980s.[26][38] Current estimates put the global population at between 20,000 and 25,000.[7]

Source: Wikipedia article on Polar Bears.

 

So... 25,000 is more than 40,000? 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Quote:So, hold-up, Mr.

Quote:
So, hold-up, Mr. Frankenfood:

 

You can't name any particular individual who has committed fraud, and in fact have no evidence of fraud at all. Is that correct?

No, but since I didn't actually say that someone committed fraud it probably doesn't matter.

Quote:
Source: Wikipedia article on Polar Bears.

 

So... 25,000 is more than 40,000?

This is another reason I don't like environmentalists, you try to use estimates and predictions as if they are verified facts. It's an estimate, that doesn't mean there were actually 40,000 polar bears at some time. For all you know there could have been 20,000 which is the same estimated today if not less. Even if the minimum 1980's estimate was 25,000 I could still say that there are more polar bears because the minimum estimate could have been the actual number.

I consider this polar bear issue to be concluded. Furthermore, I consider it rude to come in here meretriciously hurling accusations and German insults not even addressing the topic. I don't care if you attack me personally but at least comment about the hacking of the CRU databases while you do it.

 

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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 Quote:This is another

 

Quote:
This is another reason I don't like environmentalists, you try to use estimates and predictions as if they are verified facts.

...Who, again, was the person who originally started making claims about how many polar bears there are today vs how many there have ever been in the past? 

Sure wasn't me.

 

So, you it's alright for you to just make shit up, but estimates derived by experts in the field are just rubbish, right?

 

That's kind of an interesting admission, though. I mean, all practical science is based on best estimates - so is all science just garbage in your mind? 

 

Quote:
 I don't care if you attack me personally but at least comment about the hacking of the CRU databases while you do it.

Sure.

 

Hacking the CRU database was a criminal act and a waste of time. I hope the motherfucker who did it serves time in prison. 

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

 

...Who, again, was the person who originally started making claims about how many polar bears there are today vs how many there have ever been in the past? 

Sure wasn't me.

 

So, you it's alright for you to just make shit up, but estimates derived by experts in the field are just rubbish, right?

 

That's kind of an interesting admission, though. I mean, all practical science is based on best estimates - so is all science just garbage in your mind? 

 

I still don't think you understand what an estimate is. Here is an excerpt from the book that 20,000-40,000 number was taken from:

Quote:
Although we have estimates of the sizes of several subpopulations, we are far from having an initial assessment of all areas. Even in some areas where research has been conducted, the estimates of population size can only be called educated guesses

Polar bears By Ian Stirling page 77.

To give such a vague estimate, where the maximum is twice the minimum is illustrative of how difficult it is to accurately represent the true number. But to use such an estimate as you've done, throwing out the low end and presenting the high end as if it was the true number when the estimates of 30 years ago and the more accurate estimates of today overlap is idiotic and buffoonish even for you.


Quote:
Sure.

 

Hacking the CRU database was a criminal act and a waste of time. I hope the motherfucker who did it serves time in prison. 

 

The people were probably whistleblowers who didn't want to be implicated or investigated themselves.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
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I think that is interpreted

I think that is interpreted and taken out of context of a political agenda. Things are pointing hand and waving to say things like 'use this data internally, but do not let go in the wrong hands,' and noting that not all the image so it could be used as a political tool. Basically, e-mails to prevent what we are doing now happen.