Help an atheist with argument: conditions for life on Earth are perfect/must be god

Sapient
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Help an atheist with argument: conditions for life on Earth are perfect/must be god

I just received a note on facebook but am too busy to find the threads on this site that deal with the issue, or to type a response out at length, not to mention the fact that I find the argument to be worthy of nothing more than a sentence answer.  I thought though that I should post it here, and maybe some of you could help with the leg work, I'm linking the person who asked me.

 

Here's the letter:

Quote:

Hi Brian,

Am currently engaged in a debate in Facebook. Someone has posted this to show the proof why God exist. Perhaps, you can help me answer this:

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day....

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.

 

MY RESPONSE:

I'm very busy today with logistics work and have no time for debate, I can post this on my site so you can see the many responses however this argument is extremely easy I'm surprised you need my help.

1. Ask them where the argument for God is?
2. If the conditions for life weren't perfect for life then we wouldn't be here to discuss it. Ask him who is currently on the planet Jupiter arguing that because the conditions for life here on Jupiter are so poor and life can't exist, then there must not be a god.

It's funny how fancy Christians make their arguments look to distract you from the fact that they have nothing. So many sexy frills in that argument yet absolutely nothing that even starts to prove that there is an invisible man in the sky. 

I'll link you after I posted the comments on my site.

 

 

(p.s. someone google some of that text to see where he stole it from, he probably did.  Then ask if that was very Christian of him.)

 


Sapient
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 Here's more context folks,

 Here's more context folks, from his response:

Quote:
Thanks Brian. I am trying my best to find the best way to educate these people. They are a younger generation in their early to mid 20's. I have one chance and I don't wanna blow it by saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. Thus, I seeked a much more experience person in debating than me. Thanks bro.

 

 

- Brian Sapient


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Sapient
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Sapient wrote:(p.s. someone

Sapient wrote:

(p.s. someone google some of that text to see where he stole it from, he probably did.  Then ask if that was very Christian of him.)

FROM ATHEIST IN DEBATE: "Hey, thanks again Brian. I did google some of the text in that post, and it seems that it's all over the place, especially in Christian sites. It must quite popular and might be their strongest argument, and yet it remains really pathetic..."

- Brian Sapient


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Earth, and the Universe, are

Earth, and the Universe, are not remotely 'Perfect' for anything. That is a naive concept.

It lies within an admittedly narrow range of attributes which allow the emergence and evolution of Life. Once evolution started, life naturally evolved to fit the conditions on earth, not perfectly, but enough to survive and reproduce.

There are an enormous number of substances that are liquid within some range, some with even more 'unusual' or potentially 'useful' properties than water.

There are probably at least 10's of trillions of planets in the Universe, with conditions covering an enormous range. The idea than none of these could possibly be suitable for life without purposeful outside intervention is the truly bizarre one. It would be like throwing a dice a million times and not expecting at least one 6.

There is more, but that will do for now.

 

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If God made the earth for

If God made the earth for humans, why is so much of it trying to kill us?

Natural disasters of all kinds, roughly 75% of the planet is covered in a substance we can't drink without processing. (seawater), 10% of the land we do have is arable (capable of growing crops)

I could go on but I think I've shared enough of God's bounty here.

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This argument is so common,

This argument is so common, so lame, and so annoying, that I've condensed a logical counter-argument into my signature below. Your response to the debate could simply be an expanded version of my argument.

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There are so many

There are so many interesting rebuttals to this argument (which speaks to the argument's weakness).

  1. Law of large numbers: If it can happen, given enough opportunity, it will happen.
  2. Parsimony: All of this is satisfactorily explained without a god-thing.
  3. Inverted thinking/Circular reasoning: It didn't come about for us, we came about adapting to it. (It only proves god if we presume humanity was a goal, which needs a god to have the goal. Oh no! Circular dizzy!)
  4. Reductio ad absurdum: So, god made kitchens for cockroaches, then?
  5. Philosophical/Psychological: If god is about faith, why are you so interested in proof?

 

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Considering just the number

Considering just the number of planets in our galaxy, probability dictates that there are countless planets that can sustain life. Obviously, life would exist on planets with conditions that are suitable. His logic is backwards.

Edit: The puddle on the sidewalk says, "Ah, look at this hole in the sidewalk. It was designed just for me."

The AIDS virus says, "Ah, look at this human. It was designed just for me, so that I could spread and reproduce."

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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My wife has never seen

My wife has never seen Cosmos before. We just watched the second episode, and as Sagan points out, the universe is filled with organic molecules. Life arose on our planet very soon after it condensed, indicating that life is almost inevitable. Any planet that can support life most likely will support life.

The questions of earth's suitability for life is specious. Of the billions of likely planets, some are going to be very ideal. As life will most likely start on an ideal planet, it's no coincidence that intelligent life that develops on an ideal planet will wonder, "Isn't this ideal planet just perfect for us?" In fact, we are more likely to find ourselves on a "perfect" planet than on a planet that wasn't "perfect."

I would be more impressed if we had developed on a planet that was essentially inimical to life.

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Some fun, noone dealt with

Some fun, noone dealt with the specifics. This was one of the earliest theist arguments I refuted.

"The Earth...its size is perfect."

In fact, it isn't "perfect". Venus is smaller, and has an atmosphere. Mars is alot smaller, and it used to have one. We're not certain why it doesn't anymore.
Earth also has plenty of hydrogen, in case you never noticed her oceans.
The Earth would have to be MUCH more massive than it is to become a gas giant like Jupiter or Neptune.
So the size is largely irrelevant.

"Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life."

Fallacy. The Earth has the atmosphere it does BECAUSE of life. It is not the other way around. The oxygen available was miniscule until plants started to exhale it.

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"The Earth is located the

"The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up."

False. The Earth is currently in the "Habitable Zone"(HZ) of Sol. This zone is the region around a star within which a planet can have liquid water on the surface (a necessary precondition for life on Earth as observed). For Sol, this region is widely accepted to strech from approximately 0.725 astronomical units away from Sol to 3.0 astronomical unitsaway from Sol. An astronomical unit is the distance between Earth and Sol. Which is about 150 billion kilometres. So in other words, we could be either 27.5% closer to Sol, or 300% further away, and life on Earth would still be supported. Here's a picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Habitable_zone-e

"The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph"

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This is false. No orbit is

This is false. No orbit is perfectly circular. In fact, during winter in North America, the Earth is at its closest to the sun. During the summer, it is at its furthest away.

"And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull."

Disregards the fact that the moon is getting further away every year, and always has. Eventually it will fly away. If it were perfect, it would have a perfect orbit.

"while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees."

No body temperature is a steady anything. They fluctuate wildly depending on a wide variety of factors. Though most of the rest of your description of water was accurate enough. Except...

"Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter."

Uh, no. Water freezes according to the heat it loses. Heat rises, so the surface of water will be the first to freeze unless the cooling is being delivered to a location other than the surface.

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"Ninety-seven percent of the

"Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water."

It's called weather. Every planet with an atmosphere has it. Even Mars has it, and it doesn't have an atmosphere.

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Sapient wrote: It's funny

Sapient wrote:
 It's funny how fancy Christians make their arguments look to distract you from the fact that they have nothing. So many sexy frills in that argument yet absolutely nothing that even starts to prove that there is an invisible man in the sky.  

In recent years, I've been toying with the idea that the existence of Christian apologetics argues against the existence of God.  The Bible seems to describe a God whose existence is self-evident.  

...need I go on?

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Quote:Water freezes from the

Quote:
Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

What you mean is that solid H2O, ice, floats on top of liquid H2O, liquid water. This is because ice is less dense than water. Btw, why wouldn't fish be able to live in water if the ice sank to the bottom?  

Vastet wrote:
Uh, no. Water freezes according to the heat it loses. Heat rises, so the surface of water will be the first to freeze unless the cooling is being delivered to a location other than the surface.

Um, if you explain it that way, wouldn't the deepest water freeze first?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Where's the heat loss

Where's the heat loss sufficient to form ice at the bottom? Only the surface generally can lose that much heat.
Still, you're right, I should have simplified or expanded the explanation.

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Vastet wrote:Where's the

Vastet wrote:
Where's the heat loss sufficient to form ice at the bottom? Only the surface generally can lose that much heat. Still, you're right, I should have simplified or expanded the explanation.

Yes, yes, you're right. I guess I'm being pedant. 

It's because the water molecules need to lose more energy when they reach 0 degrees Celsius to freeze. The water at the surface loses energy to the air, so it freezes first.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Help an atheist with argument: conditions for life on Earth are

 


Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:
 

Question:-
The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
 

Answer:-

 

The size of earth has changed since the time it first appeared as a recognizable though slightly flattened sphere.

An impact from a body approximately the size of mars resulted in then two spheres, one of which is the moon. (material identical to the earths upper mantle also forms the moon)

Continuous bombardment by solar debris increased the size of the Earth (by approx 20%), until it reached its present size.

The earth has been through several atmospheres, and in the early stages of development the elements making up the atmosphere have varied greatly. (Carbon Dioxide, Methane, Nitrogen, water vapour ) Oxygen did not appear in great abundance until some 3.5 Billion years ago, previously the dominant gas was nitrogen.
Most of the methane is now at the bottom of the oceans, along with vast quantities of carbon dioxide.

 

Question:-
The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day....
 

 

Answer:-

 

 

The range of distances of which a planet with an atmosphere can support life is still under investigation. But it is very apparent that life can be supported in the most extreme and harsh conditions. The Atlantic ridge vents and other places on the oceanic floor have revealed complex life forms can exist. We are sendng a probe to Enceladus (Saturn) to see if there are microbial life there

There is no fixed distance, but a min and max range of distances which exist extending from Venus to Mars between which it is thought our form of life can exist.

All Planets in the Solar system rotate.

Life can exist at various temperatures and pressures.

The earth will eventually be engulfed when the sun moves off the main sequence an into “Red Giant” phase.

 

Question:-
And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

 

 

Answer:-

 

The moon is moving away from the Earth and has been since it and the earth were formed . It is doubtful that the temperature difference caused by plate tectonics would allow the Oceans to stagnate. Convection currents even during the period when the continents were a single mass still existed and today they are an ongoing process, independent of the moons influence.

Question:-
Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:
 

 

Answer:-

 

I totally agree water is essential to life, but it is only part of an array of elements needed

Nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium, sulfur, boron, chlorine, iron, manganese, zinc, copper, molybdenum, and nickel, Silicon, sodium, cobalt, and selenium and Hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon

 

Question:-
It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.
 

 

Answer:-

 

It is true water does allow us to regulate our internal body temperature, a good example of this is Eskimos live above the Arctic circle, whilst the Iranians and Africans can live in Temperature as high as 135 Fahrenheit
See comment on Atlantic ridge vents life forms in “life extreme conditions”

The boiling point of water depends on mainly its pressure, and does not boil at same temperature (100 Centigrade ) everywhere.

 

PV/T =constant (1) ALL liquids/Gases observe this law..

 

 

 

Question:-

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

 

 

 

Answer:-

Chemically it mostly appears neutral, but in reality its a covalent bond (polar), negative and positive at each end,  it does have problems with equally covalent type molecules when trying to filter below 15 angstroms

as for permittivity yes it is very good at providing a transport across or through membranes or blood vessels, but thats because  of viscosity and other liquids such as alcohol are better transports

 

Question:-

 

 

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.
 

 

Answer:-

 

Trees irrigate themselves, by capillary action and by evaporating water through its leaves, it has nothing to do with surface tension

All liquids possess surface tension, not just water


Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
 

 

Answer:-

 

Water freezes at the top because air is a better cooler than Water, and thus is colder at the interface.

Acts as an insulator for the water below it and simply ice is less dense and always floats to the surface

 

Question:-

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.

 

 

Answer:-

 

correct

The evaporation of water from the seas does leave the salt and other material behind, however this system is not infallible,

and sometimes chemicals from burning end up in the rain (acid rain)

 

I could be more detailed , but may I suggest when the sender encounters a Theist he walks away, they are not very bright people and will never be convinced.

see Sam Harris on changing the mind of a theist....

 

 

 

 


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What a joke. Nearly 100% of

What a joke.

 

Nearly 100% of the universe is instantly fatal to human beings. Go into outer space? Dead. Go to any planet in the solar system other than Earth? Dead. Go to the sun? Dead.

Even when it comes to the Earth itself, just about everything seems poised to rip your life out of your hands. Fall from too great a height? Dead. Get struck by an object going very fast? Dead. Get stuck under an object that is very heavy? Dead. Go under the water for a long period of time? Dead. Go very high into the atmosphere? Dead. 

 

It would be much better for the Christian to try and argue that the universe has been 'designed' to shepherd us into the afterlife as efficiently as possible. Sticking out tongue

 

Moreover, even if the Earth were a safe little island, the sun's luminosity is going to increase as it expends it's hydrogen fuel - in about 5 billion years the luminosity will be so great that it'll render the Earth a lifeless husk. After that, the Earth will likely be swallowed by the Sun once it goes into it's Red Giant cycle.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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Right on the Edge

Why would god make life on Earth skate on the very edge of existence?  A little too much of this, not enough of that, and we're dead. 


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This arguement has been

This arguement has been debunked many ways, but often with creationists you have to go with the easiest explaination for them to understand. Just because the bolt fits in the hole doesn't mean the hole was made for the bolt.

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Too, Too Silly

If we exist by simple chance and die in a mere few decades never to be known again, why bother arguing against the idea of a creator? If he isn't, and we are the product of happenstance alone, there is no value in any argument (or subsequent hand-holding within the atheist community) against a creator. There is also, subsequently, no value in life. To do 'good' or 'evil' toward another person means nothing as each of us fade into the nothingness we came from. No eternal life, no eternal value. Kill me or feed me. Who cares?

If the atheist community had half the courage they claim to they might be willing to explore alternative forms of faith (this is to say that a belief in life as cosmic chance is as much a pursuit of faith as any organized religion is) and might, in so doing, discover a value within their daily breathings that lasts for more than eighty odd years.


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WhoCaresAnyway wrote:

If we exist by simple chance and die in a mere few decades never to be known again, why bother arguing against the idea of a creator? If he isn't, and we are the product of happenstance alone, there is no value in any argument (or subsequent hand-holding within the atheist community) against a creator. There is also, subsequently, no value in life. To do 'good' or 'evil' toward another person means nothing as each of us fade into the nothingness we came from. No eternal life, no eternal value. Kill me or feed me. Who cares?

 

 

                You have a morbid way of looking at life and reality.  We do care, care enough  NOT to base our lives on a fairy tale.

 

 

 

If the atheist community had half the courage they claim to they might be willing to explore alternative forms of faith (this is to say that a belief in life as cosmic chance is as much a pursuit of faith as any organized religion is) and might, in so doing, discover a value within their daily breathings that lasts for more than eighty odd years.

 

 

 

                        The beauty of being an atheist is that we DO NOT have to go seeking an alternative "Faith".  We like the real  world where no 'faith' or pretense  to fairy tales leads usinto woo woo. Reality is beautiful, give it a try.

 

 

 

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IF conditions on earth were perfect for life THEN

One would have to define perfect some place along the way.

But if perfect then weather would not kill life. No tornadoes, hurricane, killing lightning. These are not to be explained away as exceptions. They require a different word than perfect. Once one starts describing a far from perfect condition for life -- and do NOT stop objecting to any proposed definition until it matches the earth -- it becomes obvious the argument is specious.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Hi guys,The other day I was

Hi guys,

The other day I was finding some information to share with my first graders on how perfectly the world was made.  I found this same article.  I later posted it to facebook because I thought it was interesting.  As I was looking for more information I found your page from a few years ago.

You are right.  We have no stand out proof for God in this text.  I believe the original writer was reaching out to those who have a desire to believe in a higher power.  For those of us who do believe, information like this tells us that there is a perfect plan for all creation, that He designed the earth for our needs, and that He makes sure things stay in tact so that we may continue to survive.  I do understand how this lacks evidence for anyone who doesn't believe in God.

I'm guessing the guy who posted this wasn't trying to steal the text but that he didn't write down where he got it from.  Outside of writing a paper I rarely think to share my source of information.  I think I assume people will know I have received the information through reading or hearing about it.

I know in discussions around this subject conversations tend to get heated.  I hope that if you read this you hear no "heat" in my voice.  I hope to never be that person. 

Have a good weekend.

 


harleysportster
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cab wrote:You are right. 

cab wrote:

You are right.  We have no stand out proof for God in this text.  I believe the original writer was reaching out to those who have a desire to believe in a higher power.  For those of us who do believe, information like this tells us that there is a perfect plan for all creation, that He designed the earth for our needs, and that He makes sure things stay in tact so that we may continue to survive.  I do understand how this lacks evidence for anyone who doesn't believe in God.

I'm guessing the guy who posted this wasn't trying to steal the text but that he didn't write down where he got it from.  Outside of writing a paper I rarely think to share my source of information.  I think I assume people will know I have received the information through reading or hearing about it.

I think the original intent was to prove that we are not creatures of some omni-benevolent force that shaped life in the universe just for us.

The universe that we have discovered so far is cold, dead, empty and hostile to human life.

This planet is pretty much, hostile to human life as well.

The fact that it took this planet millions of years of species going extinct, short life spans for the first humans, thousands of years of deprivation, abhorrent conditions and tribalistic murder and conquering for even a hint of a semi-modern society to emerge, along with the fact that much of the Earth today still contains whole nations that are in horrifying conditions, seems to hint at the fact that if something designed all of this, it certainly could not have had our best interests at heart nor cared about us.

But, it more likely hints that nothing designed any of this.

I am just a part of a series of DNA replications that are here as a result of a few thousand years of tribal conquering, disease, superstition and numerous other things. The fact that the human race has persevered through all of this just proves that it has been able to adopt and survive throughout. But, that is not to say that we will are going to survive into the far future or even the near future.

How many more wars, overpopulation, famines, plagues and unneccessary suffering is it going to take before people realize that we are on our own and there is nothing watching over us ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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I got to the point of "the

I got to the point of "the earth is the perfect size", and that was enough for me.

The perspective this person arguing is lacking is as simple as input vs output. From a manufacturing standpoint, no sane capitalist would build a factory building anything and want low output. Earth is one planet in the universe. Most of the "space" is hostile to life so the fact that we exist can only be a testimony to ineptness if one is postulating a perfect manufacturer.

If this fictional god in real life had to explain all the waste in his production to Donnald Trump what do you think Trump would say to such lousy output? You're fired!

It is mentaly confusing rarity of a given outcome as being divine when in reality it is nothing but the laws of physics resulting in randomness, conditions and luck. We got lucky, and there is no magical super hero needed to explain that.

There were millions of more sperm, when my parents had sex, that died and went nowhere, when what became me was born out of those competing sprm. Were those sperm divinely protected by a magical man?  The planet like my existence, was merely an outcome of nature, not a cognition.

The unfortunate default to the divine being the cause is a result of human narcissism. It is sexier a thought to think we are special, than to accept the crap shoot reality is. It results from sample rate errors and selection bias and down right ignorance.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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I don't like the term 'luck'

I don't like the term 'luck' in evolution. There was very little luck, and a whole lot of vicious struggle between countless species in the midst of exceptional disasters.
Saying we got lucky cheapens the lives of trillions of trillions of trillions of life forms, without who's struggles to survive we would not be here.

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Vastet wrote:I don't like

Vastet wrote:
I don't like the term 'luck' in evolution. There was very little luck, and a whole lot of vicious struggle between countless species in the midst of exceptional disasters. Saying we got lucky cheapens the lives of trillions of trillions of trillions of life forms, without who's struggles to survive we would not be here.

 

It is not "luck" in the context that if a particular atom meets up with another atom  we can deetermine the reaction between the two, we can. Otherwise my x wife would not have a PHD in bological chemistry.

It is NOT luck in the sense we cannot measure anything, we can. But we cannot determine the exact number of raindrops in a hurricane or where those individual raindrops will land.

It is not our species that got lucky it is anthing that lives on this planet that we compete with that did.

Of course it is not all luck, but nature is not divine or caused by a cognition. I strictly talk of luck in terms of both nature and law and probibility. We are here because of deterministic natural law. But we are not here becasue if a desired magcial majority. In that sense we got lucky.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Vastet
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I dunno. If there really was

I dunno. If there really was a god, things might be different. It'd be nice to think that if we ever create an intelligent species that we wouldn't burden it with all sorts of bs like the more popular fake gods have supposedly done. And I'd like to think we'd actually talk to them too. Imagine how advanced civilisation could be if there really was a super advanced being(s) looking out for us, or how much we could help new intelligence to do what wasn't done for us..

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Vastet wrote:I dunno. If

Vastet wrote:
I dunno. If there really was a god, things might be different. It'd be nice to think that if we ever create an intelligent species that we wouldn't burden it with all sorts of bs like the more popular fake gods have supposedly done. And I'd like to think we'd actually talk to them too. Imagine how advanced civilisation could be if there really was a super advanced being(s) looking out for us, or how much we could help new intelligence to do what wasn't done for us..

Your scaring me Vaset(. LOL My intelligent being would be an "I Cumbot". One for the guys and one for the ladies.

 

But in all seriousness the god concept in all of history both scientifically and morally really is nothing more than anthropomorphic selfish reflection of our own narcissism. I wouldn't want a god to be real based on those atributes.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Vastet
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If there really was a god,

If there really was a god, it is unlikely that it'd be anything like the description of primitive savages. Eye-wink

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.