In your opinion, what positions, in my worldview, could I hold then? Nothing? 

It's not enough to satisfy someone like yourself, but it's sufficient for all practical purposes. 

Aw, come on man, I told you in my second post. Nobody on this forum is trying to hide these things (or at least, I hope not); we just don't feel the need to put a disclaimer every time we make a claim. And, even if we assume that the average atheist understands their position better than the average theist, they're really not going to explain these things very well.  

These philosophical problems seem to be of the utmost importance when we're discussing them, but it's going to make very little difference in how we act in real life, outside of specific situations that are explicitly relevant to our worldviews. I mean, I can't be 100% certain that I'm not going to spontaneously combust while I'm brushing my teeth, but, heck, I'm going to be "courageous" and brush my teeth anyways. 

Thank you. God bless you too........er, have a nice day. 

You seem like a nice guy. We'd probably be friends if we met in real life, until one day, you found out I was an atheist, and I found out you thought the Bible was infallible. Then, we'd argue for five hours without making any headway, and get so pissed at each other that we never talk to each other ever again.

Logic is based on the Law of Identity, that A = A, and the Law of non-contradiction, that A and (not A) are mutually exclusive, expressed as A ~= ~A

The first follows from the observation that we can identify discrete entities or objects, the second that we can resolve existence into that which is part of at least one thing, and the rest which is not included in that entity, and they do not overlap.

A reality where this was not at least apparently the case, would be an endless uniform featureless fog.

Since this is not what most of us perceive, we can go on to deduce the implications of these primary propositions, which is what constitutes Logic.

See anything circular there?

NO system of thought can be proven from within the system, and that includes whatever substitutes for logic in any world-view which denies the authority of logic and reason.

Are you talking about people who were murdered ? So people who were murdered for other reasons, not so important ? Or just as important but in another way ?

Oh, you'd be surprised.

That's what my muslim friends say about islam. You guys having a contest ?

To bear in mind that inside our heads we have a huge organ we barely understand that consumes 25 per cent of all the calories we eat. Our neurological science is still at the toddling stage.

To tack things like art appreciation to an invisible soul is right out there from my perspective.

Like the quashing of the flat earth theory with the development of astronomy, the nature of self will one day be explained by the chemical and physiological processes that take place in the human brain.

Of course, between now and then, there will be a period in which the godly can make outrageous and unprovable statements about things that don't obviously exist in order to bolster their view of the world.

I suggest they make hay while the sun shines.

Conor,

Thank you again for your reply. I promise not to capitalize on your past faith experience. I will admit that I believe the Roman Catholic Church as well as the LDS church preach false gospels and the Jesus preached by the LDS church is not the Jesus I believe in.  

Our comments have grown to such a length that it’s actually not convenient to quote you… please refer back to your post!

1.) We need to be honest here. You approach everything that you try to understand from your presupposition that God does not exist. This drastically shapes the way you manage and interpret evidence. I approach all things from the presupposition that the triune God of scripture exists and is the basis of all discernable truth. This also drastically shapes the way I manage and interpret evidence.

That being said, my appeal to scripture to define my terms is as valid as your appeal to logic and reason as we are both appealing to our ultimate authorities. The Bible defines the soul as existing in a way that transcends space and time and flows over into the realm of the supernatural. You can reject that fact, but my position is defended sufficiently.

2.) The LDS church teaches that the soul existed before creation, that is the difference. Part of the understanding of God is that he exists outside of this universe but at the same time transcends it all. We, being made in His image share in this attribute to some degree. The soul and mind are similar. They exist supernaturally yet we can see physical manifestations of them as well by means of exercising logic, having a conscience, et al.

3.) Your point is moot because you are failing to acknowledge your own presupposition that is, that God doesn’t exist and the Bible isn’t the ultimate standard of truth. As stated before, be both have presuppositions and must acknowledge that it molds our responses in all that we do. Again, my point is defended adequately.

4.) Yes, the Bible. Your presupposition causes you to reject this defense and mine caused me to accept it wholly and provide defensible responses.

5.) You would have to add the context of the next six words… ‘except by the grace of God.’ I rely on the unfailing grace of God to sustain my handling of the word, which is the only way I can divide it rightly, as it were. This seems rather peripheral coming from a non-believer, but it’s understandable if you had any LDS training, did you? They are trained to defer when faced with something they cannot understand.

6.) After sinning, Adam and Eve covered themselves in shame in an attempt to fix their own problem. After they were kicked out of Eden God killed an animal and covered their shame with the skin of the animals. This is an amazing foreshadowing of God’s system of atonement and loving promise to save us from our shame despite us not being able to do it ourselves. I view this as breathtakingly intentional and glorious as it shines even more credit on the atoning work of Jesus Christ… the Bible is simply amazing.

7.) If I need to prove my presuppositions then you must also and just because mine does not accord with yours is not reason enough to force me to prove it lest I take the same exact position and we go about in circles. I am acknowledging your presupposition even though it is wrong yet not forcing you to prove it. I would like the same respect.  You are free do reject the Bible as the word of Almighty God, but I am not asking for your permission to use it as such, and will not close it for any length of time.

8.) Conor, the irony here is that you are still constructing your worldview on the basis of many ‘faith statements.’ You must have faith to believe that our universe is here by sheer random chance. You must have faith that non-living matter turned into living matter, you must have faith that God doesn’t exist because we both know it’s unprovable. God made it impossible for you to disprove His existence with logic, imagine that.

As for James 2:24, this verse is rampantly misused by Roman Catholics and Mormons alike so it comes as no surprise that you are accepting their theological errors.

What are the first two words of the passage? ‘You see’ Who sees? James is talking to believers. You (Christians) see (with your eyes) ‘that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.’ This is speaking to our ability as Christians to see that other Christians are saved, hence the usage of ‘You see’ that is a literal ‘see’ meaning with your own eyes.

We Christians see that others are justified (saved) based on what we observe them doing.

Now that I have explained it by only using that one verse (not that I am forced to as a Christian) it fits perfectly with the whole of scripture as Christ himself tells us that ‘you shall know them by their fruits’ and Paul explains (before James even writes his epistle) what the fruits of the Spirit are so that we can ‘see’ that a person is justified. Simply saying you have faith in Jesus demonstrates nothing to your brethren that you have actually been saved. This is the pitfall of the mainstream Baptist denominations.

Predicting your bringing up of Paul’s telling us we are justified by faith alone, please understand that he is referencing the justification of Abraham in the context of being justified before God. (Not men as in James 2) It’s far from an acrobatic reconciling of the text, it simply involves understanding context and actually reading the passages.

All the best,

I live in Utah and what the LDS church teaches is prejudice and discrimination  while smiling at those they persecute ...

@BobSpence1

“NO system of thought can be proven from within the system, and that includes whatever substitutes for logic in any world-view which denies the authority of logic and reason.

'God' is utterly irrelevant to any of this.”

You continue to affirm my point… If you cannot validate logic with logic than you admit that your theory of knowledge has a gaping hole in it. I would say that logic can actually be proven based upon the laws of logic. It can be circularly validated albeit fallaciously… The problem with your statement is that you have no external standard to appeal to while validating logic and the Christian does.

I think a better way to say this is that every world view is based on an initial axiom.

Your axiom is this: logic works.

My axiom is this: The Bible is the infallible Word of God.

They are both reasoned out circularly and validated. The reason that Christianity takes the hill is that can justify our use of logic and externally validate it with God’s eternal character and appeal to the fact that we are made in His image.

Hope that helps.

I didn't see anything that refutes or even questions my last post. Until you can prove the existence of god without referring to a book written by man in the dark ages, you're just travelling in circles.

Edit:

I am obliged to ask you if you view the bible literally. All of it. I'll be better able to understand your position one way or the other.

Well... i think we can all stop talking to you then...

You have a point. I keep referring to the dark ages because that's when they were first mass produced.

Hi there Exnihilo.

I've read through your back and forth discussions and understand you to take a literal interpretation of the Bible. Interesting considering the major contradictions between observed reality and Biblical claims. I personally hold the Bible to be a book of myths and legends more or less the same as any other ancient mythical belief propagated to explain what was considered unknowable. The Judeo-Christian god seems to have his origins in the Canaanite pantheon. But, truly this discussion would serve no point with you, as you have the proof God exists don't you? It is within your own mind that such proof exists right? You exist, therefore God made you and all the universe, right?  It has nothing at all to do with over-stimulation of your fantasy centers does it?

First off, is there a specific denomination of Christianity to which you adhere or do you subscribe to your own interpretations?

Second, what version of the Bible do you consider to be the most accurate reflection of God's word?

I have read more than enough of your posts to understand that you base your faith on a basis that can't be proved. It is futile in that regard to attempt to confront you with the possibilities that your entire operating system is based on errors and misconceptions. So what is it that you are looking to accomplish with your visit to the RRS? Is it your hope that you can reach some of us with the good news that Jesus died for you and me etc. Many of us are ex-Christians with much knowledge of the subject  In my case, I went to parochial schools and even have a Grad degree from a Jesuit University. Obviously I was not a "true believer" or I never truly accepted Jesus or I'd still be deceived and be like you.

If you came here to gain understanding of atheists and learn, then that's another story. If this is a missionary mission on your part it is doomed to failure.

So, uh... coming out of left field here...

Any particular reason behind choosing a roman legion symbol as an avatar Nihilo?

I ask, solely out of boredom... no real agenda, i just feel that the corrolation between people and the avatars they choose... is interesting

I figured as much from your comments that it matters little what we would have to say regarding the Bible's origins or possible evolution from myths and legends. Since you have taken that position, we are opposites in that any argument made from the Bible is the use of a book of myths and fantasy from the land of never was and make believe. You are quite free to base your life on these delusions if you so choose. Quotes and references from it by you have no basis in the harsh light of reality and are considered to be not only irrelevant but dwelling on childish fantasy in the land and dimension of never was and make belief.

Just checking to understand what primary doctrine that you used to form your religious belief. Thanks as it helps in understanding your position.

I personally like the Hebrew JPS and the Douay-Rheims versions and use the KJV only to argue with believers that think it is the only real word of God and it came forth from him at the time of King James.

And you are incorrect as far as the Roman Catholic Church is concerned they consider me to be a relapsed Catholic heretic not an ex-Christian. Originally I was Lutheran, but when I converted they more or less disowned me. Clearly, I did not have the ability to suppress my questioning of the irrational precepts of god belief and allow internal delusion as an operating system as it takes an ability to deceive ones own self which is self destructive and needlessly insensitive to ones own well being.

This is a duplicate so please only respond to one...

Bob,

The Word of God is axiomatic in everything it states including the very statement that establishes it as the Word of God. God is truth; therefore all of His explanations of reality are axioms. Being the Word of God the Bible carries with it supreme authority...

This is circular, but not false.

Answer me this:

Can logic be independently verified?

It's merely my opinion, but two Greek letters arranged into a Christogram is hardly of Catholic origin.

As for a presupposition:

'a presupposition is a proposition which must be true in order for the a statement to make sense'

Two basic examples from the atheist world view:

"God does not exist"

"The supernatural/spiritual does not exist"

One of mine would be: God exists.

I look forward to hearing back from you.

Do you care to substantiate these claims at all?

Firstly, there are no atheists period. The Bible clearly affirms this. Your own statement defends this with your admitting that you can't know for certain.

God, namely the triune God of the Bible answers all the meaningful questions of life.

The terms spiritual and supernatural describe much... If you start with the position that neither exist then not only have you willingly limited your own scope of wisdom (narrow-minded), but you have also set yourself up to examine any evidence with a significant bias.

For instance...

You hear of a man who was dead long enough that he should have sustained brain damage, but woke up on the way to the morgue.

Your presupposition forces to say 'Well since it certainly couldn't have been God, it must have been scientific chance of some sort!'

By the grace of God, I simply cannot be that narrow.

I was under the impression that the more intellectually honest folks go ahead and admit that they can't really be atheists...

Go ahead and straighten me out... what am I missing/why do we define these terms differently?

I appreciate your explaination.

It seems as if you reject one more God then I do, the problem is that you are rejecting the only true God.

I don't have to know for certain that NO god exists to lack belief in one. There might be a unicorn wandering the forests of Alberta, but until I see it I won't believe it.
Second, your own response destroys your argument. If atheism didn't exist, then it could not have a world view. Either way, I'm right.

"God, namely the triune God of the Bible answers all the meaningful questions of life."

I do that. More evidence that I am the only god of me.
I covered supernatural already, and it directly applies to your definition of spiritual.

"You hear of a man who was dead long enough that he should have sustained brain damage, but woke up on the way to the morgue."

After three days? Then I'd think something was up. Hell, even one day would suffice. I don't have any evidence to suggest it happened.

The Bible can affirm the Moon is made of green cheese and you'd defend it wouldn't you.  It indicated the world was set on pillars and for 1500 years the Church used the Bible to defend a flat Earth. I know, it was the RCC right? However, until Luther the Church other than the Eastern Orthodox was it.

The words in the Bible are words of men, not of a god. It is  filled with ignorance, errors and misconception. That you see nothing but God in it says all that needs to be said about being closed minded. You have shut out observed reality and knowledge.

My position is that what I was taught as a Christian isn't true and can't be true. What is truth, not what I was taught. Yahweh that became your True god is no more than a residual from the ages of superstition and ignorance. That you think a man lived in the belly of a whale and other such stuff was real says all that needs to be said about narrow minded thinking.

Double posted... oops

If your many interesting conversations include you talking about Jesus as an imaginary friend then I doubt you respect the people you're talking to, despite calling them friends. It's obvious that you have no respect for me, and that's OK.

Next, I have the vantage point of coming from atheism myself and have many people that will testify to that. I ruined the faith of many people before the Lord Jesus called me out of darkness. I did what you are trying to do...

It's not my judgment that makes you a liar; it's the Word of God. It says that when people calling themselves Christians walk away from the faith their leaving is evidence that they never really knew Christ, which seems to be the case with you.
 

"The days of being a pacifist and taking smears from believers are over."

The motivation of a believer should never be motivated by making smears. You certainly seem resolved in your campaign against religion, which is sad because for each nugget of truth you dismiss you dig a deeper pit for yourself with God.

I don't watch much football, but I will claim the Packers for what it's worth...

I love when lost sheep come knocking, it makes my job easier!

"You came here to an atheist forum, I didn't go to a Christian web site."

And yet you chose to run to the defense of atheism... We both care about our positon being defended.

"Just what makes me a liar?"

Well if you want to say you are a former Christian the Bible does.

If you want to say you don't believe in God, the Bible does.

And yet our airwaves are filled with televangelists that do so. Even cable news has taken to smearing non-believers. And especially the hate emulating from supposed believers against gays and abortion clinics. I don't know your position on gays or abortion so I can't say you are part. But Christians are actively involved in trying to force their values upon others especially in these areas. You can see their hate filled signs as they walk picket lines against both. Why they care if 2 gays get married is beyond me. According to most Christian understanding, if the pagans and infidels are doing something that is against the teaching of God, you shouldn't do it but there was certainly no directive to actively attack it. When Jesus sent his disciples out and the 70 others, they were told to teach the word but to walk away from those that rejected it. What part of this indicates you should force your values upon others. But interfering and forcing your view on them with violence such as Ambrose and Augustine preached certainly is going beyond the scope of the directives of the Apostles and Jesus. I simply don't get it. It's what drove the Crusades and the Inquisition both. Well not completely, there was greed in there as well.

See, no problem.

If the world is not to fall into another 'Dark Ages" or become as the world of "Omega Man" (1969 Charlton Heston Movie - updated as "I am Legend", but significantly different) than a defense of rational thought and observed reality must occur.

Yes, I care about  all the people in the world who are enslaved by belief in untrue religious concepts. An incredible amount of resources are wasted in its promotion. People's lives are forfeited to please a God that is non-existent instead of developing a better life for themselves and their children. Such a waste of humanity.

I have no issue with the Jesus portrayed in the Gospels who tells people to care for one another, clothe them, feed them and help them. Christians in general do not do this as was directed. Consider, there would be no homeless or starving people in the US if simply the Catholic church put these people up in all their expensive facilities. They don't. The mega churches could do the same. They don't. Even smaller churches could house and feed a few. They don't. There were no strings in the directive from Jesus in the Gospels, why for example were there strings for helping Tsunami victims by Liberty University and Falwell's people.

And as I said, I don't know your view on this, so it only applies to the whole, not necessarily an individual or even a single church.

No, I'm a heretic and a godless heathen and would have burned for it during the Inquisition, though I advocate no religious doctrine.

@Atheistextremist

“Do you believe in murder and torture, eXni?”

Of course, it’s documented as happening all over the place. Do I condone it for my own purposes or gain or am I permitted to take vengeance into my own hands? No. Can God murder? No. Murder implies innocence, no man is innocent in the eyes of God who does not have the covering of the Lord Jesus…

Do you condone a person tormenting endlessly another person, just to prove how big and important he is?

Of course not, and this is not the purpose that people are endlessly tormented. Hell is the due justice for a person who commits a sin. Sin is a transgression of an infinite being, God. The just punishment in turn is eternal punishment that does not end.

So, eXni. Which one is the violent thug? Is it you, or is it your god?

Neither.