Why try to abolish religion?

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Why try to abolish religion?

So I was raised Christian and I guess you could say I'm now agnostic.  When checking out atheism, I found this group but one thing struck me. Why are you trying to abolish religion? I understand that you don't believe in it but don't people have the right to believe it if they want?

 

I feel like a lot of the atheists here are mainly slandering religion instead acknowledging that religion is an option but then point out (amicably) why you disagree with its premise. Although I agree that a lot of atrocities have been done in its name (a lot of atrocities have been done in general), I feel like many good things have been done in its name. The same goes for atheism.


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Religion is the backbone of

Welcome! Smiling
Religion is the backbone of ignorance and most conflict seen today, and throughout human history. It is the leading cause of human suffering. It promotes prejudice by its very nature. The sooner it has been erradicated the better.
There's nothing inherently wrong with belief in a god, gods, alien visitation, or santa claus. But when groups of people who believe these things congregate and attempt to force their views upon everyone else, it becomes the most disgusting creation of our species. It must be ended for our species to survive and prosper.

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Welcome to the forum,

Welcome to the forum, up_the_ante.

up_the_ante wrote:
I understand that you don't believe in it but don't people have the right to believe it if they want?

Of course.

When we say that we want to "abolish" religion, we're not suggesting that we want to make it illegal or start anti-religious crusades to kill all the believers. We merely want to promote critical thinking and a free marketplace of ideas. Personally, I don't think religion will ever 'die out,' but we can always make steps in the right direction.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Hi, up_the_anteThe vast

Hi, up_the_ante

The vast majority of atheists have had religion in their upbringing. The reasons for the difference in the severity of animosities toward religion among atheists is based solely upon their own individual experiences.

For instance, I think there is a direct correlation between how extreme the 'faith' was in regard to how we react to it now.

If an individual grows up in a moderate household then I believe they are moderate in their activism when they grow up(believer or not).

You'll find quite a bit of material on this site with regard to the various ideas of how religion hurts humanity.

My opinion is that all religions surreptitiously supplant our empathy toward one another with the religion itself. e.g. 'Love jesus more than your family', 'honor buddha by loving everything equally', 'allah is god and muhammad is his prophet', 'the losers were marked by El with dark skin', 'god promised Abraham his people were the chosen', etc.

Meanwhile, I assert that a society devoid of religion becomes self-reliant and assumes all consequences for its actions rather than being able to use the catch-all blame machine/aka scapegoat(bible) known as 'god'.

Now, this is all regardless of whether or not a god(s) exists. Atheists have chosen to be without BELIEF in god(s) and thus you'll find the word 'agnostic' almost useless. Theism requires a positive belief, the assertion from someone that 'they believe in god(s)' is all that is needed to qualify whereas atheism is lacking a positive belief or not believing. The label covers such a broad range of people including self-proclaimed 'agnostics', apathetic atheists, and the people who assert that there is no god.

Hope that helps.

 

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Promotes prejudice?

Vastet wrote:
It promotes prejudice by its very nature.

 

I agree that some radical sects are intolerant, but most religions promote tolerance. Christianity says "pray for the enemy" and encourages helping the "poor Samaritan." The Parsee won't even accept you as a member once converted, both your parents must be converted. They have to be open-minded to other religions because practically no one else is of their sect. The B'hai believe that every religion has truth in it and ANYONE can come worship at their temples.

 

And by saying that "its very nature promotes prejudice", aren't you being prejudice yourself?


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Well I'm glad to hear you

Well I'm glad to hear you have that view, butterbattle. (I guess I was just reading posts of people who were a little more... radical.)

 

In fact, I think you have the same opinion as my best friend.


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So a theist could be an agnostic?

 

I thought theist means you believed there was a god and that agnostic meant you didn't know if there was a god...

Oh well, show how much I know. LOL


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So a theist could be an agnostic?

 

I thought theist means you believed there was a god and that agnostic meant you didn't know if there was a god...

Oh well, show how much I know. LOL


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Tolerance

Most religions do promote tolerance, that is true, however those same religions promote hatred and ignorance. If you were to live by the bible, and follow all it's laws, you would be put in jail. If there is someone that lives in your area that has a different belief than you (christianity for example or any of the abrahamic religions) and they were to say that it's ok to believe in other gods, you have to put them to death. If a gay person lives in your area you have to put them to death, the penalty for alot of things is death in the abrahamic religions. Tolerance is not really in the bible, tolerance is in there to a point, that whole love your neighbour part, only really works if they follow the same religion and similar beliefs as you, the moment they differ, time to kill them off.

The idea of getting rid of religion comes naturally from rational and critical thinking abilities. Once you dispel the ignorance you can dispel religion. however religion is very much ingrained in our society as whole and I doubt it will ever actually be abolished. But it doesn't mean we can't dream of a world without religion and the ignorance it bred. For those same radicals are there because the moderates allow it, and really are held hostage to them due to the fact that they would have to disagree with their religion and the teachings of their religions when it comes to radicals, a hard thing to do for many followers.


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up_the_ante wrote:So a

up_the_ante wrote:

So a theist could be an agnostic?

I thought theist means you believed there was a god and that agnostic meant you didn't know if there was a god...

Well, I suppose this is a categorical question on the distrinction between beleifs and knowledge. Some suppose that knowledge is justified true belief, that is to say that some belief X actually is true and one has good reason to think that X is true. If there are such categorical distinctions, one could have belief in a god without actually knowing whether that that god exists. That is a beleif that is not neccessarily true, but otherwise unknown. I suppose this would be an "agnostic" theist.

“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”


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"I agree that some radical

"I agree that some radical sects are intolerant, but most religions promote tolerance."

Most religions claim to, but their very teachings preclude the possibility.

"Christianity says "pray for the enemy" and encourages helping the "poor Samaritan.""

It also says unbelievers will suffer for eternity, and tells people to proselytize.

I'm not familiar with the next two religions you mentioned.

"And by saying that "its very nature promotes prejudice", aren't you being prejudice yourself?"

I never denied it. I'm prejudiced against a lot of things: unnecessary violence, hate, willful ignorance, and I could probably come up with a few more. The difference is that I can logically defend my prejudice. A theist cannot.

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up_the_ante wrote:So I was

up_the_ante wrote:

So I was raised Christian and I guess you could say I'm now agnostic.  When checking out atheism, I found this group but one thing struck me. Why are you trying to abolish religion? I understand that you don't believe in it but don't people have the right to believe it if they want?

 

I feel like a lot of the atheists here are mainly slandering religion instead acknowledging that religion is an option but then point out (amicably) why you disagree with its premise. Although I agree that a lot of atrocities have been done in its name (a lot of atrocities have been done in general), I feel like many good things have been done in its name. The same goes for atheism.

When you use the word "abolish" you make us sound like Hitler. WE DO want to see the end of religion, that part is true. BUT TACTIC has to take into account human empathy. FORCE never works. It doesn't work for believers on other believers and it wont work for atheists either.

BUT what we can do is use the same free market of ideas to SHOW people that they don't need it, be it through debate, blasphemy or ridicule or science. Only politically correct people, believers or not, want to use force.

A position switched on one's own terms is a REAL change. A position switched by the force of another make people bitter and violent. Reason isn't what leads you to what you want to hear, reason leads you to what can be verified independently outside your own bias.

We don't want to abolish religion anymore than we want to abolish people from believing the earth is flat. Galileo didn't want to "abolish" those claims, he simply told those around them they got it wrong. Conversely, the CHURCH tried to "abolish" his truth telling by putting him under house arrest. But the church still lost to the truth, didn't it?

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You also used the word

You also used the word "slander" to describe some of the atheists you encounter in reference to their word choice.

YOU don't believe in Thor. If someone today came up to you and said "Thor makes lighting"

And you responded "Bullshit, a god didn't do it. It is merely the product of positive and negative charges in the atmosphere", would that mean you are slandering their belief, or trying to verbally smack them in the face to wake them up?

Are there good people who believe absurd things? YES! But when it gets bad for our species is when these well intended people think their personal superstition is good for global politics. When we come along and tell them the earth isn't flat and Santa isn't real, they get pissy because we are trying to pull them by the bootstraps out of the past.

It is NOT slander to ridicule something that has no evidence. It is not slander to say the moon is not made of cheese. It is not slander to tell believers that their tribal beefs are fucking up the planet.

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up_the_ante wrote:So a

up_the_ante wrote:

So a theist could be an agnostic?

 

I thought theist means you believed there was a god and that agnostic meant you didn't know if there was a god...

Oh well, show how much I know. LOL

LOL. Actually, I would say every person labeled 'sane' is agnostic. Theist or atheist. Because if one 'knew' there was a god then they wouldn't have to worry about that pesky belief or faith issue.

Read some of the answers to the question: "How do you personally know there is a god?"

Try to keep a straight face while reading. I dare you.

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darth_josh wrote:Read some

darth_josh wrote:

Read some of the answers to the question: "How do you personally know there is a god?"

Try to keep a straight face while reading. I dare you.

 

 

Just google it or is there an actual thread that addresses that?


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Brian37 wrote:We don't want

Brian37 wrote:

We don't want to abolish religion anymore than we want to abolish people from believing the earth is flat. Galileo didn't want to "abolish" those claims, he simply told those around them they got it wrong.

Good point. That puts things in perspective.

 

But I still don't feel like Galileo was insensitive to the fact that he was changing the whole world. Literally. LOL.

Trust me, I know it's frustrating when people are slow to understand reason, but staying respectful is always a good thing - even if I believe something as ridiculous as Santa coming to my house on Christmas.


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Vastet wrote: I'm prejudiced

Vastet wrote:
I'm prejudiced against a lot of things: unnecessary violence, hate, willful ignorance...

OK, so I agree that prejudice isn't necessarily bad. I've converted. LOL.

But....

 

Vastet wrote:
I'm not familiar with the next two religions you mentioned.

I know everyone has better things to do, but before COMPLETELY disregarding religion, look it up a little more. Google is TOTALLY my friend.

But seriously, it varies a lot - TRUST ME - my school required I take a class on them. For almost any extreme, you can find the opposite.


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My view is that religions I

My view is that religions I don't know about aren't nearly big enough to be a threat, so I don't tend to engage them in debate. Even the biggest religions have many followers that will never cross my path for the simple reason that they don't feel the need to preach at every street corner or tell me what my kids (if I had any) should be learning in school. I do acknowledge that many forms of believers are in and of themselves not the problem. So I leave them be and focus on the dangerous ones. Smiling

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up_the_ante wrote:Brian37

up_the_ante wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

We don't want to abolish religion anymore than we want to abolish people from believing the earth is flat. Galileo didn't want to "abolish" those claims, he simply told those around them they got it wrong.

Good point. That puts things in perspective.

 

But I still don't feel like Galileo was insensitive to the fact that he was changing the whole world. Literally. LOL.

Trust me, I know it's frustrating when people are slow to understand reason, but staying respectful is always a good thing - even if I believe something as ridiculous as Santa coming to my house on Christmas.

I hate the word "respect" as it is commonly used. It is nothing more than the words of the insecure in order to set up a taboo so they can avoid facing the fact they might be wrong. I DONT respect people who like taboos. I do appreciate people who are not afraid of debate or blasphemy.

I value someone making the effort to back up what they claim.

There is a difference between the person, and the separate issue of the claim a person makes ON ANY ISSUE.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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