13 dead at Fort Hood and god watches.

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13 dead at Fort Hood and god watches.
First off, my heart goes out to those affected and to all our military that serve.

But how does "God bless our troops" play out with something like this?

If a claimed god is supposed to be our body guard, how is it, anyone, much less these unfortunate people gets killed like this?

I guess these brave soldiers who died, not on the battle field, but at home, were not praying hard enough?

It SUCKS! That anything like this happens. It sucks when people die in any mass murder or in a natural disaster. But why do humans, time after time still insist on believing in a deadbeat dad in the sky who is selective about whom dies and whom doesn't?
 

 UPDATE 13 dead.

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Wow. Never figured someone

Wow. Never figured someone would be fucked up enough to try something like this. My condolences to the US.

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 Good thing we're covering

 Good thing we're covering this nonstop in the news, and we don't cover 12 deaths a day in Iraq and Afghanistan with anything more than a 2 second mention.  Kudos to the press to keeping us ignorant!

 

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I don't watch TV as it melts

I don't watch TV as it melts your brain but how is it that 40 year old psychiatrist killed 12 and wounded over 30 and none of the other soldiers on the base could stop him?  It was left to police to shoot the killer down?  Don't these people have any training in war and firearms? 

Couple kids take guns to school and shoot unarmed teenagers in a cafeteria and they can't get that bodycount...  An army psychiatrist takes a couple handguns to a military base and it is fish in a barrel.

Just don't get it.


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Religion doesn't cure suicidal tendencies

I am not in America, I'm in Korea, and I don't get the inundation that you who live in America do.  I do think that it's odd that the media is covering this more than all the deaths that happen, to the US military, all over the world.  Soldiers in combat zones are taking hits all the time, but where is their sensationalist media?  The media is always looking for a shocking story to display in front of the American public, and so they have yet another tragedy to report.  It's a no brainer, the media is in the business of making money, not giving news.  The news can be boring if it isn't sensationalist.

As a former soldier, and Airman, this whole things makes me crazy.  Men and women who intended to serve their country, to protect their families against foreign enemies, are instead attacked by domestic terrorists.  When I was in the Air Force I saw this firsthand as my Marine buddies were attacked, with knives, in Pennsacola, Fl, because they were military, and their attackers (gang members) wanted respect from their fellow gang members.  It doesn't matter where we go, there is always going to be violence against us.  We look outward for our enemies, but they exist at home as well, around every corner (if you truly want to be paranoid about it.  However, it does us no good to be so paranoid), so military members must be mindful at all times. 

I have read that the individual that committed the crimes was 1. an officer 2. a muslim and that he had been given orders to deploy to Iraq.  Jihad Watch has already started linking "devout Muslim" to his recent actions.  I urge caution in drawing these conclusions, even as I think, in the back of my mind, that we can never trust a "true believer" of any religion. 

 

 


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I just watched a segment on

I just watched a segment on CNN where the alleged shooter had a conversation with a 7-11 employee weeks prior expressing his concern about having to be deployed overseas and possibly kill fellow Muslims.

WHICH MISSES THE POINT OF OUR CONSTITUTION! THE SAME FUCKING POINT CHRISTIANS MISS!

Apearently this idiot nut job joined because he wanted to protect Allah and not freedom of religion. The same tribal idiotic crap Christians spew when they say "God bless our Troops".

WHEN YOU JOIN, YOUR DUTY IS TO PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF EVERYONE, NOT JUST THE PEOPLE YOU AGREE WITH!

THIS FUCKWAD IS AS BAD AS ANY RIGHT WING CHRISTIAN JOINING BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BUILD A CHRISTIAN NATION!

The founders were wise in KNOWING that we would not agree on the issue of religion and also knew the best way to protect freedom of religion was not to make it a political tool, but something best left up to the individual.

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Sapient wrote: Good thing

Sapient wrote:

 Good thing we're covering this nonstop in the news, and we don't cover 12 deaths a day in Iraq and Afghanistan with anything more than a 2 second mention.  Kudos to the press to keeping us ignorant!

 

Not just  that...

How many times ive been flicking thru channels and stop on American news for a couple seconds to see Micheal Jackson, Jon and Kate, and the Octomm while small 1 inch wide banners quickly flow by at the bottom of the screen saying "18 killed in Afganistan," "7.2  earthqake hits China 238 killed", etc....

Fox just makes me puke.

Good thing theirs the daily show and colbert report to bring you the truth.


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yes very sad and all. There

yes very sad and all. There is some irony in that a psychiatrist was the one that snaped though. Im far to desencitised towards this kind of violent killing though. 50 murders a day in a country the size of south africa, its bound to happen.  I know the media is looking for a "that horrible reaction" "shock" but when everydays paper is filled with 5 innocents killed in robbery shoot out, 7 innocents dead in cash-in-transit robbery and man dies in atm bombing, family of 5 raped and murdered in home invasion.... its kinda hard to still find anything shocking or even care to much about these kind of things.

 

but I am wondering why this is somehow worse than all the other killings that happen around america? So much so that it made news here in south africa and it was felt nessicary to post it here when others are not.

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jerrywally wrote:I am not in

jerrywally wrote:
I am not in America, I'm in Korea, and I don't get the inundation that you who live in America do. I do think that it's odd that the media is covering this more than all the deaths that happen, to the US military, all over the world. Soldiers in combat zones are taking hits all the time, but where is their sensationalist media? The media is always looking for a shocking story to display in front of the American public, and so they have yet another tragedy to report. It's a no brainer, the media is in the business of making money, not giving news. The news can be boring if it isn't sensationalist.

 

Interesting take on that. And one from a professed soldier no less.

 

One aspect to this is that we in the US have an all volunteer force. Presumably, when one signs up, one is aware that the position is not without the risk of dying in a war overseas (even if the original plan was to wear a smart uniform only until qualifying for free college). So yah, soldiers die. It is always terrible when they do and as a people, we should mourn their passing. Hell's bells but how does anyone imagine that we are free to engage in all of the silly behavior that happens in the US and would simply not be tolerated in many other nations?

 

In any case, the populist media tried to play the “OMG! A soldier died today” card over and over at the beginning of the current war. Yes, soldiers die. While it is a sad matter, it is part of the job, the same as a police officer being shot by a gang member or a firefighter being crushed by a burning roof beam. It is of course appropriate to mourn the passing of all our nation's men and women in uniform.

 

Then too, we can be a callous people and it gets tiring after a while to hear the same thing day in and day out from a populist media trying to steer our emotions to support a specific agenda. When that angle became played out, they turned to the banner on the aircraft carrier that said “mission accomplished”.

 

That was supposed to be a positive thing for the people who served on that specific mission. Yet the media tried to turn that into “OK, the war is over now”. And began trying to track the day when more soldiers had died “after the war was over” than civilians had died on 9/11. Umm, no.

 

According to icasualities.org, 4,677 coalition soldiers have died in Iraq since the invasion. Every one of them is a tragic loss and should not be minimized. Even though it is really doubtful that Iraq was ever all that much of a threat to anyone (outside of Iran and Israel), one must remember that every one of those deaths was was someone sacrificing their life for their nation.

 

That being said, an average of about two deaths per day is hardly a river of blood. For comparison:

 

Approximately 17,000 men died in less than an hour at the battle of Cold Harbor.

 

Approximately 25,000 men died taking the beaches on D-day.

 

I could go on with historical death tolls but I believe that my point has been made.

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What's the big deal some

What's the big deal some ask? This presents a serious security problem in the military. There are weapons that can cause far more damage. Now all non-muslim soldiers have to ask themselves which muslim in the military forces can be trusted? Who or what are they allegent to?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Answers in Gene Simmons...................

 

 

 

                ...............  I just noticed the line you added to your avatar.   I will now ask you respectfully,  in the name of decency  to remove it.  Nothing is worse then that,   we are the RATIONAL response squad.

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Jeffrick

Jeffrick wrote:

                ...............  I just noticed the line you added to your avatar.   I will now ask you respectfully,  in the name of decency  to remove it.  Nothing is worse then that,   we are the RATIONAL response squad.

 

o_O? what exactly are you reffering to? "Worse than Hitler" ?

If so, Gene didnt add it... it was taken directly from the family guy episode where Brian is outed as an atheist and gets slandered on the local news (which is that pic)

Context help at all?

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No.

The Doomed Soul wrote:

Jeffrick wrote:

                ...............  I just noticed the line you added to your avatar.   I will now ask you respectfully,  in the name of decency  to remove it.  Nothing is worse then that,   we are the RATIONAL response squad.

 

o_O? what exactly are you reffering to? "Worse than Hitler" ?

If so, Gene didnt add it... it was taken directly from the family guy episode where Brian is outed as an atheist and gets slandered on the local news (which is that pic)

Context help at all?

   

 

 

           No !!   The quote does not apply to Answers in Gene Simmons,  nor to The Doomed Soul ,  nor to anyone else on this site  that I am aware of,  Nothing is worse then that, NOTHING!!!!!!

 

            I can not edit anything on this site.   I did ask respectfully -- in the name of decentcy -- in the name of RATIONAL  response;  I high lighted RATIONAL for a reason.  With the intent NOT TO ABASE anyone on this site to be worse then that;   Nothing is wose then that;   NOTHING.

 

 

           I ask only that ALL here be rational;  I am deeply offended in words I  can not explain any better then this.  Sorry all around if my deeply felt request offends any one.

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

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aiia wrote:What's the big

aiia wrote:

What's the big deal some ask? This presents a serious security problem in the military. There are weapons that can cause far more damage. Now all non-muslim soldiers have to ask themselves which muslim in the military forces can be trusted? Who or what are they allegent to?

Mass murder in public settings has been going on forever. A guy blew away several people from a clock tower on a University campus in the 60s. He wasn't a Muslim. An unemployed nutcase went into a McDonalds and murdered 20 some odd people in San Diego in the early 80s. HE WASN'T A MUSLIM. Columbine mean anything? Lubies cafiteria in the 90s, 20 some odd people murderd there too, that guy wasn't a Muslim. The guy at VA tec wasn't a Muslim.

And there have been collectively throughout all our wars, domestic violence from vets who have come home and suffered PTSD. More murders and suicides happen in the military because of combat stress. This guy wasn't suffering from that. His violence has to do with his own insecurities in his life.

Not all Muslims who serve are going to end up like this nut. The media shrinks have already hinted as to why this guy snapped. He felt like his life wasn't going the way he wanted to, and he got a bad job review. This wasn't so much him being a Muslim as much as it was his own ego and selfishness.

All these nuts have in common are insecurity. They feel they have no other way to get attention and feel like failures so they take others out to make a name for themselves because they couldn't make it in real life.

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:This wasn't so

Brian37 wrote:

This wasn't so much him being a Muslim as much as it was his own ego and selfishness.

 

Brian37, if that's the case why was he trying to convert soldiers he was supposed to be helping, handing out copies of the quran before he went to Ft. Hood, shouting "allahu akbar!" as he shot the place up if it had nothing to do with islam.

 

Come on, dude.

 

also ask yourself why are moslems so predisposed to violence?

Radical Islam from a moslem POV

 

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Abu Lahab wrote:Brian37

Abu Lahab wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

This wasn't so much him being a Muslim as much as it was his own ego and selfishness.

 

Brian37, if that's the case why was he trying to convert soldiers he was supposed to be helping, handing out copies of the quran before he went to Ft. Hood, shouting "allahu akbar!" as he shot the place up if it had nothing to do with islam.

 

Come on, dude.

 

also ask yourself why are moslems so predisposed to violence?

Radical Islam from a moslem POV

 

I am not going to say that religion didn't play a role. I am merely saying that mundane human psychology caused him to do what he did the same way that the Colimbine killers did what they did. Why Bin Ladin did what he did, why Charles Manson did what he did. ALL OF THEM did not take criticism or rejection well. Bin Ladin's beef was not that there were non-Muslims in the world. HIS OWN FAMILY didn't like his views on how they were dealing with the west. His revenge was not aimed at the west. His revenge was based on his own rejection of his own family.

This nut got a bad review and used it as an excuse to play victim.

Religion DID play a part in that this nutcase used it as an excuse. But the main goal of all of these people is a cry for attention. They couldn't make it by non-violent means, so they did the only cheap thing they could do to make a name for themselves.

Religion is a weapon.

 

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Brian37 wrote:But how does

Brian37 wrote:

But how does "God bless our troops" play out with something like this?

Allah and Muhammed are having a good week.

Yaweh and Jesus are getting their asses kicked. You know kind of like the Redskins lately.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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Jeffrick wrote:The Doomed

Jeffrick wrote:

The Doomed Soul wrote:

Jeffrick wrote:

                ...............  I just noticed the line you added to your avatar.   I will now ask you respectfully,  in the name of decency  to remove it.  Nothing is worse then that,   we are the RATIONAL response squad.

 

o_O? what exactly are you reffering to? "Worse than Hitler" ?

If so, Gene didnt add it... it was taken directly from the family guy episode where Brian is outed as an atheist and gets slandered on the local news (which is that pic)

Context help at all?

   

 

 

           No !!   The quote does not apply to Answers in Gene Simmons,  nor to The Doomed Soul ,  nor to anyone else on this site  that I am aware of,  Nothing is worse then that, NOTHING!!!!!!

 

            I can not edit anything on this site.   I did ask respectfully -- in the name of decentcy -- in the name of RATIONAL  response;  I high lighted RATIONAL for a reason.  With the intent NOT TO ABASE anyone on this site to be worse then that;   Nothing is wose then that;   NOTHING.

 

 

           I ask only that ALL here be rational;  I am deeply offended in words I  can not explain any better then this.  Sorry all around if my deeply felt request offends any one.

  You have truly left me baffled.  Are you serious ? 

   Get a grip for god's sake. Please.

 


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Jeffrick

Jeffrick wrote:
 

           No !!   The quote does not apply to Answers in Gene Simmons,  nor to The Doomed Soul ,  nor to anyone else on this site  that I am aware of,  Nothing is worse then that, NOTHING!!!!!!

            I can not edit anything on this site.   I did ask respectfully -- in the name of decentcy -- in the name of RATIONAL  response;  I high lighted RATIONAL for a reason.  With the intent NOT TO ABASE anyone on this site to be worse then that;   Nothing is wose then that;   NOTHING.

           I ask only that ALL here be rational;  I am deeply offended in words I  can not explain any better then this.  Sorry all around if my deeply felt request offends any one.

Are you okay, man? Of course Brian isn't worse than Hitler. It's just a joke from Family Guy. 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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First of all, Hitler was

First of all, Hitler was just a man. He was hardly the epitome of evil. Plenty of people qualify as "worse than Hitler" in my eyes. Which is not to say he was a nice guy.

Second of all, this is hardly a moslem only occurrence. Plenty of people have flipped out in the military and killed their fellow soldiers throughout the centuries. White, black, purple and green. Christian, jew, moslem, and zuesian. Israeli, American, Canadian, and Chinese. No religion, ethnicity, or nation has a monopoly on insanity. Period.

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In the last 6 years:former

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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The Doomed Soul wrote:  

The Doomed Soul wrote:

 

Jeffrick wrote:
I just noticed the line you added to your avatar. I will now ask you respectfully, in the name of decency to remove it. Nothing is worse then that, we are the RATIONAL response squad.

 

o_O? what exactly are you reffering to? "Worse than Hitler" ?

 

If so, Gene didnt add it... it was taken directly from the family guy episode where Brian is outed as an atheist and gets slandered on the local news (which is that pic)

 

Context help at all?

 

Basically yes. However, you did not mention the fact that Brian would not have been outed as an atheist if not for the Kirk Cameron tie-in.

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Jeffrick,Yes. We are

Jeffrick,

Yes. We are RRS.

Having an emotional response to words in an avatar depicting the happenings on a cartoon is irrational, in my opinion.

However, your objection is duly noted.

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Donte wrote:I don't watch TV

Donte wrote:

I don't watch TV as it melts your brain but how is it that 40 year old psychiatrist killed 12 and wounded over 30 and none of the other soldiers on the base could stop him?  It was left to police to shoot the killer down?  Don't these people have any training in war and firearms? 

Couple kids take guns to school and shoot unarmed teenagers in a cafeteria and they can't get that bodycount...  An army psychiatrist takes a couple handguns to a military base and it is fish in a barrel.

Just don't get it.

Well when the troops are on base they are unarmed. I'm guessing the MP's are armed but there probably weren't any around. All weapons are locked up in the armory so by time anyone could get any the shooting would probably be over. No one expects to be shot in their own base on their soil, so you can't blame them for being abit slow to react. When they're in combat they are fully armed and expecting to be shot. When you're on home soil you wouldn't be so alert.

My father(ever the open minded christian) was saying how stupid Americans are for allowing muslims in their army. I support religous freedom, otherwise we are no better than theist dictators. I think the main question is was this a 'jihad' shooting, or was he just sick of everything and snapped? I also have to wonder, if a christian snapped and went on a shooting spree would the story get half this amount of attention?

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

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Loc wrote:I support religous

Loc wrote:

I support religous freedom, otherwise we are no better than theist dictators. I think the main question is was this a 'jihad' shooting, or was he just sick of everything and snapped? I also have to wonder, if a christian snapped and went on a shooting spree would the story get half this amount of attention?

Your lack of understanding of islam is clearly why you see islam as no different from any other religion. Pick up the quran, read it, then read a few accompanying books that explain why it's a totalitarian cult not just a religion. You cannot be a good moslem AND a member of a democratic country.

 

The good news is that this guy, Hasan, was already on the CIA watch list for his attempts at trying to contact aQ.

 

The bad news? Oh, he doesn't pose a threat....

 

Add to this the determination of the West to be multicultural against good sense and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

Fuck islam and moslems, they are far worse than facists. Don't believe me? Do some research and find out.

 

 

 

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Vastet wrote:First of all,

Vastet wrote:
First of all, Hitler was just a man. He was hardly the epitome of evil. Plenty of people qualify as "worse than Hitler" in my eyes. Which is not to say he was a nice guy. Second of all, this is hardly a moslem only occurrence. Plenty of people have flipped out in the military and killed their fellow soldiers throughout the centuries. White, black, purple and green. Christian, jew, moslem, and zuesian. Israeli, American, Canadian, and Chinese. No religion, ethnicity, or nation has a monopoly on insanity. Period.

Hitler was just a man, that is true. And if people hadn't worshiped him like people worship gods, he couldn't have done what he did. But Europe and America after WW1 only have themselves to blame. If Germany had not been left to rot economically Hitler most likely would have just been a nutcase conspiracy theorist handing out pamphlets on a street corner. Hitler worked the same way Kim Jong Ill works, the same mental mind trap that makes god belief work. If someone feeds you, don't bite the hand that feeds you. Problem is if you allow yourself to be lead by the nose, you can most certainly be lead off a cliff. Hitler worked, not because he was sane, he worked because he promised a utopia to people that didn't exist.

 

 

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Loc wrote:Donte wrote:I

Loc wrote:

Donte wrote:

I don't watch TV as it melts your brain but how is it that 40 year old psychiatrist killed 12 and wounded over 30 and none of the other soldiers on the base could stop him?  It was left to police to shoot the killer down?  Don't these people have any training in war and firearms? 

Couple kids take guns to school and shoot unarmed teenagers in a cafeteria and they can't get that bodycount...  An army psychiatrist takes a couple handguns to a military base and it is fish in a barrel.

Just don't get it.

Well when the troops are on base they are unarmed. I'm guessing the MP's are armed but there probably weren't any around. All weapons are locked up in the armory so by time anyone could get any the shooting would probably be over. No one expects to be shot in their own base on their soil, so you can't blame them for being abit slow to react. When they're in combat they are fully armed and expecting to be shot. When you're on home soil you wouldn't be so alert.

My father(ever the open minded christian) was saying how stupid Americans are for allowing muslims in their army. I support religous freedom, otherwise we are no better than theist dictators. I think the main question is was this a 'jihad' shooting, or was he just sick of everything and snapped? I also have to wonder, if a christian snapped and went on a shooting spree would the story get half this amount of attention?

It would not shock me in the least, the more the lie is exposed that right wingers have sold that our military is the arm of right wing bible thumpers, where all others are mere guests, it would not suprise me that a Christian did the same thing. It would also not surprise me if this got panned of as not being related to belief.

HAVING SAID THAT, I do believe that this guy was merely a nut and Islam was the trigger. I think because of his own insecurities he snapped.  I think regardless of the trigger, he is no different than the McDonnalds killer.

If in any case, even unrelated, one can make the argument that there are separate issues going on. That may be true, much like people like to claim Hitler wasn't a Christian. Even if one was to concede that, it still does not change the belt buckles "God is with us" embossed on the Nazis uniforms.

The emotions for why somebody does something does not change that a weapon OF ANY KIND can be used. If you get mad enough you could use  a knife  or rope or gun to kill someone. So regardless of their mental state, the weapon used was religion. It may not be the cause, but it certainly contributed to the outcome.

I think vaset said it best that no label has a monopoly on insanity.

 

 

 

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Abu Lahab wrote:Loc wrote:I

Abu Lahab wrote:

Loc wrote:

I support religous freedom, otherwise we are no better than theist dictators. I think the main question is was this a 'jihad' shooting, or was he just sick of everything and snapped? I also have to wonder, if a christian snapped and went on a shooting spree would the story get half this amount of attention?

Your lack of understanding of islam is clearly why you see islam as no different from any other religion. Pick up the quran, read it, then read a few accompanying books that explain why it's a totalitarian cult not just a religion. You cannot be a good moslem AND a member of a democratic country.

 

I wouldn't say I regard it the same as any other religion. I do think islam to be the most dangerous belief in the world at the moment. And you could say the same thing about christianity.. no one could literally follow the bible and be a functioning member of society.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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I think many here who

I think many here who rightfully slam Islam still miss one major point. TIME!

The Middle East has not had the benefit of secular government and the concept of pluralism and enlightenment that has had a cap on Christianity for the past 200 years plus. I think it is a mistake to forget the barbarity of the Christian rule that was just as horrible as the fascism Islam displays in the east today.

NOW here is where the believers jump in and say, well Hitler and Stalin..........SPARE ME! They used the same authoritarian view the Christian Dark Ages did and that Islam in the east still uses today. The same authoritarian view Kim Jong Ill uses. Fascism doesn't require a label, it requires submission to a label, whatever that label is.

Atheists are capable of being fascists for the same reason theists are, because we are all human. Again, vaset said it best, no one has a monopoly on insanity. Insane is projecting yourself on others with force. It doesn't work when believers do it, and it wont work if atheists forget that we are human too.

Reason through demonstrating the credibility of a claim, combined with the empathy that we are all human, will allow us our differences and lead us toward more civility. Morality is not an invention of atheists or Muslims or Christians. It is part of our evolution. And all of us, if we are to switch positions, like to do it on our own without fear.  A position reached through autonomy is a REAL change, a position switched by force is nothing but lip service.

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"Your lack of understanding

"Your lack of understanding of islam is clearly why you see islam as no different from any other religion. Pick up the quran, read it, then read a few accompanying books that explain why it's a totalitarian cult not just a religion. You cannot be a good moslem AND a member of a democratic country."

Neither can you be a good christian and a member of a democracy. The only difference is that christians have gone through the "age of enlightenment" with most of the Western hemisphere. Moslems didn't go along for the ride. Ironically an argument can be made that they actually did have their own age, but then the crusades came and fucked it all up.

There is no inherent difference between any of the major religions. They are all dangerous cults.

Brian, I couldn't have said your response to my quote any better myself, and I've tried.

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Abu Lahab wrote:  Add to

Abu Lahab wrote:

 

 

Add to this the determination of the West to be multicultural against good sense and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

  Ah yes, multiculturalism in the West ( aka the cult of "Evil Europeans" )  .

  What a cool concept, bringing together people from disparate racial, religious, ethnic groups so they can learn to tolerate each other.

  My response is simply ( inhales deeply )  ....Hutus, Tutsis, Croats, Serbs, Jews, Palestinians, Sunnis, Shiites, Wahhabi, Catholics, Protestants, Atheists, Agnostics, Pantheists, Panentheists, Deists, Neo-Pagans, Crips, Bloods, Democrats, Republicans, Star Trek TOS, Star Trek TNG, Smokers, Non-smokers, Pro Life, Pro Choice, Paper, Plastic...

 

   Can't we all get along ? 


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Diversity is the only cure

Diversity is the only cure for racism, sexism, and other prejudices. I've lived in two of the four largest cities in Canada: Edmonton and Toronto. Neither had the divisions usually seen in large American cities (railroads, highways, etc.). The diversified populace was well mixed. I didn't even understand what racism was until I learned about it in school.
I later lived in smaller towns, predominantly white, and the difference is staggering. Racism abound. Gay haters, etc. I observe nations and communities with a large percentage of the population is of the same ethnicity, religion, and 'race', and to a T they are much less tolerant of differences.

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Vastet wrote:Diversity is

Vastet wrote:
Diversity is the only cure for racism, sexism, and other prejudices. I've lived in two of the four largest cities in Canada: Edmonton and Toronto. Neither had the divisions usually seen in large American cities (railroads, highways, etc.). The diversified populace was well mixed. I didn't even understand what racism was until I learned about it in school. I later lived in smaller towns, predominantly white, and the difference is staggering. Racism abound. Gay haters, etc. I observe nations and communities with a large percentage of the population is of the same ethnicity, religion, and 'race', and to a T they are much less tolerant of differences.

 

  Personally I hate conflict.  I much prefer peaceful relations between all humans.  Nevertheless the different groups of humanity that exist with all their f**king identity issues and /or agendas is nothing but a potential time bomb waiting to explode. We all know what that looks like don't we ? ( *hint,  watch the news. )

   The fact is differences do not bring people together.  

 

  I think multiculturism, although great in principle, is absolute madness when exposed to the dark reality of human nature with it's inherent tendency toward tribalism.  Putting certain groups together is simply a ticking time bomb.

  I much prefer the high school lunchroom principle.  Leave the social cliques to themselves and peace prevails.  Push them together against their will and you may not like the results.  How much evidence do you need to see that a malevolent response is not the exception with regard to human behavior.

  

 

I like the old 17'th century proverb:  "Good fences make good neighbors."

 

 


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When cliques are left alone,

When cliques are left alone, they simply become more cliquish. Ignorance breeds more ignorance. Living side by side shows that those people aren't as different as you thought they were. The most multicultural city in the world, Toronto, proves that all ethnicities can live in relative peace with each other.
Though FORCING people to do anything is generally a bad idea.

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Vastet wrote:  The most

Vastet wrote:
  The most multicultural city in the world, Toronto, proves that all ethnicities can live in relative peace with each other.

 

  So your positive experience in multicultural Toronto trumps a few thousand years of historical evidence indicating that humans will turn on each other over almost any divisive factor ?   Wow, I'm convinced !

   Note to Vastet, move out of your comfort zone.  Go to Watts in Los Angeles or Boyle Heights and walk around with your gleaming white skin.  You will experience an epiphany.


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Vastet wrote:When cliques

Vastet wrote:
When cliques are left alone, they simply become more cliquish. Ignorance breeds more ignorance. Living side by side shows that those people aren't as different as you thought they were. The most multicultural city in the world, Toronto, proves that all ethnicities can live in relative peace with each other. Though FORCING people to do anything is generally a bad idea.

People arn't clones of me! GOD DAMN IT! WHY AM I ALWAYS THE LAST ONE TO KNOW!

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Vastet

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Vastet wrote:
  The most multicultural city in the world, Toronto, proves that all ethnicities can live in relative peace with each other.

 

  So your positive experience in multicultural Toronto trumps a few thousand years of historical evidence indicating that humans will turn on each other over almost any divisive factor ?   Wow, I'm convinced !

   Note to Vastet, move out of your comfort zone.  Go to Watts in Los Angeles or Boyle Heights and walk around with your gleaming white skin.  You will experience an epiphany.

I think both of you are making it out to be either or when reality is most of the time neither. I don't think humans can be isolationists, especially not now since the world is smaller. But I do agree that you cant always force people together.

I do have empathy for a Jew or Christian living in Iran, not because I find their god claim to be credible. But I know what it is like to be looked at like I have a third eye and horns. It was because of my exposure to diversity that I have that empathy.

There was a story some time back of hikers who took the Ann Frank approach "Despite all this I do believe that humans are really good at heart" Or something to that affect. These hikers decided to travel in several Islamic states and fell of the face of the planet. So yea, utopias don't exist and if you are milky white and go into Watts you are taking a REAL risk being an outsider. BUT that doesn't mean that there ARE other places in the world, where that doesn't happen. So there will always be pockets of BOTH situations.

Even blacks of rival gangs wont travel into other gang territory. Just like it is dangerous for a Sunni Muslim to speak out publically in Iran. But in the west, there ARE far more places, where we DO co-exist without harming each other, and I think those places, can be examples.

 

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"So your positive experience

"So your positive experience in multicultural Toronto trumps a few thousand years of historical evidence indicating that humans will turn on each other over almost any divisive factor ?   Wow, I'm convinced!"
Evidence is in my favour, not yours. Historically and currently.

"Note to Vastet, move out of your comfortzone.  Go to Watts in Los Angeles or Boyle Heights and walk around with your gleaming white skin.  You will experience an epiphany."

Yeah, way to prove my point about cliques, bring up New York while you're at it. Those cities are more like multiple towns of different ethnicities. You don't have a black guy and a white guy and a asian guy all living next door to each other, you have concentrations of ethnicities. A group of white guys living across the highway from a group of asians across the railway from a group of black guys.

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Vastet wrote:"So your

Vastet wrote:
"So your positive experience in multicultural Toronto trumps a few thousand years of historical evidence indicating that humans will turn on each other over almost any divisive factor ?   Wow, I'm convinced!" Evidence is in my favour, not yours. Historically and currently. "Note to Vastet, move out of your comfortzone.  Go to Watts in Los Angeles or Boyle Heights and walk around with your gleaming white skin.  You will experience an epiphany." Yeah, way to prove my point about cliques, bring up New York while you're at it. Those cities are more like multiple towns of different ethnicities. You don't have a black guy and a white guy and a asian guy all living next door to each other, you have concentrations of ethnicities. A group of white guys living across the highway from a group of asians across the railway from a group of black guys.

  Hunh ? Dude, Watts and Boyle Heights are two different ethnic neighborhoods in the city of Los Angeles.     ....New York  ?

   Yes those neighborhoods are separate enclaves based upon ethnicity.  The various people group themselves along race or nationality because that's the way they have always chosen to live. ( y'know like China Town ? Those f**king Chinese racists !  )

  Believe it or not, in backwards America there are no laws that prevent people from choosing what neighborhood in which to buy a house. They are able to move about freely. The level of financial income is the decisive factor.  Btw, currently the hostility among Blacks and Hispanics in LA is rising because Hispanics are now moving into traditionally Black areas which is causing much friction and even a de facto race war among the street gangs. 

    WTF !!   ....tribalism on a voluntary basis ?   In the words of Sarah  Palin.."You bet'cha !"

   You speak so derisively of cliques and yet there is a Canadian clique ( We are so much more enlightened than those backwards Americans ! ) that exists on this forum.  Are you ready to give up on the concept of nationalism ( pride in one's country ) in the name of multiculturism ?   Seriously, are you suggesting that you do not feel a type of prejudice against the US ?

  Truthfully Vastet, if given the choice would you rather live in a neighborhood where all your neighbors are from Houston, Texas or where all your neighbors are from Toronto ? Are you saying it wouldn't matter to you ?

 

Canadians, you're the Master "Race" of the Western Hemisphere, eh ?

 

  (ps, all teasing aside, my girl friend has traveled to B.C. and she loved it and I wouldn't mind living there myself.  My whole rant has been in regard to what constitutes the bulk of typical human behavior regardless of those few, shining examples of rational co-existence. )

  Cheers.


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WE, AS A SPECIES, ALL flock

WE, AS A SPECIES, ALL flock to that which is familiar. That is a fact. But it is NOT impossible for overlap or empathy.

If there was a balanced ratio of believers of all sorts, and atheists, in say a convention, just like the high school lunch room, lets not lie to ourselves. How many here would hang out the thumper vs a fellow atheist. BUT if we were jocks or computer nerds and shared that with theists, we would also hang out with them for different reasons.

I have nothing in common as far as belief with my co-workers. HOWEVER, what we do share is a "family" type atmosphere/ We all have great senses of humor. We all know each other's work habits, and as far as I am concerned, they are the best work crew I have ever worked with.

So again, it is not either or. You cant force people to like each other, but at the same time, it is not impossible to find common ground with others.

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"  WTF !!   ....tribalism

"  WTF !!   ....tribalism on a voluntarybasis ?   In the words of Sarah  Palin.."You bet'cha !"  
It works here. Are you saying you're incapable of living beside other ethnicities?

"You speak so derisively of cliques and yet there is a Canadian clique ( We are so much more enlightenedthan those backwards Americans ! ) that exists on this forum."

Truth hurts? You could be in a similarly great country if you collectively wanted to, but history shows you don't. You fight against healthcare, you wander the world making enemies at every turn, you try and get evolution thrown out of schools, you force communities to form cliques for defense, shall I go on? Sounds pretty backwards to me.
Pro tip: You can also blame yourselves for the average Canadians attitude towards you. Maybe if you lost your self important attitudes and didn't collectively take swipes at Canada with lies and sheer stupidity, we'd not have grown to dislike you so much in the last 20 years.

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"Seriously, are you

"Seriously, are you suggesting that you do not feel a type of prejudiceagainst the US ?"

A rational prejudice, much like the one I have against religion. And much like religion, eliminating your stupidity would eliminate my prejudice.

"Truthfully Vastet, if given the choice would you rather live in a neighborhood where all your neighbors are from Houston, Texas or where all your neighbors are from Toronto ? Are you saying it wouldn't matter to you ?"

Texas is too hot for my liking. But if you refer to living beside a bunch of red necks, I already do. I do prefer the multiculturalism, yes. Less racism. It's a lot harder to go around demeaning black people when they're right beside you.

"Canadians, you're the Master "Race" of the Western Hemisphere, eh ?"

Ridiculous in too many ways to count.

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"  (ps, all teasing aside,

"  (ps, all teasing aside, my girl friend has traveled to B.C. and she lovedit and I wouldn't mind living there myself.  My whole rant has been in regard to what constitutes the bulk of typical human behavior regardless of those few, shining examples of rational co-existence. )  Cheers."

Well reading that post brought my ire out, and having read this I'm sorry I got so aggravated and adversarial. I'm rather sick of being your punching bag. It's like you living surrounded by christians telling you god does everything for you, and that you'll burn for not toeing the line. I don't mind in the slightest if people burn Canada on legitimate issues, but the crap coming from there usually involves some bs about us needing your military (We don't, and never have) or not being a real country (We are, as much as you) or kowtowing to a queen that's been nothing more than a figurehead for decades, even in Britain, let alone here.

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The first response got lost

The first response got lost somewhere along the way.

"Hunh ? Dude, Watts and Boyle Heights are two different ethnic neighborhoods in the city of Los Angeles.     ....New York"

I figured as much, so I mentioned a city with the same problems.

" Yes those neighborhoodsare separate enclaves based upon ethnicity.  The various people group themselves along race or nationality because that's the way they have always chosen to live. ( y'know like China Town ? Those f**king Chinese racists !  "

More like government intervention. Like slavery, as an example. Immigrants education being ignored for another.

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Vastet wrote:"  Well

Vastet wrote:
"  Well reading that post brought my ire out, and having read this I'm sorry I got so aggravated and adversarial. I'm rather sick of being your punching bag. .

  Dude, I don't think of you as my "punching bag".  Seriously, try not to take it so personally.  I may disagree with you, even vigorously at times, but I try to not let it get personal.  It's all good, man.

 

 Later.


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I wasn't referring to you

I wasn't referring to you specifically, but to Americans in general. For most of my life almost every time an American mentions Canada it's with a snarky attitude and a load of horseshit. Americans are directly responsible for the first part of my signature. Theists for the rest.
Edit, to add:
Often I can shrug it off, but the longer I experience it the less capable I am of doing so. And if I'm already in a mood, the gloves come off so fast it's like they weren't even there.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.