Why libertarianism FAILS.

ClockCat
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Why libertarianism FAILS.

 Quite simply, it ignores that everyone is part of a society and that they are responsible to eachother to make the society work.

 

The only libertarian utopia in the world right now is Somalia.

 

 

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


cj
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not always

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Clockcat, have you ever wondered the government does this stuff and private companies don't IS BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT MADE IT ILLEGAL FOR PRIVATE COMPANIES TO DO IT!

Well, no, not always.  There are few to no viable privately maintained municipal water systems.  Enron tried managing water systems and dropped them because they couldn't make a profit.  The city of Atlanta tried it, and as near as I can tell, they went back to government management.  Why?  Because everyone needs potable drinking water at an affordable rate.  The general rule of thumb is to plan on replacing your entire drinking water system every 20 years.  Not easy or inexpensive no matter what size the system.

I used to work for a county health district.  One of the services we provided was testing water samples for coli and e. coli.  I remember one guy having kinniptions about paying for his water to be tested.  It was $14 for the test.  He thought it should be free.  He paid taxes, after all.  We had just completed the county budget for next year.  I was able to inform him that our water testing lab was 100% fee supported, including wages and benefits for two workers and the state licensing fee.  (No, county agencies are not exempt from state or federal fees, they have to pay, too.)  Not one penny of his taxes went to support the water lab at the health district.  If he wanted, I could give him the name, address, and phone number of the private lab in town that would test his sample for $16.  Or, if he wanted to pay for overnight shipping, he could send his sample to the state lab or to an out of town private lab.  He was pissed, his partner laughed, and he paid the $14. 

It is vastly oversimplified to say that the government has made it illegal for private companies to do all those services.  What the government usually does is provide services at the request of the taxpayers.  The FDA was set up by the federal government at the request of people who had read The Jungle, then insisted congress investigate the allegations (they found everything to be true except they could not verify a person winding up in the sausage), and then once congress released its report, the taxpayers insisted on the regulations.  And it was thought federal oversight was better than state oversight, because people didn't want to feel safe in their own state, but then have to research regulations in each state they may subsequently visit.  Okay, it is safe to eat in Nevada, is it safe to eat in California?  What about Florida?  What about foods processed in Nevada, or Florida, or where ever?  Do they have decent food processing regulations there?

I agree that the FDA is not doing a fantastic job, but that is largely the fault of reducing staff, not of inherent problems with the idea of regulating food and drugs.  Coca-Cola really did use to have cocaine in it.  There really used to be added arsenic in canned peas to make them greener in color.  Corporations will not do what is right, they will do what they can get away with to sell more product for lower costs.  This is not bad, until the line of health and safety is crossed.  Lawsuits will fix that you say?  Fine, before or after how many people have died?  And for many industries, lawsuits are now prohibited by law.  Thanks to the lobbyists.

Wikipedia wrote:

The Kjeldahl and Dumas methods used to test for protein levels fail to distinguish between nitrogen in melamine and naturally occurring in amino acids, allowing the protein levels to be falsified. Introduced into milk, it can help conceal its fraudulent dilution with water.[10] Melamine adulteration of food products also made headlines when pet food was recalled in Europe and the U.S. in 2007.

Lawsuits haven't stopped this fraudulent practice, neither have Chinese laws.  What makes you think it would not be practiced in the US except for the FDA?

I can go on with each agency mentioned.  But this is probably enough for you to tell me you don't believe me.  Fine.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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ClockCat
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:o

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

ClockCat wrote:
 This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy. 
   Then the power goes out at about 6pm and the hydro company takes 4 hours to fix it because it happened after their regular work hours and workers complain to their unions about overtime, and then when they do find the source of the problem they stand around eating sandwiches because it's their right to take 30 minute breaks for every 10 minutes of actual work. Oh and when my city wants to put in a private wind mill of clean energy they won't let the evil greedy private company built because our smelly polluting coal plant is "good enough" and we need to determine if wind mills are safer than nuclear power plants or coal plants! Think of the children!   
 Really? This happens your average day? Amazing. You must live in a terrible place. Considering consequences is such a terrible thing! Oh, and a windmill contractor that might launch blades into housing too close to it is something that shouldn't be investigated until after it happens. Right? Ensuring public safety isn't a concern when you could have profits! 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

ClockCat wrote:
I then took a shower in the clean water provided by a municipal water utility. 
   When the pipes rusted and burst, the city determined it would cost millions of dollars and take years. Then they hired a private company that fixed it for a few thousand and in a month.
 Wow, what terrible infrastructure you must have! And somehow, cost is amazingly cheaper for a private company. Its funny how that works, because the water WAs sold in this state and the private companies instead of maintaining it largely abandon it and practice stalling fixing problems. Nearly half the state has to boil their water because it is unsanitary. The water out of my tap smells terrible.   

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

ClockCat wrote:
After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. 
   Then the FCC decided that it'll be a good idea to determine what I can and can't watch and hear.
 Really? You really must live in an awful place. Deregulation of the FCC is the reason why there are only 4 major companies controlling all the information in America. Before that, there were many smaller companies. It limited the amount of networks one corporation could own to promote diversity. The Bush administration changed that, so now television is extremely limited and diversity is mostly gone. Some of my favorite shows also dissapeared when SciFi was bought.  

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

ClockCat wrote:
 I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.   
   As I overpay for it, and the local farmers go out of business because the government subsidizes rich farmers.  The FDA then takes 10 to 20 years to approve a life saving drug where as a private, independent labotory could have done it quicker and cheaper. 
 All farmers of subsidized products can get subsidies. Rich or poor. Local farmers are still in abundance in this country. Maybe you just live in a bad place.  Even with the FDA some drugs slip through that harm and kill people. Pharma companies have always been able to find someone to do studies that make their drugs seem okay. Even the homeopathic ones have "private independant laboratory" approval. But I suppose dangerous or useless drugs marketed as helpful and kill people without even having to list side effects or potential hazards is a good thing! I wouldn't want to live where you are. It sounds awful.  

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

ClockCat wrote:
  At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the U.S. Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank. 
  As more than half of the price of gas is on taxes and the government taxes ethonal producers to hell so we HAVE to use petrol fuel.  
 Oh my that sounds terrible! Which might be true if it wasn't for the huge subsidy on ethenol production in this country. You must live in a bad place if they think that no quality control on fuel or vehicles is a good thing. Aside from dangerously bad designed cars without consideration for the customers driving it, improper fuel quality can destroy your car and cause accidents if it has too many contaminants. Weather advisories also don't sound all that profitable. Especially not if they are free! Why, I would imagine if there was a private company that used their own equipment to detect the weather, they would charge a pretty penny for the service. 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

ClockCat wrote:
On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school. 
   The school which is severly underfunded and undersupplied. As I wait for my package from UPS, for a week, I sign for the package sent to me yesterday via Fed-Ex 
 Well, your school sounds like it needs to be better funded. I never had that problem. Maybe you live in a bad area and the school is only funding its way through property taxes? I for one, would not enjoy living in a society where a basic level of education was not given to people. I think the public is on average ignorant enough as it is. Also, you were waiting for a package from a private shipping company for a week, so you had it sent to you from another private shipping company? Well, okay. I'm not sure what your point is, though. I usually have a bad time with both UPS and FEDEX. USPS seems to be the only shipper that gets things to me on time. But maybe you live in a strange area not serviced by the USPS. Like another country.  

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

ClockCat wrote:
After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and Fire Marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.   
  But then I have to read a 100 page manual to use a ladder or wrench, and thanks to the labour union I can sue the boss for discrimination if I don't get a promotion because I'm a woman.
I have not heard of that in any job I've been in. Also, can you really sue for that without any evidence? I'm pretty sure no court would take you up on that without overwhelming proof that you have been passed over BECAUSE you are a woman. Which still does happen in some places here, unfortunately. Enjoy your glass ceiling though!       
Quote:
Clockcat, have you ever wondered the government does this stuff and private companies don't IS BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT MADE IT ILLEGAL FOR PRIVATE COMPANIES TO DO IT! 
 Have they? Because it isn't illegal here. In fact, the loss of some of the things I said recently are due to people screaming to privatize everything. It tends to destroy whatever it touches when it is related to public goods though. My internet company is terrible because they are trying to make profits off people (which is what they are designed to do). My cellphone company is terrible because they are designed to maximize profits off people (because that is what they are designed to do). The water is terrible because it was privatized and the German company is trying to make profits (which is what they are designed to do). They cut at the public good for their own profits and the people have no say in the matter. Because it isn't something they can vote out. It isn't something they get a choice over. It is something they are forced to endure with no voice. Get sick from the water? Too bad. You can try to file a lawsuit but the company has a protection claus that says you have to pay for the court costs for BOTH sides and the damages you can get are capped. That is some nice tort reform, Bob. It really helped us out. The companies have no one to answer to and just play the field to make their shareholders happy while the public suffers.   But you hate government because it can't do anything right. So it is okay is corporations sacrifice the public for cash. Government would have been worse, because your ideology says it is. Even if that government is publicly owned and operated. Even if it allows the people using the service to directly influence what priorities are.

 

Investments in the community are a bad thing because it isn't making someone rich! Like how health care is 1/6th of the nation's GDP. It doesn't matter if a significant portion of society cannot get access to it. You have insurance? We will deny your claims. It has happened to me, my mother, and my father. You don't get treatment, too bad! We don't think you need it. Sure your doctor says you do, but we decided you don't.

 

Think of the profits!

 

 

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


Kapkao
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The real problem with

The real problem with Libertarianism... is that I simply don't fucking want ANY government telling me what to do............. So it's either... anarcho-syndicalism (I don't care for helping complete strangers, whose motives in life could be malicious towards me or those I actually care about) or free market libertarianism (at least I know what to expect from others in a "dog-eat-dog" world)

I refuse to uphold a 'society'  that:

  1. punishes me for being too individualistic. as well as having SOME measure of intelligence beyond the 'norm' (particularly in it's system of education)
  2. doesn't like Atheists, especially the 'faithless since an early age'
  3. seems to encourage discipline and being 'polite' in the strangest (most hypocritical) of ways
  4. allows some people to indulge themselves freely, while others perish horribly and needlessly (hey! we're a fetus-killing society so it must be ok, right?)
  5. condemns people simply for using drugs that they had pushed on them... either by life circumstances, or by hypercapitalistic assholes
  6. tells me "i'm not enough" simply because I spend most of my time in front of a LCD monitor... it's more rewarding than interacting with a DUMBASS majority of puritans, ANYWAYS
  7. NOBODY was ever there to pull me out of the hole I found myself almost buried in, amongst a multitude of personal failures

So I'm left with two extremes... participate in socializing a world economy without ANY government, or... "act to your own benefit without government getting in the way"

Both systems of politics/economics have their own glaring faults, in theory... a mix of the two, however... might work. (however unstable or combustible such a combination would be)

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


Cpt_pineapple
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Clockcat and cj, the

Clockcat and cj, the argument isn't that everything private companies is great or everything the government does is bad.

 

The point is monopolies are bad and competition is good. Seeing as government programs are by definition monopolies this is bad.

 

Such as if that company is the ONLY company to provide Clockcat with water that's bad, if they another company offered water, they would have to compete and that's how you would get superiour quality.

 

If your cell phone service is so shitty why not switch cell phone companies to a better one?

 

It's not like the windmill company is going to build it in the middle of school so the blades shred the children, it's in the open field the point is phobia of private companies is preventing progress.

 

And yes, Clock, America has government run education and one of the worst in the world. So being government run does not guarentee quality

 

 


ClockCat
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Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Clockcat and cj, the argument isn't that everything private companies is great or everything the government does is bad.

 

The point is monopolies are bad and competition is good. Seeing as government programs are by definition monopolies this is bad.

Except government programs, in a government ran by the people, is controlled by the public. Why is that bad? You have failed to make a case for it. You simply throw assumptions out for your ideology.

 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Such as if that company is the ONLY company to provide Clockcat with water that's bad, if they another company offered water, they would have to compete and that's how you would get superiour quality.

 

And how pray tell, do you propose another company would bother to lay down infrastructure that the first company wouldn't even lay down? If it isn't profitable private industry won't bother with it. Public goods are not profitable-unless they take advantage of the public and hold them at ransom for basic societal needs. 

 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

If your cell phone service is so shitty why not switch cell phone companies to a better one?

 

There is no better one. The few options are all shitty. There will be no competition to their shittiness, because investment and risk are too high. They know that they are safe. It has become a necessity in society, and they hold the public at ransom for basic communications. This is what happened with AT&T before and the government intervened to break it up into the bells. Which ate eachother, and became at&t in 20 years. So back where it started.

 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

It's not like the windmill company is going to build it in the middle of school so the blades shred the children, it's in the open field the point is phobia of private companies is preventing progress.

  

Do you know that? Do you just trust them with no regulation or safety oversight? You are aware companies will look to maximize profits at the expense of everything else, right?

 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

And yes, Clock, America has government run education and one of the worst in the world. So being government run does not guarentee quality 

Did I say it guaranteed quality automatically by being publicly offered? I don't remember that. I remember saying I wouldn't want to live in a society where a base level of education wasn't offered. That would be terrible.

 

Being publicly owned means the failure of public schools in this country is- and here is the shocker- the public's fault for not making education a priority. Which it isn't in many public school districts.

 

I know of many of them in this country that consider school to be about football, rather than intellectual advancement. Many of them do not prepare students for higher education. 

 

Not to mention the failures of people that do not even complete their basic education and graduate.

 

Privatizing public goods damages them. I have, and continually see this on a day to day basis. Look at Arizona. They have even gone as far as to sell their capital building and rent it from someone else. Even their government buildings are privately owned now. They continue to cut taxes and privatize, and now they are closing down all their state parks. The ones that bring in revenue. 

 

http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2010/03/18/20100318arizona-state-park-system.html

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


cj
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This is much more of a reasoned discussion

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Clockcat and cj, the argument isn't that everything private companies is great or everything the government does is bad.

That is a good start.  I have worked for a privately owned manufacturer, a defense contractor manufacturer, a community college, a county health district, a privately owned telephone survey company, and a privately owned engineering and architecture firm and when I was much younger, an assortment of restaurants.  And you know, there isn't a nickle difference between any of them.

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

The point is monopolies are bad and competition is good. Seeing as government programs are by definition monopolies this is bad.

Generally, I agree that monopolies are bad.  But for government services?  Let's take restaurant inspections.  The sanitarian inspecting a restaurant may not always catch every problem, but how would you introduce competition?  Restaurant A was inspected by inspection companies 1, 2, and 3.  Restaurant A had to pay all three companies for the privilege of being declared "safe eat there".  Customers 37Z have a subscription with inspection company 2, and so receive their newsletter as to Restaurant A being safe.  How does this save anyone any money?  The restaurant pays extra for extra inspections, the customers pay extra for their food and for a subscription to an inspection company.  Seems like the only ones who benefit are the inspection companies.

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Such as if that company is the ONLY company to provide Clockcat with water that's bad, if they another company offered water, they would have to compete and that's how you would get superiour quality.

Please research "natural monopolies", a common economic term.  Water systems are a natural monopoly because there is only one delivery system and one waste system.  How do you compete when you only have one set of water pipes to any one home?  Install multiple sets of water pipes?  "Company XYZ is just costing too much, let's add water pipes that will deliver Company ABC water."  And what about water sources?  Shall we have people just drilling wells in their back yards?  That is fine if you are living on 10 or more acres, it would be silly for any town of any size.  I strongly recommend that book on Dr. John Snow and the last cholera epidemic in London.  One of the points is that every block of houses just about had a shallow well servicing those houses.  In the late 1800s, in a city the size of London.  Think about it.

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

If your cell phone service is so shitty why not switch cell phone companies to a better one?

Fine, that works for cell phones.

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

It's not like the windmill company is going to build it in the middle of school so the blades shred the children, it's in the open field the point is phobia of private companies is preventing progress.

Windmills - as I see it, it isn't phobia of private companies, it is phobia of new technology.  People don't understand the technology and so they are needlessly afraid of it.  There are some lovely wind farms on the ridges next to the Columbia River in Oregon and Washington.  You get some great views along I-84.

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

And yes, Clock, America has government run education and one of the worst in the world. So being government run does not guarentee quality

Nope, it doesn't.  But for many children, public education is their only option.  Maybe it isn't right for people to have children if they can't afford private school, but that doesn't stop them from having children.  And I feel we should take a stab at educating those children.  Some of them, like me and my husband and sons, will rise above the lousy education we had in public schools and turn out to be pretty intelligent, decent, hard working, tax paying neighbors of all the private school people.

Please also note, the corollary is also true, just because it is privately run does not guarantee quality.  None of these conditions predetermine lousiness either.

Please note, yes, I am unemployed currently.  Yes, I am also paying taxes - income taxes on the unemployment benefits, property taxes on my house, registration and air quality testing fees on my vehicles, and various other taxes as well.  It may be different in other parts of the world, but here, I pay taxes.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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