Hmmm France rules Scientology a Fraud...

illicitizen
illicitizen's picture
Posts: 29
Joined: 2009-10-21
User is offlineOffline
Hmmm France rules Scientology a Fraud...

 What no Fraud-love for the papacy?

 

first portion of story wrote:

PARIS — A Paris court convicted the Church of Scientology of fraud and fined it more than euro600,000 ($900,000) on Tuesday but stopped short of banning the group as prosecutors had demanded.

The group's French branch immediately announced it would appeal the verdict.

The court convicted the Church of Scientology's French office, its library and six of its leaders of organized fraud. Investigators said the group pressured members into paying large sums of money for questionable financial gain and used "commercial harassment" against recruits.

The group was fined euro400,000 ($600,000) and the library euro200,000. Four of the leaders were given suspended sentences of between 10 months and two years. The other two were given fines of euro1,000 and euro2,000.

However, the court did not order the Church of Scientology to shut down, ruling that it would be likely to continue its activities anyway "outside any legal framework."

Prosecutors had urged that the group be dissolved in France and fined euro2 million ($3 million).

The verdict is "an Inquisition of modern times," said Scientology spokeswoman Agnes Bron, referring to efforts to rout out heretics of the Roman Catholic Church in centuries past.

The head of an association that helps victims of sects, Catherine Picard, called the verdict "intelligent."

"Scientology can no longer hide behind freedom of conscience," she said.

 


Jeffrick
High Level DonorRational VIP!SuperfanGold Member
Jeffrick's picture
Posts: 2446
Joined: 2008-03-25
User is offlineOffline
huuuuummmmmmm!

 

 

 

       They should try Germany where the prosicuters office refused to indict on poetic belief and theology princiles.  The Germans simply called it what it is,  --  A for profit organization  --  ,  ergo not a religion.  Good ole'Germnay because of their Nazi past can  prosicute on "brain washing"  issues.     Scientology has never tried to appeal that court decision,  they know they would lose on brain washing.

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


illicitizen
illicitizen's picture
Posts: 29
Joined: 2009-10-21
User is offlineOffline
 How is this any different

 How is this any different than any of the "accepted" religions?


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3945
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
illicitizen wrote: How is

illicitizen wrote:
 How is this any different than any of the "accepted" religions?

They're all wrong, and most of them try to take your money in some way or another. But, I think Scientology is particularly annoying because it has a level of centralization, exclusiveness, and sophisticated brain-washing that few other religions rival.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 4197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
first portion of story

first portion of story wrote:

The verdict is "an Inquisition of modern times," said Scientology spokeswoman Agnes Bron, referring to efforts to rout out heretics of the Roman Catholic Church in centuries past.

ha!  inquisition, my ass!  this is the good old french battle of the militant laity versus any kind of religion that tries to muscle its way into the social sphere that's been going on since the 18th century.  the enlightened french successfully tamed the catholic church in their country and now they're working on the muslims and their headscarves in public schools, so i say kudos that scientology is also in the guillotine now.

if the scientologists want to conjure up a villainous ghost in this situation, robespierre is far more appropriate than torquemada.  but not everyone would find that analogy unflattering... 

vive la revolucion!  may your blasphemy against everything never end, dear france!

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
I love France. They have

I love France. They have work to do, but they're years ahead of this side of the world.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Herk (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
I love France, too. And

I love France, too. And goldurnit, now I love 'em even MORE.  Smiling

Vive la France!


illicitizen
illicitizen's picture
Posts: 29
Joined: 2009-10-21
User is offlineOffline
but...but...wait

 ZOMG 1st Lutheran Lady Priest or what not.

BERLIN — Germany's Lutheran Church has elected a woman to lead the nation's Protestants for the first time in its history.

Margot Kaessmann was overwhelmingly voted into the church's top position on Wednesday.

The 51-year-old bishop holds a doctorate in theology and has four grown children. She is one of only two bishops in Germany's Protestant church.

She was ordained in 1985 and has held many offices within the church. Kaessmann is viewed as being politically active and media savvy.

 

Wow that is SOME progress. Oh wait, no you still believe in the jewish  zombie messiah. FAIL. It is funny to see them wiping off the deck chairs, but the iceberg is still on a collision course. The more the organized religions attempt to 'moderate' the more desperate they come off. 

I'm the illicit citizen, ILLICITIZEN as it were.
http://illicitizen.com


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15748
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:I love France.

Vastet wrote:
I love France. They have work to do, but they're years ahead of this side of the world.

AND they are behind us too. They also cowtow to political correctness. They had a clothing add banned because it depicted the last supper with late teen models of both sexes in various states of dress(NO NUDITY). Because Christians got offended.

Instead of doing the "free market" boycott, they used government as a weapon.

In all this rightful challenge of absurd claims we must never lose sight as a species there will always be people who claim absurd things. There is only so much we can do to minimize the harm absurdities can cause. We must not be fascist ourselves in this challenge.

Forced submission does not gain a convert to one's position. It doesn't work for believers and it wont work for atheists.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Only Russia and China (to

Only Russia and China (to condense the list to world powers) say fuck you to political correctness. Everyone else buys the lie.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15748
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:Only Russia and

Vastet wrote:
Only Russia and China (to condense the list to world powers) say fuck you to political correctness. Everyone else buys the lie.

Who is buying the lie? Not me.

But if you think they treat their citizens well compared to the west, I'd disagree with that. The cost of providing to their citizens comes with the cost of silencing dissent.

I'd rather be hungry and free with the ability to challenge my government when I think it has gotten it wrong, than to always fear what I can or cannot say to it.

I doubt you or I would be aloud to be as open about their dirty secrets if we lived there as compared to when our governments fuck up here how free we are to complain about it.

If you think Big Brother is a good idea go live there. I think you'd be quite disappointed.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
"Who is buying the lie? Not

"Who is buying the lie? Not me."

But your government does, as does mine. That's what I meant.

"But if you think they treat their citizens well compared to the west, I'd disagree with that."

I didn't mean it that way. I meant only that they, to my knowledge, do not kow-tow to political correctness the way the West does. Which means they have that advantage over us. It hardly can be linked to human rights abuses and the like, which is an advantage we hold over them.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15748
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:"Who is buying

Vastet wrote:
"Who is buying the lie? Not me." But your government does, as does mine. That's what I meant. "But if you think they treat their citizens well compared to the west, I'd disagree with that." I didn't mean it that way. I meant only that they, to my knowledge, do not kow-tow to political correctness the way the West does. Which means they have that advantage over us. It hardly can be linked to human rights abuses and the like, which is an advantage we hold over them.

You don't understand. For the Chinese government is is not about not bowing to political correctness. It is about silencing any challenge of power. If we were living in that country and complaining about human rights abuses that would be seen by the government as dissent.

DO NOT confuse the two.


 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
It doesn't matter what it's

It doesn't matter what it's about. The point is they don't do it.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


illicitizen
illicitizen's picture
Posts: 29
Joined: 2009-10-21
User is offlineOffline
I get it

 I can see what Vastet is on about. Sino-Russia does not kowtow to PC. They also have very little value on individual human rights. So yeah, why would they? A country that can rule you a dissident, execute you and sell your organs to rich folks is not going to be concerned about offending your sensibilities. Heh. 

The thing I find so unusual about the whole PC thing, is where I live PC usually means "you be tolerant of the religious folks intolerance of you." They have freedoms, opinions, rights, whereas absent a god I do not. Like, oh you don't have a god so your views on religion are also non-existent. And don't let's talk about LGBT issues. 

 

 

I'm the illicit citizen, ILLICITIZEN as it were.
http://illicitizen.com


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 4197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
WHOA WHOA WHOA!  wtf?  did

WHOA WHOA WHOA!  wtf?  did we drift back into the cold war here?  what is all this shit about russia?

i'll admit, they have a huge economic problem, an even bigger housing problem, an enormous organized crime problem, and their government is rife with corruption (then again, so is almost every post-communist government), but since when did they start having political prisoners again?  i'm pretty sure they've come a long way since the NKVD and the gulag. 

while there are visa requirements, russians and non-russians can travel to and from russia freely, and anyone who wants to protest anything is free to do so (at least, it seems so, since i've seen several anti-government rallies on slovak news over the last few years).  i've certainly never heard tales of government oppression from the russian students i've met, nor the american missionaries who are friends of my family who lived there for a year.

of course, one could rule the situation in chechnya, for example, as a human rights violation (and some have), but, right or wrong, that had to do with preventing territorial secession, not targeting an ideology (though the attempted secession was ideologically motivated).  still, this is a far cry from the iron curtain, five-year plans, and neighbors informing on neighbors. 

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 4127
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
iwbiek wrote:WHOA WHOA

iwbiek wrote:

WHOA WHOA WHOA!  wtf?  did we drift back into the cold war here?  what is all this shit about russia?

i'll admit, they have a huge economic problem, an even bigger housing problem, an enormous organized crime problem, and their government is rife with corruption (then again, so is almost every post-communist government), but since when did they start having political prisoners again?  i'm pretty sure they've come a long way since the NKVD and the gulag. 

while there are visa requirements, russians and non-russians can travel to and from russia freely, and anyone who wants to protest anything is free to do so (at least, it seems so, since i've seen several anti-government rallies on slovak news over the last few years).  i've certainly never heard tales of government oppression from the russian students i've met, nor the american missionaries who are friends of my family who lived there for a year.

of course, one could rule the situation in chechnya, for example, as a human rights violation (and some have), but, right or wrong, that had to do with preventing territorial secession, not targeting an ideology (though the attempted secession was ideologically motivated).  still, this is a far cry from the iron curtain, five-year plans, and neighbors informing on neighbors. 

   Speaking of dissent in Russia didn't former chess prodigy Garry Kasparov try to form an anti-Putin political faction called "The Other Russia" ?  I just scanned the wiki and although he encountered no stalinist type of resistance I believe a former high ranking KGB official suggested that Kasparov might, as some of his predecessors, come to an unfortunate end ?

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 4127
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
iwbiek wrote:first portion

iwbiek wrote:

first portion of story wrote:

The verdict is "an Inquisition of modern times," said Scientology spokeswoman Agnes Bron, referring to efforts to rout out heretics of the Roman Catholic Church in centuries past.

ha!  inquisition, my ass!  this is the good old french battle of the militant laity versus any kind of religion that tries to muscle its way into the social sphere that's been going on since the 18th century.  the enlightened french successfully tamed the catholic church in their country and now they're working on the muslims and their headscarves in public schools, so i say kudos that scientology is also in the guillotine now.

if the scientologists want to conjure up a villainous ghost in this situation, robespierre is far more appropriate than torquemada.  but not everyone would find that analogy unflattering... 

vive la revolucion!  may your blasphemy against everything never end, dear france!

   Yes, I would love for the French government to go all beserker against the Muslims but I believe that I saw somewhere that France contains the largest Muslim community compared to all other Western societies. They number in the millions ?  Also, in the recent past wasn't there some major long-term rioting by Muslim youths over some perceived grievance, similar in scope to the Los Angeles riots of the early 90's ?

  If the French were going to regain the upper hand against these religious freaks they may have waited too long.   More power to them though ( let the French bring back the guillotine...the muslims weren't the only group that used decapitation as capital punishment. )

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
Herk wrote:I love France,

Herk wrote:
I love France, too. And goldurnit, now I love 'em even MORE. Smiling

 

Vive la France!

 

Well, this causes me to have to rethink my stand on France.

 

I have managed to not buy a single French product since the Reagan administration. Their air space is not so special that we should not fly over it when we want to kill Libyans. I was not expecting that they would actually do any sane thing.

 

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Yes, I would love for the French government to go all beserker against the Muslims but I believe that I saw somewhere that France contains the largest Muslim community compared to all other Western societies.

 

Well, they did say that they would. Shortly after 9/11 Jacques Chirac announced that any terrorist attack on France would be met with a nuclear retaliation. So the terrorists focused on England and Spain for the follow up.

 

Had the US done the nuclear deed, the world would have been a different place. Instead of questioning the current wars, the big question would have been whether we ought to have nuked the cities that we did. However, that would not have happened before the whole world had given us a pass on the matter for at least several weeks.

 

Mark my words: On the morning of 9/11, there were people close to the president who were saying that Baghdad, Tehran and Kabul should become symbols of just why the US should not be attacked.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 4197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
ProzacDeathWish wrote:  

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

   Speaking of dissent in Russia didn't former chess prodigy Garry Kasparov try to form an anti-Putin political faction called "The Other Russia" ?  I just scanned the wiki and although he encountered no stalinist type of resistance I believe a former high ranking KGB official suggested that Kasparov might, as some of his predecessors, come to an unfortunate end ?

well, i don't know about that, but it sounds like hearsay to me, with no way of substantiating it.  anyhow, even in the most liberal western governments you're going to have advisors suggesting draconian methods every now and then, and occasionally they will be implemented.  shit, look at guantanamo.

my point still stands that at this time we can no longer speak of russia as a country that enshrines the suppression of individual liberties, regardless of its many infrastructural problems.  we certainly can't put it on a par with china.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


illicitizen
illicitizen's picture
Posts: 29
Joined: 2009-10-21
User is offlineOffline
On the surface I agree. And

On the surface I agree. And I am no expert.

However:

Alexander Litvinenko

Natalya Estemirova

Anna Politkovskaya

Zarema Sadulayeva...etc...

does not = a Gulag. But then I'd say that Hu Jintao is probably not as bad as Mao.

...anyway, they have some ways to go. Not saying the US of A doesn't.

 

 

I'm the illicit citizen, ILLICITIZEN as it were.
http://illicitizen.com


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 4197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
illicitizen wrote:On the

illicitizen wrote:

On the surface I agree. And I am no expert.

However:

Alexander Litvinenko

Natalya Estemirova

Anna Politkovskaya

Zarema Sadulayeva...etc...

does not = a Gulag. But then I'd say that Hu Jintao is probably not as bad as Mao.

...anyway, they have some ways to go. Not saying the US of A doesn't.

 

 

actually, off-topic, i just read an interesting book called mao: a reinterpretation by lee feigon.  it's a rather positive look at mao's career, which automatically turns many people off, but i think it's good, if for nothing more than the fact that in the last 30 years mao scholarship has drifted overwhelmingly to the anti- side, especially with li zhisui's memoir and then jung chang and jon halliday's detailed but viciously biased study. 

lee doesn't excuse the terrible human loss under mao, but he doesn't dwell on it either.  nor should he have to, since there are buttloads of very thick books dedicated to it already.  instead, he argues that toward the end of his life mao tried to pull the country away from its soviet-style bureaucratic government toward a more western-friendly stance (hence his meetings with kissinger and nixon). 

his most interesting chapter is the one on the cultural revolution, in which he argues that it was ultimately positive, in that it challenged the chinese people to question and even rebel against the party apparatus.  he argues that this in fact led to china's drift toward capitalism, and that in the '80s deng xiaoping (who was ostracized during the cultural revolution) actually led a stalinist reaction against the effects of the cultural revolution (hence tiananmen), which by this time were too strong to stop.  feigon contends that it's only the serendipitous fact that deng happened to rule china at the same time as the effects of mao's later policies were beginning to manifest themselves that led to his being hailed by both modern chinese intellectuals and the west as a great reformer.

it's fairly thin and a quick read (about 160 pages, i think).  though it takes the form of a brief analytical biography, i would definitely read a thorough balanced biography of mao (philip short's, for example) before reading this, since it is short on details.  as a bit of an amateur mao scholar, however, i'll say i didn't recognize any factual errors in feigon's work, though the jury is still out on his analysis.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


illicitizen
illicitizen's picture
Posts: 29
Joined: 2009-10-21
User is offlineOffline
but...

So, we can all agree then that Pol Pot was still a d!ck, right?

Sorry, thanks for the info. I'm actually quite a history nerd.

I'm the illicit citizen, ILLICITIZEN as it were.
http://illicitizen.com