Religion and taxes

Cpt_pineapple
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Religion and taxes

I'm curious, if religious organizations are exempt from taxes, than why did Kent Hovind go to jail for tax evasion?

 

 

 


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:o

 The public (creationist) theme park, and his merchandising among other things, and siphoning off money to himself in small quantities to try and avoid notice. In addition, obstructing investigations into what he was doing.

 

He claimed he was only making $50,000/year to the IRS, when he was making deposits to multiple bank accounts that added up to over 2 million/year.

 

 

It had nothing to do with a church or donations. It had to do with him selling things and not reporting the money he made.

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they got 'em .

 

 

 

           The cheif moonie went the same way for 18 months.    It  is called personal income, which is taxable  vs.  the church revenue which is tax free.

 

 

           In short the church might be tax free but your pay check is not tax free.  The IRS does not recognize anyone working for free,  it violates the 14th amendment proviso's against slavery.

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Brian37
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Our tax code is convoluted

Our tax code is convoluted and worse than the bible.

Hovind's problem wasn't that he was selling bullshit. I like candy myself. I simply don't like it when someone says they will pay me and they dont.

Hovind's problem was the same as Madoff's. HE LIED AND DIDN'T KEEP HIS WORD.

I don't like our tax code. I don't mind higher taxes per sey, but I hate how it can potentially allow government to pry into your life, rich or poor, left or right.

I don't believe in tax exempt charities. If giving is done then it is giving. If you expect something in return, then it is a loan, not a gift.

Our government needs to be paid for. Police, fire, education , social security and military are all things we need. BUT our code is way too complicated and arbitrary.

 

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Ciarin
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Brian37 wrote:I don't

Brian37 wrote:

I don't believe in tax exempt charities. If giving is done then it is giving. If you expect something in return, then it is a loan, not a gift.

 

No. Charities being tax exempt is a good thing. They're not making a profit, they're providing a service that the gov't can't or won't provide(or they supplement a gov't social service). If charities had to pay taxes on the money donated to them, especially large charities, you'd have a lot of the money going to the gov't that would've been used for the needy(or research for diseases, or environmental clean-up, etc). That's a lot of wasted money, and less people would donate since they know part of their money is going to pay taxes(which they've already paid when they earned the money in the first place).

 

Nothing is expected in return for giving, aside from making sure the money goes where it's most needed, which isn't the gov't.

 

Also, people who get gifts don't have to pay taxes on it, and for under a certain amount($13K I think) the donor doesn't have to pay taxes on it either. So why tax charities, since all they get are donations/gifts?

 


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Ciarin wrote: They're not

Ciarin wrote:

 They're not making a profit, they're providing a service that the gov't can't or won't provide(or they supplement a gov't social service).

Most non-profits are scams. Churches and charities only do the minimum amount necessary to be perceived as being humanitarian. They are for the profit of the founders and the people who run them.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:Ciarin

EXC wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

 They're not making a profit, they're providing a service that the gov't can't or won't provide(or they supplement a gov't social service).

Most non-profits are scams. Churches and charities only do the minimum amount necessary to be perceived as being humanitarian. They are for the profit of the founders and the people who run them.

 These are some inaccurate claims, unless you can provide some evidence to back them up.

 


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Ciarin wrote:Brian37 wrote:I

Ciarin wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

I don't believe in tax exempt charities. If giving is done then it is giving. If you expect something in return, then it is a loan, not a gift.

 

No. Charities being tax exempt is a good thing. They're not making a profit, they're providing a service that the gov't can't or won't provide(or they supplement a gov't social service). If charities had to pay taxes on the money donated to them, especially large charities, you'd have a lot of the money going to the gov't that would've been used for the needy(or research for diseases, or environmental clean-up, etc). That's a lot of wasted money, and less people would donate since they know part of their money is going to pay taxes(which they've already paid when they earned the money in the first place).

 

Nothing is expected in return for giving, aside from making sure the money goes where it's most needed, which isn't the gov't.

 

Also, people who get gifts don't have to pay taxes on it, and for under a certain amount($13K I think) the donor doesn't have to pay taxes on it either. So why tax charities, since all they get are donations/gifts?

 

 

THAT IS NOT THE POINT!

When anyone gives to a charity and claims it on their taxes, RELIGIOUS OR NOT, they EXPECT PART OF THE MONEY BACK. Sure it doesn't come from the people they give it to, BUT it is a loan that the tax payers give back to you even if in part. PROFIT has nothing to do with it.

If I loan you $100 and say, I want 50 back, IT IS STILL A LOAN. If I give it to you, then I should not expect anything back.

A loan can be given without profit. You simply pay back the amount without intrest, but it is still a loan. GOVERNMENT getting involved in charity IS A BAD IDEA! Charity is A GOOD IDEA.

But the problem becomes that it becomes payola for religious institutions who say "If you don't give our charities funding or those who donate to us tax exemption we will not vote for you"

It allows for lobying. It allows for pulpit politics.

WHEREAS if I give you money without any strings and don't expect it back there is no chance that I could hold it over your head or spy on you to make sure you qualify.

I don't care if you expect something back from your neighbor or your government, if you do IT IS NOT A GIFT! It is a loan.

I have never filed tax credits for anything I donated. To do so would be to ask for a pat on the back. Doing the right thing means doing it even when people are not patting you on the back.

Our current system is the same payola for charity as it is for Wall Street, and all it amounts to is legalized bribery.

Franklin once said, "When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
-- Benjamin Franklin, letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780,

 

 

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Brian37 wrote: THAT IS NOT

Brian37 wrote:

 

THAT IS NOT THE POINT!

 

Actually it's exactly the point.

 

Quote:

When anyone gives to a charity and claims it on their taxes, RELIGIOUS OR NOT, they EXPECT PART OF THE MONEY BACK.

Uh... how the fuck do you figure that? All the money I've donated to charity I've never gotten back. I CAN USE CAPS TOO CAUSE IT HELP ME MAKE A POINT.

 

Quote:

Sure it doesn't come from the people they give it to, BUT it is a loan that the tax payers give back to you even if in part. PROFIT has nothing to do with it.

 

You are either confused on what a loan is, or you're confused on what a donation is, or both. Nobody gets money back from tax payers when they donate. Otherwise, you tax payers owe me about a thousand, so pay up. With interest.

 

Quote:

If I loan you $100 and say, I want 50 back, IT IS STILL A LOAN. If I give it to you, then I should not expect anything back.

 

A donation isn't a loan. You don't get any money back from a donation.

 

Quote:

A loan can be given without profit. You simply pay back the amount without intrest, but it is still a loan. GOVERNMENT getting involved in charity IS A BAD IDEA! Charity is A GOOD IDEA.

 

Wrong. If you give a loan to someone, it's not tax exempt. Only gifts under $13k are tax exempt. The taxes on the money you'd be loaning are already paid by witholding tax(or if you're self-employed you pay the tax quarterly).

 

Quote:

But the problem becomes that it becomes payola for religious institutions who say "If you don't give our charities funding or those who donate to us tax exemption we will not vote for you"

It allows for lobying. It allows for pulpit politics.

 

I agree. I do not think religious groups should get tax exemption. Only non-proft charities.

 

Quote:

WHEREAS if I give you money without any strings and don't expect it back there is no chance that I could hold it over your head or spy on you to make sure you qualify.

 

I don't even know what you're talking about here....

 

Quote:

I don't care if you expect something back from your neighbor or your government, if you do IT IS NOT A GIFT! It is a loan.

 

DONATING TO A CHARITY ISN'T A LOAN. AREN'T CAPS SO AWESOME?

 

Quote:

I have never filed tax credits for anything I donated. To do so would be to ask for a pat on the back. Doing the right thing means doing it even when people are not patting you on the back.

 

I haven't either, because I donate about $50 or less per charity and it doesn't effect my tax filings to claim them. Although I could if I wanted, there's just no point. Just like I don't claim sales tax on stuff I buy out of state, cause it's less than $50 and wouldn't make a difference.

 

Quote:

Our current system is the same payola for charity as it is for Wal Street, and all it amounts to is legalized bribrary.

 

That would be "bribery", and I think you're totally confused on charities and tax exemption.

 

Quote:

Franklin once said, "When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
-- Benjamin Franklin, letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780,

 

Franklin also donated to, and set up, a few charities.

 

Geez, you couldn't be more wrong if your name was Wrongy Kent Hovind Wrongenstein.


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Quote:Uh... how the fuck do

Quote:
Uh... how the fuck do you figure that? All the money I've donated to charity I've never gotten back. I CAN USE CAPS TOO CAUSE IT HELP ME MAKE A POINT.

Did you file for tax credit? DON'T LIE!

If you did, then part of the money you WOULD have given to the government YOU kept by paying less.

It is the same as loaning someone $100 and only asking for 50 back.

Calling it a rebate STILL does not change that you loaned someone money so that YOU didn't have to give the government more money. The only difference is that the people you loaned it to are not the people giving you the rebate, the tax payers are.

You are caught up in word games.

When you give IT IS CALLED GIVING! And you do it WITHOUT expecting to pay the government less or expect to get back more because of something YOU GAVE. Anything else is a LOAN!

THE KEY IS THAT A GIFT comes without expectation. As soon as you ask for something in return, such as paying less on your taxes, or getting more on your tax return, you are shifting a financial burden to someone else. A GIFT is taking the full burden of the cost without passing it on to others.

Tax credits, be they for the rich or religious are nothing but legalized bribery.

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Brian37 wrote:Did you file

Brian37 wrote:

Did you file for tax credit? DON'T LIE!

 

Before I continue replying to your post, I want you to go back and actually read what I posted all the way through, rather than skimming. Then when you're done reading my post, you can edit your post to reflect the new information.

 

I'll wait.

 

ps. you don't get tax credit for donating, it's a tax deduction. You get tax credit if you're poor, or you have qualifying dependants.


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 Quote:Tax credits, be they

 

Quote:
Tax credits, be they for the rich or religious are nothing but legalized bribery

*Ahem*

Brian? A charitable donation tax credit is a program offered by some governments as a form of incentive to encourage people to pay into charities. Yes, some of your money is used to provide this incentive; however, I imagine if you were asked whether or not you begrudge whatever small amount of money of yours is used to feed people your country has stolen so much from or to keep homeless people from becoming desperate, you'd probably say no?

Perhaps you question the need for the incentive? If that's the case, perhaps you'd be interested to know the ratio of people who actually contribute to charity in western countries: about 1 in 50 people (and that's being pretty generous). 

 

Furthermore, it is almost never the wealthiest income earners who donate to charity, so framing it as them extorting the system is just plain wrong. 

 

It would be nice if the world was filled with people who don't mind sharing what they have with others, but that's not what we have. We have a planet full of treasure-hoarding assholes like EXC and Jormungander who not only want the moon but want it to themselves. So, the government offers out little treats to see if they can get just a few more people to donate. 

 

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
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Ciarin
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Cpt_pineapple wrote:I'm

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I'm curious, if religious organizations are exempt from taxes, than why did Kent Hovind go to jail for tax evasion?

 

Did you think Kent Hovind was a religious organization with tax exemption?


Brian37
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Ciarin wrote:Brian37

Ciarin wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 

THAT IS NOT THE POINT!

 

Actually it's exactly the point.

 

Quote:

When anyone gives to a charity and claims it on their taxes, RELIGIOUS OR NOT, they EXPECT PART OF THE MONEY BACK.

Uh... how the fuck do you figure that? All the money I've donated to charity I've never gotten back. I CAN USE CAPS TOO CAUSE IT HELP ME MAKE A POINT.

 

Quote:

Sure it doesn't come from the people they give it to, BUT it is a loan that the tax payers give back to you even if in part. PROFIT has nothing to do with it.

 

You are either confused on what a loan is, or you're confused on what a donation is, or both. Nobody gets money back from tax payers when they donate. Otherwise, you tax payers owe me about a thousand, so pay up. With interest.

 

Quote:

If I loan you $100 and say, I want 50 back, IT IS STILL A LOAN. If I give it to you, then I should not expect anything back.

 

A donation isn't a loan. You don't get any money back from a donation.

 

Quote:

A loan can be given without profit. You simply pay back the amount without intrest, but it is still a loan. GOVERNMENT getting involved in charity IS A BAD IDEA! Charity is A GOOD IDEA.

 

Wrong. If you give a loan to someone, it's not tax exempt. Only gifts under $13k are tax exempt. The taxes on the money you'd be loaning are already paid by witholding tax(or if you're self-employed you pay the tax quarterly).

 

Quote:

But the problem becomes that it becomes payola for religious institutions who say "If you don't give our charities funding or those who donate to us tax exemption we will not vote for you"

It allows for lobying. It allows for pulpit politics.

 

I agree. I do not think religious groups should get tax exemption. Only non-proft charities.

 

Quote:

WHEREAS if I give you money without any strings and don't expect it back there is no chance that I could hold it over your head or spy on you to make sure you qualify.

 

I don't even know what you're talking about here....

 

Quote:

I don't care if you expect something back from your neighbor or your government, if you do IT IS NOT A GIFT! It is a loan.

 

DONATING TO A CHARITY ISN'T A LOAN. AREN'T CAPS SO AWESOME?

 

Quote:

I have never filed tax credits for anything I donated. To do so would be to ask for a pat on the back. Doing the right thing means doing it even when people are not patting you on the back.

 

I haven't either, because I donate about $50 or less per charity and it doesn't effect my tax filings to claim them. Although I could if I wanted, there's just no point. Just like I don't claim sales tax on stuff I buy out of state, cause it's less than $50 and wouldn't make a difference.

 

Quote:

Our current system is the same payola for charity as it is for Wal Street, and all it amounts to is legalized bribrary.

 

That would be "bribery", and I think you're totally confused on charities and tax exemption.

 

Quote:

Franklin once said, "When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
-- Benjamin Franklin, letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780,

 

Franklin also donated to, and set up, a few charities.

 

Geez, you couldn't be more wrong if your name was Wrongy Kent Hovind Wrongenstein.

I am sure he did. But he was also a politician and does not change that if he asked to pay less in taxes for his charity, he too would be shifting the cost onto others. I didn't say he wasn't a politician. I said that taking a tax break FOR ANY REASON cannot be called a gift. Because that means YOU asking for it means you expect something MEANING A BREAK.

Wrong about what? That giving means not expecting anything back. Dont call it a gift then.

Quote:
That would be "bribery", and I think you're totally confused on charities and tax exemption.

No, charities are GIFTS. If something is a gift you dont ask for a pat on the back, or a break, or money back.

"Bribery" is "if you do this for me, I will vote for you". If you allow me to pay less on my taxes I will vote for you. I am not saying Ben didn't do that. I am saying don't lie about what you are doing.

You don't file at the same rate Wall Mart or NYC Archdiocese does so of course your filings don't matter. You assume that powerful people dont use this tax scam to keep power.

Why do you think big companies donate to charity? Not because they care about the exploding pay gap. They do it because it is good PR. If they really cared they wouldn't ask for a tax break. Same with megga churches.

 

 

 

 

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Ciarin
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Brian37 wrote:I am sure he

Brian37 wrote:

I am sure he did. But he was also a politician and does not change that if he asked to pay less in taxes for his charity, he too would be shifting the cost onto others. I didn't say he wasn't a politician. I said that taking a tax break FOR ANY REASON cannot be called a gift. Because that means YOU asking for it means you expect something MEANING A BREAK.

 

So I guess children, parents with children, poor people, people with disabilities, people who take care of invalids or the disabled, people who pay for someone else's education and/or medical care, people who recieve or give gifts, etc don't deserve a break either?

 

I'm glad you're not running the IRS.


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Ciarin wrote: These are

Ciarin wrote:

 These are some inaccurate claims, unless you can provide some evidence to back them up.

 

Well besides all the fake charities there are,

 

Let's look at the 'real' charities:

Local Chapters Kept 9/11 Money Instead Of Sending It In For Victims

49 Charged In Katrina Fraud Scam

Al Qaeda Skimming Charity Money

http://maguireinc.typepad.com/blog/united_way/

They have huge overheads and the deceive people about their overhead and administrative costs.

 

 

You have to understand all humans are selfish hedonist creatures, so the person donating usually doesn't care too much about how it's spent. They just want to feel good about giving. Then they person taking the charity money can always justify skimming the money, because morals are always relative.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


Ciarin
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EXC wrote:Ciarin

EXC wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

 These are some inaccurate claims, unless you can provide some evidence to back them up.

 

Well besides all the fake charities there are,

 

Let's look at the 'real' charities:

Local Chapters Kept 9/11 Money Instead Of Sending It In For Victims

49 Charged In Katrina Fraud Scam

Al Qaeda Skimming Charity Money

http://maguireinc.typepad.com/blog/united_way/

They have huge overheads and the deceive people about their overhead and administrative costs.

 

 

You have to understand all humans are selfish hedonist creatures, so the person donating usually doesn't care too much about how it's spent. They just want to feel good about giving. Then they person taking the charity money can always justify skimming the money, because morals are always relative.

 

 

This isn't evidence that most charities are scams. Please show me some evidence of your previous claims.


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Quote:I'm curious, if

Quote:
I'm curious, if religious organizations are exempt from taxes, than why did Kent Hovind go to jail for tax evasion?

It's a comical story, actually.

Neither Hovind nor his employees actually considered 'Creation Science Evangelism' to be a church, and Hovind never bothered to attempt to get tax exemption status for it. Instead, he simply puchased the services of a snake oil salesman named Glen Stoll, and assumed he could beat the tax system with loopholes.

What's funnier (well, funnier if you dislike 'Dr' Hovind) is that he would not have likely had to do any time in prison at all if he could've just controlled himself for a few moments, admitted his mistake and paid the tax debts he owed. But no, of course not. His ego being what it is, he instead opted the batshit insane route, claiming (among other things):

 - The IRS was 'harassing' him

 - He was not a citizen of the United States

 - God owned all of his assets, not him.

 - He had no employees; they were all 'missionaries' who did not have salaries (bald-faced lie)

 - He could not speak English (a facepalmingly bad attempt at avoiding signing documents / acknowledging charges)

This mess resulted in a full investigation of Hovind's properties and holdings, which further revealed that he had no permits or licenses of any sort for any of his businesses. Oops.

Investigators found, among other things, obvious signs of destruction of financial records, large stockpiles of weapons and ammunition, large bundles of cash, evidence that Hovind had been smurfing employee payments (I have no idea what that even means, but it sounds hilariously bad) and, of course, a large body of material suggesting that Hovind was engaged in sedition.

 

Frankly, the tax evasion charges were going way easy on the man. Considering how bad he made himself look and what incriminating evidence was turned up against him, he could've been put away for much longer.

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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:I

 Smurfing is making many small financial transactions to hide large transfers of money.


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:I'm

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I'm curious, if religious organizations are exempt from taxes, than why did Kent Hovind go to jail for tax evasion?

 

 

 

    Actually Hovind's totally innocent.  Nevertheless it was an atheist conspiracy to use sham accusations and shut Hovind up once and for all.  His scientific claims were so utterly convincing that he was beginning to undermine mainstream theories about the origin of the universe.  If he was allowed to continue he would have likely caused a mass defection among scientists to the Creation Science camp. He had to be stopped by any means possible.

   That's our dirty secret, but now you know.

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.