International Blasphemy Day and Baptists

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International Blasphemy Day and Baptists

Another post from the Southern Baptists. This is interesting because it shows baptists are noticing the growing number of atheists. What do youthink?

 

www.albertmohler.com

 

International Blasphemy Day.

 

Ready for a day to honor blasphemy?  According to press reports, September 30 is set as the observance of the first-ever International Blasphemy Day. This could be interesting.

The choice of September 30 looks back to that date in the year 2005, when the publication of cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad's face sparked outcry and protests in the Muslim world and threats toward the West.

Now, as Religion News Service reports, the Center for Inquiry is planning a day of observances to mark the occasion.  Ron Lindsay, a lawyer who serves as president of the Council for Inquiry International, said that the day was part of the group's effort to expose religious beliefs to investigation.  In the words of the RNS report, the goal is "to expose all religious beliefs to the same level of inquiry, discussion and criticism to which other areas of intellectual interest are subjected."

Here is one feature of the day as planned by CFI:

You've never seen Jesus like this before: dripping red nail polish around the nails in his feet and hands, an irreverent riff on the crucifixion wounds. The provocative title of the painting: "Jesus Does His Nails."  Blasphemous? Absolutely. Deliberately provocative? You bet.

 

Artist Dana Ellyn told RNS that she is an "agnostic atheist" whose purpose is to be provocative.  "My point is not to offend, but I realize it can offend, because religion is such a polarizing topic," she said.

 

Among other things, CFI International also plans a "blasphemy contest," "in which participants are invited to submit phrases, poems, or statements that would be, or have been, considered blasphemous." Winners are to receive a t-shirt and mug.

Bet you can't wait to see those.

More seriously, participants are also to be encouraged to take up the "Blasphemy Challenge" in which individuals register their blasphemy in the face of Mark 3:29.  In that verse, Jesus warns, "whoever blasphemes the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" [ESV].  Those who take up the "Blasphemy Challenge" record video submissions which must include the words, "I deny the Holy Spirit."

The Blasphemy Day events are certain to draw media attention, which is no doubt the whole point of the observance.  That is how a group like CFI can gain publicity for itself and its cause.

How should Christians respond?

First, take no offense. Refuse to play into the game plan of those sponsoring International Blasphemy Day.  The Lord Jesus Christ was and is despised and rejected of men.  Our Lord bore the scorn heaped upon him by his enemies. Christianity is not an honor religion. Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are not commanded to defend his honor, but to be willing to share in the scorn directed to him. Is the servant greater than his master?

Islam is an honor religion, and the major forces in the world today seeking to criminalize blasphemy are Islamic. The riots on the streets of many nations in protest of the Danish cartoons do represent what faithful Muslims believe their religion requires them to do.  Not so for Christianity. We must be those who take to the streets with the Gospel -- not with a defense of our honor or the honor of our Lord.  When Christians forget this, we lose our Gospel witness.  The history of the church includes far too many instances of this loss. We dare not add another.

Second, mourn the blasphemy. The warning of Jesus is clear -- blasphemy has eternal consequences.  The worst form of blasphemy is the refusal to hear and believe the Gospel.  For that sin there can be no forgiveness. We must mourn the blasphemy, not because honor is at stake, but because souls are at stake with eternal consequences.  God will ultimately and perfectly defend his honor.  On that day, there will be no escape for unrepentant blasphemers.

Third, see this observance for what it really is -- an unintended testimony to the existence of God and the foolishness of those who deny Him.  The sheer foolishness of a blasphemy contest with t-shirts and mugs betrays the lunacy of it all.  They can do no better than this?  One testimony to the power of God is the fact that his self-declared enemies come off as so childish and manic. The heathen rage and God sees the foolish grasshoppers.

International Blasphemy Day will come and go. Take note, ponder its meaning . . . and skip the t-shirt.


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Well, I will be handing out

Well, I will be handing out pamphlets. Specifically this one (print on both sides then cut and fold):

http://www.normalbobsmith.com/free/flyers/pamphlet_cbf_download.pdf

Here is the author reading it:

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


nigelTheBold
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Quote:Third, see this

Quote:

Third, see this observance for what it really is -- an unintended testimony to the existence of God and the foolishness of those who deny Him.

Uhm.... say what? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever!

I really wish idiots like this would come to grips with the concept that we don't think their deity exists. Our motives in mockery are exactly what they appear to be: a testimonial to the ridiculousness of their beliefs.

This is a definite case of "someone said something stupid on the internetz!"

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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Observer wrote:On that day,

Observer wrote:

On that day, there will be no escape for unrepentant blasphemers.

Why doesn't he just say it ? "Eternal torture ! Moohahahahaaa !"


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I also deny Ouiji boards,

I also deny Ouiji boards, vampires, and comets coming to pick you up to take you to another planet. The Jesus claim is no different to me.

Their claims of magical births and deaths are as special to me as claims of Allah are to them.

No one person, political leader, religious leader, nation or label deserves a pedestal. To submit to such thinking is self induced brain death and the quickest way to become a lemming.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Just wanted to

Just wanted to clarify....OBSERVER did not write that quote....I copied and pasted the article. I didn't write it Smiling.


eXnihilO
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.

nigelTheBold wrote:

Quote:

Third, see this observance for what it really is -- an unintended testimony to the existence of God and the foolishness of those who deny Him.

Uhm.... say what? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever!

Nigel, I wanted to clear up the confusion.

As Bible believing Christians, we believe God when He says that men like yourself are actively and intentionally suppressing the truth of His existence due to your unrighteousness. (Romans Chapter 1)

Therefore, your claims of atheism are just another delusion caused by your sinful nature and as Christians, we believe that you actually do believe in God, but your sinful nature causes you to hate Him and therefore go online and pretend He doesn't exist. That is what the Bible teaches, that's why he said it. You are actually validating the Bible on your day of Blasphemy. If you actually believe the Bible, there are no atheists. The better term for atheist would by 'Crypto-theist.'

Grace and peace,

 

Speaking Truth in love,

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"we believe that you

"we believe that you actually do believe in God"

Amusing. WE believe that somewhere deep down you really know there is no god, but you're so desperate to find meaning in existence that you'll kill people and force your invisible friends upon them, failing to realise that you can never accomplish your goals, because noone really believes in gods.

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eXnihilO wrote:nigelTheBold

eXnihilO wrote:

nigelTheBold wrote:

Quote:

Third, see this observance for what it really is -- an unintended testimony to the existence of God and the foolishness of those who deny Him.

Uhm.... say what? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever!

Nigel, I wanted to clear up the confusion.

As Bible believing Christians, we believe God when He says that men like yourself are actively and intentionally suppressing the truth of His existence due to your unrighteousness. (Romans Chapter 1)

Therefore, your claims of atheism are just another delusion caused by your sinful nature and as Christians, we believe that you actually do believe in God, but your sinful nature causes you to hate Him and therefore go online and pretend He doesn't exist. That is what the Bible teaches, that's why he said it. You are actually validating the Bible on your day of Blasphemy. If you actually believe the Bible, there are no atheists. The better term for atheist would by 'Crypto-theist.'

Grace and peace,

 

The whole entire theory of god is ridiculous. There is no truth of existence, it's just what you believe to be true. But not me or other free-thinking and practical people like me.. I'm exstatic that there is actually an Annual Blasphemy day.. I think that the idea of it is great.. Wooo-hoo!!

"There is no God higher than truth." -Mahatma Ghandi


eXnihilO
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  @VastetThe difference is

 

 

@Vastet

The difference is that I appeal to the highest possible standard of authority, reality, and truth: the very word of God.

You appeal to your own unfounded reasoning ability that has to admit that my God exists in order to justify itself objectively.

@Malhalla

You claim that 'There is no truth of existence'

Your statement is self-defeating my friend. If it's true that there is no truth of existence then what you said can't possibly be true...

Also... you are open-minded about everything except the existence of God. Why is that? It's because you are a rebel against your Creator. If you really were fully open-minded you would clearly see that God is responsible for all of this.

All the best,
 

eX

Speaking Truth in love,

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Vastet
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"The difference is that I

"The difference is that I appeal to the highest possible standard of authority, reality, and truth: the very word of God."

False. There is no such authority. Reality defines itself. As does truth.
What you do is take stories written by men in the dark ages and try to apply them to reality. Such attempts are doomed to fail.

I simply observe these attempts and laugh at your self delusions.

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k

Vastet wrote:
"The difference is that I appeal to the highest possible standard of authority, reality, and truth: the very word of God." False. There is no such authority. Reality defines itself. As does truth. What you do is take stories written by men in the dark ages and try to apply them to reality. Such attempts are doomed to fail. I simply observe these attempts and laugh at your self delusions.

The problem here is that you lost the argument as soon as you started typing. You are appealing to an abstract, objective authority that only my worldview can account for, namely logic. You must admit that God exists in order to justify your use of coherent argumentation, game over.

 

eX

Speaking Truth in love,

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Vastet
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"The problem here is that

"The problem here is that you lost the argument as soon as you started typing."

Projection: The favourite weapon of theism, despite its total lack of success.

"You are appealing to an abstract, objective authority that only my worldview can account for, namely logic."

Your attempts to claim logic as supernatural are most amusing.

"You must admit that God exists in order to justify your use of coherent argumentation, game over."

You must admit that god doesn't exist in order to justify your use of coherent argumentation. Game over.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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the 7th wonder

What an amazing display of acrobatic question dodging. I'll be content it you stop replying now as your last post demonstrated that you have no answer to my points.

 

Thanks for that.

Speaking Truth in love,

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Theist tactic #2: When

Theist tactic #2: When projection fails, accuse the opponent of dodging a question that was never asked, with the occasional dose of ad hominem.

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eXnihilO

eXnihilO wrote:

 

 

@Vastet

The difference is that I appeal to the highest possible standard of authority, reality, and truth: the very word of God.

You appeal to your own unfounded reasoning ability that has to admit that my God exists in order to justify itself objectively.

@Malhalla

You claim that 'There is no truth of existence'

Your statement is self-defeating my friend. If it's true that there is no truth of existence then what you said can't possibly be true...

Also... you are open-minded about everything except the existence of God. Why is that? It's because you are a rebel against your Creator. If you really were fully open-minded you would clearly see that God is responsible for all of this.

All the best,
 

eX

You just like all christians do, took my words out of context to use for your own implications. What I meant was there is no truth of existence of God. My "Creator" is mother earth who has so painfully taken a second seat to your phony imaginary friend that she is neglected as the true and wonderful creator. You christians talk about god all the time but you worship a false one instead of the one that you live on.. Our mother, Earth.. Try taking care of her for a change instead of putting it in GOd's hands like you guys like to say so much.. And next time you quote someone then quote them for what they really said instead of what you want to hear..

"There is no God higher than truth." -Mahatma Ghandi


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...

@Vastet

And yet there is still this strange sense of joy that you still avoid the point I made which buried your arguments.

@Malhalla

There would have to be context involved for me to take it out of... You made four standalone statements and I quoted one of them... hardly out of context my friend. And If you want to pretend you weren't trying to say truth is relative, I would refer you to the rest of your sentence which CLARIFIED what you meant:

"it's just what you believe to be true."

It seems very clear to me that you were promoting relativism, correct me if I am wrong... if it's only belief in God that you consider to be relative then I would just say you are relatively wrong about your belief in God when compared to what is true.

You are using the atheist defense mechanism known as equivocation.

Please correct me if i'm wrong, I know you will.

Beside, an atheist has never been wrong or misspoke about anything ... ever.

I hope you see that the beauty in nature is even more amazing then you think...

In love,

 

Speaking Truth in love,

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eXnihilO wrote:What an

eXnihilO wrote:

What an amazing display of acrobatic question dodging. 

You're projecting.

- Brian Sapient


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  "Grace and peace" 

  "Grace and peace"  ..."in love"   ..."all the best"  ...."my friend"  etc.

 

    Please dispense with the contrived empathy and just make the arguments you wish to make against us. 

    Thank you "brother."

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I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

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Sapient wrote:You're

Sapient wrote:

You're projecting.

 

You too?

Not sure where you get off with the amature pyscho-analysis either Smiling

Isn't that a subliminal ad hom anyways?

Speaking Truth in love,

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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"And yet there is still this

"And yet there is still this strange sense of joy that you still avoid the point I made which buried your arguments."

And I get a strange sense of joy at how easy theists like yourself bury themselves. I've thrown you around in three different topics, four soon, and it just gets easier and easier. You're like a chew toy. You might never see the flaws and incoherency you espouse, but the vast majority of those who see it will shake their heads at your total and complete failure.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


eXnihilO
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...

I'm presenting a coherent and defensible postion while at the same time exposing that yours is unfounded.

If your only response is something other than a rebuttal to my position I think it's fair to say you do not have one.

Have a good day.

Speaking Truth in love,

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Vastet
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"I'm presenting a coherent

"I'm presenting a coherent and defensible postion while at the same time exposing that yours is unfounded."

Quite the opposite.

"If your only response is something other than a rebuttal to my position I think it's fair to say you do not have one."

I've obliterated your arguments and this is the best you can respond with. Don't be too disheartened, you're all the same. You're just the latest notch on my belt. There are hundreds more. You theists are so predictable.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


eXnihilO
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Vastet wrote:... I've

Vastet wrote:
... I've obliterated your arguments...

You really haven't. Please prove this by explaining my argument and then quoting something that you have already said that refuted it in which I did not expose your folly in the very next post. By these terms you have done nothing in the way of argument obliterating.

I'm interested in knowing if you have even understood my argument at all, so by explaining it to me you have the opportunity to prove yourself.

I'll take a refusal or dodging of my challenge as a concession as it is very reasonable.

Thanks,

Speaking Truth in love,

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Atheistextremist
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Hey eXni

 

What's that symbol on your avatar?

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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I thought this, too.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

  "Grace and peace"  ..."in love"   ..."all the best"  ...."my friend"  etc.

 

    Please dispense with the contrived empathy and just make the arguments you wish to make against us. 

    Thank you "brother."

 

If you think we all deserve to burn in hell, lay off the platitudes. It really is nauseating.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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I hope to love the hell out

I hope to love the hell out of you buddy.

 

The symbol is Greek for 'Chi Rho fo Sho'

Or, just Chi Rho - it's a Christogram.

I added the fo Sho for flavor though.

Speaking Truth in love,

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Mmmmm

 

Well Exni - religion might be weird as hell but it does have the cool symbols. Shame there's no symbol for atheism. 

As for loving us, rejoice in the fact the only people here who believe you were born evil and deserve death and/or eternal torment are your own guys. 

Everyone else on the site, no matter how cross they get when trying to apple bob into your alternative reality, just thinks you're an ordinary human being.

How about that? For the first time in your life, the people around you accept you just as you are - no confessions, no sacrifices and no smoky retribution.

So come on in. The water is fine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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"You really haven't."

"You really haven't."

I really have.

"Please prove this by explaining my argument and then quoting something that you have already said that refuted it in which I did not expose your folly in the very next post. By these terms you have done nothing in the way of argument obliterating. I'm interested in knowing if you have even understood my argument at all, so by explaining it to me you have the opportunity to prove yourself.I'll take a refusal or dodging of my challenge as a concession as it is very reasonable."

Right back at you. I'm not going to waste my time repeating myself for someone who clearly doesn't understand the subject matter. If you accurately portray my argument, then I'll know you actually understand it. If you don't, you acknowledge my victory and the lack of substance from your argument. And almost everyone reading it (exception of theists like yourself) will do the same. Smiling

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...

Vast, I'm disappointed.

I gave you the opportunity to put me in my place once and for all and you have only displayed your amazing bullet-dodging skills once again. I think your abilities have surpassed even Neo himself at this point...

The ball remains in your court my friend.

 

Speaking Truth in love,

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yep

@Atheistextremist

"Well Exni - religion might be weird as hell but it does have the cool symbols."

We are meant to appreciate all things God so I am not surprised.

It is our enmity towards God that keeps up from appreciating creation the same way and/or giving God the glory for all that we do.

 

Speaking Truth in love,

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Vastet
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eXnihilO wrote:Vast, I'm

eXnihilO wrote:

Vast, I'm disappointed.

I gave you the opportunity to put me in my place once and for all and you have only displayed your amazing bullet-dodging skills once again. I think your abilities have surpassed even Neo himself at this point...

The ball remains in your court my friend.

 

How unsurprising. I win. Lets review.

"we believe that you actually do believe in God"

Naked and unsupported assertion, challenged. Response:

"The difference is that I appeal to the highest possible standard of authority, reality, and truth: the very word of God.You appeal to your own unfounded reasoning ability that has to admit that my God exists in order to justify itself objectively."

Circular argument. You're using the bible to justify god to justify logic, and god to justify the bible. The second fallacy is to use logic to debase logic for being logical. If logic is capable of being false, then USING logic to assail it is not necessarily true!

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Vastet
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By decrediting logic, you

By decrediting logic, you debase your own argument! Response:

"The problem here is that you lost the argument as soon as you started typing."

Ad hominem, I laugh.

"You are appealing to an abstract, objective authority that only my worldview can account for, namely logic. You must admit that God exists in order to justify your use of coherent argumentation, game over."

Repetition. Rejected. Response:

"What an amazing display of acrobatic question dodging. I'll be content it you stop replying now as your last post demonstrated that you have no answer to my points."

*Scans thread*
I don't see any questions. At all. Yet you claim I've dodged one. LOL. Challenged. No response to challenge.

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Vastet
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Response: "You really

Response:

"You really haven't. Please prove this by explaining my argument and then quoting something that you have already said that refuted it in which I did not expose your folly in the very next post. By these terms you have done nothing in the way of argument obliterating."

Theist surrenders. He is incapable of, and has failed to see the fallacious reasoning he employs, and in sheer desperation tries to suggest that there is something left for him to argue. Victory: Mine.

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.

Admittedly, I was speaking to ‘point’ dodging not question dodging, my mistake. Hence the ambiguous use of a bullet-dodging analogy.

You have still failed to explain what my argument is.

Circular reasoning does not immediately mean something is wrong…

Person 1: He is mad right now.

Person 2: How do you know?

Person 1: Well, because he is really angry.

This is circular reasoning but is very obviously not incorrect.

The irony here is that you are using logic to accuse me of a logical fallacy without first telling me why logic can be trusted from your worldview. Logic cannot be independently verified apart from God. Logic itself is verified circularly by using the laws of logic. As stated, this doesn’t mean that logic is wrong, but it does show that you are adhering to a standard of reality and truth that is circularly validated which is what you are faulting me for doing.

God validates logic externally, you can try to use logic to argue against the God who makes it viable, but the point here is that I have a worldview that employs the use of logic in a meaningful way and substantiates it’s existence and you still need to account for it.

Logic is very much real and very valid, but only because God made it so.  Your position starts at logic. Mine justifies the use of logic. And since you can’t account for logic I don’t expect you to consider Christians reasonable…

Speaking Truth in love,

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"You have still failed to

"You have still failed to explain what my argument is."

Then put it point by point, because I believe I have.

"Circular reasoning does not immediately mean something is wrong…"

Then your argument against my position could be wrong.

"The irony here is that you are using logic to accuse me of a logical fallacy without first telling me why logic can be trusted from your worldview."

The irony in your counter argument is that if logic can be wrong, you are in error by using it to prove itself wrong. If it cannot be wrong, then your argument is false in premise.

"God validates logic externally, you can try to use logic to argue against the God who makes it viable, but the point here is that I have a worldview that employs the use of logic in a meaningful way and substantiates it’s existence and you still need to account for it."

I don't need to account for it, because it quite obviously works. I don't need to know why the universe exists in order to know it exists.

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Vastet
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I don't need to know why

I don't need to know why logic works, I just need to know that it works. I don't see why you or anyone else needs to put a why there at all. Isn't it enough that it is? That we look at how things work, and use that gained knowledge to learn more? If your god exists, will we not find him by understanding his very creation?

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Vastet wrote:
Then your argument against my position could be wrong. 

I don't need to account for it, because it quite obviously works. I don't need to know why the universe exists in order to know it exists.

My argument against you isn't circular, only my premise. I never said logic didn't exist, only that you can't account for it independent of using logic itself.

 

Speaking Truth in love,

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Vastet
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eXnihilO wrote:Vastet wrote:

eXnihilO wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Then your argument against my position could be wrong. 

I don't need to account for it, because it quite obviously works. I don't need to know why the universe exists in order to know it exists.

My argument against you isn't circular, only my premise. I never said logic didn't exist, only that you can't account for it independent of using logic itself.

 

But I don't need to account for it. Eye-wink

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You're on a hiding to nothing arguing

 

 

With this guy, vastet. He's off in another dimension. All i can hear in this argument is the sound of one hand clapping. 

 

 

 

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  I have an honest question

  I have an honest question for you eXnihilO.  There is no sarcastic intent.

    If I understand your position correctly you have through your relationship with God tapped into an immeasurable resource that gives you ( vicariously ) a formidable  advantage in your perspective, perception and even the use and understanding of god-given logic.  Your eyes have been opened while ours ...as atheists ... have not.  We as atheists are seriously handicapped in every way, while you are not.

     Needless to say, that raises expectations regarding your presence here immensely. 

  I was simply wondering that even with the support of the most powerful Being in existence guiding you, combined with your spiritually sanctified pov  ...what you thought your chances were of actually affecting a receptive change ( perhaps even a conversion ) in even a single member of this forum ?  

  Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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....

Vastet wrote:
But I don't need to account for it. Eye-wink

 

Sorry for being presumptuous, but I understand you to care whether logic is valid... in fact you presuppose it's truthfulness when you made a logical statement just then...

Logic exists, we both use it, we both observe it's usefulness, but I have externally validated it in the character and nature of God and you must accept it as an unjustified axiom. There is philosophical high-ground here and Christians have it, God made it to be that way. That is my point, and the argument proves the existence of God by necessity.

Take care,

Speaking Truth in love,

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Father, please forgive them for they know not what they do...

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

  I have an honest question for you eXnihilO.  There is no sarcastic intent.

    If I understand your position correctly you have through your relationship with God tapped into an immeasurable resource that gives you ( vicariously ) a formidable  advantage in your perspective, perception and even the use and understanding of god-given logic.  Your eyes have been opened while ours ...as atheists ... have not.  We as atheists are seriously handicapped in every way, while you are not.

     Needless to say, that raises expectations regarding your presence here immensely. 

  I was simply wondering that even with the support of the most powerful Being in existence guiding you, combined with your spiritually sanctified pov  ...what you thought your chances were of actually affecting a receptive change ( perhaps even a conversion ) in even a single member of this forum ?  

  Thanks.

Good question, I'll appeal to the ultimate authority to answer:

" Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."

If a person whom God has chosen to save sees my words and is encouraged as a result, then all of this is worth it. If someone comes to faith as a result, even better. I am a seed scatterer, God makes them grow.

 

God wrote:


"'You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.

For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.'

 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

 

God wrote:

"You shall say to them this word: 'Let my eyes run down with tears night and day,
and let them not cease,
for the virgin daughter of my people is shattered with a great wound,
with a very grievous blow.

 

Speaking Truth in love,

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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

 

With this guy, vastet. He's off in another dimension. All i can hear in this argument is the sound of one hand clapping. 

 

 

 

I'm sharpening my teeth actually. Also, with this type, I know that my chances of breaking through are minimal, so I play to the audience. Frankly, I've been waiting for awhile now to see one of the hard core creationists. It's been too long. I would imagine the majority of them have written off this site entirely by this point. Though perhaps Brian's return has started a new wave. Many people figured the RRS was dead while he was working so hard to keep it alive. Time will tell.

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Vastet
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eXnihilO wrote:Vastet wrote:

eXnihilO wrote:

Vastet wrote:
But I don't need to account for it. Eye-wink

 

Sorry for being presumptuous, but I understand you to care whether logic is valid... in fact you presuppose it's truthfulness when you made a logical statement just then...

Logic exists, we both use it, we both observe it's usefulness, but I have externally validated it in the character and nature of God and you must accept it as an unjustified axiom. There is philosophical high-ground here and Christians have it, God made it to be that way. That is my point, and the argument proves the existence of God by necessity.

Take care,

My point is that I don't need a source to affirm that it works, I just need to test it. If it works, then I use it. Your giving it a source has no impact at all on its veracity. Whether I apply your god or leave him out, the equation 2 + 2 = 4 remains true.

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eXnihilO
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...

Vastet wrote:
My point is that I don't need a source to affirm that it works, I just need to test it. If it works, then I use it. Your giving it a source has no impact at all on its veracity. Whether I apply your god or leave him out, the equation 2 + 2 = 4 remains true.

Thank your for your honesty.

You don't need a source to affirm that logic works, why? Because it works!

This is entirely circular. And while this does not demean the value of the use of logic, it should humble you to the point that you stop attacking others for their use of equal axioms, specifically the axiom that God exists and His Word is the sole rule of life.

My position was never that logic wasn't here, useful, or the best way to interpret our surroundings. The modifier that logical deductions must conform to what the Bible says as first in priority is what rubs you the wrong way I think.

My point is that you can't externally validate logic and when you pretend that your not basing your entire position on a circular, and thus fallacious method of reasoning you automatically grant the existence of God in the process.

A world with only logic must justify logic with logic and base itself on a fallacy. As a Christian, logic is validated in the character and nature of God, making it not only viable, but externally valid as well.

You have two honest options.

Accept the axiom of God's existence as no less valid then your own and follow the conclusions out as you discover the joys of Jesus Christ.

or

Live life affirming the existence of God in every instance you employ logic.

You may also continue to supress the truth. You're up.

Speaking Truth in love,

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"You don't need a source to

"You don't need a source to affirm that logic works, why? Because it works! This is entirely circular."

Actually it isn't. You are positing that somehow a logical god existed where/when/however before logic existed, and is the source for logic. Except that if god were logical, then logic existed independent from god. Therefore even if god is true, in order to have created logic he would have to have assembled it from chaos, the inherently illogical. Which is simply ridiculously impossible. It's like asking me to believe a 747 will assemble itself from components not even incorporated in its design. You can't have knowledge without information, and you can't have information without logic. That we have information proves logic works, inherently. A source for logic can be said to be ourselves, as we utilise it. As do all life forms on the planet. But there is no need to account for why anymore than there's a need to account for the why of the universe, which would appear to be irrevocably tied to the argument.

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...

Vastet wrote:

... if god were logical, then logic existed independent from god...

Not sure how you are concluding this.

"Therefore even if god is true, in order to have created logic he would have to have assembled it from chaos, the inherently illogical."

You are applying a very limited understanding of a universe we dwell in to the God who Created it, do you see a problem?

"you can't have information without logic."

Logic is a system that claims to correctly handle information, not produce it.

"That we have information proves logic works, inherently."

At this point, a Christian shouldn't be criticized for saying 'Anything being here proves that God exists, inherently.'

"A source for logic can be said to be ourselves, as we utilise it. As do all life forms on the planet."

Logic is observed and has been discovered by men, it's not something we came up with. And If we ceased to exist the universe would still continue to function in a way that is logical, hypothetically speaking.

"But there is no need to account for why anymore than there's a need to account for the why of the universe, which would appear to be irrevocably tied to the argument."

They 'why' behind both would be the same, but I don't see the requirement to link them. I think it's clear that you have a passionate commitment to a system of beliefs that speaks to the 'why' of the universe... your system of thought answers the question 'we don't know.' - But you still give an answer.

Speaking Truth in love,

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"Not sure how you are

"Not sure how you are concluding this."

It is simple logic.

"You are applying a very limited understanding of a universe we dwell in to the God who Created it, do you see a problem?"

Quite the contrary. My understanding of the universe is irrelevant. The question is a dichotomy. Either logic, or not. All I need to understand is logic to get an answer.

"Logic is a system that claims to correctly handle information, not produce it."

Yet without it, information is impossible. It does not produce it, correct. It is PART of it. Without one, neither can accomplish anything. Without logic, 2 + 2 can equal 17. Or 6. Or both.

"At this point, a Christian shouldn't be criticized for saying 'Anything being here proves that God exists, inherently.'"

Circular, red herring, and I could come up with a number of other fallacies.

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"Logic is observed and has

"Logic is observed and has been discovered by men, it's not something we came up with. And If we ceased to exist the universe would still continue to function in a way that is logical, hypothetically speaking."

Exactly.

"They 'why' behind both would be the same, but I don't see the requirement to link them. I think it's clear that you have a passionate commitment to a system of beliefs that speaks to the 'why' of the universe... your system of thought answers the question 'we don't know.' - But you still give an answer."

An answer simultaneously void of meaning and filled with curiosity to find out. The polar opposite of your answer. Mine looks to find answers to better understand existence. Yours ends the adventure here and now, with the assertion that we cannot know, and with no comprehendable argument to support it. That is unsatisfactory.

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...

Vastet wrote:
An answer simultaneously void of meaning...

Yours ends the adventure here and now, with the assertion that we cannot know, and with no comprehendable argument to support it. That is unsatisfactory.

At least you are honest enough to admit that your answer is initially void of meaning.

Not only do Christians say we can know, we go as far to say that we already know...

It's very easy to apprehend the concepts and you seem to be in the minority who takes God as being an unsatisfactory answer, and this is strictly a subjection opinion.
 

 

Speaking Truth in love,

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