joseph coins

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joseph coins

 i was reading an interesting article today , some archeoligist have found coins in egypt stamped with the biblical figure of joseph on them , now for those that dont know the story (its covered in the book of genesis. ) joseph was the favorite son of his father ,and was sold into slavery by his brothers he ended up in egypt where he was known for his god given ablity to interpet dreams , eventually the pharoh  gave hime charge over economic activities. the coins that were found show that the biblical story is correct or real history . it really makes one wonder are the other stories true???


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pm9347 wrote: i was reading

pm9347 wrote:

 i was reading an interesting article today , some archeoligist have found coins in egypt stamped with the biblical figure of joseph on them , now for those that dont know the story (its covered in the book of genesis. ) joseph was the favorite son of his father ,and was sold into slavery by his brothers he ended up in egypt where he was known for his god given ablity to interpet dreams , eventually the pharoh  gave hime charge over economic activities. the coins that were found show that the biblical story is correct or real history . it really makes one wonder are the other stories true???

Could you site the actual article because so far only christian and muslim forums have claimed this. As well it says they claim they have found it but no one has confirmed this positively yet. There are also it appears to be holes in the actual claim. The only other source is the MEMRI website and they state that they claimed to have found, but no one is sure as of yet. With that said the muslims pretty much are the first to claim that the koran is true due to this so called discovery (as it may turn out to be scarabs as a few others have already pointed out, not actual coins)


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In other news, it is

In other news, it is trivial to go to any coin shop and buy many examples of older US coins with images of Lady Liberty (in fact, the goddess Columbia) often carrying a sword. In fact, US imagery of the concept is all over the place. Hell but we named one of our space shuttles after her and she is depicted on the dome of the Capitol in Washington DC.

 

Mind you, the goddess Columbia is a creation straight out of the enlightenment and I hope that nobody misses the point that she is named for Christopher Columbus. As such, there really never has been a cult of the goddess at hand.

 

Now let's say just for shits and giggles that a couple thousand years from now, archaeologists are looking at the remains of our civilization. They would, of course, be correct in asserting that our civilization placed a high value on the concepts embodied by the pictures. However, they would be committing a grave error if they asserted that a 150 foot tall woman named Columbia led the American Rebels into battle against the British regular army.

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i read the article in the

i read the article in the jeruslem post , online  i too cannot find anything else relating to the article except memri but im hopeful that since its a new discovery we might see more of it , plus im excited that stories like this may show the bibles historical validity and eventually lead people to research the bible more carefully


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pm9347 wrote:i read the

pm9347 wrote:

i read the article in the jeruslem post , online  i too cannot find anything else relating to the article except memri but im hopeful that since its a new discovery we might see more of it , plus im excited that stories like this may show the bibles historical validity and eventually lead people to research the bible more carefully

Oh my!

 Are you still hallucinating?

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pm9347 wrote:i read the

pm9347 wrote:

i read the article in the jeruslem post , online  i too cannot find anything else relating to the article except memri but im hopeful that since its a new discovery we might see more of it , plus im excited that stories like this may show the bibles historical validity and eventually lead people to research the bible more carefully

Except for the part that Muslims are already saying that this find would validate the Koran because the Koran states the usage of coins in joseph's time, even though actual coins were not used till sometime around 7th or 6th century BCE and that it well after Joseph's time. With that said, they look a lot like scarabs.


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you ve seen pictures of

you ve seen pictures of them???


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 Pictures:

From here.

Pictures:

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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what am i hallucinating

what am i hallucinating about ? read it for youself in the  jeruslem post ,come to think of it i remember seeing a news post about  them finding the pool of siloam , hmmm pretty much where the bible said it would be , or how about   The recently deciphered cuneiform inscription in a tablet dating from 595 BC refers to an official at the court of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, who is mentioned in the Book of Jeremiah.  these dont seen like hallucinations to me? to me that is proving biblical  historical valdity.
 


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hmmm, cant see any faces on

hmmm, cant see any faces on them or inscriptions on them nor do they look like coins , interesting type of currency


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It is not exactly surprising

It is not exactly surprising that some of the characters in the Bible were based on actual historical figures - this says nothing about the accuracy of any stories about those characters, unless we find independent archeological evidence for those actions.

'Proof' of any 'miraculous' events associated with such persons would require really strong evidence, since people are very attracted to the idea of such events, and are very prone to accept such stories on little or no evidence. 

 

The strong religious associations of Biblical stories means that we logically require very strong independent evidence for such stories because of this strong tendency in human psychology.

 

 

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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pm9347 wrote:what am i

pm9347 wrote:

what am i hallucinating about ? read it for youself in the  jeruslem post ,come to think of it i remember seeing a news post about  them finding the pool of siloam , hmmm pretty much where the bible said it would be , or how about   The recently deciphered cuneiform inscription in a tablet dating from 595 BC refers to an official at the court of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, who is mentioned in the Book of Jeremiah.  these dont seen like hallucinations to me? to me that is proving biblical  historical valdity.
 

Actually not much as been stated as to where they were found except for 500 of these "coins" were discovered in a museum in Egypt....nothing about the pool of siloam. As well no one says the entire bible is historically incorrect, but many parts of it are. As for the book of Jermiah is about the prophet that lived....shockingly enough around 587/6 BCE....so yeah 10 year difference I can see that this person may have lived at the right time and witness the official in the court of Nebuchadnezzar. However that still doesn't make up for all the other historical inaccuracies, such as

Daniel 5:1-2 says Belshazzar was king of the Chaldean Empire (Babylon), and son and successor of Nebuchadnezzar. In reality, Nebuchadnezzar's son and successor was Amel-Marduk.

Hosea 5:13 tells us the Assyrian King at that time was named Jareb. There was never an Assyrian king by that name, and the name of the king who did rule at that time was Tiglath-Pileser the third.

Daniel 5:30-31 says that Darius the Median took over the Babylon empire, but it was Cyrus of Persia who overthrew the Babylonian Empire. While there is a Darius the first in history, there is no mention of a Darius of Median anywhere.

Esther 1:9 tells us Vashti was queen of Persia at the time the story occures, but the queen at this time was actually Amestris, and there never was a queen of Persia named Vashti. Vashti was the name of an Elamite goddess.

and many more, but this is just a small sample. However it's not that far of a stretch to think that there is some historical accuracy in the bible or the torah.


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pm9347 wrote:what am i

pm9347 wrote:
what am i hallucinating about ? read it for youself in the jeruslem post ,come to think of it i remember seeing a news post about them finding the pool of siloam , hmmm pretty much where the bible said it would be , or how about The recently deciphered cuneiform inscription in a tablet dating from 595 BC refers to an official at the court of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, who is mentioned in the Book of Jeremiah. these dont seen like hallucinations to me? to me that is proving biblical historical valdity.

 

Well, even granting that there is a nugget of truth here and there in the bible, the fact remains that there is much that is clearly not accurate. However, to take the bits that might have some truth behind them and then extrapolate from that to the rest of the book is a poor argument at best.

 

Let's take the “recent” finding of the pool of siloam as an example. Well, apart from the fact that it was not lost in the first place (heck but wikipedia has photographs), why would finding it have any bearing on matters that are not connected to it? Further, if the coins did turn out to be coins, what would that tell us about event that happened much later than the coins has been produced?

 

Seriously, let me grant that Joseph may well have been a real person. According to the bible, his life set the stage for the life and actions of Moses. However, the actions of Moses leave one wanting for evidence in the archaeological record.

 

Just for debate I will grant the parting of the red sea. Yet if that happened, then a major part of the Egyptian army was decimated when it came back together. Since they were one of the major military powers of the time and place, gutting the army must stand out in the records, not only of Egypt (they kept very good records BTW) but also of the other military powers in the region. Except that that did not happen.

 

Then we have the whole forty years in the dessert following that to deal with. Well, the fact is that we know how far Israel is from Egypt. The fact is that the two points are just not very far apart. If it took you two months to walk, you would be moving quite slowly. Yet it took the freed slaves forty years to make the trip. If I was feeling generous, I could calculate an average speed for you but I would guess that they probably traveled a couple of meters per day.

 

A related question is just what the economic impact must have been to the Egyptians losing all of the cheap labor? Again, they kept records of everything. As far as record keeping, it would be fair to compare them to Nazi Germany. Yet there is no record of the largest part of their work force dissappearing.

 

So even if one takes this report of improbable coins on face value (pardon the pun), it only establishes a relatively minor bit of the bible, whereas the follow on story of Moses is clearly bunk.

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the currency provides us

the currency provides us with a glipmse into a time which correlates with the bibles story of joseph , representing a small truth , so its not within the realm of possiblity that other areas might be true as well , the fact that archeology hasnt explanied  possible contradictions yet leaves more research to be done . the proof that the exodus occured may be found here http://www.bibleprobe.com/exodus.htm  historical kings had a nack for wiping out certain points of history , which today we keep searching for the answers that the bible points out . the fact that one truth is present show its worth looking into .


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why is my comment being

why is my comment being moderated ? are comments screened before there published to ensure not to expose the truth????


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the coins represent a small

the coins represent a small shred of truth , which may lead to other truths as archology continues to research and change written history due to new facts being uncovered daily , to me this validates some of the biblical message if this is true ? maybe other areas are true as well. there are some evidences of exodus , there is the chariot wheels found in the red sea as well as mineralized bone found there all alone the red sea floor , as well as the 2 obelisk that solomon buildt to mark the spot , the graves on the mountain that have stones indicating they died after the plagues of god killed them and rock drawings indicating the  exodus. there where many kings in the ancient past that liked o wipe out history if they felt it made them look bad ,


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Apart from the absurd

Apart from the absurd logistical claims and lack of evidence for anything in Exodus, it also makes no sense from a historical context. During the Egyptian New Kingdom, Palestine was controlled by Egypt. Escaping from Egypt to a region also controlled by Egypt is not escaping anything! You really think the Egyptians would sit around and let the Israelites rampage through one of their provinces (or however they administrated Palestine)? No, they'd get their army and teach those rebels a lesson.

 

For the sake of argument, if Egypt did not control Palestine during the late bronze age, then their main rivals, the Hittite Empire did. They wouldn't have sat around letting the Israelites ravage one of their provinces either. These people didn't fuck around, they crushed such rebellions on a regular basis. Also, if the Egyptian army had gotten wiped out like the story goes, you can bet the Hittites would have written something like "Rofl. The pathetic Egyptians got destroyed by some backwater hill tribe", and then they would have conquered everything.

 

More likely, Exodus is composed much later during some period of unrest and/or external threat to Israel, as motivational literature. It tells a tale of the Israelites ridding themselves of foreign rule through divine intervention. Plenty of times through real history, the Israelites needed such uplifting tales to boost their morale.


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pm9347 wrote:the coins

pm9347 wrote:

the coins represent a small shred of truth , which may lead to other truths as archology continues to research and change written history due to new facts being uncovered daily , to me this validates some of the biblical message if this is true ? maybe other areas are true as well. there are some evidences of exodus , there is the chariot wheels found in the red sea as well as mineralized bone found there all alone the red sea floor , as well as the 2 obelisk that solomon buildt to mark the spot , the graves on the mountain that have stones indicating they died after the plagues of god killed them and rock drawings indicating the  exodus. there where many kings in the ancient past that liked o wipe out history if they felt it made them look bad ,

The items haven't been shown to be coinage except by those making the claim (as I expect with the other "evidences" you cite). Waiting for peer review...

Forgive me if I don't hold my breath.

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Lets not forget

That exodus mentions something like 600,000 fighting men, their wives and children as well, even if we take a small estimate say 40 percent women and another 20 percent children of jewish decent, 240,000 women and roughly 48000 children so that's 888000 israelits, not including non israelits that left with that group plus the elderly say from a group this large, say 30 percent of the 600,000 fighting men bring that number above the 1 million mark.

1 million people left Egypt....wandered for 40 years and never left a trace from a population nearly half the size of all of egypt at the time, and no record of Egypt losing 1 million plus people, some estimated from the biblical records over 2 million, the entire egyptian population was 3- 4 million total. No record of any kind of losing half it's population, no economic setbacks and only sending 20,000 troops to fight 1 to 2 million people?

Again I will state, yes there can be actual historical stuff in the bible, but it doesn't mean all the stories are true, or even occurred, even if some are true you still haven't accounted for all the other ones that are historically inaccurate. Including Exodus.


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Anonymous wrote:why is my

Anonymous wrote:

why is my comment being moderated ? are comments screened before there published to ensure not to expose the truth????

It could be because you dont have an account or you are not logged in

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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your not going to get a

your not going to get a direct answer with the writing on the wall saying this is how it happened , you have to read between the lines , and take some evidence and try to piece the story together, one truth will lead to another here is some more factual evidence http://ezinearticles.com/?Hebrews-in-Egypt---Slaves-and-Plagues---Extra-Biblical-Proof!&id=1804275     now lets say just for argument sake that the biblical account is factual based on the posible coins, it would let all the other parts of the story fall into place there is a large exodus leaving egypt, a massve egyptian army chases them down moses parts the red sea and drowns them not to mention that this group of isralites is being led by a cloud during the day and a pilar of fire at night , if you were the surrounding provinces would you attack that?? knowing they just decimated the strongest army in the world , as for a smaller force attacking a larger force and winning history has shown that to be possible , look at the spartans , archeology is begining to prove that atheist are wrong


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So now we have the

So now we have the chariot wheels claim as “proof” of the patently absurd idea that the exodus could have happened.

 

OK, for those who do not realize, there is this tool called google. If you use it properly, you can get to the heart of any matter in seconds. As it happens, the sole source for chariot wheels is Ron Wyatt who was never a professional archaeologist. Further, he only ever brought one up to the surface and it promptly disappeared.

 

Now the Egyptian department of antiquities has a very low opinion of amateur archaeological digs, forbids stuff from being removed from the country and further forbids anyone (even the real professional archaeologists) from bringing stuff up from the floor of the red sea.

 

If that is not enough, Wyatt also claimed to have found Noah's Ark and the Ark of the covenant. Those are just a few of his grandiose claims. His claims have gone so far that even Answers in Genesis has gone out of their way to distance themselves from his works.

 

Even if he did find a real chariot wheel, it would not prove anything at all. The area that he claims to have found stuff is a fairly well traveled route and one that an army might have taken to get to a port from where they could ferry chariots and other war materials across. Honestly, if a boat were to sink while carrying was materials, that would produce what Wyatt claimed to have found, thus proving only that it is possible for boats to sink.

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i agree that ron wyatt may

i agree that ron wyatt may not be a dependable source for information , and i can agree with the egyptians not liking digs of there history and treasure being removed from there country. however, why would we have bones of horses or of people with chariot wheels on the bottom of the red sea, where 2 stone obelesk  planted by solomon  mark the spot of the crossing ? there have been numerous dives in this area after ron wyatt that show pictures of chariot wheels , lets reason together that maybe this area was just an ancient highway or maybe a boat went down in the area. it would explain these things . however once again dont you find it interesting that we find chariot wheels. human bone scattered across the red sea in almost excatly where the bible states it happened and on top of that we find other than biblical evidence showing this is what might have happened here.


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pm9347 wrote:i agree that

pm9347 wrote:

i agree that ron wyatt may not be a dependable source for information , and i can agree with the egyptians not liking digs of there history and treasure being removed from there country. however, why would we have bones of horses or of people with chariot wheels on the bottom of the red sea, where 2 stone obelesk  planted by solomon  mark the spot of the crossing ? there have been numerous dives in this area after ron wyatt that show pictures of chariot wheels , lets reason together that maybe this area was just an ancient highway or maybe a boat went down in the area. it would explain these things . however once again dont you find it interesting that we find chariot wheels. human bone scattered across the red sea in almost excatly where the bible states it happened and on top of that we find other than biblical evidence showing this is what might have happened here.

Wyatt's a liar and the others are doing "conclusion first" research (starting with what they want to find and shoehorning the evidence to fit)?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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pm9347 wrote:i agree that

pm9347 wrote:

i agree that ron wyatt may not be a dependable source for information , and i can agree with the egyptians not liking digs of there history and treasure being removed from there country. however, why would we have bones of horses or of people with chariot wheels on the bottom of the red sea, where 2 stone obelesk  planted by solomon  mark the spot of the crossing ? there have been numerous dives in this area after ron wyatt that show pictures of chariot wheels , lets reason together that maybe this area was just an ancient highway or maybe a boat went down in the area. it would explain these things . however once again dont you find it interesting that we find chariot wheels. human bone scattered across the red sea in almost excatly where the bible states it happened and on top of that we find other than biblical evidence showing this is what might have happened here.

I think you are going way beyond the established facts here.

From this web-site:

Quote:

"The truth is, no one really knows where the crossing of the Red Sea took place," says Carl Rasmussen, a biblical geographer and professor of Old Testament at Bethel College in St. Paul, Minn.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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i dont feel that i am , what

i dont feel that i am , what if the "currency" that was found proves to be authentic, like some of the other possible artifacts previously mentioned , which once again provide more truth , if you walked into a grocery store and three people told you there was a sale in aisle 3  wouldnt you go , and would you believe them before you went to aisle 3??


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pm9347 wrote:i dont feel

pm9347 wrote:

i dont feel that i am , what if the "currency" that was found proves to be authentic, like some of the other possible artifacts previously mentioned , which once again provide more truth , if you walked into a grocery store and three people told you there was a sale in aisle 3  wouldnt you go , and would you believe them before you went to aisle 3??

Believe them before you get to isle three?  Don't you go to isle three and investigate?  You go to isle three because you have been told there is a sale.  You get to isle three and there is a sale.  That verifies that the people were telling you the truth.  You don't need to believe them before you get there.

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pm9347 wrote:i dont feel

pm9347 wrote:

i dont feel that i am , what if the "currency" that was found proves to be authentic, like some of the other possible artifacts previously mentioned , which once again provide more truth , if you walked into a grocery store and three people told you there was a sale in aisle 3  wouldnt you go , and would you believe them before you went to aisle 3??

Let's see...how could I fix this to make it fit Christianity?

"There's a sale on aisle 3"

"Yeah? Which store?"

"Don't know"

"Then how do you know there's a sale?"

"Some guy in a suit gave me a flier"

(looks at crudely written flier)

"Who made this?"

"Can't you read? It says 'The owner of the store'"

"The store you don't know"

"Does that matter? It's a sale - what's even better is you don't have to go to the store!"

"Wuzzat?"

"You give me money and I'll go to the store for you and bring the stuff back to you"

"You don't know me"

"That's no problem - I'll find you. Just give me the money. That's what I did for the guy who gave me the flier"

"Do you have your stuff?"

"Not yet, but he gave me his word and I believe him."

----

It's not "Kissing Hank's Ass" but you get the idea.

 

 

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ohhh man , that last comment

ohhh man , that last comment was hilarious , but it was the possiblity that there is a sale in asile 3  that you heard from other people that made you look , you trusted the people enough to look and find a sale , faith its the same way. you heard it from someone else about god you went to look , and apprently for some reason you found nothing or maybe you didnt even bother to look. but faith is all living your life according to biblical direction and waiting for christs to arrive . if you ask jesus christ to come into your heart and forgive all your sins and research jesus christ for just 6 months , after that if you feel there nothing at all in your soul , go ahead and deny him , you have nothing to lose


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pm9347 wrote:ohhh man , that

pm9347 wrote:

ohhh man , that last comment was hilarious , but it was the possiblity that there is a sale in asile 3  that you heard from other people that made you look , you trusted the people enough to look and find a sale , faith its the same way. you heard it from someone else about god you went to look , and apprently for some reason you found nothing or maybe you didnt even bother to look. but faith is all living your life according to biblical direction and waiting for christs to arrive . if you ask jesus christ to come into your heart and forgive all your sins and research jesus christ for just 6 months , after that if you feel there nothing at all in your soul , go ahead and deny him , you have nothing to lose

The point is that you react to the possibility of the sale (salvation) without actually going to see it for yourself - you are unsure which store (church) it is in. You just get excited that the sale might exist without checking it out. You just take the word of the well dressed man with the flier (preacher with bible).

We looked and researched. You did not. Glad your stories make you happy.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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i do look , i look all the

i do look , i look all the time, i research and i get on this website and delibirate and try to understand why people dont believe, to me or my point of view, each day i fnd a new reason to believe. jesus reminds me through my life that i need to find him , follow his words and help all that i can , as well as spread the news that he lives , i can t understand the athiest point of view , correct me if im wrong you dont believe at all ? and you feel that after death thats it, there is no after life , yet  you can look on the news daily and see proof of gods exsitence ? i cant understand that . so ill be open minded prove to me why you dont believe.


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pm9347 wrote:i do look , i

pm9347 wrote:

i do look , i look all the time, i research and i get on this website and delibirate and try to understand why people dont believe, to me or my point of view, each day i fnd a new reason to believe. jesus reminds me through my life that i need to find him , follow his words and help all that i can , as well as spread the news that he lives , i can t understand the athiest point of view , correct me if im wrong you dont believe at all ? and you feel that after death thats it, there is no after life , yet  you can look on the news daily and see proof of gods exsitence ? i cant understand that . so ill be open minded prove to me why you dont believe.

Research on sites that support your point of view does little to help you understand the other side.

As for my atheism:

1. I have beliefs - they just don't include deities or things without evidence. This differs from the faith you have which is a belief without or in spite of evidence.

2. No afterlife - I am relegated to living as well as I can and helping as many as I can with the life I have. I don't have to stop being useful on this planet hoping that God will solve everything in his time.

3a. What proof of the existence of God is in the news? I see a lot of stupid crap that humans are doing and I see a lot of natural disasters but I don't see God.

3b. I don't think you want the news stories as proof of God's existence. If so, all they really prove is that if your God exists, he's a compasionless prick.

Why don't I believe? No evidence and I read the Bible.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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pm9347 wrote:ohhh man , that

pm9347 wrote:

ohhh man , that last comment was hilarious , but it was the possiblity that there is a sale in asile 3  that you heard from other people that made you look , you trusted the people enough to look and find a sale , faith its the same way.

Well, I'm telling you right now, that guy was lying to you. However, there really is a huge sale in aisle 6 in a store on the other side of the road. You should go there instead.

Don't you have faith in me?

pm9347 wrote:
 if you ask jesus christ to come into your heart and forgive all your sins and research jesus christ for just 6 months , after that if you feel there nothing at all in your soul , go ahead and deny him , you have nothing to lose

I don't even think I have a soul. What does that indicate, oh wise oracle?

pm9347 wrote:
 yet  you can look on the news daily and see proof of gods exsitence ?

How? 

(Hahahahahahaha. Omg, that's so stupid.)

pm9347 wrote:
 i cant understand that . so ill be open minded prove to me why you dont believe.

I don't believe in God because I think the term is incoherent, and there is no evidence for such an entity. I don't have to prove his nonexistence. I don't hold the burden of proof.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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im sorry i dont understand

im sorry i dont understand the point of the penny??


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do i have faith in you , of

do i have faith in you , of course if you told me there was a sale across the street i would go and look, i have nothing to loose . for you to say you have no soul clearly states you lack insight , your saying you have no morality, you have nothing in you that compels you to know right from wrong , no intuition of good , you cant say that because we all have it , the insight to reach for what is right . the news shows jesus christ prescence daily , he predicted apostacy (tell me we dont have that ) wars and famines  in various places , ezikeil 38, 39 spell out a battle on israel with certain nations , iran being one of them  with russia getting dragged into it , the current headllines show this fight getting closer everyday christ says people will still refuse to believe in him after all of nature goes into total chaos , so he predicted you wouldnt believe . i have nothing to lose by believeing and following . i am a moral person so by me following ive lost nothing , as for proof the start of this string may have a small shred of truth , dont you think if one part is true , that more may be true as well ? here is you chance dont miss the sale in asile 3


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pm9347 wrote:do i have faith

pm9347 wrote:

do i have faith in you , of course if you told me there was a sale across the street i would go and look, i have nothing to loose . for you to say you have no soul clearly states you lack insight , your saying you have no morality, you have nothing in you that compels you to know right from wrong , no intuition of good , you cant say that because we all have it , the insight to reach for what is right . the news shows jesus christ prescence daily , he predicted apostacy (tell me we dont have that ) wars and famines  in various places , ezikeil 38, 39 spell out a battle on israel with certain nations , iran being one of them  with russia getting dragged into it , the current headllines show this fight getting closer everyday christ says people will still refuse to believe in him after all of nature goes into total chaos , so he predicted you wouldnt believe . i have nothing to lose by believeing and following . i am a moral person so by me following ive lost nothing , as for proof the start of this string may have a small shred of truth , dont you think if one part is true , that more may be true as well ? here is you chance dont miss the sale in asile 3

1. But you can't "go and look" with God - there's nothing to see. You can only take the word of the pastor and the Bible.

2. Where do you guys get this "You can't be moral without God" stuff? My morality comes from doing what benefits others as well as myself. Your morality comes from a 2000 year old book about a bloodthirsty God. I'll stick with my morality, thanks.

3. You don't really think that apostasy, wars and famines only happened recently, do you. This stuff has been going on for centuries and you can't be sure what the scriptures were predicting. You're trying to force the scripture to fit your conclusions. That's not ethical.

4. If one part of the bible is false, the whole is suspect - don't know who wrote it but I like it.

5. Please lose Pascal's Wager - it's bat squeeze.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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pm9347 wrote:do i have faith

pm9347 wrote:

do i have faith in you , of course if you told me there was a sale across the street i would go and look, i have nothing to loose .

Really?

Because if that's the case, then it might interest you to know that there's a ginormous sale happening in aisle 7 of a megastore right across the street.

It's called Islam. 

You should go there. You have faith in me, right?

pm9347 wrote:
for you to say you have no soul clearly states you lack insight ,

No, it "clearly states" that I don't believe "souls" exist. I don't think souls exist because the term is incoherent, and there is no evidence.

pm9347 wrote:
your saying you have no morality,

No, I'm saying I don't think souls exist. Don't just make random non sequitur conclusions. You have to show how they logically follow from the premises that you've been given. 

Look:

P - I don't believe souls exist.

Therefore?...

Q - I have no morality. 

Huh?

First, you need a working definition for the word "soul" and "morality." Then, you need to justify the relationship between the two claims. 

pm9347 wrote:
you have nothing in you that compels you to know right from wrong , no intuition of good ,

Sure I do. We all do. It's often referred to as our conscience. 

There are many moral instincts, regardless of religion or culture, that is virtually universal to our species. These feelings were beneficial in our evolution as a social animal.

pm9347 wrote:
you cant say that because we all have it , the insight to reach for what is right .

I don't know what you're trying to say. Your grammar is terrible.

pm9347 wrote:
the news shows jesus christ prescence daily , he predicted apostacy (tell me we dont have that ) wars and famines  in various places ,

What are you talking about?

pm9347 wrote:
ezikeil 38, 39

It's Ezekiel. Jeez, you can't even spell the name of a book of the Bible correctly. 

Two entire chapters are too long, so here's a link.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2038-39&version=KJV

pm9347 wrote:
spell out a battle on israel with certain nations , iran being one of them  with russia getting dragged into it , the current headllines show this fight getting closer everyday christ says people will still refuse to believe in him after all of nature goes into total chaos ,

It says Persia, not Iran. Persia doesn't exist anymore.

It doesn't anything about Russia. 

Basically, it predicted that there will be conflict. Is that so impressive?

pm9347 wrote:
so he predicted you wouldnt believe .

No, you idiot, they predicted there would be people that wouldn't believe. They did not specifically predict that "I" wouldn't believe. This is another fallacy.   

If I accurately predict that it there will be stars in the sky tonight, does that mean I accurately deduced the exact position of each star? No. If I predict that theists will exist 1,000 years from now, does that mean I'm making a divine prophecy on the personal beliefs of every theist at that time? No, I'm not. 

pm9347 wrote:
i have nothing to lose by believeing and following .

You can waste your entire life. You can also go to the hell of another religion.

pm9347 wrote:
i am a moral person so by me following ive lost nothing ,
 

If this conditional made any sense, then most of the people on this forum wouldn't lose anything either.

pm9347 wrote:
as for proof the start of this string may have a small shred of truth , dont you think if one part is true , that more may be true as well ?

No, that's fallacious. 

pm9347 wrote:
here is you chance dont miss the sale in asile 3

There is no sale in aisle 3. There is, however, a huge sale in aisle 7. I strongly advise you to go and check it out.

Actually, unfortunately, the sale won't start until you die, so choose your store and aisle wisely. 

Edit: Just so you know, you might end up in an aisle where 10 meter tall porcupines come to stab you and take all of your money instead. That would be bad.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Our insight tells us that we

Our insight tells us that we have emotions, hopes, desires, memories, imagination, basic reactions to various actions done to us and what we see being done to others, such as feelings or 'right' and 'wrong', and so on.

Many people assume that these things cannot be generated from 'mere' material objects such as our bodies and brains, so they attribute them to something immaterial which somehow is strongly associated with our bodies, at least while it is alive.

A smaller number of people question this assumption, and today we have massive evidence of the ability of certain kinds of very complex structures which support subtle and intricate processes whereby millions of elemental structures can interact, and these appear, by all kinds of tests, to be the origin of mental events. Virtually every aspect of our thoughts and personality can be completely altered or destroyed by doing physical things to various parts of our brains.

To grasp the implications of this requires additional insight and understanding, to go beyond the initial reaction which has people making the ultimately simplistic assumption that mentality requires some separate immaterial stuff forming a 'non-physical' entity we call the 'soul'. Which doesn't actually explain anything - we are just wrapping up all the things we don't understand and attributing them some separate 'thing', rather than grasping that it all arises not from some magical thing, but from the marvelous and complex patterns of interaction of many elementary, but physical, things. Our thoughts are not material objects, they are particular patterns of activity of particular kinds of material objects.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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pm9347 wrote:do i have faith

pm9347 wrote:

do i have faith in you , of course if you told me there was a sale across the street i would go and look, i have nothing to loose . for you to say you have no soul clearly states you lack insight , your saying you have no morality, you have nothing in you that compels you to know right from wrong , no intuition of good , you cant say that because we all have it , the insight to reach for what is right . the news shows jesus christ prescence daily , he predicted apostacy (tell me we dont have that ) wars and famines  in various places , ezikeil 38, 39 spell out a battle on israel with certain nations , iran being one of them  with russia getting dragged into it , the current headllines show this fight getting closer everyday christ says people will still refuse to believe in him after all of nature goes into total chaos , so he predicted you wouldnt believe . i have nothing to lose by believeing and following . i am a moral person so by me following ive lost nothing , as for proof the start of this string may have a small shred of truth , dont you think if one part is true , that more may be true as well ? here is you chance dont miss the sale in asile 3

I find it interesting that the items in the news that you claim show God's existence (wars, etc) tend to be started by God-believers. What is it? Trying to rush God's timetable?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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pm9347 wrote:ohhh man , that

pm9347 wrote:

ohhh man , that last comment was hilarious , but it was the possiblity that there is a sale in asile 3  that you heard from other people that made you look , you trusted the people enough to look and find a sale , faith its the same way. you heard it from someone else about god you went to look , and apprently for some reason you found nothing or maybe you didnt even bother to look. but faith is all living your life according to biblical direction and waiting for christs to arrive . if you ask jesus christ to come into your heart and forgive all your sins and research jesus christ for just 6 months , after that if you feel there nothing at all in your soul , go ahead and deny him , you have nothing to lose

You're insane.


 

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Just out of curiosity,

Just out of curiosity, did you have any intention of explaining the legitimate concerns regarding the exodus in this thread? You know, the bits about how it would have devastated the Egyptian economy and the effect of losing a major part of the army? How about where the evidence of a population larger than most cities, even today, wandering in the desert for decades?

 

Surely, those bits would have been noticed in the ancient world or left some corroborating evidence in the archaeological record.

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Just out of curiosity, did you have any intention of explaining the legitimate concerns regarding the exodus in this thread? You know, the bits about how it would have devastated the Egyptian economy and the effect of losing a major part of the army? How about where the evidence of a population larger than most cities, even today, wandering in the desert for decades?

 

Surely, those bits would have been noticed in the ancient world or left some corroborating evidence in the archaeological record.

 

 

Evidence? Why, the Bible of course!

 

 

 

 

...you aren't expecting anything more right? The Bible is infallible!

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pm9347 wrote:do i have faith

pm9347 wrote:

do i have faith in you , of course if you told me there was a sale across the street i would go and look, i have nothing to loose . for you to say you have no soul clearly states you lack insight , your saying you have no morality, you have nothing in you that compels you to know right from wrong , no intuition of good , you cant say that because we all have it , the insight to reach for what is right . the news shows jesus christ prescence daily , he predicted apostacy (tell me we dont have that ) wars and famines  in various places , ezikeil 38, 39 spell out a battle on israel with certain nations , iran being one of them  with russia getting dragged into it , the current headllines show this fight getting closer everyday christ says people will still refuse to believe in him after all of nature goes into total chaos , so he predicted you wouldnt believe . i have nothing to lose by believeing and following . i am a moral person so by me following ive lost nothing , as for proof the start of this string may have a small shred of truth , dont you think if one part is true , that more may be true as well ? here is you chance dont miss the sale in asile 3

This is an incorrect use of the word faith. The word that you are using to describe someone telling you about a sale is "confidence or trust in a person or thing," while the faith that is being discussed is "a belief not based on truth." 

Don't equivocate.


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when i first started this

when i first started this string my main purpose was to discuss and learn, alternative points of view , i wanted to figure out why atheist feel so strongly about not having any kind of god to guide their lives, and so far its been very interesting , until butterbattle last comment , im more than willing to debate intelligently with everyone, however i wont respond to insult , so butterbattle i say this to you directly if you continue to insult ,i wont respond to you , to start a name calling battle only defeats our purpose for conversation . moving on, confidence or trust for a christian is a belief that christ is a real truth and we wait for him to return, so  it can be equal for me to believe there is a sale in aisle 3 if its in another store (islam ) ive researched and found it to be false , so i continue with my current faith . i would like to discuss more of the exodus and some possible evidence that researchers have found , but please lets keep it to adult conversations , i can start the name calling to if you like .


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pm9347 wrote:when i first

pm9347 wrote:

when i first started this string my main purpose was to discuss and learn, alternative points of view , i wanted to figure out why atheist feel so strongly about not having any kind of god to guide their lives, and so far its been very interesting , until butterbattle last comment , im more than willing to debate intelligently with everyone, however i wont respond to insult , so butterbattle i say this to you directly if you continue to insult ,i wont respond to you , to start a name calling battle only defeats our purpose for conversation . moving on, confidence or trust for a christian is a belief that christ is a real truth and we wait for him to return, so  it can be equal for me to believe there is a sale in aisle 3 if its in another store (islam ) ive researched and found it to be false , so i continue with my current faith . i would like to discuss more of the exodus and some possible evidence that researchers have found , but please lets keep it to adult conversations , i can start the name calling to if you like .

Do you mind my asking what research you've done? Many theists come here with what they call "research" which turns out to be "My pastor told me..."

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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This may be a silly question

This may be a silly question but how do we know it is joesph? is his face stamped on it? how do we know what he looks like? Is it name and face what? I mean if there are some coins with faces on that kinda means somes face is stamped on them not nessicarily joesphs...  then again i havnt read a thing about this so it may be a silly question

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Ivon wrote:  Is this the

Ivon wrote:

 

 

Is this the offspring of Abraham Lincoln and Billy Ray Cyrus????


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ubuntu pics are hilarious ,

ubuntu pics are hilarious , the avatar is great, as for the coins we dont have actually complete proof yet , there still researching them , but memri (the insitute that found them ) says they bear his name and image , as well as pharoh and the date they were minted . as for research i present what i can research on subjects that are dicussed mostly by internet searching im not a historian or anything but i have a passion for learning and wish to share that knowledge or discover more in any way possible, which is why im here.


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Alright, I apologize. I'll

Alright, I apologize. 

I'll try to talk more politely. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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pm9347 wrote:ubuntu pics are

pm9347 wrote:

ubuntu pics are hilarious , the avatar is great, as for the coins we dont have actually complete proof yet , there still researching them , but memri (the insitute that found them ) says they bear his name and image , as well as pharoh and the date they were minted . as for research i present what i can research on subjects that are dicussed mostly by internet searching im not a historian or anything but i have a passion for learning and wish to share that knowledge or discover more in any way possible, which is why im here.

It's funny that they don't mention which pharoah but Joseph's name somehow stood out prominently.

Pharoah is a title and not a proper name - finding out which pharoah was mentioned would go far in determining authenticity.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin