Extinction of lions

julio
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Extinction of lions

Heard it on EuroNews that the African Lion faces extinction within a few decades.
Well. I always wondered what value does that wild beast have. I don’t think the world would be worse off without lions. It is perhaps the most useless wild animal in the planet.
But be it as it may, here in South Africa, the top FIVE wild beasts [the lion being number one] are great business in wildernesses like the Kruger National Park.
[Fully booked for next year's Soccer World Cup - http://www.wild-wings.co.za/]

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Whoa! What value is

Whoa! What value is there on a predator? Well, I suppose that if you really like what they prey on, then not all that much. On the other hand, if you place your value in other directions, you probably had better consider the idea more fully.

 

Here is the states, we have largely managed to marginalize many of our predators only to find out that they ought not to have been. In areas where we have gotten rid of wolves, there are way to many deer. And hunting deer in the middle of the suburbs is generally considered to be a problem.

 

In areas where we poison snake nests, there are rats and mice all over the place. The answer to that? Well more poison spread around of course. Mind you, getting rid of the rats and mice means that we have more insects to deal with, so more poison needs to be spread around. Now we find fewer birds around and so on...

 

Yah, man is really good at understanding how nature has everything wrong and useless and how we can do better by trapping and spraying noxious chemicals all over the place. We are just so much better at running the world. Heck, undirected nature kept things going for a couple of billion years just so that we could eventually show up and do whatever we felt like in an undirected way.

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As AIG pointed out, we now

As AIG pointed out, we now know that the top predator is a vital part of any eco-system. Remove them and things quickly go out of balance...

 

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Reminded!

 

 

 

      I am reminded of an Old Joke about;;         Do NOT remove  all the water from the swamp  and THEN  complain about being up to your neck in alligators!!!

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I respect your opinion, but

I respect your opinion, but as far as LIONS are concerned [not the same applies to wolves and other predators] they are utterly USELESS, for they catch prey and next go to eat it and sleep. Nothing else. Zebra continue to multiply regardless of the FEW the lions eat. Lions are the most useless species; not even good for sausages! Ecologists are defending a COMMERCIAL agenda that grants them a living. In other words, preservation of lions in Africa is fiction for little children. The sooner they are wiped out from the planet the better for populations attacked by lions! http://www.euronews.net/2009/09/15/crisis-in-kenya/

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I dont give many species

I dont give many species much hope. It is obvious that homosapiens is the king of beasts, not the lion. China and India are just beginning their consumerism frenzy, thats 2.5 billion humans vying for a better life.

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Here is the states, we have largely managed to marginalize many of our predators only to find out that they ought not to have been. In areas where we have gotten rid of wolves, there are way to many deer. And hunting deer in the middle of the suburbs is generally considered to be a problem.

 

Bow hunting should be encouraged in the suburbs

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julio wrote:I respect your

julio wrote:

I respect your opinion, but as far as LIONS are concerned [not the same applies to wolves and other predators] they are utterly USELESS, for they catch prey and next go to eat it and sleep. Nothing else. Zebra continue to multiply regardless of the FEW the lions eat. Lions are the most useless species; not even good for sausages! Ecologists are defending a COMMERCIAL agenda that grants them a living. In other words, preservation of lions in Africa is fiction for little children. The sooner they are wiped out from the planet the better for populations attacked by lions! http://www.euronews.net/2009/09/15/crisis-in-kenya/

And what is the 'use' of zebras and all the other animals? You could say that just about any individual species at any level in the eco-system. Should we wipe out everything which is personally annoying? That is extremely arrogant, and unfortunately represents an attitude to the natural world which has lead human-kind to massively degrade the natural world, which we still ultimately depend on to a very significant degree.

The evolution of the prey animals and there behavior, such as their gathering in herds,  is affected to an important degree by the presence of predators. I have watched a solitary lion walking past a herd of wildebeest and zebra, closely watched by all the members of the herd who noticed him. You have said nothing to justify your point. Just what makes wolves 'useful' and lions not? Their behavior as predators is really not that different.

From a practical point of view, lions are very important for tourism - I speak as someone who travelled to Africa to see and photograph African wild-life, and lions were a major part of the attraction and interest. They are an iconic animal in human imagination.

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julio wrote:Extintion of lions----no big deal

   You truly don't understand Nature and Umbrella species and balance in the natural world.

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Lions will be extinct SOON,

Lions will be extinct SOON, and what then? Is it the end of the world? No. We will survive till our turn to be extinct. Friends: there is no hope. Give me good, solid reason for lions to have our applause, apart the tourism factor. There is none. Lions [AS A SPECIES] are useless.

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Everything as a species is

Everything as a species is useless. Humans are useless for example, parrots are useless, pandas are useless, But all the useless put together isn't quite so useless. We can do without many of the individual parts, Lions may be one of them that we can do without I don't know, but lose to many individual parts and it all breaks down.

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Tapey wrote: Everything as a

Tapey wrote:

Everything as a species is useless. Humans are useless for example, parrots are useless, pandas are useless, But all the useless put together isn't quite so useless. We can do without many of the individual parts, Lions may be one of them that we can do without I don't know, but lose to many individual parts and it all breaks down.

I do agree with that! It is what will eventually happen with this planet. Scientists say it happened already a few times. Remember the dinosaurs?... As for lions, I live in South Africa and have seen lions regularly, a few metres from my car. They look tame and useless, but are terribly dangerous, killing a man in seconds! It is exactly because they kill men and eat them that they are going to be extinct sometime. What will happen then? Nothing special; life will carry on for some more centuries, and then the end... [if nuclear bombs are not discharged in the Middle East earlier on].

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julio wrote:Tapey wrote:

julio wrote:

Tapey wrote:

Everything as a species is useless. Humans are useless for example, parrots are useless, pandas are useless, But all the useless put together isn't quite so useless. We can do without many of the individual parts, Lions may be one of them that we can do without I don't know, but lose to many individual parts and it all breaks down.

I do agree with that! It is what will eventually happen with this planet. Scientists say it happened already a few times. Remember the dinosaurs?... As for lions, I live in South Africa and have seen lions regularly, a few metres from my car. They look tame and useless, but are terribly dangerous, killing a man in seconds! It is exactly because they kill men and eat them that they are going to be extinct sometime. What will happen then? Nothing special; life will carry on for some more centuries, and then the end... [if nuclear bombs are not discharged in the Middle East earlier on].

Well this is a third I think.... a fellow South African

I think the lions will be fine atleast here in SA dunno about the rest of Africa but they are part of the tourist experience so will be protected if they are in danger. 

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Yes, you're right. The lions

Yes, you're right. The lions in the Kruger National Park are for now protected and controlled. Which is good for tourism. If it were not for that, by now there wouldn't be any left in this country.
But I reiterate: lions "as a species" are not necessary ecologically speaking. The few zebra or wildebeest they eat don't count anything in the larger picture [larger but always shrinking]. The sentimental among us will cry for sometime that we used to have a cruel carnivore called lion, but it will be better for population in Kenya and other places to live a more tranquil life WITHOUT lions. It's a useless species.

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Hippos, buffalo, and

Hippos, buffalo, and crocodiles kill far more people in Africa than lions do.

 

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BobSpence1 wrote:Hippos,

BobSpence1 wrote:

Hippos, buffalo, and crocodiles kill far more people in Africa than lions do.

 

...which is a good reason why hippos, buffalo, and crocodiles should be allowed to flourish.

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Lions are useless. Other

Lions are useless. Other animals have some use, at least to make sausages...


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What you never had lion

What you never had lion sausage?

P.S. crocodiles do taste good they have some use. 


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This entire topic is based

This entire topic is based in subjectivity, and is absolutely pointless.

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julio wrote:Lions are

julio wrote:
Lions are useless. Other animals have some use, at least to make sausages...

Just what makes an animal 'useful' to you, apart from its edibility???

Lions are edible by the way, apparently more as steaks than sausages....

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Yes, you're right, it is

Yes, you're right, it is subjective. Nonetheless, it is not as useless as lions are.
But seriously, the matter is not subjective in countries where lions attack and eat human beings, provoking hatred of lions and their slaughter. Try to live in a poor country where you can be eaten by a lion [if you walk in the night in the country or farms]. Then come here and talk about subjectivity, will you? Lions are indeed of no use to man. And, be sure of this: no matter our sentimentality, lions will be extinct soon.

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Julio, go back and read your

Julio, go back and read your own posts. You give a use for lions yourself. Remember just because their not good for sausage doesn't mean they can't help you obtain sausage ;D


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julio wrote:Yes, you're

julio wrote:
Yes, you're right, it is subjective. Nonetheless, it is not as useless as lions are.
But seriously, the matter is not subjective in countries where lions attack and eat human beings, provoking hatred of lions and their slaughter. Try to live in a poor country where you can be eaten by a lion [if you walk in the night in the country or farms]. Then come here and talk about subjectivity, will you? Lions are indeed of no use to man. And, be sure of this: no matter our sentimentality, lions will be extinct soon.

Explain how this topic is at all useful, or be wrong by default.

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Well, this forum, like many

Well, this forum, like many others, is primarily for entertainment, though one might learn a few things in between laughs. As for lions' utility, they have none of real significance. You point to us something really important about lions [apart tourism] and I might change my mind. I live in South Africa where there are no lions in the wild [only in national parks]. Do we have suffered any serious impact because of no lions in the wild? No.

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Not the forum, the topic.

Not the forum, the topic.

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julio wrote:do we suffer any serious impact because of no lions

   You make a very hubris point,only thinking about the impact on humans,but the reality is that us humans contribute absolutely nothing towards nature,we are the only species that kill one another over the dumbest reasons such as religion or has the capacity to annihilate all of life with a nuclear war and not to mention the problems of global warming,it's human that is the problems not the LIONS. At least the kills that the lions make is for their survival and their scraps are devoured by insects and vultures.The planet would be better off if humans became extinct.

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Vastet wrote:Not the forum,

Vastet wrote:
Not the forum, the topic.

Sorry; you're right; that's what I meant. OK, I repeat: lions are useless, not even good for sausages. They have no real function in the ecology of the planet anymore [perhaps they had in earlier millennia, which I also doubt]. But the other more obtrusive question is: why are people so sentimental about that wild beast, really?... Is it about the circuses?...

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Ken G. wrote:    You make

Ken G. wrote:

   You make a very hubris point,only thinking about the impact on humans,but the reality is that us humans contribute absolutely nothing towards nature,we are the only species that kill one another over the dumbest reasons such as religion or has the capacity to annihilate all of life with a nuclear war and not to mention the problems of global warming,it's human that is the problems not the LIONS. At least the kills that the lions make is for their survival and their scraps are devoured by insects and vultures.The planet would be better off if humans became extinct.

Yes, I have to agree with you, who would not! Indeed, the humans are the WORST species on this DANGEROUS planet. We even kill lions for sausages... no, sorry; that was a bad joke!... But you're right. When men go to war they kill many, many innocent species, and destroy everything in the war path; we are terrible indeed!! However, the topic here is the uselessness of the lions as a species, which I see as of no consequence for ecology if they disappear from Kenya or the Africa continent. OK, tourism would never be the same if lions were extinct in Africa. Who would come down here from the northern hemisphere to only see the Big Four?!...

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julio after the lions have

.... julio after the lions have been destroyed  perhaps you could then move on to the destruction of spotted hyenas, leopards, African wild dogs, jackals, homeless people, etc,  and then eventually work your way down to the pesky termites, ants, fleas, amoeba ...bacteria

  Also, if you are really determined to rid your nation of superfluous life forms perhaps you can get your hands on a number of neutron bombs.  When it comes to destroying useless organic life nothing wipes the slate clean like massively high levels of radiation.

        Good luck !

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ProzacDeathWish wrote: ....

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

.... julio after the lions have been destroyed  perhaps you could then move on to the destruction of spotted hyenas, leopards, African wild dogs, jackals, homeless people, etc,  and then eventually work your way down to the pesky termites, ants, fleas, amoeba ...bacteria

  Also, if you are really determined to rid your nation of superfluous life forms perhaps you can get your hands on a number of neutron bombs.  When it comes to destroying useless organic life nothing wipes the slate clean like massively high levels of radiation.

        Good luck !

Please, don't misquote me. I only said lions are useless. You never had a family member attacked and eaten by lions!! In Kenya, livestock and humans are attacked by those wild beasts!!! What do they do, then? They apply the destructive formula: One lion kills one human being, SEVERAL human beings kill several lions! Result? Lions will lose for attacking humans! It is the survival of the fittest. Now, we are very sentimental about lions because we like to see them in zoos or in the circuses. It is a SICK planet!

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i've watched this thread for

i've watched this thread for awhile now and i think wires are starting to get crossed.

julio, i don't think anyone here is defending lions out of sentimentality.  i think they're all basically saying that you haven't thought this through enough and that the extinction of the lion is likely to be MORE detrimental to humans in the long run than their occasional attacks. 

in fact, julio, it sounds like your position is based more on emotion than those who oppose you.  you seem angry because lions attack and kill humans and that that is balanced by their being a viable food source.  on the other hand, your opponents seem to be arguing that it's better that lions exist if we want to conserve an ecosystem that can ultimately sustain human life.  the latter position seems more informed by scientific reasoning, whether it proves to be correct or not.  i haven't seen anyone on this thread arguing "but lions are so majestic, blah blah blah."  maybe i just missed it.

i think the best thing to do would be to ask an ecologist and take him at his word.  any ecologists on this board?

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julio wrote:  ..Now, we are

julio wrote:

 

..Now, we are very sentimental about lions because we like to see them in zoos or in the circuses.   

   Wrong.  I like lions because they used to eat Christians.


 

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iwbiek wrote: i've watched

iwbiek wrote:

i've watched this thread for awhile now and i think wires are starting to get crossed.

julio, i don't think anyone here is defending lions out of sentimentality.  i think they're all basically saying that you haven't thought this through enough and that the extinction of the lion is likely to be MORE detrimental to humans in the long run than their occasional attacks. 

in fact, julio, it sounds like your position is based more on emotion than those who oppose you.  you seem angry because lions attack and kill humans and that that is balanced by their being a viable food source.  on the other hand, your opponents seem to be arguing that it's better that lions exist if we want to conserve an ecosystem that can ultimately sustain human life.  the latter position seems more informed by scientific reasoning, whether it proves to be correct or not.  i haven't seen anyone on this thread arguing "but lions are so majestic, blah blah blah."  maybe i just missed it.

i think the best thing to do would be to ask an ecologist and take him at his word.  any ecologists on this board?

Your points have some weight, sure. We are, though, somewhat sentimental about the lions because they are nice to attract tourists and sell tickets for the circuses. But to ask an ecologist, yes, why not? Remembering that those professionals do it to sustain their profession, and a little more. They have no "permanent" solution for the planet's ecology. No way Jose! Ecologists are in themselves a "species" of humans that also have their days counted, like everything else. To me, lions have no reason to exist if they keep eating humans! Ants are better than lions. Elephants are better. They don't eat humans! Fair is fair.

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I agree with JulioThe loss

I agree with Julio

The loss of the lion is inevitable and the impact will merely be psychological and symbolic. It will not gravely impact the ecology.

The lion will disappear, tough shit.

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aiia wrote: I agree with

aiia wrote:

I agree with Julio

The loss of the lion is inevitable and the impact will merely be psychological and symbolic. It will not gravely impact the ecology.

The lion will disappear, tough shit.

Well put. Lions are insignificant even in ecology, for they, in the end, eat only a few zebra or a few wildebeest or so. The REAL problem is when they eat humans in countries where farming is vital for the survival of the same humans. In Kenya the lions live in the wild and come across human beings regularly, attacking and killing them. No so in other countries, like here in South Africa, where there are no lions anywhere in the wild, except in animal reserve enclosures [like the famous Kruger national park]. Let us face it, folks: lions will disappear from Africa in due course, and then what? The end of the world? No.

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julio wrote:Elephants are

julio wrote:

Elephants are better. They don't eat humans! Fair is fair.

true, but they've certainly been known to kill them.  they were once used as beasts of war, after all.

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OK, granted that

OK, granted that elephants don't eat humans. They just crush them and leave the bodies for the loins to scavenge. That much being said, it took all of a few minutes on google to determine that you have a much larger problem with elephants than you do with lions.

 

Apparently, Kruger National Park has about twice the number of elephants that it can support without being a threat to the ecology in general and when the elephants are done with an area, there is so little left that it is causing desertification. Against that, vasectomizing the bulls seems to be the only approved method for reducing the population.

 

Also, since you think that ants are somehow better, allow me to remind you that it was just a week ago that you were posting about your problem with ants.

 

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:


OK, granted that elephants don't eat humans. They just crush them and leave the bodies for the loins to scavenge. That much being said, it took all of a few minutes on google to determine that you have a much larger problem with elephants than you do with lions.

 

Apparently, Kruger National Park has about twice the number of elephants that it can support without being a threat to the ecology in general and when the elephants are done with an area, there is so little left that it is causing desertification. Against that, vasectomizing the bulls seems to be the only approved method for reducing the population.

 

Also, since you think that ants are somehow better, allow me to remind you that it was just a week ago that you were posting about your problem with ants.

 

I have to agree with you; you caught me out of balance. Indeed, the elephants are a bigger menace in the national park, because they have little space to wonder. Due to that, the culling of elephants is inevitable, but there is much debate about it, here in South Africa. The same would happen with the lions if they multiplied like elephants. One occasion, in that park, I stopped my car a mere 5 metres away from the biggest beast of an elephant male I had ever seen in my life!! The beast would have a mass of perhaps a thousand kilos! Massive, and unbelievable. It is true that when they get "nervous" they destroy the natural habitat like no other. As for the ants, you're right again. Indeed, we are right now surrounded by the Argentine ant invading everywhere, but they do not eat people [we're luck, I tell you!].

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
vasectomizing the bulls seems to be the only approved method for reducing the population. 

For fuck sake, what a waste of time and money. People will pay huge amounts of money to be able to hunt down and kill an elephant, perhaps as much as $20,000 or more.

Kruger National Park would benefit twice if they sold the privilege to hunt a limited number of elephants; 1. the park will gain money and 2. the problem the elephants are causing will be vastly corrected.

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True, but I think the Park's

True, but I think the Park's "Constitution" doesn't allow game hunting inside it. However, the rangers do KILL lions and elephants when needed. As you say, a great waste of money indeed. Sterilizing elephants, by the way, is a no-no, for reasons of female rejection and fightings resulting in brutal killings among them. Also very, very expensive!  

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julio wrote:Vastet wrote:Not

julio wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Not the forum, the topic.


Sorry; you're right; that's what I meant.
OK, I repeat: lions are useless, not even good for sausages. They have no real function in the ecology of the planet anymore [perhaps they had in earlier millennia, which I also doubt]. But the other more obtrusive question is: why are people so sentimental about that wild beast, really?... Is it about the circuses?...

A lion is edible enough. This topic isn't. Thus, the lion is infititely more valuable than this topic to the human species in general.

Unless of course you care to try again.

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Well, yes... I have to sort

Well, yes... I have to sort of agree with you; this topic is somewhat useless. Like the lions... Are you sure one could eat lion meat and live?... I don't know. Too exotic perhaps...

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Being the consumate

Being the consumate carnivore that I am, I'm quite willing to cook and eat a lion steak.
I will of course need a lion...

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julio wrote:Well, yes... I

julio wrote:
Well, yes... I have to sort of agree with you; this topic is somewhat useless. Like the lions... Are you sure one could eat lion meat and live?... I don't know. Too exotic perhaps...

Where did you get the idea the lion meat would not be edible?

Just one reference, from a South African newspaper:

Cape Argus wrote:

Local animal welfare groups are outraged that a US company is offering lion steaks and lion loin chops for sale through the internet.

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julio wrote:True, but I

julio wrote:

True, but I think the Park's "Constitution" doesn't allow game hunting inside it. 

    What a shame.  I thought of a way to double the profits even above what aiia was suggesting. 

   1.)  Allow big game hunters into the park to hunt and kill a single elephant for 20,000 USD.

   2.)  At the same time invite radical members from the Animal Liberation Front to hunt the elephant hunters themselves and also charge them 20,000 USD for every dead hunter.

    It's win, win baby.

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:julio

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

julio wrote:

True, but I think the Park's "Constitution" doesn't allow game hunting inside it. 

    What a shame.  I thought of a way to double the profits even above what aiia was suggesting. 

   1.)  Allow big game hunters into the park to hunt and kill a single elephant for 20,000 USD.

   2.)  At the same time invite radical members from the Animal Liberation Front to hunt the elephant hunters themselves and also charge them 20,000 USD for every dead hunter.

    It's win, win baby.

 

Is killing an elephant equal to killing a human to you?

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:julio

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

julio wrote:

True, but I think the Park's "Constitution" doesn't allow game hunting inside it. 

    What a shame.  I thought of a way to double the profits even above what aiia was suggesting. 

   1.)  Allow big game hunters into the park to hunt and kill a single elephant for 20,000 USD.

   2.)  At the same time invite radical members from the Animal Liberation Front to hunt the elephant hunters themselves and also charge them 20,000 USD for every dead hunter.

    It's win, win baby.

You'd damn well better let me in to hunt down alf members then. And since I'm doing the world a service, I want $200 per head of those parasites.

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BobSpence1 wrote: julio

BobSpence1 wrote:

julio wrote:
Well, yes... I have to sort of agree with you; this topic is somewhat useless. Like the lions... Are you sure one could eat lion meat and live?... I don't know. Too exotic perhaps...

Where did you get the idea the lion meat would not be edible?

Just one reference, from a South African newspaper:

Cape Argus wrote:

Local animal welfare groups are outraged that a US company is offering lion steaks and lion loin chops for sale through the internet.

I read somewhere that one can get lion meat, but not here in South Africa, as far as I know, not legally. Besides, what would that meat taste like?... I wouldn't even try it! [Maybe in disguised sausages, with beef or buffalo...]. Wouldn't lion flesh be dangerous with all those bacteria from a purely carnivorous digestion, I wonder?...

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Digestion of many kinds of

Digestion of many kinds of plants, especially leaves and grass, requires much more processing than does flesh, and relies as much or more on bacteria to assist the process. The bacteria involved in digestion remain in the stomach and gut.

The main contamination from micro-organisms in meat is from parasites, which can inhabit all parts of the body.

We eat plenty of meat from carnivorous fish such as tuna and salmon.

Dogs have been eaten for a long time in parts of China.

The main risk of eating carnivores is due to them being near the top of the food-chain, so any contaminants such as pesticides like DDT, or heavy metals, like mercury, etc absorbed by by the prey species tend to concentrate in the flesh of the animals that eat them. Mercury is a real issue with tuna and salmon.

 

 

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Even the parasites are

Even the parasites are possibly not an issue. There is a phenomenon known as the “species barrier” that is not easily crossed by many microorganisms. Then too, even when a jump is known to be viable, they are killed by proper cooking. Hence the guidelines that certain types of meat must be fully cooked (such as pork and poultry).

 

For many animals, the species barrier is proof enough that it is usually safe enough for humans to eat rare cooked meat (like cows). In the case of the potential felidae/hominidae barrier, there is not much that is known to be capable of jumping the gap. I have heard that people diagnosed with HIV are commonly tested for a couple of strains of feline bacteria as they can be a problem. However, HIV is such a game changer as far as risk factor go that I would suspect that most people don't need to worry about such risks.

 

The largest risk from cows is the gut bacteria that Bob mentioned. At least in American factories, it sometimes happens that the animal's gut will get cut accidentally and spill the e. coli, thus contaminating what meat it comes in contact with.

 

Here I would note that most land mammals (including humans) have strains of e. coli that are adapted to their specific dietary needs. The major risk from bovine e. coli to humans is that it is adapted to digest grass and is just not something that humans need or want in them. While no data likely exists on the matter, the fact that lions have a diet that is somewhat similar to humans, it is certainly in the realm of contemplation that it would not be as large of a problem.

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 ...So, here's a

 ...So, here's a question:

What do you intend to do about the hyenas?

After all of the lions that compete with them are gone, I mean.

 

This is the problem with the extinction of one particular body of an ecosystem - it upsets a given equilibrium. The system will probably correct itself again over time, but in the meanwhile, you've got your permanent settlements installed in a region where suddenly either:

 - The rodent population explodes, due to a lack of predation. See: Bubonic Plague

 - The flora population explodes, and subsequently, the insect population explodes, due to over-predation (more likely, given that hyenas are much more voracious predators than lions).  See: Malaria

 

You're living in a somwhat balanced ecosystem right now. try not to break it; it'll make your life more enjoyable. 

 

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