Why are you even here?

Tapey
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Why are you even here?

Here is a question or two, 

why do you come to this website, why is this debate important to you?

and

Why should I care if there is a god or not?

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


EXC
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Why do you want to know the

Why do you want to know the answers to these questions? Why is it important to you?

 


nigelTheBold
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I come here because I like

I come here because I like most of the folks who hang out here. Also, I can be as snarky, funny, jerky, and downright sarcastic as I like, and someone is going to find it funny. I like that.

The debate is important because I believe people need to think critically -- not just about their personal beliefs, but about everything. Too many people accept public policy, corporate actions, or church-based dogma based on uncritical or emotional reaction. Life would be much, much better if people objectively weighed the effects of their social positions. (Same-sex marriage is the obvious example, here.)

I don't care so much what people believe; more, I care at how they came to those beliefs. Both Eloise and Cpt_Pineapple have arrived at the belief in some sort of panentheistic god; but they did so based on their own logic, and thinking critically about it. The fact they don't think as I do on the subject is entirely irrelevant. It's only important that they actually thought about it.

There is no reason to care whether there's a god or not. If there is a god, life goes on as it does. If there is no god, life goes on as it does. Until the knowledge of god actually matters in our lives (such as the knowledge of physics is important to everyone), the conjecture of god is strictly academic.

At least, that's how I feel about it. Your results may vary.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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I come here because god told

I come here because god told me to....

 

 


Tapey
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general curiosity. And its

general curiosity. And its not really important to me, i don't care really. i barely even post in this section. Only reason I come to this forum is there are some interesting opinions here also habit, I don't remember how i got to coming here. 

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


Jeffrick
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Why, oh why??

 

 

 

         I came here because I am a total atheist  and it is comforting to meet up with other atheists en mass  in order for us to debate atheisim.  And it is always fun to gather with other adults and mass debate.

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


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Tapey wrote:why do you come

Tapey wrote:

why do you come to this website, why is this debate important to you?

For the hilarity


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No one's thrown me out yet 

No one's thrown me out yet

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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By coming here, I get to

By coming here, I get to practice philosophy. Plus I have no friends in real life, like you people.

Nah, I'm kidding. You guys are great.


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B/c nosepicking and

B/c nosepicking and jaywalking got old.


 


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Tapey wrote:Here is a

Tapey wrote:

Here is a question or two, 

why do you come to this website, why is this debate important to you?

and

Why should I care if there is a god or not?

Because people who believe, all over the world of all religions are involved in politics, and base their wants in law on what they think their deity wants them to do. AND these "chosen people" of power have their fingers on the button. I'd say it is extremely important to talk about and debate. The color of ignorance is orange and red and giant.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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:I

 Temporary escape from the religious hell I am in.

 

The only thing that competes with land space here against churches is restaurants.

 

I see more churches driving in any direction than gas stations, corner shops, and grocery stores combined.

 

 

The people here almost all hate gays because they learn it in their churches. I've been to one, and listened to them talking about it. 

 

They also like to target a few other things. The college campus I am on tried to start a wiccan organisation, and had everything destroyed that they did...posters, fliers, everything. In addition, they were scorned and people would quote bible verses at them telling them they are an abomination and deserved to die. Like "suffer not a witch to live" if I remember...and other things.

Then they setup anti-abortion groups and cover the campus with sidewalk chalk about how many "babies are murdered" and other things, and demand donations at every main building.

 

 

 

It is really, really frustrating to have to be subjected to things like this daily. I can't get a moment of peace even if I try...because they show up at my door, or when I go out. The last time I went to the grocery store someone tried to preach god to me there.

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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I come here in between

I come here in between surfing porn sites


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Seriously CC, what state do

Seriously CC, what state do you live in ?  Your description sounds like something out of a Steven King novel. Weird.

"Most people are ass holes." Jesus of Nazareth


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I originally found this site

I originally found this site when I discovered Youtube creationists a few years ago. I mostly came here to lurk for more of their funny videos and eventually ended up signing up and posting a bit. I stay because most of the people on this site are  fairly smart and I can learn a lot from them. Also, since I owe many of these people of introducing me to various concepts, I feel that I should do the same for others.

 

Of course, I hate religion's hold on the world. Even up here in Canada we have crazies and do feel that we would have a better run government if people didn't vote based on what their religion tells them.


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I'm here because I hate this

I'm here because I hate this place; and basically to say as much. That's done.  Look to stir up some controversy, maybe learn a thing or two... oh, and since you asked... god exists for man to find comfort in god. /sermon

unknowing stuff daily


Tapey
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Brian37 wrote:Tapey

Brian37 wrote:

Tapey wrote:

Here is a question or two, 

why do you come to this website, why is this debate important to you?

and

Why should I care if there is a god or not?

Because people who believe, all over the world of all religions are involved in politics, and base their wants in law on what they think their deity wants them to do. AND these "chosen people" of power have their fingers on the button. I'd say it is extremely important to talk about and debate. The color of ignorance is orange and red and giant.

 

 

 

And if  i said that crazy people will do crazy things regardless of religion?

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


Jeffrick
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I disagree.

ellenjanuary wrote:

I'm here because I hate this place; and basically to say as much. That's done.  Look to stir up some controversy, maybe learn a thing or two... oh, and since you asked... god exists for man to find comfort in god. /sermon

 

 

          Man invented gods to find comfort and explain the weather. We today can understand weather patterns in a way that those who invented religions could not.  Even then, in caveman times, I'm sure there were those  who said "I  don't think so!".

 

           Are you returning for more de bates enmass?

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

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ellenjanuary wrote:I'm here

ellenjanuary wrote:

I'm here because I hate this place; and basically to say as much. That's done.  Look to stir up some controversy, maybe learn a thing or two... oh, and since you asked... god exists for man to find comfort in god. /sermon

This kind of answers the question.

But that's only originally why I started posting. After that, it was learning. I've learned tons about philosophy, biology and chemistry in the past couple of years, and all because it's fun to debate. Then the social thing; laughing about stuff with new friends. It's a good time.

Anyway, I have to do something while trading, otherwise my brain will melt.

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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Tapey wrote: And if  i

Tapey wrote:

 And if  i said that crazy people will do crazy things regardless of religion?

Presently many 'crazies' hide behind the facade of religion, if the cover of religion is mitigated these individuals or those proximating them might recognize there is a problem with their behavior

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Tapey wrote:And if  i said

Tapey wrote:

And if  i said that crazy people will do crazy things regardless of religion?

Nothing wrong with taking away one of the biggest excuses for bad behaviour, is there?
 

 

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


Tapey
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aiia wrote:Tapey wrote: And


aiia wrote:

Tapey wrote:

 And if  i said that crazy people will do crazy things regardless of religion?

Presently many 'crazies' hide behind the facade of religion, if the cover of religion is mitigated these individuals or those proximating them might recognize there is a problem with their behavior

So if there was no religion they may realise that there is a problem with their behavior? Think about that please, why what would make them realise? Does the serial killer realise what he does is morally wrong? Yes obviously. Yet he does it anyway. It is the same, the fact that they are the way they are should tell you that religion doesn't matter. If you really believe people kill because god told them to well that is naive. Either they are really crazy in witch case removing religion won't do crap or they are trying to go to a mental asylum or get a lower sentance etc. or they have some other motive. 

 


 

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


Tapey
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HisWillness wrote:Tapey

HisWillness wrote:

Tapey wrote:

And if  i said that crazy people will do crazy things regardless of religion?

Nothing wrong with taking away one of the biggest excuses for bad behaviour, is there?
 

 

 

No nothing wrong with it, but notice how you said excuse not reason, thats because its isn't the reason for what happens. Rather deal with the reasons for the bad behaviour not the excuses.

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


HisWillness
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Tapey wrote:HisWillness

Tapey wrote:

HisWillness wrote:

Nothing wrong with taking away one of the biggest excuses for bad behaviour, is there?

No nothing wrong with it, but notice how you said excuse not reason, thats because its isn't the reason for what happens. Rather deal with the reasons for the bad behaviour not the excuses.

And you know the "reasons" behind "bad" behaviour, do you? (I was being tongue-in-cheek with "bad behaviour" -- I suppose I should have been more clear.) Human behaviour isn't clear at the best of times, so what kinds of behaviour would you like to deal with?

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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The injustice of the world .

The injustice of the world . You think religion even plays a part pffft. 

 

People don't blow things up unless they have a reason, unless they are crazy. Take away religion and its the same, some methods might change (like not blowing yourself up, but rather using guns). But without religion there is still the same violence. Just they say its about something else.

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


HisWillness
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Tapey wrote:But without

Tapey wrote:
But without religion there is still the same violence. Just they say its about something else.

Maybe you're discussing this with the wrong person, because I also think nationalism is a big excuse. There are lots of them, and it's the excuses I find unfortunate.

If your point is that human beings behave fairly predictably and like destruction, then I agree. That's how we behave. But your original question was asking about engaging in this debate. In my case, it's the rationalization that bothers me. Things like arguing for war because it threatens "homeland security" or arguing for blowing something up because it represents the infidel. Both strike me as particularly weak excuses to kill people not directly involved in the disagreement.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


Tapey
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HisWillness wrote:Tapey

HisWillness wrote:

Tapey wrote:
But without religion there is still the same violence. Just they say its about something else.

Maybe you're discussing this with the wrong person, because I also think nationalism is a big excuse. There are lots of them, and it's the excuses I find unfortunate.

If your point is that human beings behave fairly predictably and like destruction, then I agree. That's how we behave. But your original question was asking about engaging in this debate. In my case, it's the rationalization that bothers me. Things like arguing for war because it threatens "homeland security" or arguing for blowing something up because it represents the infidel. Both strike me as particularly weak excuses to kill people not directly involved in the disagreement.

and it is a fair point. 

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


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Tapey wrote:and it is a fair

Tapey wrote:

and it is a fair point. 

I suppose we know what your views on the military are if blowing things up (agressively) necessitates being crazy. Not that I disagree, but that's a strong statement in many circles.
 

 

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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HisWillness wrote:Tapey

HisWillness wrote:

Tapey wrote:

and it is a fair point. 

I suppose we know what your views on the military are if blowing things up (agressively) necessitates being crazy. Not that I disagree, but that's a strong statement in many circles.
 

 

Well yes, they are crazy, that is only if it isn't in self defense. The very fact that we make things that blow up (for one purpose, killing) shows something. 

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


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HisWillness wrote:Tapey

HisWillness wrote:

Tapey wrote:
But without religion there is still the same violence. Just they say its about something else.

Maybe you're discussing this with the wrong person, because I also think nationalism is a big excuse. There are lots of them, and it's the excuses I find unfortunate.

If your point is that human beings behave fairly predictably and like destruction, then I agree. That's how we behave. But your original question was asking about engaging in this debate. In my case, it's the rationalization that bothers me. Things like arguing for war because it threatens "homeland security" or arguing for blowing something up because it represents the infidel. Both strike me as particularly weak excuses to kill people not directly involved in the disagreement.

 

 

USA! USA! USA! USA! Christian Nation! Christian Nation! Christian Nation! Christian Nation!

 

 

..what. Tribalism is the thing to do man.

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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ClockCat wrote:USA! USA!

ClockCat wrote:

USA! USA! USA! USA! Christian Nation! Christian Nation! Christian Nation! Christian Nation!

..what. Tribalism is the thing to do man.

Sigh. It's so true.
 

 

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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nigelTheBold wrote:I come

nigelTheBold wrote:

I come here because I like most of the folks who hang out here. Also, I can be as snarky, funny, jerky, and downright sarcastic as I like, and someone is going to find it funny. I like that.

Ummm... well I'd avoid swimming in the Cape Cod waters. I think those snarks are down right deadly. (Note to readers: I am placing my bets on more tomatoes being thrown than money)

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I suppose because I am

I suppose because I am always waiting to see if there is an argument that convinces me I am wrong about the whole atheist thing.  My beliefs sprouted outside of external input...I did not read a book or have a debate that made turned me into an atheist, it was a gradual thing, and seeing this kind of debate played out helps me understand the questions I might not have asked myself.

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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I'm here because of a deep

I'm here because of a deep curiosity in many areas of thinking, life abroad, foreigners (you), english language, diverse opinions, intellect, and so on. I don't know anybody around like you guys. Also, nobody here discusses such a topics, has such a problems, and so on. This place is like a window into another world. If I'd let out a word about what we usually talk about, most of people around would think that I'm an asshole for showing off my intellect supposedly vastly superior to theirs. Here I can come out as an ocassional user of my brain, among other (ocassional) users of their brains and there's no big deal about it.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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 I come to this website

 I come to this website because every little bit of difference you can make in opening people's minds to rationality is a gain. It is important to confront those who have beliefs in any and all ways possible. It's also a fun place and educational to hear views from those around the world. 

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Tapey wrote:Here is a

Tapey wrote:

Here is a question or two, 

why do you come to this website,

I'm a lazy college student.

Quote:
why is this debate important to you?

If I'm wrong, I go to hell, right? That makes it pretty important.  

Quote:
Why should I care if there is a god or not?

Do you care if you go to hell? 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Jeffrick wrote:Man invented

Jeffrick wrote:
Man invented gods to find comfort and explain the weather. We today can understand weather patterns in a way that those who invented religions could not. 

facepalm.

Explain the weather? Really? What would anybody care for pseudo-explanations of weather in the premodern world? How many people, even today care for an explanation of the weather? Most of us are content to know if it's raining or not, so we can dress appropriately,  and not an explanation of the causes for the rain, all we care about is if it's going to pour or not. 

We seek knowledge for things we perceive a functional benefit from, and of things we have hobbyist curiosity about. I have no interest in the knowing about the material composition of Pokemon cards. Nor does a child being raised in a war torn region of the world, wonder about the composition of stars, such hobbyist pursuits are reserved for children of privilege. It's easy to reflect on the trivial, when there isn't dead bodies, the uncertainties of war, of loss, and suffering, to steal our reflections. 

I've always  been puzzled by the stupid sort of assumptions and beliefs about religion that many atheist expound, and I don't know what's more of a testament of an incompetent mind, the sort of rubbish beliefs, that God's were invented to explain the weather, or the sort of rubbish beliefs that assumes the world is only a few thousand years old.

 


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:o

theTwelve wrote:

Jeffrick wrote:
Man invented gods to find comfort and explain the weather. We today can understand weather patterns in a way that those who invented religions could not. 

facepalm.

Explain the weather? Really? What would anybody care for pseudo-explanations of weather in the premodern world? How many people, even today care for an explanation of the weather? Most of us are content to know if it's raining or not, so we can dress appropriately,  and not an explanation of the causes for the rain, all we care about is if it's going to pour or not. 

We seek knowledge for things we perceive a functional benefit from, and of things we have hobbyist curiosity about. I have no interest in the knowing about the material composition of Pokemon cards. Nor does a child being raised in a war torn region of the world, wonder about the composition of stars, such hobbyist pursuits are reserved for children of privilege. It's easy to reflect on the trivial, when there isn't dead bodies, the uncertainties of war, of loss, and suffering, to steal our reflections. 

I've always  been puzzled by the stupid sort of assumptions and beliefs about religion that many atheist expound, and I don't know what's more of a testament of an incompetent mind, the sort of rubbish beliefs, that God's were invented to explain the weather, or the sort of rubbish beliefs that assumes the world is only a few thousand years old.

 

 

 

Hurricane Katrina was God's Wrath for the gays.

 

Did you not know this? Only Pat Robertson, John Hagee, and other public figures in the United States speak the truth on the news anymore.

 

JH: All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they were recipients of the judgment of God for that.

 

The newspaper carried the story in our local area, that was not carried nationally, that there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came. And the promise of that parade was that it would was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other gay pride parades.

So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing. I know there are people who demur from that, but I believe that the Bible teaches that when you violate the law of God, that God brings punishment sometimes before the Day of Judgment, and I believe that the Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans.

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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ClockCat wrote:Hurricane

ClockCat wrote:
Hurricane Katrina was God's Wrath for the gays. Did you not know this? Only Pat Robertson, John Hagee, and other public figures in the United States speak the truth on the news anymore.

Ah yes, Hagee and Robertson use of God, was to explain the weather. Another, face palm.

Hagee, and Robertson used God and a calamity of the weather to abhor what they found to be immoral ways of living. It wasn't for the sake of giving an explanation for the weather, it was for the sake of conveying their sense of immorality, the equivalent of saying "they got what was coming to them", or Edward Peck quoted by Jeremiah Wright " America's chickens have come home to roost".

The reason for this sort of structures, are for the same reason we tell moral fables, with gruesome consequences, such as that of three little pigs. It's to use these calamities as means of conveying a supposedly valuable lesson, it's the lesson of the event that Hagee, and Roberston used the weather, even if they took their fable to be literal as well.

Hagee, and Roberston care little about the weather. You're not going find them attempting to give explanations of California's beautiful summers. Their use of weather was for merely a prop. 


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theTwelve wrote:Jeffrick

theTwelve wrote:

Jeffrick wrote:
Man invented gods to find comfort and explain the weather. We today can understand weather patterns in a way that those who invented religions could not. 

facepalm.

Explain the weather? Really? What would anybody care for pseudo-explanations of weather in the premodern world? How many people, even today care for an explanation of the weather? Most of us are content to know if it's raining or not, so we can dress appropriately,  and not an explanation of the causes for the rain, all we care about is if it's going to pour or not. 

We seek knowledge for things we perceive a functional benefit from, and of things we have hobbyist curiosity about. I have no interest in the knowing about the material composition of Pokemon cards. Nor does a child being raised in a war torn region of the world, wonder about the composition of stars, such hobbyist pursuits are reserved for children of privilege. It's easy to reflect on the trivial, when there isn't dead bodies, the uncertainties of war, of loss, and suffering, to steal our reflections. 

I've always  been puzzled by the stupid sort of assumptions and beliefs about religion that many atheist expound, and I don't know what's more of a testament of an incompetent mind, the sort of rubbish beliefs, that God's were invented to explain the weather, or the sort of rubbish beliefs that assumes the world is only a few thousand years old.

 

 

I imagine he meant what he said, not what you are interpreting.  "Man invented gods to find comfort and explain the weather."  You seem to be saying his point was that modern people believe in god to explain the weather, but I honestly don't know how you got that from his very clear sentence.

 

His point is valid.  Religions often came about to explain unidentifiable phenomena.  Nowadays people often cling to religion because of fear of the unknown after death (Mormanism), a lack of understanding of coincidence (new age), and gullibility regarding ghosts, psychics, etc. (Scientology), and a general lack of understanding about human biology and natural science (Christianity), and a basic need for a warm blanket when they stare into the unknown (all of them), but it also used to be about things like the weather, the sun, disease, etc.  Heck, I still know people who pray for good weather, so even that is still somewhat valid.

 

I always love how many debating theists defend the concept of religion by ignoring everything about it that does not make sense including many of the very common beliefs.  Many of us where religious and know exactly what kind of crazy stuff goes on.  When people pray for healing, they are really *praying for healing*.  Then they see a "miracle" when someone recovers.  Please.  Show me an amputee who wakes up with a new arm, then I will be impressed.

 

You might then say those are fringe beliefs, but in the United States that is obviously false.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote: You seem

mellestad wrote:
 You seem to be saying his point was that modern people believe in god to explain the weather, but I honestly don't know how you got that from his very clear sentence.

Apparently you didn't read, here allow me to quote myself: " Why would anybody care for pseudo-explanations of weather in the premodern world?" Are you going to argue that we have this passionate  and universal biological craving to know these things? I'm guessing my religious mother, who has no interest in these things at all, is a biological abnormality. 

But I'm going to stop here, because amusingly curious to hear you expound on your ideas more. So tell me again, why would anybody care about pseudo-explanations for the weather in the premodern world? What sort of questions do you believe religions were attempting to answer, and why would individuals be curious about these questions anyway, particularly on a fundamental level. 

Quote:
His point is valid.  Religions often came about to explain unidentifiable phenomena. 

Religion didn't come about to explain unidentifiable phenomena, but rather to cope with them, and the necessity of preserving hope. Science is in the business of explaining stuff, religion is in the business of preserving a relationship to stuff. But this seems to be over the head of our dimwitted atheist. 

Quote:
Nowadays people often cling to religion because of fear of the unknown after death

People don't have a fear of the unknown after death. In the pagan mythology the afterlife wasn't a desirable place to be, living was where it's at, and this sort of notion of life and after life, is retained in the Old Testament, that doesn't get the images of the exalted after life of the Christian writings. But in all these tradition, their mythologies concerning death weren't there because of a fear of what happens after we die, but rather coping with dying, particularly senseless versions of it. The theist doesn't tell his grieving friend, that his loved one is in a better place, because the friend is worried about what lays beyond the grave, but rather for his friend to cope with his loss in the here and now.

But you seemed to have a very warped and embarrassing understanding of the human psyche. 

Quote:
I always love how many debating theists defend the concept of religion by ignoring everything about it that does not make sense including many of the very common beliefs.  

Well, this is rather dumb criticism of me, when I'm not a theist. My understanding of religion has nothing to do with my personal beliefs, but rather out of years of learning, I hold an objective and analytical perspective of religion as a natural phenomena. I'm just not the lazy thinker such as the atheist on this forum are, who settle for the understanding of things that coddle their sensibilities. I don't hold a view on religion, because it sounds good to the choir, or because it receives applause, but rather because they are based and grounded in the reality of these beliefs, such as the history, context, culture, psyche, values, of the time in which the traditions were composed.

So don't accuse me of having some sort of magical theist bias, because I'd wager I'm far more read and this area, with a far better contemplation and intellect on these matters, than anyone on this forum that's for sure.

Quote:
Many of us where religious and know exactly what kind of crazy stuff goes on.  

And many of you are wounded souls, whose passion and emotions in revulsion to religion, retard their ability to critically and intelligently examine it. And hence why I often claim that many atheist are as dimwitted about religion, as creationist are about science. 


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theTwelve wrote:mellestad

theTwelve wrote:

mellestad wrote:
 You seem to be saying his point was that modern people believe in god to explain the weather, but I honestly don't know how you got that from his very clear sentence.

Apparently you didn't read, here allow me to quote myself: " Why would anybody care for pseudo-explanations of weather in the premodern world?" Are you going to argue that we have this passionate  and universal biological craving to know these things? I'm guessing my religious mother, who has no interest in these things at all, is a biological abnormality. 

But I'm going to stop here, because amusingly curious to hear you expound on your ideas more. So tell me again, why would anybody care about pseudo-explanations for the weather in the premodern world? What sort of questions do you believe religions were attempting to answer, and why would individuals be curious about these questions anyway, particularly on a fundamental level. 

Quote:
His point is valid.  Religions often came about to explain unidentifiable phenomena. 

Religion didn't come about to explain unidentifiable phenomena, but rather to cope with them, and the necessity of preserving hope. Science is in the business of explaining stuff, religion is in the business of preserving a relationship to stuff. But this seems to be over the head of our dimwitted atheist. 

Quote:
Nowadays people often cling to religion because of fear of the unknown after death

People don't have a fear of the unknown after death. In the pagan mythology the afterlife wasn't a desirable place to be, living was where it's at, and this sort of notion of life and after life, is retained in the Old Testament, that doesn't get the images of the exalted after life of the Christian writings. But in all these tradition, their mythologies concerning death weren't there because of a fear of what happens after we die, but rather coping with dying, particularly senseless versions of it. The theist doesn't tell his grieving friend, that his loved one is in a better place, because the friend is worried about what lays beyond the grave, but rather for his friend to cope with his loss in the here and now.

But you seemed to have a very warped and embarrassing understanding of the human psyche. 

Quote:
I always love how many debating theists defend the concept of religion by ignoring everything about it that does not make sense including many of the very common beliefs.  

Well, this is rather dumb criticism of me, when I'm not a theist. My understanding of religion has nothing to do with my personal beliefs, but rather out of years of learning, I hold an objective and analytical perspective of religion as a natural phenomena. I'm just not the lazy thinker such as the atheist on this forum are, who settle for the understanding of things that coddle their sensibilities. I don't hold a view on religion, because it sounds good to the choir, or because it receives applause, but rather because they are based and grounded in the reality of these beliefs, such as the history, context, culture, psyche, values, of the time in which the traditions were composed.

So don't accuse me of having some sort of magical theist bias, because I'd wager I'm far more read and this area, with a far better contemplation and intellect on these matters, than anyone on this forum that's for sure.

Quote:
Many of us where religious and know exactly what kind of crazy stuff goes on.  

And many of you are wounded souls, whose passion and emotions in revulsion to religion, retard their ability to critically and intelligently examine it. And hence why I often claim that many atheist are as dimwitted about religion, as creationist are about science. 

 

I see, so to reply you go on a rant about how stupid we all are.  Indeed, I am humbled by your massive intellect, if only I had seen the light sooner I could have avoided embarrassing myself!  And so mature and humble too! Smiling

 

Your points are all silly.

 

1) You are saying that primitive cultures did not create religion to explain nature?  Ra, Thor, etc.?  I even point out that many modern people, with the full understanding of science, still rely on a deity to explain nature, and even something as commonplace as the weather.

 

2) People don't have a fear of the unknown after death?  "The theist doesn't tell his grieving friend, that his loved one is in a better place, because the friend is worried about what lays beyond the grave, but rather for his friend to cope with his loss in the here and now."???  Have you ever met a theist?  Have you ever been to a theistic funeral?  As an atheist, I have spoken to many theists who say, point blank, that they could not be an atheist because they would be terrified of the nothingness after death.  I think you are the one who does not understand theists.

 

3) Your overall "argument" is simply to insult us and claim we know nothing, and we don't understand you, because your intellectual insights are just too incredible for our tiny minds to comprehend.  Awesome, I give up.  Praise Jesus.  Now please, go away.

 

I also joined this site because I, apparently, love to "debate" with people like Twelve.  God help me.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:I see, so to

mellestad wrote:
I see, so to reply you go on a rant about how stupid we all are.

I don't think you're stupid, I just think some of your assumptions are stupid. But let's work on them shall we.

Quote:
Indeed, I am humbled by your massive intellect.

good, that was the intent. 

Quote:
Your points are all silly.

Ah, we'll see.

Quote:
People don't have a fear of the unknown after death?  

The fear of death, is the fear of the loss of things we value in life. A man who values nothing is not afraid to die. We fear death, because the loss of our relationships, of no longer seeing our children, no more memories or laughter. 

If i don't see the value in living anymore than death is no longer feared. If I were to torture a man continuously, eventually he'd beg to die, rather than live suffering the way he has. 

You read your friends statement wrong when he said he feared nothingness  of the grave. You took this to mean he was afraid of the unknown beyond the grave. But nothingness is not beyond the grave, it is the grave. He wants to believe those valued relationships with his family and friends, his joy, his happiness, carries over, and doesn't end, and he fears losing these things, that's why the godless grave scares him, it's not what's beyond the grave he fears, but the nothingness of itself. It's the lifeless body of the casket he fears.

Is my point silly? I'm sure others have gotten it, have you figured it out?

Quote:
1) You are saying that primitive cultures did not create religion to explain nature?  

No, they didn't. But I want you to use your head to figure out why this is so. Why would they desire explanations of nature? What sort of functional purpose would such knowledge have served in the premodern world? The sooner you contemplate these questions, the sooner you'll find your error. 

Quote:
Ra, Thor, etc.?

Where do these supposed "explanations" of the weather occur, where do Ra, and Thor appear? They appear in mythologies, in a narrative, and the weather, Ra, and Thor all serve a purpose in these narratives of conveying the morals and the values of those narratives, the values of being heroic, moral, seeking justice, virtuous, the pitfalls of pride and imprudence, etc..

The function of mythology wasn't the equivalent of the function of science book, but the function of cherished narratives. The ancient literally believed their life was as a narrative, the life itself held some sense of meaning to it, that waxes poetically about it. They held a poetic view of life, that they believe was an objective reality, that their mythology, their religion, helped to convey.

Still too silly for? Or do we keep going?


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theTwelve wrote:mellestad

theTwelve wrote:

mellestad wrote:
I see, so to reply you go on a rant about how stupid we all are.

I don't think you're stupid, I just think some of your assumptions are stupid. But let's work on them shall we.

Quote:
Indeed, I am humbled by your massive intellect.

good, that was the intent. 

Quote:
Your points are all silly.

Ah, we'll see.

Quote:
People don't have a fear of the unknown after death?  

The fear of death, is the fear of the loss of things we value in life. A man who values nothing is not afraid to die. We fear death, because the loss of our relationships, of no longer seeing our children, no more memories or laughter. 

If i don't see the value in living anymore than death is no longer feared. If I were to torture a man continuously, eventually he'd beg to die, rather than live suffering the way he has. 

You read your friends statement wrong when he said he feared nothingness  of the grave. You took this to mean he was afraid of the unknown beyond the grave. But nothingness is not beyond the grave, it is the grave. He wants to believe those valued relationships with his family and friends, his joy, his happiness, carries over, and doesn't end, and he fears losing these things, that's why the godless grave scares him, it's not what's beyond the grave he fears, but the nothingness of itself. It's the lifeless body of the casket he fears.

Is my point silly? I'm sure others have gotten it, have you figured it out?

Quote:
1) You are saying that primitive cultures did not create religion to explain nature?  

No, they didn't. But I want you to use your head to figure out why this is so. Why would they desire explanations of nature? What sort of functional purpose would such knowledge have served in the premodern world? The sooner you contemplate these questions, the sooner you'll find your error. 

Quote:
Ra, Thor, etc.?

Where do these supposed "explanations" of the weather occur, where do Ra, and Thor appear? They appear in mythologies, in a narrative, and the weather, Ra, and Thor all serve a purpose in these narratives of conveying the morals and the values of those narratives, the values of being heroic, moral, seeking justice, virtuous, the pitfalls of pride and imprudence, etc..

The function of mythology wasn't the equivalent of the function of science book, but the function of cherished narratives. The ancient literally believed their life was as a narrative, the life itself held some sense of meaning to it, that waxes poetically about it. They held a poetic view of life, that they believe was an objective reality, that their mythology, their religion, helped to convey.

Still too silly for? Or do we keep going?

 

On the death stuff, it sounds like you are just playing with words.  People fear the loss of the sum of their lives, and they fear that the unknowns behyond death might make that loss a reality, and so they accept something improbable because it gives the illusion of immortality.  You are trying to be clever, but I don't see how you are adding to the discussion.

 

My point is people use religion to explain, and even to change the physical world.  You did not want bad weather, you made a sacrifice to the weather god.  You wanted to win a war, you prayed to the war god.  They had the human instinct to strive for understanding of reality, and so they manufactured religious constructs to explain the things that were beyond their understanding.

 

Being condescending does not help your point, it only makes you look like an ass.  But again, you are the genius here.  You understand human nature fully, including my own motivations, everyone on this board, and even my personal friends.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:On the death

mellestad wrote:
On the death stuff, it sounds like you are just playing with words.

If anything, is your misuse of words that's the problem. You claimed your theist friends said they couldn't be atheist because their afraid of the nothingness of death, and from this you suggested that they were afraid of the unknown beyond death. They're not afraid of an unknown, their afraid of a known. Claiming you're afraid to die cuz you're no longer with your loved ones, is not a fear of the unknown. But apparently you can't understand something that simple, and then you accuse me of playing with words, and having silly views. 

Quote:
You did not want bad weather, you made a sacrifice to the weather god.  You wanted to win a war, you prayed to the war god.  They had the human instinct to strive for understanding of reality, and so they manufactured religious constructs to explain the things that were beyond their understanding.

Oh Jesus. You're just all over the place here. Let's see if you understand this simple thought. Suggesting to my daughter she should wear a jacket because it's chilly outside, it's not me explaining the weather to her. 

I'm curious how old are you? I'm guessing you're still in high school, am I wrong?

Now, here I'm going to ask you the same question again, for the third time:  " Why would anybody care for pseudo-explanations of weather in the premodern world?" What function would have such knowledge served?

Quote:
You understand human nature fully, including my own motivations, everyone on this board, and even my personal friends.

I'll tell you what, you go ask your personal theist friends if they are "afraid of the unknown beyond the grave", and let me know what the say. In fact why don't you just bring em here, I'd wager they'd be far more in agreement with my assessment of their theism than yours. Here's your opportunity to make me eat my own dog poop. 

 


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theTwelve wrote:ClockCat

theTwelve wrote:

ClockCat wrote:
Hurricane Katrina was God's Wrath for the gays. Did you not know this? Only Pat Robertson, John Hagee, and other public figures in the United States speak the truth on the news anymore.

Ah yes, Hagee and Robertson use of God, was to explain the weather. Another, face palm.

Hagee, and Robertson used God and a calamity of the weather to abhor what they found to be immoral ways of living. It wasn't for the sake of giving an explanation for the weather, it was for the sake of conveying their sense of immorality, the equivalent of saying "they got what was coming to them", or Edward Peck quoted by Jeremiah Wright " America's chickens have come home to roost".

The reason for this sort of structures, are for the same reason we tell moral fables, with gruesome consequences, such as that of three little pigs.

I'm sorry, stop right there. Was it a fable or an explanation for the weather?

"Immorality, therefore destructive weather" is not a comment on the cause of weather? Because it seems pretty clear.

 

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theTwelve wrote:Apparently

theTwelve wrote:
Apparently you didn't read, here allow me to quote myself: " Why would anybody care for pseudo-explanations of weather in the premodern world?"

They cared enough to preserve Pliny the Elder's Natural History, a book with quite a few pseudo-explanations of weather.

 

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I'm going to start

I'm going to start over.

 

Your original point about the weather makes it a triviality.  "We seek knowledge for things we perceive a functional benefit from, and of things we have hobbyist curiosity about."  The thing is, to premodern societies it was not a triviality.  They needed to understand it, and wanted to control it, and religion helped them do that.  Your explanation as religion as narrative does not explain why they used religious ritual as a method of control for the natural world.  Your mom might not care about the weather, but a stone age farmer sure would.  All the things I mentioned, like war, disease, weather, etc. were live or die parts of their lives, they *did* need an explanation, and religion helped with that.  Floods killed and and wiped out crops, or helped you if you lived in a delta.  Droughts killed your whole family.  (Edit: None of us are claiming religion rose out of nothing more than a need to explain the weather, in case that is what you are thinking, we are aware it is more complex than that...but religion as an explanation for nature is a valid point, regardless of how curious your mom is)

 

I don't disagree with you on your point that religion also served as a narrative, of course it did.  But that is not all it did.  When people see something in nature (volcano, storm, disease) and attributed it to a god, they are using religion to explain something.

 

Let me use my daughter as an example, pretend I am a premodern man:  I am scared she might die of the flu.  I don't understand the flu, but the priest tells me it is an evil spirit, and that sounds good to me...so I proceed with a ritual to drive that spirit out.  For me, it is life and death, it is not a triviality, and I have no other explanation.  I might not be terribly concerned about the why on a personal level, but the priest seems to be concerned about it.  If people where not capable of using religion to explain nature, why

 

Your ranting about death...well, whatever.  I have had discussions with my theists friends about the unknown, and I don't see why I should not take them at their word that they meant what they said.  I know I was scared of the same thing when I was a theist first doubting my religion.  I was scared more of nothingness than hell.  I mean, come on...you even have the nerve to say that when a theist tells a friend their dead relative is in a better place, they don't even mean it, instead it is all about deeper psychobabble.  Not always, I imagine it is usually just a platitude, but sometimes they really feel better because their loved one is in a better place.  I don't know if you are familiar enough with traditional American religious culture.

 

And please, stop with the personal attacks!  Jesus Christ, being a dick does not help convince me you are right, it just makes you a dick.  I am a long ways past high school, and past college as well, so fuck off, you immature little prick.  I'll try it now.  I think part of your problem might be you are a college kid surrounded by "smart" kids who are also in college, and you don't have much experience with average religious folk who have not had the benefit of a liberal education.  (I'm not saying you are, I am just trying to make a point.  Just debate and quit being a rude and obnoxious pest)

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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butterbattle wrote:Tapey


butterbattle wrote:

Tapey wrote:

Here is a question or two, 

why do you come to this website,

I'm a lazy college student.

Quote:
why is this debate important to you?

If I'm wrong, I go to hell, right? That makes it pretty important.  

Quote:
Why should I care if there is a god or not?

Do you care if you go to hell? 

 

Not really, as I understand it when it comes to christianity its either burn and be bored or pray and be bored, being bored is the common thing whenever eternaty is involved, burning may be the less boring option though.

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


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Don't worry - you won't feel the burning

 

I only found this site the other day. It's a nice place to visit.

My whole family are fundamentalist christians with all the singing and carrying on. At family gatherings they delight in telling me I'm hell-bound.

Despite the wild indoctrination and hysterical evangelical camps I just had a growing feeling I was talking to myself.

My parents' conviction that satan was a force in the world and all the people around us pawns of the devil got more and more insane.

When you get older you start making your own judgements about morality.

There was a point in my life when I realised Jesus was not my friend. If the gospel was to be believed he was a man who had burst into

my bedroom at night with can of petrol in one hand and lit match in the other screaming "Love me or you're dead!"

Modern christians generally rationlise this fundamental away but the bible teaches that jesus died to save us from god's hate.

No one has ever been able to explain to me how the actual forgiveness slipped out the side door.

I quit my confirmation classes when I was 14 because the preacher sat us down and sternly said that if anyone in the room

did not really believe in god and finished the class and took communion they'd be guilty of the un-named sin and would be especially

punished. The unbelievers had to get up and leave. We had 5 minutes to decide. I was the only one who got up.

I avoided the sin of sins and if god proves to be real I will be burned eternally when my earthly body with it's billions of nerve endings has

died leaving me ambivalent to things like temperature, or any sense of anything at all, really.

My early upbringing was a violent religious nightmare - thankfully boarding school intervened - my dad was a preacher, my mother a

missionary. Every time billy graham came to town dad would drag the whole family up for group forgiveness.

Perhaps dad was asking forgiveness for belting the crap out of us kids though to be fair, mum was a lot worse.

And Mum had the vile habit of praying before each thrashing for the Lord's involvement. God was right there, watching, egging on every blow.

Unsurprisingly all those beatings and religious threats morphed into a single point of pain.

It's taken me the longest time to realise that it's ok not to believe in god. But I still backslide into my old fears.

Some of you might chuckle but when discoveries are made like that weeny hominid on the Indonesian Island of Flores that's only 14,000 years old

and the recent research into the mechanisms of evolution inside cells I again feel the ecstasy of knowing that we've invented god.

My brothers laugh at me for fearing a diety I don't believe in but you have to go through it from the earliest age to understand the broken place

where the comprehension of your first little person is terrorised out of shape.

When I read some of the posts on this site I can feel there are other wounded people here who don't come to this debate only on a philosophical level.

I'll never be free of my religious upbringing. But talking about it with you folks on this site helps. Thanks for being here.

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Excellant post

Excellant post Atheistextremist

Yep I am in a perpetual state of recurring bewilderment in reaction to the many theists' behaviors and beliefs.

 When I read your post my reaction was to remember how I felt most of my life, something was wrong, everyone but myself thought there was an invisible "thing" controling every event, every gust of wind, and you had to kiss its ass or burn in fucking hell. The only 'hell' I could see was the consequences that might occur get if I didnt at least put on the show of kissing this invisible thing's ass.

You walking out of confirmation classes is commendable

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.