Hollistic Medicine?

Aedus
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Hollistic Medicine?

So I was going through the irrational precepts & was surprised to find holistic medicine at the bottom. First off, what does hollistic medicine have to do with anything? And why is it automatically bad? Wouldn't you just be inclined to use whatever works, not necessarily what's been "scientifically verified" considering that some medicines the FDA approves are far more dangerous than any hollistic medicine? I don't want to get into the nitty gritty of how screwed up our healthcare system is & how the pharmaceutical companies are manipulating everyone into thinking that it's ok to be sick, but isn't this a little close-minded for a so-called rational site?

I had joint pain for over 2 years. All the doctors I went to who only know how to prescribe drugs told me it was hopeless & that I should either get surgery or take steroid shots which only make the problem come back later much worse. The real problem? I had a systemic candida infection and as soon as I started treating it it went away. The doctors who only know how to prescribe drugs would have never figured that one out. All you have to do is leave America & go to any other country to see how retarded our healthcare system is. But hey, if you guys enjoy being sick and think it's normal then that's your prerogative.

In general it's bad to hold anything on a pedestral - whether it's science or religion. The thing about science is that it's not science just because someone says it is. The pharmaceutical industry only cares about making money, and the FDA is misusing science to that end.


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Aedus wrote:I had joint pain

Aedus wrote:
I had joint pain for over 2 years. All the doctors I went to who only know how to prescribe drugs told me it was hopeless & that I should either get surgery or take steroid shots which only make the problem come back later much worse. The real problem? I had a systemic candida infection and as soon as I started treating it it went away. The doctors who only know how to prescribe drugs would have never figured that one out. All you have to do is leave America & go to any other country to see how retarded our healthcare system is. But hey, if you guys enjoy being sick and think it's normal then that's your prerogative.


So ... you took an antifungal agent and got better, right? That would be science helping you out there. Nobody's arguing that there aren't shitty doctors (then again, candidiasis is difficult to test for), just crappy, untested treatments.

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Aedus
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HisWillness wrote:So ... you

HisWillness wrote:
So ... you took an antifungal agent and got better, right?

Nay, I went on a strict diet + probiotics and didn't have to deal with any side-effects of chemicals. Perhaps my personal experience wasn't the best example, but I know of cases where alternative medicine does in fact work.

HisWillness wrote:
(then again, candidiasis is difficult to test for),

Exactly - if I stuck with scientifically verified methods then I would still be in pain today & probably worse off than I originally was.

 

All I'm saying is that you should do whatever works. Sure there are a bunch of BS untested treatments, but hopefully most people are smart enough to be able to figure out the difference eh? I just feel that this "advice" was written by people who haven't actually been horribly sick or know what it feels like to be so sick that you're willing to try any method. Take a look at all the cancer sufferers who resort to alternative medicine, etc.


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Aedus wrote:All I'm saying

Aedus wrote:
All I'm saying is that you should do whatever works.

I agree with that, and know quite a few physicians who would say the same thing (lots of doctors in the family). Where it starts to get hazy is in the area of snake oils, etc.

For most people, a change of diet can have a fantastic effect on the body. I would never underestimate the positive effect of a proper diet, from what I've seen.

Aedus wrote:
I just feel that this "advice" was written by people who haven't actually been horribly sick or know what it feels like to be so sick that you're willing to try any method. Take a look at all the cancer sufferers who resort to alternative medicine, etc.

Those would actually be the people I would want to protect from snake oil the most. Homeopathy, which is basically water + lies, would be a good example. If you sell that water for $9, and it's still regular water, but you tell them it has "memories" of something that will heal them, then you're selling snake oil. I wouldn't want to see some poor bastard who had cancer feel better from the placebo effect, and then lose all his money trying to "cure" himself. That seems mean.

But yeah, if you get an oriental massage, and your shoulder stops aching, who would I be to object? Whatever works is right.

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Medicine couldnt save life


Medicine couldnt save life if its going to leave for heaven.Swayze died also because of pancreatic cancer.Patrick Swayze,victim of pancreatic cancer who had just passed away after giving word that his cancer had spread to his liver and that what his doctors told him to countdown to the end. The actor preferred to discontinue taking painkilling drugs while he was making up for his movie "The Beast". Patrick Swayze has been a greatful icon of the entertainment industry, he was that hunky actor who danced his way into moviegoers' hearts with "Dirty Dancing" and then broke them with "Ghost" died after a battle with pancreatic cancer at the age of 57. Death of Patrick really made some sad and bother about it.Family of him, even theyre with enough money spent for the medical treatments of Swayze might ask for emergency help financially.We hope that there would be  Patrick Swayze  again in entertainment  industry .


 


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Aedus wrote:HisWillness

Aedus wrote:

HisWillness wrote:
So ... you took an antifungal agent and got better, right?

Nay, I went on a strict diet + probiotics and didn't have to deal with any side-effects of chemicals. Perhaps my personal experience wasn't the best example, but I know of cases where alternative medicine does in fact work.

HisWillness wrote:
(then again, candidiasis is difficult to test for),

Exactly - if I stuck with scientifically verified methods then I would still be in pain today & probably worse off than I originally was.

 

All I'm saying is that you should do whatever works. Sure there are a bunch of BS untested treatments, but hopefully most people are smart enough to be able to figure out the difference eh? I just feel that this "advice" was written by people who haven't actually been horribly sick or know what it feels like to be so sick that you're willing to try any method. Take a look at all the cancer sufferers who resort to alternative medicine, etc.

Do what works? Great - just make sure it's actually working and not just masking symptoms.

There are methods out there that we know just don't work but people still use them. Homeopathy comes to mind.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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I personally use alternative

I personally use alternative medicine more than the standard one and it works very well.

I keep getting scary messages of what happened to those who were unfortunate enough to fall into clutches of doctors. One woman from among our friends made herself gradually a bad malfunction of thyroid gland, because of a really unhealthy diet and life style. Her eyes were for a longer time terribly pulled out of head, almost as if they should fall out, plus some hyperactivity and weird behavior. Finally doctors got her and hospitalized her. But they didn't know what to do. They guessed between inferior function of a thyroid gland, and exaggerated function. They guessed wrongly, although the symptoms were obvious. (exaggerated function, if I remember) The incorrect medicine made that woman much worse, so she was taken to another hospital, where the doctors finally gave her a correct medicine and she's now recovering. The hospital she was in is otherwise well known for it's professionals on heart surgery. But obviously, being an expert on only one organ is not enough. Vivat holistic medicine!

Our family needs the doctor mainly for paperwork.

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It is simple. If something

It is simple. If something is to be verified it must be done by replication and falsification with blind control groups and independent verificatiion. It cannot be done through marketing, Even many, not all medications we buy are sold, not through honest testing, but through bias drug companies who want to make a buck.

The reason drug companies are rightfully not trusted, in many cases  is because it is not a matter of holding up scientific method, but seeking a way to make a square peg fit into a round hole in order to line their pockets.

Have you ever watched an Extenze commercial, who read's the fine print?  No, you are so focused on tits and ass you want to buy it because you think you will get a bigger dick. IT IS A SCAM!

Hollistic "medicine" simply hasn't learned to out compete the mainstream drug companies.

HAVING SAID THAT, my point is that humans are flawed and humans have bias. BUT, I'd rather risk my life on established medicine beyond drug company bias than to trust it to somebody who merely has a naked assertion.

 

 

 

 

 

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Luminon wrote:I personally

Luminon wrote:
I personally use alternative medicine more than the standard one and it works very well.

You're in your 20s! Of course it works very well. Not doing anything would work very well.

 

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HisWillness wrote:Luminon

HisWillness wrote:

Luminon wrote:
I personally use alternative medicine more than the standard one and it works very well.

You're in your 20s! Of course it works very well. Not doing anything would work very well.

Today, the situation is different. Babies are polluted with hundreds of toxins while in embryonic stadium and all the time since then. Today, young doesn't necessarily mean healthy, we're exposed to such a toxins that our parents and grandparents weren't.
Not doing anything would mean to suffer by hay fever all the time, though previous generations worked with hay daily without a slightest problem.

 

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I have less of a problem

I have less of a problem with holistic/alternative medicine than homeopathy.

Something about "the weaker the soluton - the stronger the medicine" bothers me.

What's your postion, Luminon?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Luminon wrote:HisWillness

Luminon wrote:

HisWillness wrote:

Luminon wrote:
I personally use alternative medicine more than the standard one and it works very well.

You're in your 20s! Of course it works very well. Not doing anything would work very well.

Today, the situation is different. Babies are polluted with hundreds of toxins while in embryonic stadium and all the time since then. Today, young doesn't necessarily mean healthy, we're exposed to such a toxins that our parents and grandparents weren't.

Strangely, we're living longer, and young people are still less in danger of death and disease than the very young and very old. Y'know, the way it has been since the dawn of time.

Luminon wrote:
Not doing anything would mean to suffer by hay fever all the time, though previous generations worked with hay daily without a slightest problem.

Allergies weren't even classified until the 60s. That's like saying the rate of schizophrenia went up rapidly after it was first introduced as a diagnosis.

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jcgadfly wrote:I have less

jcgadfly wrote:

I have less of a problem with holistic/alternative medicine than homeopathy.

Something about "the weaker the soluton - the stronger the medicine" bothers me.

What's your postion, Luminon?

My stance is, that homeopathy is not a chemical medicine, but "informatic". The water or other medium eventually is infused by a certain agens by long-termed, intense regular shaking, which doesn't occur in nature. The water is thereby infused with information, which is stored on molecular level. I'll now rummage through my memory a little, so it might be unprecise, but the information is reputedly stored in the angles between atoms and molecules of the water.
Cells of the body react on this information, not on the non-present chemicals, this is how the nerve and endocrine systems are stimulated and "instructed" to act in a certain way. If they manage to react, and if that reaction is sufficient, the patient should get better.
One my source states, that a certain purity and sensitivity of body is needed for the homeopathy to work. My vegetarianic mother for example is so sensitive, that she can just smell a cork of wine bottle and she says she's drunk. But I doubt that an average dissipated American will be so sensitive.

HisWillness wrote:

Strangely, we're living longer, and young people are still less in danger of death and disease than the very young and very old. Y'know, the way it has been since the dawn of time.

We're living louger, but we're not healthier. The science which makes us live longer also brings more problems which make sure that we will always need it. We're in a pretty absurd situation, if someone invents a medicine on something, the process of making it, packing, distributing and disposing (and don't forget the swallowing it) damages the nature (including ourelves) in other ways, so that it's like fighting a hydra. Sometimes I think that the goal is not to make people healthy, but to make money and make people dependent. In that case, it would give sense. This is how marketing works. If there is not a market, create it. If the market declines, stimulate it.
 

HisWillness wrote:
Allergies weren't even classified until the 60s. That's like saying the rate of schizophrenia went up rapidly after it was first introduced as a diagnosis.
Allergies weren't classified, probably because there was no need to classify them. It is pretty easy to tell a person having allergia from a person without it, so I really doubt that allergies could ever escape doctors' attention. I live in a rural area where taking care of livestock always required to make and store hay every year, and my grandmother says that in these times she never heard of anyone having allergia, ever. Now it's taken almost as a normal thing. I guess something is wrong.

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I think alternative medicine

I think alternative medicine can be dangerous, in that it often attempts to invalidate mainline medical opinion.  For example, I have multiple sclerosis. The approved treatment for my type (relapsing/remitting) is to take injections of interferon. Obviously, this can be unpleasant, so alternative medicine thrives in this area. All over the net and at MS Society events you can find testimonials of people who "cured" their MS through special diets, Vitamin B supplements, all kinds of shit. It's scary that gullible people will stop taking their interferon for dietary fixes.

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:I

 Alternative medicine can be a good thing in some areas. Mostly in the United States, in areas of preventative medicine.

 

The AMA does not push preventative medicine much at all. Instead it pushes training for reactive medicine. Preventative medicine is standard in most of the rest of the developed world.

 

My friend made a visit to Japan and was told he needed to fix his diet, get more exercise, and stop being lazy. He was also directed to drink more green tea, as it functions as a metabolic stimulant. In addition, they told him to eat less sugary products, and use the tea as a replacement for soda with meals.

 

While this seems common sense, it helps to tell people rather than prescribing mass quantities of drugs after a problem has surfaced instead of looking to solve behavioral problems that lead to illnesses.

 

There is no "debate" however about the things he was being told to do having an effect. The difference is approach to how medicine is practiced. Behaviors that lead to illness should be focused on, when the U.S. has an epidemic of entirely preventable diseases. 

 

 

 

I do disagree strongly with any "cures" that have unknown backgrounds, unknown effects, or are simply marketed and hyped as an "answer". This includes drugs pushed through by pharmaceutical companies that only have one study done in-house and then market it directly to people, after gaining approval with no human studies. It also includes folk remedies with no basis on reality, and "miracle" plants/drugs/solutions.

 

There is no such thing as a "toxin" cleaner, for example. That is what the liver does.

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Garbage in equals garbage

Garbage in equals garbage out.

Just recently 2 people died because they WERE NOT in a controlled medical environment. Because of the FALSE equivocation of sweating releasing toxins, some morons paid thousands to boil themselves to death because some myth lovers equated a mere steam bath to magic.

THAT IS NOT TO SAY that scientists or doctors don't make mistakes, THEY DO.

BUT would these same people who believed in spirits do the same thing if it wasn't merely a vacation? Would they, if they knew that their kidney or heart had a defect that could kill them, would they say "all it will take to cure me is some time in a steam bath not controled by a medical expert?"

 

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Sailorlal wrote:I think

Sailorlal wrote:

I think alternative medicine can be dangerous, in that it often attempts to invalidate mainline medical opinion.  For example, I have multiple sclerosis. The approved treatment for my type (relapsing/remitting) is to take injections of interferon. Obviously, this can be unpleasant, so alternative medicine thrives in this area. All over the net and at MS Society events you can find testimonials of people who "cured" their MS through special diets, Vitamin B supplements, all kinds of shit. It's scary that gullible people will stop taking their interferon for dietary fixes.

Lets not confuse marketing with scientific method. Drug companies ARE NOT concerned with results. They are concerned with sales. Scientists with a conscience who adhere to method dont rush.

I have always been concerned with the FINE PRINT in drug commercials. I have also been concerned with drug lobbyists who pay off both parties to protect them. MY PROBLEM is not scientific method. My problem is human greed, be it the alchemists or drug companies who don't give a shit who they kill.

I will never have a problem with scientific method though. I think human nature is the problem. You have a battle of wishful thinking vs pragmatism and the greedy who exploit both.

Exteenze is a dick pill, but if you look at the fine print, which they never make front page. This is no different than the dicks who convinced these DEAD vacationers that by boiling themselves they would be at peace. I wonder if these DEAD vacationers would have done it if the disclosure was BILLBOARD SIZED saying, "Entering this tent may result in heat stroke or death"

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Actually, the drug companies

Actually, the drug companies don't do much for marketing these drugs, mainly because most people wouldn't take them unless they had to. I don't think it's fair to demonize everyone who works at any given drug company. Companies are made up of individuals, each with their own moral compass, and I'm sure most of them care that the drugs they create help people.

In this case, the studies show an obvious better outcome, overall, in patients who take the recommended medication.

"Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense."