You be the Judge: Chick gets raped twice in a row; second time is by dude she went to help for

Kevin R Brown
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You be the Judge: Chick gets raped twice in a row; second time is by dude she went to help for

 Props to Achilles for this story:

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/07/raped-girl-went-to-man-for-help-raped-again.html

 

...So, with regards to the 2nd guy - the one who raped the girl after she came to him for help and told him that she had just been raped - how to you sentence?

 

Me, I say the guy gets to eat a 3 course meal consisting of broken beer bottles for the next 5 days, and then gets to shovel elephant poop at the zoo for the rest of his days. And, hey, since none of his assets will mean anything to him anymore, they'll be awarded to the victim. Smiling

 

Oh, the justice system I would run... 

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


Hambydammit
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 This is one subject where

 This is one subject where I pull sharply away from your average feminist... probably most women, actually.  I simply don't believe "rape is rape."  There have been a handful of cases in the last few years where there have been suspicious circumstances surrounding a woman who clearly had sex, but where the rape claim was dubious.

The first thing that comes to mind is the Kobe Bryant case.  Nineteen year old hotel employee, NBA superstar who also happens to be a very tall, attractive man with a couple million in loose change lying around his summer home in the Swiss Alps... She says, "Yeah, we kissed and made out, and stuff, but the sex was rape."  Right.  

Look, it's a nice bumper sticker to say "No means no."  In real life, there's a really big difference between jumping out of a bush, holding a knife to a girl's neck and forcing yourself on her, versus being drunk as a skunk making out with a girl who's also drunk as a skunk, and ending up having less than 100% agreement on how much she wanted or didn't want to have sex.  Anybody who's ever been part of the drunken party scene knows that 9 out of 10 hookups involve several rounds of "No, I can't, No, I've got a boyfriend in Colorado, Oh, I want to but I can't... ok, let's just kiss... etc, etc, etc."

I'm sorry.  Regret the morning after does not a rape make.  Even if she said several times she didn't want to.  If she said she wanted to once, and wasn't kicking while it was going on, that's not rape.  Itt's a bad drunk decision.

Now, this case looks a bit different, but the same kind of logic applies.  Let's suppose for a second that this girl isn't a straight up hooker.  Let's not kid ourselves about why men become drug dealers.  It's not just the money.  Women suck cock for drugs.  They also fuck for drugs if they're really strapped for cash.  Again, I'm not saying that's what happened here -- we don't have all the facts -- but how many things would she be doing at that time of night that could have led to this situation?  

Just throwing out a potential scenario -- let's say this girl's been known to fuck for drugs, and let's say dude dicked her over (metaphorically) and didn't pony up as much as she wanted, or stiffed her entirely after getting his cookies.  That's not rape.

Honestly, I don't care if this guy has previous sex crimes.  The question is, did he overpower this girl and have sex with her against her will, or did she cry rape after things didn't go exactly the way she wanted... whatever it was she wanted?  It's a big, big difference, and any talk of sending this guy up the river for decades needs to be tempered by the understanding that DNA doesn't equal rape.  It just equals sex.  Without clear evidence beyond just her testimony that there was forced, clearly nonconsentual sex between them, I'm not buying it.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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The Doomed Soul wrote:i

The Doomed Soul wrote:

i think im with Clockcat on this one...

Does that make me gay? or an ugly fat chick?



I'm sorry, Doomed, it turns out you're an ugly, gay, fat chick.


Of course, I'd always had my suspicions.

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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 Quote:The first thing that

 

Quote:
The first thing that comes to mind is the Kobe Bryant case.  Nineteen year old hotel employee, NBA superstar who also happens to be a very tall, attractive man with a couple million in loose change lying around his summer home in the Swiss Alps... She says, "Yeah, we kissed and made out, and stuff, but the sex was rape."  Right.

Okay, so I understand:

 

If a girl says 'no', and you proceed to grope her and bend her over a chair anyway, and she's still saying 'no', but she doesn't resist physically out of fear because you're a 6'6" juggernaut with a history of violence, that's not rape?

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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We actually had an

We actually had an interesting case of this in south africa. our president had sex with an HIV positive chick and she cried rape. Claimed the hole to scared to move thing aswell. but there was evidence that it wasnt rape. If the chick says no then its raped but she can say no 100 times and yes once and it isnt rape imo even if there is regret after. although you would have to be quiet a dick to make a chick so no 100 times.

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Hambydammit wrote:Honestly,

Hambydammit wrote:

Honestly, I don't care if this guy has previous sex crimes.  The question is, did he overpower this girl and have sex with her against her will, or did she cry rape after things didn't go exactly the way she wanted... whatever it was she wanted?  It's a big, big difference, and any talk of sending this guy up the river for decades needs to be tempered by the understanding that DNA doesn't equal rape.  It just equals sex.  Without clear evidence beyond just her testimony that there was forced, clearly nonconsentual sex between them, I'm not buying it. 

Hmmmm, nicely said.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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:3

If your partner says "no" once during sex in some states that is rape.

 

Or if they never vocally says "yes" depending on what state you are in that is rape.

 

If they say "yes" and then change their mind and don't tell you, in some states that can also count as rape.

 

If they are drinking before sex, it can be called rape in every state.

 

If both of you are drinking before sex, it can still be called rape in every state.

 

If your partner is on any kind of medication that causes drowsiness, and you are not aware of it during sex, it can be called rape in some states.

 

Add to this all of the other factors like people automatically jumping on the side that called rape, because they feel they are supposed to, to have a moral high ground. Whether it is true or not. If they are a vindictive person all they need to do is have sex with you, and then go to the police and say you raped them. People tend to jump to conclusions, "Oh they had sex and this person said it was rape so it must of been rape." "Were there any signs of a struggle?" "No...but this person said it is so it must be true! We have DNA!"

 

And then it is on their record, and could cause them loss of a job..and all kinds of life problems down the road.

 

 

I have a friend who is a registered sex offender. He got that friendly title streaking across the college campus in the middle of the night drunk. It ruins his life more often than you would think.

 

 

I couldn't imagine if you had to live with a rape charge against you, let alone if they found you guilty simply because you pissed off someone too vindictive to let a relationship go and they went as far as to get DNA evidence first with fake make-up sex. The scary part is, I know a lot of people that could be that vindictive. I have no doubt it happens a lot. I already know people that have openly said they threatened it before to get things (usually those people seem to be after drugs).

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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Good Job Kevin! Fight the Good Fight!

 I would like to take this moment to commend Kevin for showing that Theists don't have a monopoly on Hypocrisy and the Bait n' Switch Tactic.

I mean, it takes a special type of person to post a thread with the first four words in the title being

Quote:
You be the Judge
and then Admonish everyone who doesn't agree with you. Good Job Kevin! We wouldn't want people to think Atheists are Respectable, what do you think that would do to our credibility?

And ClockCat and others, if you keep up this track of looking for more information before making a response and pronouncing judgement, I feel it is only fair to warn you that you will force me and Doomed to go into 'Damage Control' and start kicking puppies. You wouldn't want that would you?

Oh, I see the problem here. Its just a simple communication failure.

Everyone, the next time Kevin posts a thread with 'You be the Judge' at the start of it, what he really means is 'You be the Judge, but if you judge differently then me, you must be a fag or an ugly bitch.'

Now then, can we get back to the topic at hand, namely Rape Fantasies?

Kevin, I can think of Dozens of ways in which a straight man could be made to 'not enjoy', to say the least, being raped by a woman, none of which need necessarily be physically scarring or damaging.
Though to be fair, most of these methods are used by actual dominatrixes, so go figure...

When you say it like that you make it sound so Sinister...


The Doomed Soul
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Sinphanius wrote:And

Sinphanius wrote:

And ClockCat and others, if you keep up this track of looking for more information before making a response and pronouncing judgement, I feel it is only fair to warn you that you will force me and Doomed to go into 'Damage Control' and start kicking puppies. You wouldn't want that would you?

 

... but i was one of the others...

 

... do i still get to kick puppies?

What Would Kharn Do?


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:3

Puppies are fair game.

 

 

Kittens earns you 3 weeks in LDS reeducation center.


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ClockCat wrote:Kittens earns

ClockCat wrote:

Kittens earns you 3 weeks in LDS reeducation center.

 

I highly doubt 3 weeks would do anything to curb my hatred of kittens

 

What Would Kharn Do?


Hambydammit
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 Well, KB, the Kobe girl...

 Well, KB, the Kobe girl... let's see... she wore panties with Caucasian pubic hair and someone else's semen to the rape test.  She bragged at a party about having sex with Kobe Bryant.  She admitted to having sex with multiple partners within a 24 hour period of being with Kobe.  She was institutionalized for 4 months for her own safety because of a schizophrenia.  She wrote a letter apologizing to the police for "exaggerating" somewhat in her initial statement.  Then, she settled with Kobe for an undisclosed amount of cashola.

Seems... fishy.

And I mean the situation, although I'm sure something else was fishy, too...

The point I'm trying to make is that just because a woman says she said no, or that she got bent over a chair, it doesn't make it rape -- even if she said no, and got bent over a chair and fucked.  Some girls -- lots, if the women's mags are to be believed -- have rape fantasies.

KB, this is one of those situations where your lack of social savvy is keeping you from understanding your own strong opinion.  I'm a professional party drunk.  I've probably had more drunk party mess-around than you've had mess-around.  I mean, hell's bells, I was in a touring band for two years.  My life was a drunken party for two solid years.  

Here's the thing:  Women say no.  There is almost no such thing as a woman who says yes on the first try.  This is a HUGE socially taught convention among women.  Not only that, it's arguably genetically taught.  Women are supposed to be picky.  They're supposed to be hard to get.  They're supposed to make a man work for what he gets.

If I'd stopped at the first "No," I'd probably have never gotten laid in my life.  Most men know this.  (The ones who don't get laid... perhaps not...)  Does that mean I've raped every woman I've ever had sex with?  No.  Does it mean I've raped any of them?  No.  Have some of them said no at various parts of the hookup?  Yes.  So... that means I raped them, right?  NO!  It does not.

Women say no so they can tell their girlfriends they resisted at first, among other things.  Ask any psychologist.  Our sex-negative Christianized culture tells women they are not allowed to have fun hookup sex even if they want it.  The thing is, sometimes they do want it, but they can't admit to wanting it, or they'll be sluts.  So, they say no.  Enough times that they can legitimately tell their girlfriends that they resisted until the power of his charm, or his rough manliness overpowered them and they succumbed to the lust.

Have you ever read a romance novel, KB?  That's not a flippant question.  Read a couple.  It won't take long.  What I just described is 8 out of 10 sex scenes in romance novels.  Those things don't sell like deep fried twinkies for no reason.  Women eat that shit up.  They want to say no and then be won over.

Saying no doesn't equal rape.  If a girl tells you no the first time you ask for sex, it means she's not a paid prostitute.  Any other girl raised in western culture is highly likely to say no the first time.  Women also say no when they mean yes during make-out sessions.  I've had girls say no when I've tried to take their panties off because they just want to make out, not have sex.  Then, ten minutes later, they're taking their own panties off because they want to have sex.  Women change their mind seventy three times every make out session.  It's the law of being woman.

Sheesh... where is Greek Goddess when we need her.  I'm going to get her to tell you I'm telling the truth next time I see her on skype.

So...

Back to Kobe.  She gave him a personal tour of the hotel.  She kissed him voluntarily.  She messed around with him voluntarily.  She says she said no, but she also says she said yes a lot.  Then she bragged to her friends that she had sex with Kobe.   The point is, we are programmed by our sex-negative culture to be OVER-reactionary to any claim that a woman said no.

My point is that saying no doesn't make rape.  To be rape, there has to be other corroborating evidence to show clearly that this wasn't normal female indecision during a makeout session.  This was clearly sexual assault where the guy wanted it and took it while knowing full well that the girl was not a willing partner.

I realize the law disagrees with me.  I'm not talking about the law.  I'm talking about reality.  The law is intended to give the judge the freedom to send someone up a creek when there are unusual circumstances, such that the girl couldn't conform to the "classic rape" scenario, but it was still clearly rape.  It is, unfortunately, an easy way for unscrupulous women to use celebrities for financial gain, punish ex-boyfriends for being assholes, ruin careers, etc.

By the way, so you know, I've had a woman say a solid, decisive "NO" during a makeout session.  It was consentual and willing, and she was having fun.  She said so herself.  She seriously changed her mind about half way through and decided she wasn't into it for reasons she told me a couple of days later.  The "real no" was clear and unambiguous.  I got up, put my clothes back on, and told her I understood.  I'm not saying every guy would respect her wishes.  I'm saying when a woman really, clearly, and unambiguously wants things to stop, she can make it absolutely clear and unambiguous to the guy.

It's a double edged sword, and I have all the sympathy in the world for women who are genuinely raped.  For women who get themselves into a situation they aren't proud of, and then call it rape later to save face... I wish there really was a purgatory.  As bad as the trauma of living with being raped must be, I can't imagine it's any nicer to be branded a sex criminal for the rest of your life so some drunk girl at a party can tell her daddy she's still a good little girl.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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 Quote:Well, KB, the Kobe

 

Quote:
Well, KB, the Kobe girl... let's see... she wore panties with Caucasian pubic hair and someone else's semen to the rape test.  She bragged at a party about having sex with Kobe Bryant.  She admitted to having sex with multiple partners within a 24 hour period of being with Kobe.  She was institutionalized for 4 months for her own safety because of a schizophrenia.  She wrote a letter apologizing to the police for "exaggerating" somewhat in her initial statement.  Then, she settled with Kobe for an undisclosed amount of cashola.

The panties were, according to girl, a dirty pair she threw on. Yes, she bragged about the event - while drunk stupid at a party. I (and I presume you?) have been to enough parties with drunk girls to know not to give a lot of weight to what comes out of their mouths. 

She didn't admit to having sex with multiple partners, as far as I'm aware. In fact, I'm pretty sure she claimed the opposite, and was willing to take a lie detector test on the matter (I realize that polygraphs are not 'lie detectors' in the strictest sense, and that Kobe was also willing to take one, but it's still circumstantially in her favor).

She was not institutionalized for 4 months; she was institutionalized for a brief period 4 months prior to even having met Kobe. It was not because she was insane, either; she was depressed.

 

According to Kobe, the settlement didn't award her a penny:

Quote:
...I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.

...The last part is also a funny thing to say, isn't it? He thought it was consensual, but she didn't? Doesn't that automatically mean it was not consensual, seeing that it being consensual sex requires the other person to have agreed to it?

Also, if being an alleged sex offender is supposed to be so career-shattering, what about Kobe? His career certainly didn't end in Colorado.

 

Anyway, sure, I'm aware of the, ' "No" sometimes means "YES!!!" ' rule, but only when it's obvious (either due to body language, subtle audio queues like giggling... I'm sure you could name more than me off the top of your head). After you've established that, though, what do you then say is rape? Is it only rape if she's goes back to her parents wearing a toe tag? Is it never rape so long as you can get her to orgasm?

We've had this discussion on Skype several times: Girls have rape fantasies, but are only comfortable in controlled rape scenarios. Greek Goddess has some nifty bedroom hardware, for example, but it's just for show (the handcuffs come off without needing a key, as it were). 

I don't particularly care what the law says on the matter (well, not until I'm sitting in the courtroom, anyway), so nevermind that. If it's not rape when she says no and tries to get away from you, and you press forward, when is it rape? 

 

EDIT: While we're talking about personal experience and/or a lack thereof that would be coloring our perceptions, you're right; I haven't messed around with girls before. Now, have you ever lived in the burned-out downtown core of a major city for a few years and been jumped on your way home more than once because you have to commute at night (I worked a graveyard shift) from your job to your home using public transit? I sure as Hell did that.

Guess what? People alwaysl play the 'blame the victim' game. 

"...Well what were you doing out so late?"

"...Well why don't you just act like a normal person and get a car?"

"...Well why didn't you run for help when you saw the guys coming?"

...I don't have a room at my workplace, I can't drive worth a shit (even if I could, I don't need to be one more exhaust pipe on the road and where the Hell was I going to run, exactly?

I don't know why that girl got into the dude's car. Maybe she had run out of bus fare. Maybe the bus wasn't coming for another hour. Or maybe you're right, and she was just looking for drugs.

I do know that constantly being blamed for bad things that happen to you is a shitty deal, that it happens all of the time and that it pisses me off that it's the first thing most people do just so they can feel better about their city/country/world.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

 

"...and I can't picture Kevin doing anything with a woman."

 

 

 

 


 

     Ouch!  That comment really hits below the belt, Capt.

 

                   ( ...pun intended )


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Hambydammit wrote:Sheesh...

Hambydammit wrote:

Sheesh... where is Greek Goddess when we need her.  I'm going to get her to tell you I'm telling the truth next time I see her on skype.

We need some sort of symbol flashing in the sky to summon me, like Batman, haha. Anyways, just wanted to say that Hamby asked me to contribute to this topic a couple days ago, and I haven't forgotten about it. I'm in the midst of drafting a response, but have been preoccupied with my other work & things in real life, so it's not finished. It'll probably be a long response, so maybe I'll just post what I have thus far later tonight to keep the discussion moving.


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The Doomed Soul

The Doomed Soul wrote:

ClockCat wrote:

I don't think I know anyone that doesn't have a cellphone. I mean, how would you text your friends during class without one? o.O

 

I dont have a cellphone, or a landline phone for that matter

 

take that telemarketers! muahaha

You're really missing out. I need to start recording some of the conversations I have with telemarketers.

"Hello, this is [telemarketing/scam company x] calling for [female name, obviously a wrong number], is she available?" "Uh, yes, one moment." [hands phone to friend with really deep voice] "Hullo?" "Uhm, is this [person]?" "Mmmyes. What can I do for you honey?" "Sir, I'm calling for [person], could you please put her on the line?" "Oh, you're looking for [repeats name], hang on." [passes phone to me, now speaking in falsetto] "HALLOOO?" "Hello, maam?" "YAAAAS?"

Ad infinitum, or until we can no longer contain our snickers and are forced to play some Rick Astley.


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:Would he

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Would he tie me up with mouse cords and then play WoW?
Quote:

OMG coffee spurting from my nose. Please tone down your humor, my nose can't take anymore Sticking out tongue

Respectfully,
Lenny

"The righteous rise, With burning eyes, Of hatred and ill-will
Madmen fed on fear and lies, To beat and burn and kill"
Witch Hunt from the album Moving Pictures. Neal Pert, Rush