Is god infinite? (Q for theists)

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Is god infinite? (Q for theists)

 Just a quick question while taking a break from studying for exams. Smiling


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BobSpence1 wrote:So counting

BobSpence1 wrote:

So counting an infinite series could in principle be done in a finite time, as long as each successive count takes half the time of the previous one. This is unrealistic for a real physical process, but valid mathematically.

I was supposing counting such things in a timeless space...a singularity or something like this. Time aside, it seems to be a logical impossibility to traverse an infinity.

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ubuntuAnyone

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

So counting an infinite series could in principle be done in a finite time, as long as each successive count takes half the time of the previous one. This is unrealistic for a real physical process, but valid mathematically.

I was supposing counting such things in a timeless space...a singularity or something like this. Time aside, it seems to be a logical impossibility to traverse an infinity.

'It seems', is the key expression. The proposition is indeed counter-intuitive. But that is not the same as 'logically impossible'.

Math is firmly based in logic. Given the assumption that each successive step takes half the time of the one before, an infinite sequence can be traversed in a finite time. That is a valid mathematical statement, therefore it is also logically valid.

Our intuitions are based on/derived from real world experience, including the experiences of our ancestors as encoded in the basic organization of our brains. So they are unreliable as indicators of logical possibility in this discussion, which goes beyond any obvious mapping into perceivable reality.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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BobSpence1 wrote:'It seems',

BobSpence1 wrote:

'It seems', is the key expression. The proposition is indeed counter-intuitive. But that is not the same as 'logically impossible'.

Perhaps a poor choice of words, and I'm not talking about intuitions either. But even if I half the the time it takes to count something as the previous iteration, I'd never converge on the time. If the first iteration took one second, then the convergence would be two seconds, but this is not the case, because one would mince each time slice never actually reaching two seconds.

 

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ubuntuAnyone

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

'It seems', is the key expression. The proposition is indeed counter-intuitive. But that is not the same as 'logically impossible'.

Perhaps a poor choice of words, and I'm not talking about intuitions either. But even if I half the the time it takes to count something as the previous iteration, I'd never converge on the time. If the first iteration took one second, then the convergence would be two seconds, but this is not the case, because one would mince each time slice never actually reaching two seconds. 

You are still laboring under Zeno's fallacy (also known, inaccurately, as a 'paradox' ). By that same argument, Achilles will never catch up with the tortoise.

EDIT: The thing you are missing is that the scenarios, whether as described by Zeno in slicing up the distance into ever smaller pieces, or your description of 'mincing' time slices, are artificial constructs, which don't have to match the constraints of reality or or intuitions.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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BobSpence1 wrote:You are

BobSpence1 wrote:

You are still laboring under Zeno's fallacy (also known, inaccurately, as a 'paradox' ). By that same argument, Achilles will never catch up with the tortoise.

EDIT: The thing you are missing is that the scenarios, whether as described by Zeno in slicing up the distance into ever smaller pieces, or your description of 'mincing' time slices, are artificial constructs, which don't have to match the constraints of reality or or intuitions.


To think of Zeno’s paradox as solved is somewhat presumptuous. There are arguments on both sides, as illustrated here. I tend to think that anything that collapses into some sort of infinite regress on any level, practical or purely theoretical results in absurdity. On a practical level, you being a programmer can appreciate the fact a recursive algorithm without some sort of base case results in an absurd program, crashing with a stack overflow. On a theoretical level for instance where does justification for knowledge stop? If one had to give justification for some statement, then give justification for the justification and so  on, how could he ever be justify? On a practical level, the calculus solutions may provide some answers one wants (Sometimes, even it fails it) But on a theoretical level, such things are not so satisfactory. I think the fact that there is not a consensus on the matter illustrates the point.

“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”


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ubuntuAnyone

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

You are still laboring under Zeno's fallacy (also known, inaccurately, as a 'paradox' ). By that same argument, Achilles will never catch up with the tortoise.

EDIT: The thing you are missing is that the scenarios, whether as described by Zeno in slicing up the distance into ever smaller pieces, or your description of 'mincing' time slices, are artificial constructs, which don't have to match the constraints of reality or or intuitions.


To think of Zeno’s paradox as solved is somewhat presumptuous. There are arguments on both sides, as illustrated here. I tend to think that anything that collapses into some sort of infinite regress on any level, practical or purely theoretical results in absurdity. On a practical level, you being a programmer can appreciate the fact a recursive algorithm without some sort of base case results in an absurd program, crashing with a stack overflow. On a theoretical level for instance where does justification for knowledge stop? If one had to give justification for some statement, then give justification for the justification and so  on, how could he ever be justify? On a practical level, the calculus solutions may provide some answers one wants (Sometimes, even it fails it) But on a theoretical level, such things are not so satisfactory. I think the fact that there is not a consensus on the matter illustrates the point.

There is no paradox here in logic or math terms. The sum of the infinite series Zeno's analysis generated is solved in high school math, and it is finite, and no calculus is involved. What is your problem?

The Greeks did not have the math tools that were developed later to solve such problems, and had this hang-up about infinite series, which you appear to share.

There are genuinely tricky problems involving infinities, but this is not one of them. It does not involve any regress issues, so I don't see the relevance of  much of your comment here. No recursive algorithm is required to solve it. Calculus is much more rigorous than you seem to be trying to imply.

You appear to keep conflating the mathematical handling of infinities and infinite series with the very real difficulties of trying to apply ideas of infinity to practical reality.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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BobSpence1 wrote:There is no

BobSpence1 wrote:

There is no paradox here in logic or math terms. The sum of the infinite series Zeno's analysis generated is solved in high school math, and it is finite, and no calculus is involved. What is your problem?

I never denied the solution in "practical reality". Zeno's paradox, Thompson's Lamp, and Hilbert's Hotel to some degree are not about the sum of a series, but traversing an infinity...the paradox lies therein. This has implications that are not strictly mathematical.

 

 

“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”


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ubuntuAnyone

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

There is no paradox here in logic or math terms. The sum of the infinite series Zeno's analysis generated is solved in high school math, and it is finite, and no calculus is involved. What is your problem?

I never denied the solution in "practical reality". Zeno's paradox, Thompson's Lamp, and Hilbert's Hotel to some degree are not about the sum of a series, but traversing an infinity...the paradox lies therein. This has implications that are not strictly mathematical.

 

You 'traverse an infinity' every time you move a finite distance, since mathematically there are mathematically an actually infinite number of points in a finite line, but that doesn't seem to raise the same mental alarm bells.

Zeno's 'paradox' is about traversing a perfectly finite physical distance. Just because you can conceptually define an algorithm which notionally subdivides that finite distance into an infinite number of non-zero segments, does not point to any physical, non-mathematical, problem.

Insofar as there is some sort of 'paradox', it lies in that concept of an infinite number of non-zero segments adding to a finite sum. No 'traversing' involved or implied.

Thompson's Lamp is not directly about the sum of a series, although it partly relies on the same concept of an infinite series having a finite sum to allow an infinite number of operations to appear to be possible within a finite time, it is about the question of whether such an infinite sequence can be unambiguously even or odd. And of course the definition of the timing could well be modified to specify that, without compromising the other properties of the infinite sequence.

Hilbert's Hotel doesn't involve the sum of a series at all, it is about Cantor's idea that all 'transfinite' numbers of the same class being in some sense the same size, so that adding a quantity of the same or lower order to a transfinite number doesn't change its order, or 'size'.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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BobSpence1 wrote:You

BobSpence1 wrote:

You 'traverse an infinity' every time you move a finite distance, since mathematically there are mathematically an actually infinite number of points in a finite line, but that doesn't seem to raise the same mental alarm bells.

Zeno's 'paradox' is about traversing a perfectly finite physical distance. Just because you can conceptually define an algorithm which notionally subdivides that finite distance into an infinite number of non-zero segments, does not point to any physical, non-mathematical, problem.

Insofar as there is some sort of 'paradox', it lies in that concept of an infinite number of non-zero segments adding to a finite sum. No 'traversing' involved or implied.

Thompson's Lamp is not directly about the sum of a series, although it partly relies on the same concept of an infinite series having a finite sum to allow an infinite number of operations to appear to be possible within a finite time, it is about the question of whether such an infinite sequence can be unambiguously even or odd. And of course the definition of the timing could well be modified to specify that, without compromising the other properties of the infinite sequence.

Hilbert's Hotel doesn't involve the sum of a series at all, it is about Cantor's idea that all 'transfinite' numbers of the same class being in some sense the same size, so that adding a quantity of the same or lower order to a transfinite number doesn't change its order, or 'size'.

Traversing an infinity is performing the iterative algorithm one step at a time. The result are realistic but the steps are never ending...that is they can never actual produce the result. The solutions for the three aforementioned paradoxes require performing one of the iterative algorithms.

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From Wikipedia:"Actual

From Wikipedia:

"Actual infinity is the idea that numbers, or some other type of mathematical object, can form an actual, completed totality; namely, a set. Hence, in the philosophy of mathematics, the abstraction of actual infinity involves the acceptance of infinite entities, such as the set of all natural numbers or an arbitrary sequence of rational numbers, as given objects."

Which seems to indicate that the natural numbers, a discrete set, is an actual infinity.

 

Quotes from here forward are from ubuntuAnyone.

"One cannot rationalize 2 without believing in a pragmatic sense 3..."

No, no, no.  One merely has to recognize that the probability of 3 being true is non-zero.  Then Pascal's "reasoning" leads to a belief in 2.

By your reasoning, Pascal's Wager would require believing in a pragmatic sense 1 in order to justify a belief in 1, which is just circular and not at all what he meant.

I can believe that God does not exist without believing that it is impossible for God to exist.  That's the stance taken by the counter-wager.

 

"How can anything other than a positive infinity if I have a positive probability greater than 0 and an infinite greater than 0?"

If the probability is effectively 1/infinity, or infinitesimal.

 

"Start counting all numbers iteratively between zero and one. Let me know when you're finished."

I can't halve my time with each iteration while counting.  I can with movement though.  I just passed all those numbers on my number line; in route to typing this sentence no less.  Zeno's "paradox" be damned.

 

Also, you are really confusing the term "never."  This statement really illustrates it:

"But even if I half the the time it takes to count something as the previous iteration, I'd never converge on the time. If the first iteration took one second, then the convergence would be two seconds, but this is not the case, because one would mince each time slice never actually reaching two seconds."

You start "mincing" the time slice, but then you say "never actually reaching two seconds."  This never is different from the never you used earlier when you claimed that you'd never be able to traverse the infinity.  When traversing the infinity, you appear to be claiming that you will never traverse it no matter how much time you use.  But in this case, you're talking about converging on a time, so that use of the word never doesn't make any sense.  You've jumped to using never to mean "never converge no matter how many iterations you perform," which is different from "never converge no matter how much time you use."  It is by jumping between these uses of the term "never" that you are reaching a false conclusion.  You reach a conclusion about iterations and then attempt to switch the meaning of never in order to apply that conclusion to time.

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http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html

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I love people who think that

I love people who think that by playing with rhetoric, language and "philosophical" arguments you can prevent people from seeing obvious logical, scientific and moral errors in Bible, Koran, Tora and * put here your favorite religious manuscript*. 

Infinite is only human stupidity. Your god doesn't exist, deal with it.

 

Ecrasez l'infame!


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ubuntuAnyone

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

You 'traverse an infinity' every time you move a finite distance, since mathematically there are mathematically an actually infinite number of points in a finite line, but that doesn't seem to raise the same mental alarm bells.

Zeno's 'paradox' is about traversing a perfectly finite physical distance. Just because you can conceptually define an algorithm which notionally subdivides that finite distance into an infinite number of non-zero segments, does not point to any physical, non-mathematical, problem.

Insofar as there is some sort of 'paradox', it lies in that concept of an infinite number of non-zero segments adding to a finite sum. No 'traversing' involved or implied.

Thompson's Lamp is not directly about the sum of a series, although it partly relies on the same concept of an infinite series having a finite sum to allow an infinite number of operations to appear to be possible within a finite time, it is about the question of whether such an infinite sequence can be unambiguously even or odd. And of course the definition of the timing could well be modified to specify that, without compromising the other properties of the infinite sequence.

Hilbert's Hotel doesn't involve the sum of a series at all, it is about Cantor's idea that all 'transfinite' numbers of the same class being in some sense the same size, so that adding a quantity of the same or lower order to a transfinite number doesn't change its order, or 'size'.

Traversing an infinity is performing the iterative algorithm one step at a time. The result are realistic but the steps are never ending...that is they can never actual produce the result. The solutions for the three aforementioned paradoxes require performing one of the iterative algorithms.

Traversing is only involved in the description, the specification of each scenario.

Iteration is NOT involved in the solution - otherwise one could not have a solution of such scenarios.

The clearest example of that is the sum of a geometric series:

The sum of a geometric series starting at A0, where An+1 = An * r, is 

S = A0 ( 1 - rn+1 ) / ( 1 - r )

Now this next step is as close as we get to 'traversing' the sequence, but actually uses "in the limit" style argument, as in calculus:

for any arbitrarily small number x, with r < 1,

there exists a value n such that rn < x;

and if na > nb, rna < rnb,

which is the basic justification for the following statements:

For n = infinity and r  < 1 

rn = 0

therefore

Sinf = A0/( 1 - r)

No actual iteration or traversal required.

Iteration is only usable in programming when there is a clear terminating condition, which by definition is not the case in infinite sequences.

EDIT: sorry for this side-track....

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Zaq wrote:Which seems to

Zaq wrote:

Which seems to indicate that the natural numbers, a discrete set, is an actual infinity.
 

There is no consensus on whether or not transfinite sets are discrete or not...It depends on which set theory is applied to them. but grant the possibility that they are. Even then one has to grant some sort of ontological status to numbers apart from a mere abstraction for such a set to actually exist.
Zaq wrote:

No, no, no.  One merely has to recognize that the probability of 3 being true is non-zero.  Then Pascal's "reasoning" leads to a belief in 2.

Belief in 2 could never produce belief in 3. If one believes in 2 because of 3, one is not actually believing 2, but 3. In other words, If one believes 2 because of 3, then one is actually believing 3 because he is staking belief on 3.
Zaq wrote:

By your reasoning, Pascal's Wager would require believing in a pragmatic sense 1 in order to justify a belief in 1, which is just circular and not at all what he meant.

The justification in a pragmatic sense are the consequences of the decision...it's utilitarian. In a justification sense, belief does not occur until one acts, this is why one's wager is one's belief.  If one uses the consequences of 3 as justification of 2 then wagers on 2 because of 3, then one is believing that 3 is true.
Zaq wrote:

I can believe that God does not exist without believing that it is impossible for God to exist.  That's the stance taken by the counter-wager.

If you believe that God does not exist, then you cannot use 3 as justification for 2.
Zaq wrote:

If the probability is effectively 1/infinity, or infinitesimal.

All it has to be is nonzero...Even infinitesimal values are nonzero.
Zaq wrote:

I can't halve my time with each iteration while counting.  I can with movement though.  I just passed all those numbers on my number line; in route to typing this sentence no less.  Zeno's "paradox" be damned.

Did you actually count them or make a machine to count them?
Zaq wrote:

You reach a conclusion about iterations and then attempt to switch the meaning of never in order to apply that conclusion to time.

I'm not sure you really understand stood what I meant. Whether you use 2 seconds or 2 billion years, you could never converge on 2 seconds if one is iterating infinitely.If you read back over the discussion, I wrote about dismissing time altogether.

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BobSpence1 wrote:No actual

BobSpence1 wrote:

No actual iteration or traversal required.

Right... one can produce mathematical solutions without traversals...I never denied that. But as I've said, the mathematics are not doing traversals...they are abstracting the results. My concerns are not strictly mathematical as I've mentioned before such as justification for beliefs and cause and effect relationships.

“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”


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ubuntuAnyone wrote:Zaq

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

Zaq wrote:

It's not irrational to concieve of a payoff through dumb luck.  If you set up a game where I payed 1$ to roll a 6-sided die, and you payed me $100 if I rolled a 6 and nothing if I rolled anything else, then it'd be rational for me to play the game as much as I could even though the results are determined by dumb luck.

Pascals Wager basically goes:

1P. The probability of a heavenly reward for theistic belief is nonzero

2P. The reward one might attain is infinite

3P. Thus one should be a theist

Zaq's Counter-Wager basically goes:

1Z. The probability of a heavenly reward for atheistic lack of belief is nonzero (via the quote + the reasoning for 1P)

2Z. The reward one might attain is infinite

3Z. Thus one should be an atheist

 

Arguing that 1Z is true is just as easy as arguing that 1P is true, as both hinge on the fact that their respective gods are impossible to disprove.  So either both are false or the validity of the argument structure leads to a contradiction.  Either way both wagers fail.




I think this would be bifurcation -- that is saying it is this wager or that wager. I think game theory applied properly would pose all three options as possibilities:

(1) Belief that a god rewards infinitely

(2) Belief there is no god

(3) Belief that a god rewards (2) infinitely.

If one believes (3), then one rejects (1), but in order to embrace (3), on has to believe in in a god, so that person could never recieve the payoff of (3). If one blieves (2), then one rejects (1) and (3) in either case (3) does not seem like a good bet for an atheist. The only way to win on (3) is to bet on (2), but one cannot rationally bet on (3). (3) is not one's best bet, but it is possible to win on dumb luck...

That is NOT a 'proper' translation of the counter-wager.

Zaq's version of (3) does NOT entail actual belief in God, just the possibility that even IF the atheist were wrong, that a 'rational', truly just God would reward the Atheist for having the intellectual honesty to base their belief on a rational assessment of the balance of evidence rather than believing for purely selfish desires.

IOW, the apparent lack of sufficient evidence to justify belief in a God could be either because there is no God, or that a God deliberately set things up that way to test our intelligence and honesty rather than our propensity for blind faith. Or perhaps both are rewarded, the latter case allowing or those who simply lack the intellectual capacity to appreciate the rational arguments.

It is all moot, since any argument based on 'infinite' payoffs is meaningless, or at the very least undecidable or indeterminate, in the mathematical sense of a ratio of infinities, or zero * infinity.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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Wow, BobSpence may have put

Wow, BobSpence may have put it better than I could.

You seem to be hung up on "rationalizing 2 requires belief in 3," when it would only really require belief that 3 were possible.  I can believe that something is possible without believing that it's true.  Agnostics of both the theist and atheist type do this.

 

Infinity * infinitesimal.  The point is that the answer varies depending on the nature of the infinity and the infinitesimal.  Sometimes its zero, sometimes it's finite nonzero, sometimes its divergent.  Just because there's an infinity doesn't mean you're guaranteed a positive result because you could get zero.  That's the fallacy in Pascal's Wager.

 

"There is no consensus on whether or not transfinite sets are discrete or not..."

Do you mean that there's no consensus on whether or not the set of transfinite numbers is discrete or not?  I'm aware of that, and if IRC it goes deeper than that because it's part of the Incompleteness Theorem or something.

Anyway, it sounds like you might be saying that there's no consensus on whether or not any set with a transfinite cardinality (which would be any infinite set) is discrete or not, but I've never heard of any such lack of consensus when it comes to the rationals, integers, irrationals, real, or complex numbers.  In fact, demonstrating that the real numbers were not discrete was what led Cantor to the idea of cardinality in the first place.

I'm not talking about the set of transfinite numbers though.  I'm talking about Wikipedia using a universally-recognized discrete set (the rational numbers) as an example of an actual infinity, which you claimed needed to be continuous.  The set of transfinite numbers was never involved.

 

"If you read back over the discussion, I wrote about dismissing time altogether."

And that's exactly the problem.  Once you dismiss time, you can no longer conclude anything about time.  You say "never" as if Hercules will never catch the tortoise no matter much time he spends chasing it, but the whole point is that "never no matter how many iterations" doesn't logically imply "never no matter how much time."

I agree that no matter how many iterations you perform you will never reach the limit, but that does not mean that no matter how much time you spend you will never reach the limit.  That's the error in Zeno's supposed paradox, the error that makes it not really a paradox.

Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html

I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.


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BobSpence1 wrote:IOW, the

BobSpence1 wrote:
IOW, the apparent lack of sufficient evidence to justify belief in a God could be either because there is no God, or that a God deliberately set things up that way to test our 

intelligence

 and

honesty

rather than our propensity for

blind faith.

Or perhaps both are rewarded, the latter case allowing or those who simply lack the intellectual capacity to appreciate the rational arguments.

This is giving some sort of epistemic treatment to the propositions at hand apart from some sort of pragmatism, a red herring of sort. It does not mitigate the wager in a pragmatic sense. If one allows evidence to sway one's decision according to the wager, even the possibility of evidence for the existence of a deity would justify wagering according to Pascal, even if it does not actually exist.

In pragmatism, beliefs are justified based on consequences. If one wagers according to 2 and uses 3 as justification, then one is believing, in a pragmatic sense, that 3 is true. All that one has are possibilities, and one is believing the possibilities to be true. This does not make the beliefs necessarily true as Pascal's Wager does not prove nor does it deny the existence of a god.

BobSpence1 wrote:

It is all moot, since any argument based on 'infinite' payoffs is meaningless, or at the very least undecidable or indeterminate, in the mathematical sense of a ratio of infinities, or zero * infinity.

Infinite payoffs are difficult to understand, but this is not neccessarily a problem with the payoffs themselves. It could be our inability to fully comprehend  such concepts. It is easy to reject things we do not understand as moot or nonsense, but that does not such things moot or nonsense.

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Zaq wrote:You seem to be

Zaq wrote:

You seem to be hung up on "rationalizing 2 requires belief in 3," when it would only really require belief that 3 were possible.  I can believe that something is possible without believing that it's true.  Agnostics of both the theist and atheist type do this.

Pascal's wager is pragmatic justification for belief in a deity. In a pragmatic sense, one's belief is based on consequences. In effect, if one believes 2 because of the consequences of 3, then one is believing 3. The one thing the wager does not allow is for is agnosticm. Abstaining for a bet in a pragmatic sense is an implicit bet for 2. In other words, one is a garanteed loser if he or she does not bet. Proposing that God rewards those who don't bet and acting accordingly is a bet on such a belief, nevertheless.

Zaq wrote:

Infinity * infinitesimal.

Positive infinitesimal values (which infinitesimal probability would be) are greater than 0 and finite. That would mean that any such value multiplied times an infinity results in an infinity. Even an infintesimal probability for the existence of a god is warranted by an infinite payoff.

Zaq wrote:

I'm talking about Wikipedia using a universally-recognized discrete set.

I think this whole thing has got muddled... Perhaps there needs to be clarification.

Zaq wrote:

I agree that no matter how many iterations you perform you will never reach the limit, but that does not mean that no matter how much time you spend you will never reach the limit.  That's the error in Zeno's supposed paradox, the error that makes it not really a paradox.

Time removed, one would never reach the end logically. That was the point. The paradox is that one could theoretically do an infinite task in a finite time, but the infinite task (that is an infinite number of iterations) itself cannot logically be completed. One cannot confirm one without violating the logic of the other and is why it's called a paradox. The mathematical solution is not the issue.

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ubuntuAnyone wrote:Pascal's

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

Pascal's wager is pragmatic justification for belief in a deity. In a pragmatic sense, one's belief is based on consequences. In effect, if one believes 2 because of the consequences of 3, then one is believing 3. The one thing the wager does not allow is for is agnosticm. Abstaining for a bet in a pragmatic sense is an implicit bet for 2. In other words, one is a garanteed loser if he or she does not bet. Proposing that God rewards those who don't bet and acting accordingly is a bet on such a belief, nevertheless.

This is just... way off.

Pascal's Wager argues that because there might be a god that rewards theism, one ought to be a theist.

My wager using the same reasoning to argue that because their might be a god that rewards atheism, one ought to be an atheist.  Believing that there might be a god does not require one to believe that there is a god.

Here's a simplified example.  Suppose I offered to let you choose odd or even, and suppose that there's a 1% percent chance that if you choose odd I'd give you $1,000,000 and a 99% chance you get nothing, but if you choose even you're guaranteed no reward.  You don't have to believe that I will definitely give away the $1,000,000 to recognize that choosing odd is the best bet, you just need to believe that I might give it away.

Similarly, one doesn't need to believe that there is a god that rewards atheism to recognize that atheism is the best bet by Pascal's reasoning, they just need to believe that there might be a god that rewards atheism.

If you're still hung up on the terminology, modify the quote to remove any notion of gods.  Maybe there's no god, but there is an entirely natural yet super-advanced alien race that implanted the god belief into primitive human society as a test.  Those who succumb to the illusion (theists) will, upon their deaths, be resurrected by the miracles of super-advanced science and sent to alien torture chambers.  Those who overcome the illusion (atheists) will, upon their deaths, be resurrected by the miracles of super-advanced science and sent to an alien utopia.  The probability of this alien society existing is every bit as non-zero as the probability of a god with heaven and hell.  Thus by Pascal's own reasoning one ought to be an atheist.

 

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

Positive infinitesimal values (which infinitesimal probability would be) are greater than 0 and finite. That would mean that any such value multiplied times an infinity results in an infinity. Even an infintesimal probability for the existence of a god is warranted by an infinite payoff.

Your position is not mathematically sound.  I gave an example of where it is not true, where the infinitesimal probability from thermodynamics outweighed the infinite reward.

Or think of it this way.  I have the set of integers, an infinite set.  I select from that set a single integer, which is a finite number of integers.  That single integer is an infinitesimal fraction of the set of integers, so the infinitesimal of the fraction times the infinitude of the set would get me one, not infinity.  Infinity * infinitesimal is not always infinity.

 

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

I think this whole thing has got muddled... Perhaps there needs to be clarification.

(in regards to actual infinity)

Earlier on, you claimed that an actual infinity had to be continuous, that discrete sets were never actually infinite.

Wikipedia uses the set of rational numbers, a discrete set, as an example in its "actual infinity" page.

You also used the rational numbers, a discrete set, in one of your descriptions of traversing the infinite.

 

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

Time removed, one would never reach the end logically. That was the point. The paradox is that one could theoretically do an infinite task in a finite time, but the infinite task (that is an infinite number of iterations) itself cannot logically be completed. One cannot confirm one without violating the logic of the other and is why it's called a paradox. The mathematical solution is not the issue.

Once you remove time, then you're no longer talking about Zeno's paradox.  In fact, you're no longer talking about a paradox at all.

Zeno's Paradox basically argued that because Hurcules would have to catch up to the tortoise's previous position an infinite number of times, he would be unable to pass the tortoise no matter how much time he spent chasing it.  Math demonstrates that this is not true.

If you remove time then you're no longer talking about the same paradox.

 

"...the infinite task (that is an infinite number of iterations) itself cannot logically be completed."

Why not?  You only seem to argue that an infinite task cannot be completed no matter how many iterations one performs, but as I explained earlier this doesn't lead to a paradox because it says nothing about time.  The whole point of the math is to demonstrate that certain types of infinite iterations can be completed in a finite amount of time.  If Hercules can fit an infinite number of iterations into 2 seconds, then he'll complete the infinite task and catch up to the tortoise in 2 seconds.  You seem to be arguing that he can't do this simply because there are infinitely many iterations and so he'll "never" be finished, but the math has already demonstrated that all infinity iterations fit in the 2-second window.

1. An infinite number of iterations cannot be completed in a finite number of iterations

2. An infinite number of iterations can be completed in a finite amount of time.

As I said earlier, one conclusion is about iterations while the other is about time.  How do these contradict each other?

Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html

I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.


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Zaq wrote:This is just...

Zaq wrote:


This is just... way off.


Pascal's Wager argues that because there might be a god that rewards theism, one ought to be a theist.



A pragmatic argument deals only with mights. Beliefs are formulated based on what might be. One that bets on (1) would say "I am betting on 1 because 1 might be true." From a pragmatic stance, this is the same thing as saying "I believe 1 to be true." If one does the same for 2, then one is saying "I am betting on 2 because 3 might be true." From a pragmatic stance, one is saying "I believe 3 to be true." Pragmatic justification deals only in possibilities...that which might happen. The actuation of these beliefs is not known at the time one "bets" on them.


Zaq wrote:


Positive infinitesimal values (which infinitesimal probability would be) are greater than 0 and finite. That would mean that any such value multiplied times an infinity results in an infinity. Even an infintesimal probability for the existence of a god is warranted by an infinite payoff.



Thermodynamics and infinite payoff from a diety are apples and oranges...this is a categorical mistake or a bad use of analogy.


ubuntuAnyone wrote:


You also used the rational numbers, a discrete set, in one of your descriptions of traversing the infinite.


It's not that simple..I'm not talking about the definition of the set per se...but the ontological status of the set. Does it actually exist? That's what I was getting at...not so much of its description.


Zaq wrote:


As I said earlier, one conclusion is about iterations while the other is about time.  How do these contradict each other?



I'm saying an infinite number of iterations cannot be completed, logically, time or not time.

 

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Is God infinite ?

                 Of course, as a christian I believe that God is infinite. It occurs to me that those who insist there is no God must rely on science, therefore , the laws of physics would seem to prevail. Since something cannot come from nothing, if there were a God , He would have to be infinite.        Evidently it is easier for some to imagine that hydrogen willed itself into existence and then defied another law of physics by having an effect ( big bang ) without a cause, since there was nothing, or no One, to cause anything to happen.                                                                                                                                   


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Newspeak84

Newspeak84 wrote:

                 Of course, as a christian I believe that God is infinite. It occurs to me that those who insist there is no God must rely on science, therefore , the laws of physics would seem to prevail. Since something cannot come from nothing, if there were a God , He would have to be infinite.        Evidently it is easier for some to imagine that hydrogen willed itself into existence and then defied another law of physics by having an effect ( big bang ) without a cause, since there was nothing, or no One, to cause anything to happen.                                                                                                                                   

No-one believes that hydrogen willed itself into existence. The only thing that may have had to exist before the Big Bang is an energy field that is almost, but not quite, nothing. IOW, something the nearest thing possible to nothing.

That is far easier to believe just existed, or even came into existence spontaneously, than any infinite super-being.

Quantum theory and experiments does show that really small-scale events can occur for no detectable reason, maybe with no 'cause' in the sense we use that term in ordinary terms. Or at least that ultimate 'causes', even ones that ultimately lead to really big effects, need not be anything more than the tiniest possible event. 

Sort of like the idea that one random decay of an particular unstable atom in the middle of a mass of Uranium-235 can start a chain-reaction leading to a nuclear explosion. 

So unless you want to insist God is actually setting off the actual decay of every unstable atom in the universe, proposing the necessity for a God to start the Big-Bang makes no more sense.

 

So God is not a logical explanation for the ultimate origin of the Universe, not least because you still need to explain where God came from.

 

 

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ubuntuAnyone wrote:Zaq

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

Zaq wrote:

You seem to be hung up on "rationalizing 2 requires belief in 3," when it would only really require belief that 3 were possible.  I can believe that something is possible without believing that it's true.  Agnostics of both the theist and atheist type do this.

Pascal's wager is pragmatic justification for belief in a deity. In a pragmatic sense, one's belief is based on consequences. In effect, if one believes 2 because of the consequences of 3, then one is believing 3. The one thing the wager does not allow is for is agnosticm. Abstaining for a bet in a pragmatic sense is an implicit bet for 2. In other words, one is a garanteed loser if he or she does not bet. Proposing that God rewards those who don't bet and acting accordingly is a bet on such a belief, nevertheless.

 

It's only pragmatic because of your obsession around the "justification for belief", it has nothing to do with the (in)validity of the argument itself.

 

All god(s) are unfalsifiable, therefore:

Infinite types of gods (or none) could infinitely reward for any infinite number of reasons. Since the reward and the reason for that reward are unknown then an absense of belief IS obviously a prerequisite possibility contained in that infinite set of reasons. 


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There may even be a whole

There may even be a whole range of 'possible ' Gods who will punish people for believing without justification. There is no way to make any sense of Pascal's Wager without making assumptions about the most likely attributes and motives of such a being, which is intrinsically unknowable.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology