Dec 25

555 The Lighthouse
Posts: 3
Joined: 2009-06-29
User is offlineOffline
Dec 25

Hi All

It is said by Christians that Jesus was born on Dec 25. I know that Dec 25 is the same day that many other religions claim that their god was born too. My question is, since there is no recorded document documenting the day that Jesus was born, who decided that it should be Dec 25. What ((individual or group)) made this decision and at what time in history or years after Jesus supposed death did this decision take place.

Thank You.


geirj
geirj's picture
Posts: 719
Joined: 2007-06-19
User is offlineOffline
Dec. 25 is quite close to

Dec. 25 is quite close to the winter solstice, which is part of the reason the messianic birth stories center around that time.

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

Why Believe?


marshalltenbears
marshalltenbears's picture
Posts: 223
Joined: 2009-02-19
User is offlineOffline
 I am not too sure how

 I am not too sure how accurate this is but I watched this video on youtube. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjGkRFFBd0A&feature=related

"Take all the heads of the people
and hang them up before the Lord
against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4


555 The Lighthouse
Posts: 3
Joined: 2009-06-29
User is offlineOffline
Thank you all.

Thank you all. So far it looks to me that before Christianity were allowed into the Roman Government and/or before (Constantine I) was the Emperor of Rome from 306 to 312 AD, there was ((much argument)) over when Jesus was born. No one back then could pinpoint the day or year. No one can today either. I find it curious too that even after Jesus was executed, no one bothered to recorded the day of his death. It is like no one cared. And when he supposedly rose again, once again no one bothered to record such a historical event with the day that it happen. Or the names of any of the 500 people that supposably saw the event. It is very much like it never happen. If anyone sees an error on my thinking please correct me. 555 The Lighthouse


Nordmann
atheist
Nordmann's picture
Posts: 904
Joined: 2008-04-02
User is offlineOffline
The "dating" of the events

The "dating" of the events within the myth only became important when the structure which the myth had already acquired was transposed onto an existing Roman system in which a calendar, which was itself punctuated by a religious dating system, was to be used to establish observance of christianity in its new role of state religion. To put it simply, if the new religion was to be understood as such in the Roman mentality, then its adherence to a calendar was a must.

The event however which was deemed most necessary to "pin down" to a date was the alleged resurrection, something which was deliberately and specifically inserted into the Roman calendar through edict. The birth of the Jesus character represented a different problem in that a significant number of christians were seemingly not even in agreement that the event should be celebrated at all. What seems to have swung it in December 25th's favour in the end was the military observation of that date as Mithras's birthday, but for a long time the growing tradition was hotly disputed theologically and in fact the church itself opted for January 6th when it finally did get around to trying to standardise things.

In a strictly historiographical sense there is nothing - absolutely nothing - in the biographical details which have accreted to the Jesus character that can be claimed to have a historical basis supported by evidence. Where the story makes specific attempts to link itself to actual events and people it does a very poor job of it and the bulk of the literature which has been devoted to the notion of "proving" Jesus's historicity is in fact an apology designed to account for the obvious anomalies. Of course the most obvious explanation would be that the entire thing is a construct - and in any other branch of historical research this in fact would be the default position. Christianity has traditionally benefited from an exemption to this rule.

 

 

I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy


A_Nony_Mouse
atheist
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

555 The Lighthouse wrote:
Thank you all. So far it looks to me that before Christianity were allowed into the Roman Government and/or before (Constantine I) was the Emperor of Rome from 306 to 312 AD, there was ((much argument)) over when Jesus was born. No one back then could pinpoint the day or year. No one can today either. I find it curious too that even after Jesus was executed, no one bothered to recorded the day of his death. It is like no one cared. And when he supposedly rose again, once again no one bothered to record such a historical event with the day that it happen. Or the names of any of the 500 people that supposably saw the event. It is very much like it never happen. If anyone sees an error on my thinking please correct me. 555 The Lighthouse

There is no consensus that anyone like the Jesus described in the gospels ever existed. Even if he did exist the religion of Christianity uses him as little more than a mascot. Argumentation says the gospels appeared in the late 1st c. but mention does not start until the early mid 2nd c. and then as a singular noun. Not until the late mid 2nd c. is there mention of more than one and the adjective used indicates four however there were eventually some 22 and maybe 7 or 8 that are so close to the accepted four that saying there were only four does not make sense. Despite the names attached as authors they have no basis in evidence.

Mitigating against actual execution is the unnatural death, three days in the underworld and resurrection are central features of the gods Adonis, Attis, Osiris, Tammuz, Mithras and Jesus. Those are the only ones I have verified. I'm sure there were others. Their conquest over death occurred in the spring at the equinox which, if the lunar calendar were a sane calendar would be the date of Easter and Passover. While one can still argue Jesus was executed one has to remark upon the uncanny choice of dates.

(Passover is likely an attempt by the fundamentalist Yahwist cult to take over the Feast of Astarte/Ishtar who along with an Adonis-like Yahweh were the joint gods of bibleland.)

As for getting into the government that is a tale of intrigue which is mostly out in the open. However you need to read that history as it is not as it is interpreted by Christians. It is all power and intrigue devoid devoid of any spiritual context.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Jayhawker Soule
Posts: 14
Joined: 2009-06-25
User is offlineOffline
A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Mitigating against actual execution is the unnatural death, three days in the underworld and resurrection are central features of the gods Adonis, Attis, Osiris, Tammuz, Mithras and Jesus. Those are the only ones I have verified.

Please note that 'verification' is not the same thing as mining the web for unsupported claims supporting your presupposition.


 


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15735
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
And where is it claimed that

And where is it claimed that 500 people saw this event? The Bible.

If I wrote a book and in it claimed I was a billionair you'd be a fool to simply accept it because I wrote it in a book, and then didn't look for multiple independent sources.

Numbers in polytheism and monotheism were literary devices to conflate the motif depicted in the writing. It is the same concept that mood music works in horror films.

Many horror films in the 80s had a subtle moral story. The centered around teens fooling around and drinking and doing drugs. The heros that survived were usually the ones who did not partake in those things. Yet no sane person literally believes that Jason can take an axe to the skull and keep moving as nothing happened.

In any case proving the existence of Jesus would not demonstrate HOW human flesh would survive rigor mortis. We know George Washington existed but no sane person would claim he could fart a full sized Lamborghini out of his ass.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15735
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
December 25th as used by

December 25th as used by modern Christianity is a result of ancient Christians adapting the date to compete with other religions around them at the time.

Scientology is a modern example of starting a new religion by incerting old characters, symbols and elements to attract followers.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Awelton85
Superfan
Awelton85's picture
Posts: 143
Joined: 2009-01-03
User is offlineOffline
Dec. 25 has nothing to do

Dec. 25 has nothing to do with religion anymore. It was started by Christians, but it is only sacred the stores that bank off Christmas. I have only found two Christians that really believed this was the date that Jesus was born. All other Christians say that it an observed date of the coming of the lord.

Either way it's all bullshit, and it's bad for ya.

"So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence." - Bertrand Russell

Stewie: Yay and God said to Abraham, "you will kill your son, Issak", and Abraham said, I can't hear you, you'll have to speak into the microphone." "Oh I'm sorry, Is this better? Check, check, check... Jerry, pull the high end out, I'm still getting some hiss back here."


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
marshalltenbears wrote:

marshalltenbears wrote:

 

I am not too sure how accurate this is but I watched this video on youtube.

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjGkRFFBd0A&feature=related

 

Well, the legends of other people who may have had stuff in common with god jr are substantially correct and rather well documented.

 

As far as the astrology goes, I am an amateur astronomer and I can check out the alignments with software that I have. What I get is not spot on accurate but it is kind of close. Then too, I doubt that my software can be regressed thousands of years with much accuracy as I would have to allow for the sun's motion as the galaxy rotates, so just possibly the alignment was a bit closer in ancient times. Whatever though, it is probably close enough for ancient farmers.

 

However, I have my doubts about the equivalence of the zodiac and the number of the apostles. The ancient Hebrews used a lunar calendar not a solar one. So they would not likely have picked up on there being 12 zodiacal constellations.

 

Awelton85 wrote:
Dec. 25 has nothing to do with religion anymore. It was started by Christians, but it is only sacred the stores that bank off Christmas. I have only found two Christians that really believed this was the date that Jesus was born. All other Christians say that it an observed date of the coming of the lord. Either way it's all bullshit, and it's bad for ya.

 

Actually, dec 25 has not really been about religion for a very long time. The early church did not make a big deal about x-mas as they were converting a pagan holiday. What mattered to them was passover/easter as the former was a huge holiday for the Hebrews and the latter represented the culmination of the whole Christian identity.

 

Honestly, december 25 remained an excuse to get drunk and party right up to the time of the industrial revolution. Then, with massive numbers of people moving into cities and lots of products to sell, the Victorians began to commercialize the holiday. Religion does not come into play here until the middle of the last century when people began to be disgusted with the commercialization of the day and there were few people left who remembered how the day used to be celebrated.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


A_Nony_Mouse
atheist
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

Jayhawker Soule wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Mitigating against actual execution is the unnatural death, three days in the underworld and resurrection are central features of the gods Adonis, Attis, Osiris, Tammuz, Mithras and Jesus. Those are the only ones I have verified.
Please note that 'verification' is not the same thing as mining the web for unsupported claims supporting your presupposition

Nor is mining a library but when one finds the original sources and reference materials online the difference is no more than distrusting those newfangled computers.

In this case verification means finding the myth associated with the god and verifying the central element being a triumph over dead after three days in the underworld. As any Christian will tell you and as Paul is famous for writing were there no resurrection there is no point to the teaching.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3917
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
555 The Lighthouse wrote:Hi

555 The Lighthouse wrote:
Hi All It is said by Christians that Jesus was born on Dec 25. I know that Dec 25 is the same day that many other religions claim that their god was born too. My question is, since there is no recorded document documenting the day that Jesus was born, who decided that it should be Dec 25. What ((individual or group)) made this decision and at what time in history or years after Jesus supposed death did this decision take place. Thank You.

Santa Claus decided to deliver presents every year on Dec. 25. So the Christians conveniently adopted this date so they wouldn't have to buy and presents for Christmas.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


Awelton85
Superfan
Awelton85's picture
Posts: 143
Joined: 2009-01-03
User is offlineOffline
Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
Honestly, december 25 remained an excuse to get drunk and party right up to the time of the industrial revolution.

That is still what I use it for. Not even the hardcore baptists around here look down at you if you are drunk on Christmas. You can even wander to their house and start singing if you want.

Now that I think about it, I love Christmas!

"So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence." - Bertrand Russell

Stewie: Yay and God said to Abraham, "you will kill your son, Issak", and Abraham said, I can't hear you, you'll have to speak into the microphone." "Oh I'm sorry, Is this better? Check, check, check... Jerry, pull the high end out, I'm still getting some hiss back here."


manofmanynames (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
Nordmann wrote: Of course

Nordmann wrote:
 Of course the most obvious explanation would be that the entire thing is a construct - and in any other branch of historical research this in fact would be the default position. Christianity has traditionally benefited from an exemption to this rule.

Dude, you sound like a clueless creationist. Exemption to the rule? Wtf you talking about? So is the Buddha also an exception to the rule as well?

But seriously, to save you some embarrassment, if you don't know shit about the historical method, you should think twice before throwing around your two cents. 


Rich Woods
Rational VIP!
Rich Woods's picture
Posts: 868
Joined: 2008-02-06
User is offlineOffline
Between Kwanzaa, Christmas

Between Kwanzaa, Christmas and Hannaka... Its a terrific way for theists to veil their bigotry...

 

For my wife and I...as well as other like minded people...The Holidays are like a Friday afternoon for the entire year... We shop, party and have fun... NYC at Xmas time is awesome...the bars are buzzing... the laughs come easy... and there are more parties than we can attend...

We really get into this shit...

  


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15735
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Rich Woods wrote:Between

Rich Woods wrote:

Between Kwanzaa, Christmas and Hannaka... Its a terrific way for theists to veil their bigotry...

 

For my wife and I...as well as other like minded people...The Holidays are like a Friday afternoon for the entire year... We shop, party and have fun... NYC at Xmas time is awesome...the bars are buzzing... the laughs come easy... and there are more parties than we can attend...

We really get into this shit...

  

You should have warned us how hot your wife is. Now I need to clean off my computer screen and have a smoke.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Jeffrick
High Level DonorRational VIP!SuperfanGold Member
Jeffrick's picture
Posts: 2446
Joined: 2008-03-25
User is offlineOffline
Dear Santa

           Can you put me on Rich Woods christmass card list,   I'll leave you an extra donut.

 

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


Awelton85
Superfan
Awelton85's picture
Posts: 143
Joined: 2009-01-03
User is offlineOffline
Hey Rich, it looks like your

Hey Rich, it looks like your wife got two bowling balls for christma....... Wait a second....... Those aren't bowling balls.

You bastard. You have ruined Christmas with one picture. My Christmas mornings will forever seem pale in comparison.

I'd better get a pony.

"So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence." - Bertrand Russell

Stewie: Yay and God said to Abraham, "you will kill your son, Issak", and Abraham said, I can't hear you, you'll have to speak into the microphone." "Oh I'm sorry, Is this better? Check, check, check... Jerry, pull the high end out, I'm still getting some hiss back here."


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3945
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Mitigating against actual execution is the unnatural death, three days in the underworld and resurrection are central features of the gods Adonis, Attis, Osiris, Tammuz, Mithras and Jesus. Those are the only ones I have verified.

Please note that 'verification' is not the same thing as mining the web for unsupported claims supporting your presupposition.

Ah, but I'm willing to bet that haven't studied these Gods at all. You're just assuming that these claims are unsupported because the alternative is unacceptable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-death-rebirth_deity

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa1.htm

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


Rich Woods
Rational VIP!
Rich Woods's picture
Posts: 868
Joined: 2008-02-06
User is offlineOffline
Aw shucks, thanks

Aw shucks, thanks fellas.

Yeah, she's not your garden variety 45 year old...