Jesus died for my sins, without my permission?
Offline Hi guys! I've been a lurker on here for quite some time now. Gotta love the intelligence this forum has to offer! Today I have a question that I cannot already find an answer to though. Perhaps someone can help me? Thanks so much if you can!
Okay, so I've been slowly forming this thought, and I was wondering if my logic is correct..
I am having a very difficult time accepting Jesus Christ as any sort of savior to me simply because his followers make this claim that he "died for my sins" -- but before I was ever given the opportunity to let (or not let) him do so.
I mean, what if I didn't want eternal life? What if I didn't want someone supposedly dieing for my sins? (Assuming someone could even do such a thing in the first place.)
Where is my freedom of choice in all of this?
Of course we know what supposedly happens if I don't accept Jesus as my savior -- I go to hell, or at least not get into heaven. I'm more concerned about the fact that I was born AFTER Jesus apparently died for my sins though.
It just seems so unfair! Can someone help me with this?
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You know . . . if I were to create a video of Dawkins or Harris's worldview . . . all would want to know when did he say that or where is that written, and yet . . . where is ratdog. He puts a 5 minute video which, supposedly, sums up the message of the Bible and then, when he is called on it (where is it written) . . . he cannot even answer one question. What is wrong? You have not provided one scripture either.
You stated - no one on the planet deserves eternal torment. You state that as fact, and yet it is 100% your opinion. By what authority can you make that claim? Perhaps many would say that Hitler or Stalin deserve it. Just curious, what would be justice for either one of those guys. Hitler killed himself . . . was that justice? How would you or I even be qualified to determine if it was justice? I did not have a relative experimented on, tortured, enslaved, or murdered by him or his regime. If he would have been caught, most likely he would have been put to death, but was that justice? I wonder if the Jewish people would share your opinion.
Upon seeing your statement concerning Jesus and satan: Let me simply ask a few more questions.
1. You have yet to show even one passage that I asked for, but let me ask again . . . "Where is the passage that states that God SENT satan?" The first flaw in your logic . . . since you are an atheist you don't believe in God, but IF YOU DID BELIEVE IN GOD, where would you get your information about this God. According to you, you just make it up. As a Christian, the only standard in which I can measure God is by his Word. In other words, if I believe something about God and it does not line up with scripture, I must abandon that belief. By the way, to make up a God that you like is called idolatry. Case in point, is another theists that says she likes to think of God as only love. Well, the Bible also tells us that he is a God of righteousness, justice, truth, mighty, the alpha and omega, grace, mercy, and most importantly . . . HOLY. So, for her to neglect all of these descriptions of God and only focus on LOVE, is wrong. You stated that God sent satan . . . scripture does not tell us that. In Genesis 3 - the serpent (satan) is just there. It does not tell us how he got there.
2. I assume, based upon your statement, that you do not believe in free will. You must believe that God simply orders all things and we, including satan, do not have the ability to make choices for ourselves. Well, the Bible doesn't say that either. I do believe in the sovereignty of God and I also believe that logical creatures (man and angels) are responsible for their actions. THAT IS PRESENTED IN SCRIPTURE. Satan could have chosen NOT to rebel against God. Satan could have chosen to leave man alone . . . but he didn't. By the way, would you explain how satan tricked man. Satan certainly lied to man, but trick????
Man had all the information. If you eat from the tree, you will die. God did not hide any of the truth from man. Even with all that information, man still chose to rebel or disobey. Look at mankind today. We know that lying is hurtful and it is wrong . . . and yet we lie. Today, you know that without Jesus Christ you will go to hell and be separated from your creator, and yet; you will reject that truth and insert your own . . . kind of like Adam and Eve. There is no trick here. You have been given all the information - but you will still choose to rebel against God.
Still waiting for those scripture references.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
a bunch of verses in mind that apply to the trickery of satan. I can see why you want to see them as they do call into question the concept of freewill - at least as far as a christian would define it. However, I'm on a magazine deadline at the moment and won't finish till tomorrow night so I'll have to take a moment to reply. Excuse me.
Just in the interim, however, when we are talking about your religion's god we're obviously both going to be quoting your religion's bible. The alternative is that we cannot talk about this at all. Quite obviously the bible is the key source of your intellectual and spiritual nourishment. It's the only ground we can meet on - I can't see you sallying forth into a secular reality.
In terms of the irrationality of my position, I'm the son of a fundy preacher father and a missionary mother and my evangelical protestantism was loaded on at the bios level. It may make no sense to anyone else that I simultaneously don't believe in, and yet have an intense personal loathing for god and the landscape of the bible but nevertheless, it's the nature of me and I cannot undo it. If the business could be known I'm sure we'd find that bible owns my amygdala and science owns my cortex.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
1. There is no passage that says "God sent Satan". However, we can make inferences based on other scriptures. Satan could not have become the embodiment of evil without the creation of evil (Isa 45:7). We know from the book of Job that Satan is still under God's command and can be summoned and sent where God desires. I Kings 22:22 and 1 Samuel 16:14 talk about God sending evil spirits to people.
2. Actually that depends on the form of Christianity you follow as well. Some believe God predestines all things, some believe they have free will and some believe that the laws of God and man don't matter because Jesus died on the Cross.
As for Satan's "choice" - you forget how much God needed man to sin and fall. He went in expecting to use the backup plan of offering himself to himself.
Did man really have all the information? They lacked the knowledge of good and evil that would let them make sense of God's command (hence the need to place the tree and the serpent). The trick wasn't Satan's/the serpent's (Jury is still out on their equivalence) but God's.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Sorry to be a bit late with this. Satan is called the deceiver, the tempter. He beguiled Eve in the garden of Eden. He is the opposite of god yet was in the 'perfect' garden of eden lying to Eve. All this at a time when Eve had no knowledge of good and evil and had not been warned of Satan or his power or the seriousness of falling prey to his guile. You can say Satan did not trick Eve and does not seek to trick all people but you are contesting your own sources when you do so.
What is satan doing in the world trying to get us into hell? Who created him, who sent him? Who threw him out of heaven and gave him dominion over the earth and people?
Matthew 13:19 -- In the parable of the sower, Jesus called him the "evil one" who snatches the word from men's hearts. [Cf. Mark 4:15; Matt. 13:38; 1 John 2:13,14; 3:12; 5:18]
1 John 3:8 -- The devil has sinned from the beginning. At the Garden of Eden he lied to Eve and beguiled her (deceived/tricked her).
Matthew 13:39 -- The parable of the tares describes him as an enemy (of God). He opposes all the good that God seeks to accomplish.
1 Peter 5:8 -- The devil is our adversary who walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
[John 8:44; Matt. 12:24; Eph. 2:2]
Satan Is the Cause of Suffering, Disease, and Death.
Job 1:6-2:7 - Satan caused the death of Job's children, loss of Job's possessions, and loss of Job's health.
Acts 10:38 - Jesus healed people who were oppressed by the Devil.
Luke 13:16 - Jesus said the woman who was bowed over had been bound by Satan.
2 Corinthians 12:7 -- Paul's thorn in the flesh was a messenger of Satan.
Hebrews 2:14 - Satan has the power of death.
Suffering, disease, and death were all caused by Satan.
Sin was committed as a result of Satan's temptation [Gen. 3:16-19].
Satan Is a Tempter.
He is not content just to be evil himself - he wants everyone else to be evil too.
Genesis 3:1-6 -- Satan (as a serpent) beguiled Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. He appealed to the lust of the flesh (good for food), the lust of the eyes (a delight to the eyes) and the pride of life (it would make one wise). [Cf. 1 John 2:15-17]
Matthew 4:1-11 - Satan tempted Jesus by similar appeals. V3 calls him "the tempter."
John 13:2 - The devil put it in Judas' heart to betray Jesus. [v27; Luke 22:3]
Acts 5:3 - Satan filled Ananias' heart to lie to the Holy Spirit about his gift.
[1 Thess. 3:5; Eph. 6:16; 2:2; 1 Cor. 7:5; 1 Tim. 5:15; 3:6,7; John 8:44; Acts 13:10; 1 John 3:12; 1 Chron. 21:1]
Having led men into sin, Satan then opposes and hinders all God's efforts to save men from sin [2 Cor. 4:4; Acts 13:10; 1 Thess. 2:18; Mark 4:15; Rev. 2:10].
Satan is truly an enemy of man in the greatest possible way: he seeks to cause our eternal condemnation and hinders every effort to prevent our escape from it. Surely we need to understand his evil purposes. We must never cooperate with him but oppose him in every way.
[Matt. 16:23; Luke 22:31]
V. Satan Is a Deceiver.
A. Scriptures
Revelation 12:9 - The devil or Satan is the deceiver of the whole world.
John 8:44 - He is a liar and the father of liars. There is no truth in him. He must lie and deceive to get a following.
Gen. 3:1-5,13 - The serpent was subtle and lied to Eve -- beguiled (deceived) her.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 -- This is standard procedure for Satan. He transforms himself into an angel of light. Satan is the world's greatest counterfeiter.
Satan He works through agents. God has sent true preachers, apostles, and prophets, so Satan makes counterfeits -- false teachers, apostles, and prophets.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 -- False teachers do not appear as false teachers or no one would believe them. They are "deceitful workers" who appear as ministers of righteousness.
Isaiah 5:20 -- Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil. Yet that is Satan's favorite trick. His workers are wolves in sheep's clothing (Matt. 7:15).
[2 Thess. 2:9,10; Eph. 6:11; Matt. 13:39; 2 Cor. 4:4]
Worship
Satan gets people to offer counterfeit forms of worship.
Matthew 15:9 -- And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. This worship is worthless, like the counterfeit money.
Jesus built His church and is the head of it (Matt. 16:18; Eph. 1:22,23). So to fool people, Satan makes counterfeit churches. They appear to be serving God, but are not really following His will.
Matthew 7:21-23 -- Fooled by false teachers (v15-20), people think they are serving God, but Jesus will rejected them because they are not doing the will of the Father.
Satan makes counterfeit ways that offer men salvation, but they are not in harmony with Jesus' gospel.
Galatians 1:8 -- But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
Satan Is Powerful.
Acts 26:18 -- Paul's preaching turned men from the POWER of Satan unto God.
John 12:31 -- He is the prince of this world. His will rules in the lives of hosts of people.
Ephesians 6:11,12 -- We wrestle in spiritual warfare with Satan and the spiritual hosts of wickedness in high places.
[Eph. 5:11; 2:2; 2 Cor. 4:4; John 14:30; 16:11; Rev. 2:13; 1 Thess. 2:9; Matthew 4:1-10; Job 1,2]
Satan Has the Power of Captivity and Death.
1 Peter 5:8 -- He is like a powerful lion, seeking to devour us.
John 8:34 -- Whoever commits sin is his bond servant. Sin is disobedience to God and obedience to Satan, whether or not we intend it to be.
2 Timothy 2:26 -- As a result, many people have been taken captive by Satan. As an army captures prisoners of war, so sin in our lives makes us prisoners of Satan.
Hebrews 2:14 -- He has the power of death. Death is the consequence of sin. Those who do not escape Satan's captivity will eventually die spiritually.
[Acts 13:10; 1 John 3:8,10]
Satan is a wild, powerful, dangerous lion, sly and deceitful.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Let me start by saying, “thank you” jcgadfly, for a couple of reasons. You posted something with substance. It was not just a hit and run as the video was. My question is why do you guys not call other atheists on such things. I understand that you and others do not believe the bible, but it is not worth debating others when they post things the Bible simply does not say and then ask a Christian to defend it. Secondly, thank you for the verses. That is something real that is now worth discussing. Some of what you wrote, I agree with. Other points, I do not believe are correct. I would like to address them now.
You are correct in your first statement - "There is no passage that says, "God sent Satan." The passage we were discussing was Genesis 3 . . . and Genesis 3 only. So again, it does not say that God sent Satan. You stated that “God can summon or send satan that we can make inferences based on other scriptures.” Based upon that logic, God always does everything the same way. No Christian believes that. I can summon and send my son to the store, but that doesn’t mean that each time he is at the store that I sent him. What we must also acknowledge is that just because God does something in one passage doesn't mean he will do it the exact same way in another passage. It seems to me that when God does send evil spirits – the Bible tells us such things. In the case of Genesis 3 – we are not told that. For you or I to say that God did send Satan is speculation at best.
So, let's deal with the other statements you propose. You brought up Isaiah 45:7. I am assuming you are using the KJV. A couple of things one must consider.
1. Context - This seems to be a recurring theme on this site. Anyone can look at all I have written and then take the first three words of paragraph 2 and say, "RevLyle wrote, "You are correct." I did write that, but put in context, I only acknowledged that you were correct about some things and incorrect about others. In context and with the original language it is very easy to see that what you are proposing is incorrect concerning Isaiah 45.
In context, God is telling Israel that He is the one who rewards them for obedience and He is the one who punishes them for disobedience. What is clear here is that MORAL evil is not the issue. (I will cover that more in the Hebrew). The other issue when it comes to context is that God is presenting contrast. Light is the opposite of Darkness. Evil IS NOT the opposite of peace. You will notice that in the NASB, ESV, NIV, even the NKJV you will see such words as disaster and calamity. These words do present the opposite of peace.
2. As far as the language that is used - the Hebrew word that is translated "evil" in the KJV is transliterated "ra." That one word is translated into 18 different words in the Old Testament and it is used 663 times in the KJV. So, how do we know what word to use if there are 18 different choices . . . context. Even if one wants to hang onto the word "evil" - that word does not always mean morality (sin) in the Bible. For instance: 1 Kings 22:18 - the evil that God brings is not moral evil (sin), but rather calamity and destruction. The evil in this verse, as in 45:7, is not speaking about moral evil. Moral evil is rebellion against God and his laws. God did not create that evil or rebellion.
THE POINT: This verse does not say that God created sin or moral evil as you propose. Lastly I would ask, is evil a created thing? You can't see, touch, feel, smell or hear evil. The Bible doesn't tell us that God created love either. It simply says that God is love.
Concerning Job: I also believe that satan is under the authority of God and he can be summoned and sent - but you need to go back and read the story. Satan shows up in Job 1:6 Here is what it says in context. Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the Lord and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." So here again - Satan just shows up. It doesn't say he was summoned and when God asked - "Where have you been" Satan, it appears, simply says he has been doing his own thing. He did not say, I have been doing your bidding. Now what is interesting about your Job analogy (a ton of theology in this story) is that Satan asked permission to do things to Job, but even then - Whereas God allowed Satan to - destroy or remove Job's flocks, his servants, and his children - Job 1:22- Through all this Job DID NOT sin nor did he blame God.
Now think about that. Eve was simply lied to and she disobeyed God. Job loses almost everything and he does not sin. Both are responsible for their actions.
Let's look at the 1 Kings passage. Here is where I agree with you - these evil spirits are sent, but I am not sure you have read the entire story. Again, all the information was provided to the King of Israel. God speaks to a prophet and the prophet tells the King in so many words - an evil spirit volunteered to go and entice the King of Israel to go into battle where he will be killed. The prophet also tells the king God sent the evil spirit and if he goes into battle - he will die. The king then imprisons the prophet and even then the prophet tells him - "if he returns, God did not speak through him." An evil spirit tempted the king. God told the king through a prophet that he would die and that the other prophets were lying. The king ignored, went into battle, and died. The point is that God once again provided all the information, and the king chose to ignore God, go into battle and he died. God told him exactly what would happen and the king decided to go fight anyway.
1 Samuel - No argument from me. God sent or allowed an evil spirit to terrorize Saul. I am just not sure what the point is. The reason God sent the evil spirit was not to tempt Saul into sin . . . it was to terrorize him for his disobedience.
Look, we can go around and around presenting different theories about how is responsible for our sins, but scripture plainly tells us. In James it says this. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings death. Do you know why Adam and Eve ate of the fruit . . . because they wanted it. Then they acted on it and death and decay was born.
In Genesis 3 - you are proposing that God said, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." and Adam and Eve could not make sense of it. That is certainly an incredible stretch. If that was true, then why did Eve not only repeat the command, but also add to it. It was death that was a deterrent and when asked by Satan, she even stated that if they "touched it" they would die. Another problem with your suggestion is that if Adam and Eve did not understand death, then why would Satan claim that death would not occur when he tempted Eve. If death was inconceivable, then why did satan say, “You will not surely die.” If death was not a deterrent, one cannot claim that it was an enticement either. What you propose is mere speculation and the text of the story certainly does not support your proposal.
This is equivalent to someone saying that they murdered another person because they didn't understand what the death penalty meant, but upon cross examination it was revealed that the murder took place because the individual was assured he wouldn't get the death penalty. The second statement renders the first false.
Lastly, when you were writing about different forms of Christianity, you were referring to reformed theology (Calvinistic) and Arminian theology. What is important to understand is that the reformed guy believes in predestination, but he also believes in the real consequences of man's choices. Along that line, the Arminian believes in free will, but he also acknowledges the sovereignty of God. Even though they view scripture differently, they do not deny the existence of the other. With that being said, I believe you are wrong when you state. "God needed man to sin and fall." The correct way to view that is simply, "God knew that man would sin and fall." The death of Jesus was not a backup plan, but was planned before creation (time) began. There is plenty of scripture that states that fact.
Could God have made them NOT SIN? That is a different philosophical discussion.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Satan is bad. No problem here. What is your point? What are you attempting to present that is suppose to rock my faith?
When talking about Genesis 3 - God told them the truth. Satan told Eve - you will not die, you can be like God. 2 lies. You say he tricked them.
Not sure how the word trick or lie change the debate. What I see is you simply attempting to us the victimology of this age, as if Adam and Eve were in no way responsible for their actions. I simply do not see it that way. Again, they had all the information.
If my child has been told . . . do not go into the street or you will be in trouble, and yet; a truck comes by and accidently drops a box of candy in the street . . . the command is still, "Do not go into the street." It doesn't matter if the candy was good. It doesn't matter if other kids went in the street. It doesn't matter if the other kids ask my child to go into the street. It doesn't matter if they tell my child, you will not get into trouble. The command is still, "Do not go into the street." If under all the pressure, my child goes into the street . . . they were not tricked. They were disobedient. They deserve to be in trouble. That is what they were told. They had all the information concerning their desire to go into the street.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
I have zero interest in trying to rock your faith. We fell into this angle of conversation because I implied that if god sent jesus to save us he also sent satan to trick us, to lie to us, to deceive us. Now you can use the vested interest you have in saving your own skinny ass to ignore what the bible says but the fact is that god gave satan, who the bible says wants nothing more than to include us in his sin, dominion of the earth before we arrived on it. I don't expect you to come up with a coherent argument against this so don't bother trying.
But tell me. If you think your child going into the street against your will warrants them being in trouble, is it eternity screaming in a lake of fire trouble??? If so, what sort of father are you and more importantly, what sort of a father is your god?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Wow, I didn't realize the video was going to make you so angry. If I had I may have checked back on this thread sooner and given you a response. I may not know all that much about the bible, but the bible dose talk about hell. I simple to no accept that a god could both send you to hell and love you. Just as there are certain things a parent can't do to their child and still claim to love them. It makes not sense at all. Whatever, I'm sure you've already rationalized it somehow so it doesn't really matter what I say. By the way why did you put the words "thank you" in quotation marks?
Like all fundamentalist theists, RevLyle's position is built on self hatred. The good reverend believes he is so evil he deserves eternal hell and by extension, so does everyone else. He's quite merciless about this and since his eternal life hinges on the sacrifice at calvary, there's no possible way he will bend from his insistence on the veracity of blood sacrifice. It's a fascinating conduit to the temple of baal, I'm sure you'll agree.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
The truest thing you have said thus far "I may not know all that much about the bible." There is no anger - I am just amazed at the lazyness. Ratdog - you posted a video that made claims that you did not even take the time to investigate. Again, If I were to post an animation making claims about y'alls heros (Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris) you would want documentation to back up those claims. Of course, that standard does not apply to you.
I am not a scientist. I therefore do not go an post in the science portion of this site. You evidently have chosen to not read nor study scripture in order to have an intelligent conversation and yet you quickly post a video about the Bible that is simply a lie. What is the point? You did not even write anything, you simply posted someone else's ignorance. That is truly lazy and stupid, or perhaps both.
There was no hidden meaning about putting thank you in quotes.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
You have once again proven my point for me. You wrote, "I implied." That is my point. If God exist, and he does, then how are we to know about God except that he tells us? What he has told us is all that we can know. Anything more than that, is simply speculation. You have decided (God sent Satan) and that is your view of God which is simply an opinion - that is all. My view of God is based upon God's revelation of himself.
Your title line in one of your post was this - "Now Reverend Doctor." Just curious, where did you get the idea that I was a doctor? Have I told you that? What has led you to believe that? At no point in time have I referred to my education. Are you reading something into my posts that would suggest that I am a doctor? I wonder, is that assumption correct or incorrect? My point is that you have made an assumption or you have implied something that may or may not be true . . . but you have done it based solely on lack of information. That is exactly what you have done concerning God. You have implied something that God did not tell us about himself.
Lastly, you prove my point concerning the child in the street. Let's say you drove by as I was punishing my child for being in the street. Perhaps you think that a stern talking or time-out is sufficient for his or her disobedience. I, as the parent, have decided that a spanking or whipping is the correct punishment. My punishment is within the law and you have absolutely no authority to tell me that my punishment is wrong. It is simply your opinion. Perhaps you even get out of your car and plead, because you say, "A child should not get a spanking for simply going out into the street once and disobeying you." Well, now you are sharing your opinion based upon ignorance. How do you know this has not been a recurring problem? Perhaps that has been the 5th, or 50th, or even the 500th time that has happened. Perhaps I have given the child lesser consequences many, many times before, but they simply refused to obey.
Oh yeah, you want to know about that suffering for eternity. Well, you have yet to answer even one question. You stated "no one on the planet deserves eternal torment." I asked you, "Based upon what authority do you make that proclamation." I am still waiting for your answer. I wonder . . . if you believe that no one deserves this eternal torment, can you tell the length of the effects from someone like Hitler? In other words, what was the cost for all the murders, torture, and death? Is it possible that the cost is infinite? Can you quantify all of the agony and hurt that he put on others. You seem to know what the extent of one's punishment should be, so I am curious if you can give me the extent of the damage he caused?
I am also curious, if someone steals $500 from you. If the thief is caught and convicted, should the punishment simply be that he repays $500. That is certainly not how our court system works. Just curious, can you even add up the emotional and/or psychological scars of someone who has been robbed at gun point. That will affect the rest of their life. It will affect the way they respond to strangers. It will affect the way they raise their children and their grandchildren. I wonder what it will do to their relationship with their spouse. Does the theft affect the way others view the nationality of the thief? What is interesting is that you have absolutely NO KNOWLEDGE of these things, and yet; you feel qualified to determine what is right or wrong when it comes to another's punishment. I don’t think you even believe what you have written. Looking forward to your answers.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Sorry for not getting back to this - real life is trying to bite me.
1. What I see also is that the other versions you cited have other (often political) motivations for choosing their translations. People have problems with their all-good, all loving God creating evil so they look for less accurate copies that have safer translations of that word. I am also not really sure how one can say a physical evil is less evil than a moral evil. It seems like a mismatch - you didn't suck up to the god in the prescribed manner so he lays waste to your land and family? Is he the god of justice or overkill?
2. If God didn't create moral evil and rebellion, who did? Christians are often fond of saying that the power of creation belongs to God alone. If man or Satan created evil - that ranks them both equal with God. you sure you want to do that?
3. You belied yourself - the sons of God presented themselves to him on a day prescribed by God - divine commands aren't voluntary are they? Further, Job believed himself to be afflicted by God, not Satan. Job also had knowledge of rules about what sin was and the knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve lacked this knowledge. Otherwise, why even have the tree there? If they already had the knowledge of good and evil, gaining that knowledge wouldn't have been a temptation.
4. The 1 Kings passage - if God had said no to the lying spirit do you think it would have risked non-existence to go anyway?
5. 1 Samuel - your argument that God does not perpetrate evil. The scripture says he does (just by proxy).
6. Why do kids exaggerate perceived threats and say things like "If I do <x>, my folks will kill me"? They're kids, they know no better. Adam and Eve were the same way. they embellished the threat to make it seem nastier. Of course, one could also say that the author added that point in to move the plot along.
7. God knew that man would sin and fall because he knew that he was going to set up the situation that allowed for it (a more focused and correct view).
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
pointless as talking to theists always is. My arguments prove your arguments? You are being obtuse. In an earlier post I said when we talk about god we rely on the same text or we can't converse at all. Do you have a short term memory problem? When I quote the bible I am quoting something that man made up about a god who doesn't exist. I am merely pointing out your own invented text is full of shit. I'm not proving that god exists by using your invented text - the entire discussion is flummery. I call you reverend doctor not because you are displaying any great learning beyond the narrow channels of your doctrine but because you call yourself 'reverend' and I am taking the piss out of you. But it's meant to be cheeky not insulting. My father was a reverend doctor.
Your claims god did not send satan are far less supported than my claims that he did. I am at least supported by the fact god is in charge - he has to take some responsibility for events in his own garden. Why is satan allowed into the garden of eden, pre-sin? Why reverend doctor Lyle? Why? Are you telling me you have never wondered about this? Do you have a brain inside your head that actually asks questions? Or are you a robot with no desire to apply freewill for fear of falling from grace?
Let's play a game to make it easy for you. Do try to follow. God is the headmaster of a school. And Satan is the senior master. Both are fully grown, powerful people. They are totally in charge. Eve is a grade 1 student of 6 years old who has no idea what is going on. She does not even understand what sin is. On her first day of school god says to eve, you mustn't walk on the quadrangle grass. If you do, you will die. Later, eve is walking on the path around the quad and Senior Master Satan says, what are you doing eve? Why won't you walk on the grass? Eve says because god said if I did I would die. Satan replies, no you won't - that isn't true. You'll be fine. And if you walk on the grass you'll get a gold star in all your tests for the rest of the year. And because she believes what Senior Master Satan has told her, eve walks on the grass.
Now right reverend doctor, who is it that carries the responsibility for this? Anyone with half a brain would say it's the grown-ups - satan and god. God is running a school with a quadrangle of death in the middle of it. God was also responsible for hiring Senior Master Satan, a teacher of dubious character who has already had a massive falling out with god and who god knows is trying to propagate sin. Meanwhile Senior Master Satan lied to eve and deceived her. But Eve - she has no appreciation for what is going on. She does not even have a knowledge of good and evil at the time she does wrong. She is a child.
Moving on, you may chide your kids any way you please but there are obviously limits. When I was growing up I got a smack or something held back or whatever. But the most effective lessons related to being praised for being responsible or for doing the right thing. Getting respect from your parents for good behaviour is the most powerful learning tool. Parents don't realise this.
Now reverend doctor. Let's discuss hell. Love and morality as we understand them are things god is alleged by your book to have given us. When I apply my own concepts of love and morality and mercy and forgiveness it's obvious that eternal incineration for slights against an invisible god, the most heinous of which is actually not believing he is there are plain bloody stupid. If god wants a personal relationship with me, let him appear in front of me and have one already. This shilly shallying is ridiculous.
Eternal incineration is an argument from force that will only convince weak and guilty minds. No half sensible person is going to love god because he says if you don't he'll torment you forever.
If some one took $500 from me I'd like my money back and a heartfelt apology. But this said I've forgiven people who've stolen from me and not given anything back and who have not even apologised. What else can you do sometimes? I would not want them burnt for a single second. Perhaps I'd want 500 stolen from them to teach them empathy - nothing more. And I am not a mighty god, the personification of love. I'm just a human being.
That's the trouble, reverend doctor. God says love your brother but expects us to stop loving our brother when it's time to pull the flame thrower out. Not very sensible.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Oh yeah, you want to know about that suffering for eternity. Well, you have yet to answer even one question. You stated "no one on the planet deserves eternal torment." I asked you, "Based upon what authority do you make that proclamation." I am still waiting for your answer. I wonder . . . if you believe that no one deserves this eternal torment, can you tell the length of the effects from someone like Hitler? In other words, what was the cost for all the murders, torture, and death? Is it possible that the cost is infinite? Can you quantify all of the agony and hurt that he put on others. You seem to know what the extent of one's punishment should be, so I am curious if you can give me the extent of the damage he caused?
Man . . . you either refuse to answer or you have a reading comprehension problem. You keep asking questions, but you have yet to deal with one question several posts back. Why is that? Come on, you can do it . . . or have you never thought about it before. That is what you accuse me of.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
It's simple really.
In the Old Testament, the punishment usually fit the crime. There were cases where God killed capriciously but for the most part a crime met with a punishement that matched.
when the conept of Hell was added in the NT - that balance went away. Minor infractions like not believing in him were met with roasting in eternal flames.
Is this God the god of justice or overkill?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Nobody dies for my "sins" (or vices?) except me...... I would think the world would be a better place if everyone would simply accept this ostensible fact. But of course, not many people will.
To elaborate on this, everyone is responsible for their actions, ultimately, and that the world is better off if others would simply accept this. In short, the world is 10% what happens to you, and 90% what you do to it.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
What sort of question is that for you to ask - you want me to define the amount of time people deserve in hellfire based on each sin? Stupid. I don't know and nor do you. The thing I do know is that merrily incinerating everyone from half grown kids to the elderly is immoral. Incinerating people, torturing people is immoral. I don't care what mistakes they've made. Harming people is wrong - that applies to everyone, including god.That's my rule. Don't deliberately fucking hurt people.
How about this. God's justice is perfect, you obviously believe. So, Rev Lyle - would you act as the agent of god's justice and press the button on the furnaces and burn a sinner? Just an average ordinary person guilty of typical everyday sins. You know the sort of person. A person who is essentially good but does not happen to believe in god. Just answer than one question. Would you Rev Lyle, incinerate one ordinary sinner yourself.
Yes or no.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I would be calling Child Protect Services on your ass.
I suppose you think you have a right to stone your child.
Deu 21:18-21
If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
Also, what is all this sinning you do everyday? Are you sinning right at this moment? Can you list your sins committed yesterday? I just got to know what you think is a sin.
I can say I don't sin every second, weeks, months and years go by before I would say I sin. That is one horrible view of the world thinking everyone is sinning every day. Sounds like a plan to guilt people into behaving when they are already behaving.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
Thank you for your honesty concerning the question that has been before you for quite some time. You are right. It is beyond you and me to be able to determine to what extent the damage of sin is. Let's look at the two possibilities when it comes to eternal punishment.
1. There is no God - you have nothing to be upset about. People die and that is that.
2. There is a God - The Bible describes God as just and righteous. You and I, as you admitted, cannot possibly know the amount of damage a sin causes, but yet you believe you can know how long a person should pay for their sins (no one deserves eternity in hell). Those two statements are logically incoherent with one another. In a court of law, a jury attempts to assess damage before they determine punishment. You seem to think that even though you cannot possibly assess the damage of sin, you know the punishment. If God is who he says he is (and that is what I believe to be true), He knows both the damage and the amount of punishment. Who are you and I to say He is incorrect. We would be making that judgment based upon ignorance - as you finally admitted.
Do you really believe it is always wrong to harm people or torture them. Define harm or torture. We cannot even seem to do that as a country. Let's make it a bit simpler. Is it wrong to make people uncomfortable (that may be harming them) if they are at war with you and they have attempted to hurt your loved ones. Is it wrong to harm them? Do you simply allow someone to have their way and harm your family? Is it immoral for someone to harm another who is at war with you?
Tell me what it means to be essentially good. Would that be someone like you or me? I cannot speak to what you have done, but according to scripture, I have certainly messed up. I know I have stolen before. I have not treated my wife, kids, parents, friends, or siblings right all the time. (I have not even talked about what I have done to my enemies) I have lied. I have cheated. I have hurt (harmed) others. I have prejudices that I have enacted upon. That just scratches the surface when speaking to what I have done and I have yet to speak about the things I have thought. So, who is this "essentially good" person you are speaking of?
Lastly, you asked if I would incinerate someone.
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord (Romans 12:19). It seems clear that I am not the one to burn anyone. That decision belongs to the Lord. When it comes to eternal torment scripture states that God will be in charge of that issue. The book of Revelation makes it clear that God is the one who judges and enacts punishment in chapter 20. So, to answer your question, I will not be the one to enact judgment. It really is a trick question because as you stated before, it is beyond you or me.
1. If I answered "no" - It would be to acknowledge that someone is "essentially good." That is not what I believe and that is not what scripture states.
2. If I answered "yes" - It would contradict what you and I know to be true in the fact that neither of us could know if the punishment fits the crime. It is beyond us. I would not attempt to punish someone when I couldn’t assess the damages.
Essentially what you are attempting to do is somehow establish that man’s sense of "right and wrong" is more just than God's. But as you have stated before, how can that be if man does not know the extent of the damage of sin.
Let me give you an example. Let's create this fantasy that you are obsessed with. You know, this world where a person just commits one or two sins and they are "essentially good." Let’s say that this person is a man who has simply lied to a woman. That is all. It was simply a lie. Without any other knowledge, you would say, "He is not so bad. It is just a lie. I will simply punish him with a slap on the wrist. His punishment is a $50 fine." You admitted that you could not know the damage of the sin, so you simply based the punishment on ignorance.
Now, you are let in just a little bit of the damage of the lie. He actually lied to his wife. He had the AIDS virus and he told his new bride that he had never had sex before and therefore; he had no STD's. (Actually that would be two sins . . . sex outside of marriage) Well, because he lied, his new bride now has AIDS and what do you know, she got pregnant and the baby is HIV positive. The woman's life will be cut short. She will not be able to watch her child grow up. The child will never marry and have children, because she has the disease and she doesn't want to pass it on. For her entire life she will be using very powerful drugs in order to extend her life. All of those drugs have side-effects which she will have to deal with her entire life. The drugs will cost her thousands of dollars every year. Perhaps she deals with depression because of the stigma that comes with the disease. The family name will stop with the next generation. The child will never know the love of a spouse. The trust in the marriage is broken. Perhaps a divorce occurs . . . I could go on all day with this . . . all because of a lie. But you think, this guy is "essentially good" and because of your lack of knowledge concerning the damage of his sin, you have now just fined a guy $50 for all this damage he has done. You are right . . . that sounds like justice.
That is one reason you have to get rid of God in your mind. If He does exist, then he knows the extent of people’s sins and as you can see, even one lie can have enormous consequences AND His punishment will fit the crime. But of course, people do not have only one sin. You know you have treated people wrong. You know that you have harmed people and what you are hoping for is . . . no consequences. Because of your fear, you must get rid of God. The Bible speaks to this issue in Romans 1.
There is another way to deal with this fear that you have . . . simply believe and trust in Jesus Christ. That is the good news, the Gospel. Jesus died on the cross and paid the price for our sins, but you have to accept the gift. What will you do with that? Will you reject it or receive it? Again, you have all the information - just like Adam and Eve. What will you do?
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Part one:
So many words to make Pascal's Wager. What if we're both wrong and another religion (or a flavor of Christianity that isn't yours) is right?
Part two:
If vengeance is truly God's then wouldn't a human threatening someone with that vengeance be the sin of implication of Godhood?
After all, one would be assuming that they knew the mind of God in order to make that threat.
Part three:
The fear comes from the believers in God - not from the ones who don't believe. Why should I believe in your God to calm a fear I don't have?
Or is it your fear I'd be assuaging?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
You can call whoever you want . . . it is within the law and again, you have no authority what-so-ever. The child belongs to me, not to you. The amount of damage that has been done to society because of the lack of discipline is incalculable and yet you seem to be OK with that.
No, I do not have the right to stone my child. That is not within the law. You guys love quoting the OT, but you seem to forget the New Testament. I am not Jewish, I am Christian. I believe in the authority of the entire Bible. I understand that whereas there are principles in the OT that still apply today (moral law) . . . civil and ceremonial law does not. It is that distinction that you fail to grasp.
Romans 13:1-2 - Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
You fail to grasp even the one verse you quote. Read the entire verse. The father and mother must appeal to the governing authorities (the elders). It was upon that approval that the punishment could take place. So again, the punishment was made under the authority of those who ruled in the day. You might not be aware of this, but there are parents who appeal to the authorities to punish their children to a greater extent than we, as parents, are legally able to. . . AND JUDGES DO GRANT THIS AT TIMES.
By your screen name - It is implied that you are an ex-minister. If so, then you do not need me to list sins for you. You have the ability to look at scripture and see that for yourself. I never said that I sin every second. I sleep many hours each day . . . HA. I am no one to say how much or how little you sin. I simply know who I am - a sinner saved by the grace and mercy of God.
King Solomon wrote: “Who can say, ‘I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?’” (Proverbs 20:9).
8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10).
So ex-minister, you are either one of those who say, "you have no sin" and scripture tells us that the truth is not in you OR you know that you have sinned. You do not deny that you have sinned, you simply believe it is not very often. This is still a price to be paid for your sin. Either the price has been paid for by Jesus Christ, or you will have to pay the price for your sin. Again, if you are an ex-minister then you are aware of the Gospel and it appears you have chosen to reject it.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
That would depend on whether you followed Biblical edicts for punishment or just paddled his tail.
Spankings on the gluteals - no problem. Beating him with a rod across the back, legs and head or trying to stone him to death - there would be problems. Ex-minister wouldn't be the only one calling Child Services on you.
Oh, you're following the New Testament as a Christian - that means you are not following the God of the OT but another one you call Jesus Christ. If you were following the same God, would you be so quick to make the distinction?
Actually, our attitudes about sin are one of the things we have in common. Atheists aren't concerned about sin because we see no evidence that there is a God to offend. Christians aren't concerned about sin because you folk have a cloak of forgiveness that absolves you from sin as often as you ask for it and you aren't bound by the rules of God and man because of grace.
The difference seems to lie in that you can continue to do these things you call sin as often as you feel the need because all you have to do is ask forgiveness and be real sorry for what you did and promise to never do it again (until it becomes expedient). I and others like me have to deal with morals and how doing bad things to our fellow humans would be a dickish thing to do.
You claim to listen to your consciences but believe in a process designed to sear them shut. Strange, that.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
My point is most fundamentalist would love to get us back to Biblical times and why not? The Bible according to them is the inspired word of God, regardless of whether it is OT or NT. I am aware the NT is the new covenant but how do you pick and choose what Biblical laws are correct for today? Seems the Christian churches vary on it quite a bit.
Most fundamentalist disparage the morals of today and they want us to be a Christian nation, a theocracy. Given enough power, which they are showing a great deal of interest in, I believe they would implement capital punishment for such things as being gay or being promiscuous and case in point abortion doctors even though abortion is legal.
Many children have been abused by parents who think hitting a kid is appropriate. My daughter is a third grade teacher and she has seen horrible things done by parents. I guess you would prefer her to keep quiet because she is not their parent. Apparently, you feel it would be fine just to stand there and watch a kid getting a real beating because the parent is entitled to do so. I do volunteer work for abused children and I see the results of not sparing the rod and many have been from fundamentalist and Catholic homes. It really has been quite emotional for me at times to see the pain these little ones have suffered.
Yes, I used to be a fundamentalist minister. I now see how abusive it is to be taught that we are vile and how it builds inside a pressure cooker that will act out. It is self-fulfilling prophecy. Having an attitude that everyone is entirely evil is abusive. It also is perhaps the first marketing ploy. Telling everyone that they are evil and you have the snake oil to cure them.
I reject evil.
Romans 3:12-18
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
One other point. If you see a parent whipping their kids in public odds are they do worse at home. Anyway that is from my experience.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
This is very simple. If you dont want eternal life, then don't accept him as Lord and Savior. The important thing is no one is forcing you to become a believer. It only seems unfair to a person that does not want to be held accountable for their actions. If you dont want eternal life, then all you have to do is simply continue to live a life without Christ. This is just to easy.
The stick and the carrot. No one is forcing you to become a believer, but what a shit head you will be if you don't accept him now.
I thought you will have eternal life either way. One in heaven the other in hell. To that I submit for your approval this quote from the great mind of Alfred E. Newman
What, Me Worry?
There are only two things in life to worry about: whether you are well or you are sick.
If you are well, there's nothing to worry about.
If you are sick, there are to things to worry about: whether you get better or die.
If you get better, there's nothing to worry about.
If you die, there's two things to worry about: whether you go to heaven or hell.
If you go to heaven, there's nothing to worry about.
If you go to hell, you'll be so busy saying hello to your friends that you won't have time to worry.
How cool will it be to meet Mark Twain and John Lennon.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
Part one:
If we are both wrong - we are both wrong. I obviously do not believe that is the case. Well, neither you nor I can answer that question on this side of eternity. I have looked into other religions. I have looked into the history. I have studied theology. I have looked into NOT believing, but it simply did not work. Other religions, including atheism, do not answer the more interesting questions and Christianity does. Let me give you just one example: As I asked before, "Did Hitler receive justice for what he did?" If I were an atheists or materialist, the answer would most certainly be, "No." AND YET, there is something in me that wants justice (that most certainly resides in you as well based upon what you have written). Christianity resolves this issue, because God is just and righteous, but he is also full of grace, mercy, and love. He provides salvation (forgiveness) for those who accept his payment for the sins we have committed and he provides justice to those who do not seek forgiveness.
Others have used this description, but I still like to use it - I am a reluctant Christian. I have been a part of this website for over two years, and philosophically I have yet to hear one good argument to abandon my faith. I constantly read books about and against my faith, and I know why I believe what I believe.
Part two:
I want to be sure, that I am reading your question correctly.
It is wrong for me to take vengeance upon another because that belongs to God. So, when I am treated wrong (as we all have been at times) and then I act out against the person who has treated me wrong and take vengeance upon another - I have:
A: Taken what God says belongs to him
B. Inserted my judgment in the place of God.
If you are implying that it is wrong for a believer to warn others of the vengeance of God, then you are incorrect. That would be like asking if it is wrong for a believer to warn you if you are about to be hit by a car. Do believers assume they know the mind of God? Again, you must understand what believers believe. They believe in the God of the Bible. He is beyond comprehension. The Bible is the written word in which God communicates to mankind who He is, but not all of who he is. If I tell my children, "If you run through the house you will be punished." I expect all my children to abide by the rule. I would even expect my oldest to remind my youngest of the rule. He does not have the authority to punish the youngest, but he knows/understands my thoughts and my actions on the issue of running in the house. It does not mean that he fully knows me.
I know of no one, who is a believer, who would state that they know ALL about God. I do not even know ALL about my wife. I do not know the deep things in her mind. What I do know about her is what she has chosen to share. The same is true concerning God. God has told us (shared with us) how he has dealt with sin. He has also shared with us that there is only one way to be forgiven and that without Jesus Christ, one will pay for their sin through eternal separation in hell. So, it is not presumptuous to state - this is how God will deal with believers and how he will deal with unbelievers any more than it is presumptuous for my son to state this is how my father will deal with his children who run through the house.
I hope you are not asking this – “Is it wrong for believers to threaten hell?” No believer can threaten hell. We do not control it. That is like me threatening you with a nuclear bomb. It is not mine to control. I do not have access to one. What is the point?
Part three:
If it (hell) is a fear that you do not have, then why are you worried about the person who will burn in hell forever. Sigmund Freud once wrote: "To fully live, one must resolve the problem of death. When left unresolved, one spends excessive energy denying it or becoming obsessed with it.” If you really do not believe in heaven or hell - then that is what you believe, but I think we have demonstrated that it is not possible for you to assert that the Christian God is unjust or wrong in how He punishes those who do not believe and seek his forgiveness. That assertion is based upon ignorance.
Your last statement is most interesting. The only way a human could calm the fear of hell, is to get rid of God. Just like Freud stated, which is what you attempt to do. But now you have created a sense of injustice. People treat other people horrible, and yet; many go unpunished. So, perhaps you have no fear of death, but how frustrating is it that you see all of these injustices all over the world, and yet; people never have to answer for what they have done. I am sure there are people who have cheated you in this lifetime, and yet where is justice? Why were they allowed to mistreat you and never have to pay for it?
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Interesting - how hard did you look at other religions? Did you read their sacred texts or stop with "My pastor told me they's bad"? How many theologies did you study? I strongly suspect that it was around one. Did you study history from the viewpoint of other religions/cultures or just the white christian one?
As for the implication of Godhead - the point is that you are warning people of what the writers of the Bible said God would do as though they and you know the mind of God (whether they do or not is another matter). They claim it. And yes, God has told us how he has dealt with sin - hypocritically. He needed it, he created it. He put it into his creation and withheld critical information from the humans he allegedly made so they could be tainted by it. He created a pseudo-sacrifice and essentially blackmails people into accepting that they have to kiss up to him for eternity (otherwise it won't take).
For the fear - I didn't need to calm the fear. I simply didn't create it. Once I understood that the religion was based on guilt, blackmail and destroying one's self worth, I realized that I didn't need to make the fear to keep me down. For the sense of justice, I realized early on that it doesn't exist. Yes people have cheated me. As they were good Christians, they asked their God for forgiveness and it didn't matter anymore. Some of them apologized to me - most didn't. I forgave the ones that apologized and the ones that didn't because vengeance is a terrible thing to hold in one's mind.
Then they did it to me again. Being good Christians, I'm sure they got the forgiveness they asked for. then they found someone else to screw over because I no longer deal with them.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
It gives you comfort. Wishful thinking however will not make it true.
Not sounding too reluctant to me. Maybe that was then. It certainly helps to be born in a Christian home and country. It feels just like home. Converting to Buddhism, Islam or any other religion would simply be foreign. I wonder if you had been born in another country whether you would have found that home religion right for you instead of Christianity. Statistically the odds are extremely high.
Sigmund Freud certainly had his hang-ups. I think he was talking of himself. He had a disturbing childhood, wishing his brother dead and then he died. He had odd interests like witchcraft and the occult. Yeah, he was totally talking about himself. I have on the other hand not spent that much energy since I put guilt-ridden fundamentalism behind me. It was quite a load to carry.
I agree with jcgadfly. Christianity promotes fear. It is not naturally in a child. An infant is trusting. As the fundamentalist preach they will put the fear of God in them. All children are born atheist. They don't know of Jesus. They have to be taught it. That is quite telling to me. Life should teach that naturally. If there is such a perfect and loving God that would be the least he could do.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
It wasn't a trick question. I was just trying to establish the measure of the goodness in your heart. The fact you gave this as an answer is a sad indictment. I really hoped you'd say no. See, everyone - I am right when I say the christians aren't human. One day their good samaritan masks will fall off and we'll finally understand that it was about them all along.
Oh - and don't quote revelations at me like it's an authority.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Did he choose to turn his back on Jesus? First of all, we have to understand the Trinity. Jesus is actually God. When it is said that Jesus is God, it isn't saying that Jesus is actually the Father. What it is saying is that Jesus, The Father, and the Holy Spirit has the same divine nature. All three are equally God. God is a title that all three share. They all have divine attributes. Now even tho Jesus is God, he willfully came on earth to die for our sins. On earth, Jesus was a man. He was human. He felt pain just like you and I. He got hungry, he got tired, he got thirsty. Since he died for our sins, the Father had to temporarly seperate himself from the Son so the mission was complete. So when Jesus asked "Why have you forsaken me", the question was from a man that was in pain and agony. He knew why his Father had forsaken him, but under so much duress, he asked the question. Sometimes if you people actually think about some of these things you will be able to come up with an answer, instead of being so critical and spiteful about every single little thing.
So you're a polytheist?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
No, because i dont believe in three different gods. I believe in three different persons sharing the same divine nature, which is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
It's like having our own little Chick Tract!
Truly, the only purpose of keeping him around is to use as an example of what happens to a person when they buy into fundamentalism.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Please kill me now so I never have to read senseless shit like this ever again. I know we should be polite to theists. They are so fluffy, with their tunnel minds, their pleated slacks and those 1970s shoes. But is it really on the basis of patently ridiculous crap like this that they have seized the moral high ground and trademarked the bestest parts of human nature and called them all their own?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
But they're all fully God, right? It's not 1/3 God for the father, 1/3 God for the son and 1/3 God for the spirit?
They all claim the title God equally->they are all gods->you're a polytheist.
Just like other trinitarians, you don't like to admit it.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
That is not so. I would only be a polytheist if i believed in three DIFFERENT gods. But since the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the SAME God, then I am still a monotheist. The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the same God, just three persons that are worthy of that same title (or nature). The concept of the Trinity is a well understood concept and it is also understood that Trinitarians are not poloytheists.
No, it is senseless to believe that the universe is either eternal, or that it popped into being uncaused out of nothing. That is what is fluffy and senseless, and even ridiculous. Until you are able to come up with a reasonable argument against theism, then you simply have to withold judgment.
Only if you substituted the writings of the 4th century church fathers for the Bible (or you believe black and white are the same color).
How do you harmonize the kill-crazy God of the OT with the "love God and love each other" Jesus of the Gospels?
If you want to worship Jesus and Yahweh together - more power to you. Just don't delude yourself into thinking you're a monotheist while worshipping two opposing being.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
So you're not a Christian? Creation ex nihilo (universe popped here out of nothing) is a founding tenet of Christian belief.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Yeah REALLY jcgadfly everyone knows that 1+1+1=1.
And Jesus really didn't mean his father had forsaken him because Jesus being God was everywhere. Not only was he on the cross, he was sitting up in heaven at the same time. It is like the current season of Lost. Jesus had all the knowledge of God being God so his suffering act was out there for us to feel bad for him. Jesus had a bad weekend to forgive us our sins.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
No it is the "founding tenent of Christian belief" that God created the universe out of nothing, which i find to be more reasonable to believe than the universe just popping into being UNCAUSED out of nothing, like atheist must believe.
I find this funny, because according to the bible, Jesus himself believed in the same "kill-crazy God of the OT" that you are referring to, despite his message of "love God and love each other" of the NT. So if Jesus found nothing internally wrong with the God of the OT, then why should we?? Your post is self refuting.
Universe popping out of nothing or existing forever outside of time=Stupid
God popping out of nothing or existing forever outside of time=Brilliant
Truly, your argument is without flaw.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Please note that the only proof we have of the "love God and one another" message was put into the character's mouth long after his supposed existence so we have no clue that he actually said those things. the Jesus you're worshipping was likely the whole cloth creation of the gospel writers and only has a loose connection to an actual person.
Also, If Jesus was God (as you claim) why was he indulging in self-worship? The Bible is full of times where he prayed to himself.
For that matter, why did he have to believe in himself as a separate person? Most would call that schizophrenic.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Well its fine to just take one phrase and say gospel writes deceptively put the words in Jesus mouth. But you are missing the fact that Jesus often quoted OT scriptures, and he identified the God of the OT as his father, and this is consistent throughout the whole NT.
Why did he indulge in self-worship?? Geez, you sound like some of my Jehovah Witness friends lol. To answer that question, i will point you in the direction of Phil 2:5-9, which states
Philippians 2:5-9 (New International Version)
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name
In verse 6 it states that Jesus was by nature God, but in order to come on earth and die for our sins, he had to "7 make himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in humanlikeness"
As a man, Jesus was made subject to the Father. He had to place aside his "Godship" so that he can die for our sins. So he was not praying to himself, but he was praying to the Father. It was only after he willfully lowered his position that he could do such. He lowered his position, put aside his Godship, and became subject to the Father, as the Son of the Father. Scripture harmonizes with scripture.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Again with the double standard. If I were to make statements saying that most atheists would love _______________, you would ask for my source.
Where is the survey that states that most fundamentalist want a theocracy or want us to return to biblical times. You have absolutely no research to back that statement. For someone who was supposed to be a fundamentalist minister, you certainly do not have a clue what the Bible says. Didn’t the crowds attempt to make Jesus king or crown him as their leader? Was it their choice or his? So if God does exist, you would suggest that man can force him to rule as king? The very fact that he is GOD would suggest that he would dictate when there was and wasn’t a theocracy. Even in the OT, when the people wanted a king, God allowed it, but no people group could force him to do anything.
What is amazing is that you accuse Christians of fear-mongering, and yet; read what you have written. Show me this massive movement that desires to kill homosexuals or abortion doctors.
Is there a conservative movement happening? Absolutely, but it is not an anti-abortion movement or an anti-gay movement. The most recent election of a republican, Scott Brown was because of anti-government, fiscally-conservative movement. Scott Brown is a PRO-CHOICE republican.
Are you aware that there are atheists that believe theists should be separated from their families and committed to mental institutions? They believe that I should be charged with child abuse because I teach my faith to my children (you acuse me of abuse in your post). Instead of me having the right to teach my kids my beliefs, they believe it would be better for my children to become wards of the state while my wife and I are separated from them and from each other in mental institutions. Perhaps you would want that ex-min. Perhaps others on this atheist site would support that agenda. Should Christians be fearful of that movement or belief.
You know, as a Christian there is no doubt that my worldview is quite different than an atheist, but what is most frustrating is that you have taken a statement such as "spanking a child" and then come to the conclusion that I support or encourage child abuse. I have indicated nothing of the sort. Go back and read. I stated that I have the authority to spank my child because it is within the law. Is child abuse within the law? I never stated that anyone should watch a child "take a beating" and not get involved.
Your only goal is to bash theism. You stated that you have seen the damage of people who do not spare the rod and immediately you refer to MANY religious people as the source of that pain. The majority (61%) of child abuse has nothing to do with “the rod.," it is neglect. That means that 61% of child abuse is educational neglect, physical neglect, and emotional neglect. When it comes to child abuse “by the rod” only accounts for 26% of child abuse cases. And while we are at it, are you defining child abuse by the law, or simply your opinion. Some say to raise your voice against a child is verbal abuse. Have you ever raised your voice against your 3rd grader? If so, are you now an abusive father? Just as a spanking is within the law so is raising your voice or yelling at your child. Both could be taken to the extreme. You could verbally “beat” your child down. But that is not what I was suggesting and you know it.
Almost everything you have written is your perspective and not reality. Do just a hint of research and you will find that child abuse occurs everywhere? Theists, atheists, rich, poor, black, white, and every country deals with this. I wonder why???? Actually I know why. Because all of mankind is sinful. Ex-min., there is no sin that is exclusive to one group. You name the sin, and there are Christians and atheists who have committed them. Scripture could not be clearer about that point.
What I find amazing is that you are so ready to point the finger at Christians when it comes to abuse, and yet, this place that you volunteer . . . is it made up of tender hearted atheists? Because statistically 17 out of every 20 workers that volunteer at the place that you volunteer are theists.
Let’s deal with your last few statements. You reject evil??? You may reject it, but your reality simply does not support it. What do you think happened to those children you are working with? Abusing people is a result of sin. So you can reject evil all you want, but you will have to reject it as you look into the faces of its victims.
Is preaching God’s word which clearly states that people are sinful, their hearts are full of darkness, and they hate the light . . . is that self-fulfilling prophecy? What you are essentially proposing is that people are basically good, and the reason they act bad is that they are told that they are bad. The real world doesn’t seem to uphold your opinion. I wonder Ex-min, how much time you have spent with your 3rd grader teaching her to disobey, lie, or be selfish? I wonder, did she do those things because you told her she was bad? If you did, by your definition, you are an abusive father. If you did not, why did she act badly? Why is it that we must teach our children to share, obey their parents, and to tell the truth? Just the universality of sin speaks directly against what you propose. Evil crosses all lines. Children raised in the slums and children raised in the finest neighborhoods all sin.
Think back to the day when your 3rd grader rebelled against you. Was it because you had been telling her that she was bad? Come on ex-min, didn't you care for her, provide for her, clean up after her, rock her to sleep, gently wake her in the morning, take her on walks, feed her, hug her, kiss her . . . Didn't you do all positive things for your third grader and then . . . she disobeyed you or got angry with you, or didn't like your rule. Perhaps the first time you had another kid over at the house and the kids were surrounded by toys and yet she was selfish. Did you show her how to hit or bite another child? Did you spend a bunch of time teaching her those sinful actions? Did you put on video's where puppets taught her the vices of lying and cheating? Perhaps you think that she just acted like that because she was ignorant. So, once you taught her the difference between selfishness and self-denial she has never been selfish again. OR PERHAPS, she didn't know what a lie was and after you reafirmed her that she was a good person, you showed her the difference between a lie and the truth and from that time onward . . . she never lied again. That's great Ex-min. You really should write a book on the subject of parenting. Reality simply does not line up with your opinion.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
What would it matter if I listed all of the books that I read, would you then acknowledge that I came to a logical conclusion? How much time did you spend studying Christian theology (I am not talking about going to church) in order to come to your "conclusion" that it was not true?
By your second statement - I can see that you spent very little time studying Christianity. Christians do not believe that writers wrote about their view of God, but rather God wrote through them. If I told my son to write about me, and he simply wrote the words down on a piece of paper. My son did not write his thoughts about me, my son wrote my thoughts about me.
You need to read more of this thread before you post. God did not create sin (already been covered). God knew that man would sin (Already been covered). What was the critical information that he withheld from the humans? (Already been covered). God blackmails people . . . hmmmm. So, when I tell my children, "Obey me or you will get in trouble", I am blackmailing them. Interesting. Or perhaps you mean, Trust in me and I will save you or you will spend eternity in hell - So, if someone is hanging over a cliff, and I say, "Let me save you or you will plumit to your death," that is a blackmail. Even more interesting. I think you might want to define blackmail. If you are suggesting - God extorts something from you so that God doesn't punish you, then you might want to think a little deeper on that subject.
1. As an atheists - you don't believe in God therefore, you simply arrived because your parents had sex, there is no justice - so you have nothing to answer for concerning the wrongs you have done, and there is no punishment anyway.
2. As a theist - I believe in God. God is the one who grants all life. He grants to you the very breath that you breathe. He puts rules (laws) in place that describe his character AND makes life better for you. AND WHAT DO YOU DO . . . you hate him. There is a price to be paid for your rebellion and justice will be done (He is a just God), but he is still willing to save you. Hard for me to find blackmail in that reality.
If justice doesn't exist - then why do you have a sense of it. If there is no standard of justice, then why would you state that people were unjust. Of course, it was the Christians who have been unjust to you. You guys are all the same. Ex-min wants to say that many of the Christians were the abusers and you have to proclaim that it was the Christians that screwed you and others. As I stated before, there is no exclusivity in sin. I notice none of you guys claim that you have been the one to wrong people . . . Oh yeah, would that fall under "destroy one's self-worth." So, let me get this straight. It is OK for you to destroy another person's self-worth, but you should not be critical of your own life?
If justice does not exist, then why is it that you guys attempt to paint Christians as the most unjust. It is almost too funny that you would proclaim that justice does not exist, and yet; you proclaim to know what is just or unjust. If there is no justice, there is no standard, then all is relative, and therefore; those "Christian's" were just in their minds, and since your view of justice and their view of justice cannot be measured by a standard since it doesn't exist, they could not have been unjust. Why is your standard of justice right, if justice does not exist?
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
What a bunch of bullshit. Atheists have no sense of justice? No morals? Right and wrong have nothing whatever to do with god. They are human qualities and we own them as much as you do. You have trademarked them.
Oh great - now it's ok for us to destroy other people's self worth all of a sudden, is it, you pompous twat.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck