Jesus died for my sins, without my permission?

zoinbergs
Posts: 6
Joined: 2008-07-25
User is offlineOffline
Jesus died for my sins, without my permission?

Hi guys!  I've been a lurker on here for quite some time now.  Gotta love the intelligence this forum has to offer!  Today I have a question that I cannot already find an answer to though.  Perhaps someone can help me?  Thanks so much if you can!

Okay, so I've been slowly forming this thought, and I was wondering if my logic is correct..

I am having a very difficult time accepting Jesus Christ as any sort of savior to me simply because his followers make this claim that he "died for my sins" -- but before I was ever given the opportunity to let (or not let) him do so.

I mean, what if I didn't want eternal life?  What if I didn't want someone supposedly dieing for my sins?  (Assuming someone could even do such a thing in the first place.)

Where is my freedom of choice in all of this?

Of course we know what supposedly happens if I don't accept Jesus as my savior -- I go to hell, or at least not get into heaven.  I'm more concerned about the fact that I was born AFTER Jesus apparently died for my sins though.

It just seems so unfair!  Can someone help me with this?


zoinbergs
Posts: 6
Joined: 2008-07-25
User is offlineOffline
The more I think about this,

The more I think about this, the more confused I become!  Going deeper if nobody minds..

Do Christians believe there is a difference between eternal life spent in the absence of god, and eternal life spent in hell?

I'm now wondering if the *gift* of eternal life spent in the presence of god (through the death of his son of course) is really considered a gift -- with no strings attached -- if and only if the alternative is simply eternal life spent in the absence of god, as opposed to eternal damnation.  (For the sake of argument, I'm assuming we even live on after we die.)

But if that's the case, why does a bloody sacrifice still need to take place in order for me to spend eternal life in the presence of god?

I mean, why can't god just forgive me of my sins himself?  Why can't I just accept god himself as my savior?  Why did he feel it was necessary to send his son to do his dirty work for him?

Jesus now seems like an unnecessary middle man to me.  And I'm not a fan of middle men being unnecessarily created just so they can be sacrificed.

Maybe that's where I see the lapse in logic?  Not so much in regards to permission, but more of necessity?

 

Maybe it'd be easier to look at it from another angle.

Let's see, if I choose not to accept Jesus as my savior, I am not necessarily punished with eternal damnation, I just don't get to live in the presence of god.

However, if I choose to accept Jesus as my savior, I have to be willing to accept (and be happy) that Jesus (well god, since they are technically one in the same, right?) chose to kill himself for me.

Eww, I don't ever want to be compelled to be happy that someone chose to kill themselves -- especially if accepting so is the only way I can be with my creator!


Awelton85
Superfan
Awelton85's picture
Posts: 143
Joined: 2009-01-03
User is offlineOffline
Religion is filled with

Religion is filled with nonsense just like this. Keep digging, you will find more holes.

If you turn off the part of you that has heard bible stories all your life, it's easy to spot the bullshit.

"So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence." - Bertrand Russell

Stewie: Yay and God said to Abraham, "you will kill your son, Issak", and Abraham said, I can't hear you, you'll have to speak into the microphone." "Oh I'm sorry, Is this better? Check, check, check... Jerry, pull the high end out, I'm still getting some hiss back here."


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
OK, you are beginning

OK, you are beginning to see the contradictions inherent in Christianity. Even so, allow me to spell out the basic idea from your first post.

 

OK, god loves you and wants you to be with him. To that end, he gave you free will so that if you got it wrong, he could dip you in boiling oil for eternity or something like that. Heck, he could have made you with no free will but then you would be automatically with him at the end and you would not have chosen to be with him.

 

Anyway, let's assume that you decide to play on his team. When you die, free will no longer exists. You are going to go shooting up into the sky because you are such a really great guy. Also, it is my understanding that your pecker will fall off in the process but you will not care about that because you are going to be hanging with the other people who don't mind that their peckers fell off too. Basically, you get to join the “no pecker club for men”.

 

Anyway, when you are in heaven, do you have free will? On the one hand, you can't possibly have free will because you have no choice but to hang out with god telling him just how really cool he is.

 

[indent]Really, if god is that narcissistic, couldn't he just surround himself with mirrors or something?[/indent]

 

On the other hand, you must have free will because god knows just how depraved you are and he had to take your pecker away from you or you would fuck everything in heaven. And I do not mean everything in the metaphorical sense. Really, eternity is forever. How long would it take to fuck everything in heaven? A few thousand years?

 

Apparently, that is why you have free will, so that you can choose to swim in boiling oil or have your pecker taken away from you. As far as the whole crucifixion thing goes, since that must have happened part way through god's plan, that must be because god realized that people did not understand the nature of the choice. It is binary, either A or B. It is not a continuum when you get to decide just how much of your pecker god cuts off.

 

I guess that people must have formed some weird idea about that one. Like if you are really super good, god cuts off the whole thing. However, if you were only halfway good, he would cut off half of it. I suppose that if you were a depraved psycho serial killer, you would get to keep mostly the whole thing.

 

Then too, we know for a fact that god hates dicks. After all, his chosen people have to start the process for him by cutting off the first few millimeters themselves. Yet he gave us dicks and commanded us to use them. At least that would be what I get from the whole “be fruitful and multiply” thing.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13597
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
zoinbergs wrote:Hi guys! 

zoinbergs wrote:

Hi guys!  I've been a lurker on here for quite some time now.  Gotta love the intelligence this forum has to offer!  Today I have a question that I cannot already find an answer to though.  Perhaps someone can help me?  Thanks so much if you can!

Okay, so I've been slowly forming this thought, and I was wondering if my logic is correct..

I am having a very difficult time accepting Jesus Christ as any sort of savior to me simply because his followers make this claim that he "died for my sins" -- but before I was ever given the opportunity to let (or not let) him do so.

I mean, what if I didn't want eternal life?  What if I didn't want someone supposedly dieing for my sins?  (Assuming someone could even do such a thing in the first place.)

Where is my freedom of choice in all of this?

Of course we know what supposedly happens if I don't accept Jesus as my savior -- I go to hell, or at least not get into heaven.  I'm more concerned about the fact that I was born AFTER Jesus apparently died for my sins though.

It just seems so unfair!  Can someone help me with this?

Rational people don't have to wrap their head around their gobbledy goo. They also claim that daddy/himself magically knocked up a virgin without two sets of DNA or sperm. They also claim that Jesus magically survived rigor mortis.

This is a horrible story. This is how stalkers behaive. They follow someone and threaten to kill themselves to prove their love for you. Sick and insecure.

The bible, much less Jesus, is about submission, not consent, so of course you had no choice.  I'd suggest you get a bucket of popcorn and enjoy the backpeddling to follow this post. The Christian responses will be nothing but trying to mentally fit a square peg into a round hole.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


zoinbergs
Posts: 6
Joined: 2008-07-25
User is offlineOffline
So what is free will,

So what is free will, anyways?  Could someone point me to a well established definition?

After thinking about it, free will seems like an illusion.  Like, one person's free will entirely depends on the willingness of everyone else to sacrafice or at least bend their free will.

Does that make any sense?

I'm also starting to think that if free will actually does exist, and that it was indeed given to us..  that nobody could take it away from us.  I don't quite know how to explain this yet, but it seems like a one way street?  I dunno..


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3706
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
Hi, welcome to the forum.

Hi, welcome to the forum. Glad to have you with us.

zoinbergs wrote:
I mean, what if I didn't want eternal life? What if I didn't want someone supposedly dieing for my sins?

I think a typical Christian response would be that you already had eternal life, and you already deserved hell. By sacrificing his son, God gave you the freedom to choose. In other words, you are, by default, going to hell, and he can save you from that. As Nonstampcollector noted in one of his videos, it’s not a threat or a fear tactic, but rather, positive reinforcement.

zoinbergs wrote:
Do Christians believe there is a difference between eternal life spent in the absence of god, and eternal life spent in hell?

Some believe that you will literally be tortured by fire and demons in hell, gnashing your teeth. Some believe that hell is simply separation from God. Most of the latter group would add that knowing that God exists and being shunned from his presence would be torturous, i.e. separation from God will be so difficult to bear that it will seem like torture.

zoinbergs wrote:
I mean, why can't god just forgive me of my sins himself?  Why can't I just accept god himself as my savior?  Why did he feel it was necessary to send his son to do his dirty work for him?

Despite Christians’ insistence that God is infinitely merciful, he seems to be bound by an extremely childish system of absolute justice. If someone commits a crime, someone must be punished; even if the person that’s punished isn’t the person that committed the crime, this, somehow, puts everything back in order.

National Treasure                  

Nicholas Cage - I'd really love not to go to prison. I can't even begin to describe how much I would love not to go to prison.
Harvey Keitel - Someone's got to go to prison, Ben.

zoinbergs wrote:
After thinking about it, free will seems like an illusion.  Like, one person's free will entirely depends on the willingness of everyone else to sacrafice or at least bend their free will.

Try these articles. They should help.

Hamby

DG

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13597
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Even if one were to go by

Even if one were to go by Jefferson's view that God started everything then stepped asside, which is a backpeddle from the vengeful god concept, it is absurd in any case to claim that an imaterial super brain with no body floats amongst the stars.

But, when humans insist that such a being, not only exists, but meddles in our lives, sickens me to think that our only goal in life is to kiss it's ass and as a result humans are willing to needlessly die in defense of such absurdity.

The God of Abraham is has been the most distructive and divisive concept to humans and human dignity.

In general as well, even without a specific club name or religious label, to concoct a super hero in the sky stifles discovery and learning and replaces it with an ignorant gap answer.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


zoinbergs
Posts: 6
Joined: 2008-07-25
User is offlineOffline
Thank you so much

Thank you so much butterbattles --  for those articles on free will are absolutely fantastic!  I've been looking all over for information just like that.

Okay, so lately I've been pondering the other half of this Jesus problem -- sin.  I think I found another problem with the Christian viewpoint that claims we are all born sinners that need to be forgiven.  If you guys would kindly let me know what you think, it'd be greatly appreciated!

----------

According to Christian theology (please anyone correct me if I am wrong) God created Adam and Eve, and placed them in the Garden of Eden.  God then created the Tree of Knowledge, or as some may call it the Tree of Good and Evil.  He also created The Tree Of Life.  God then told Adam and Eve that they could eat the fruit from any tree they wanted, except for from the Tree of Good and Evil.  Then a serpent comes along and tempts Eve into eating from the Tree of Good and Evil, thereby angering God.  This is considered the original sin, right?  Apparently we are all born sinners because of this originally committed sin.

Here's where I get confused though.  How can God punish Eve for eating from the Tree of Good and Evil, if before she did so, she had absolutely no knowledge of good and evil!  I mean, how could she know that God was 'good' and that God's instructions were indeed 'good' as well?  And how could she know that the serpent who had tempted her was 'bad' either?  It seems unfair to me that God would punish mankind for doing something considered "wrong" when we didn't even know it was wrong to do such a thing in the first place.

It just doesn't make any sense to me.  What do you guys think?

Oh, and now that I think about it, how can sin be inherited too?  That concept doesn't make any sense to me either. =/


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
Yah, that is the basic

Yah, that is the basic story. And I would agree with you on the whole good/evil thing. However, I have an additional problem with the story.

 

Let's say that god is all powerful and can do what he wants. And he doesn't want up to eat from that one tree. Wouldn't his power extend to, say, not making the tree in the first place? If that was not an option, then god can't be all powerful. Ditto to the walking talking snake from hell.

 

Even if he had to make those two things, couldn't he have put the tree somewhere inaccessible such as a mountain top and put the walking talking snake from hell on the far side of the dessert? No, god put the snake and the tree right where we could get to them on day 7.

 

Getting back to evil, no Eve would not have known about that at first. However, god must have in order to make the tree. So here is god doing all of this shit just to make Eve take a bite. Sort of like a prankster who puts an empty wallet on the sidewalk to see who picks it up. It must have been part of the plan all along and therefore eating the applpe could not have been a sin because that was what god wanted to happen.

 

At least that must be the case as far as I am willing to ponder it.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


zoinbergs
Posts: 6
Joined: 2008-07-25
User is offlineOffline
Hmmm!  I just realized

Hmmm!  I just realized another problem.

If this Judeo-Christian God is omnipotent as most consider him to be, couldn't he have simply made a perfect (sinless) man AND ALSO have given him free will?

Why must we pit these two against each other?  Sure, they seem mutually exclusive, but it's GOD we're talking about here!  He can do anything, right?

If God is omnipotent, could he make a round square?


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3706
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
zoinbergs wrote:Thank you so

zoinbergs wrote:
Thank you so much butterbattles --  for those articles on free will are absolutely fantastic!  I've been looking all over for information just like that.

No problem.

zoinbergs wrote:

Here's where I get confused though.  How can God punish Eve for eating from the Tree of Good and Evil, if before she did so, she had absolutely no knowledge of good and evil!  I mean, how could she know that God was 'good' and that God's instructions were indeed 'good' as well?  And how could she know that the serpent who had tempted her was 'bad' either?  It seems unfair to me that God would punish mankind for doing something considered "wrong" when we didn't even know it was wrong to do such a thing in the first place.

It just doesn't make any sense to me.  What do you guys think?

Someone on RRS already wrote about this too.

Todangst

Also, one of my biggest criticisms of the Eden story concerns God’s punishment for the serpent. If you recall:

“So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.”” Genesis 3:14

The scientifically illiterate writer(s) of the Bible seem to sympathize with the snake, but I can’t tell for my life how this is supposed to be a bad thing. Snakes’ bodies are expertly equipped for crawling, and they are well adapted to their environments (and they don’t eat dust). Besides, I doubt any snake ever thinks, ‘Oh, woe is me, I have no legs.’ This person’s reasoning seems to be, that as a human, he wouldn’t enjoy crawling on his belly all the time; therefore, other creatures probably wouldn’t enjoy it either. Brilliant, huh?

Quote:
Oh, and now that I think about it, how can sin be inherited too?  That concept doesn't make any sense to me either. =/

You’re born guilty because your ancestors sinned? It doesn’t make any sense to me either.

Quote:
If this Judeo-Christian God is omnipotent as most consider him to be, couldn't he have simply made a perfect (sinless) man AND ALSO have given him free will?

Why must we pit these two against each other?  Sure, they seem mutually exclusive, but it's GOD we're talking about here!  He can do anything, right?

If God is omnipotent, could he make a round square?

It has been my experience that if you push Christians on these points, you’ll discover that God isn’t *really* omnipotent. You’ll even occasionally hear something like, “Because God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, etc., there are certain things that he can’t do (haha).” The general consensus seems to be:

1) You can’t pit God’s power against himself. Asking if he can ‘make a hamburger so big that even he can’t eat it’ is not allowed. I’m not sure why; that’s just one of his characteristics or something.

2) God can’t defy logic, implying that the laws of logic transcend this universe and are more powerful than God. Or, maybe logic is part of God. This is potentially problematic for the theist, but based on what a philosophy professor told me, the alternative, that God doesn’t conform to logic, is much worse. 

I still can’t quite figure this stuff out.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


zipkirk1966
Posts: 2
Joined: 2009-07-19
User is offlineOffline
Hey all!I too am new here,

Hey all!

I too am new here, love this site even thou I'm a pagan I agree with you guys! Ok here is one that I thought about....In the NT Jesus dies for our sins but there is a problem...in the OT there is the flood now you ask what does that have to do with the story of the death of jesus I will tell you, why did god in the OT flood the earth to do what??? get rid of SIN, get a small group of people to populate the earth and start all over again so why is jesus dieing for our sins if god got rid of it????? It seems the writers of the NT really didn't read or understand the OT go figure.

My gods can beat up your god!


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13597
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Right now the thought of any

Right now the thought of any super natural being claimed by the believer is vile to me.

Tomorrow I will have to put to sleep my mom's dog.

Anyone who wants to try to explain her artheritus as part of "god's plan" CAN GO FUCK THEMSELVES!

"Test" to me? WHAT THE FUCK DID THE DOG DO? What did she do except be loyal and friendly to me and to everyone?

NATURE explains why, not some pathetic comic book super hero. Her joints are bad and the medicine given to her is only doing so much and has also elivated her liver levels.

IF such a being were real, for argument's sake only, I would kick such a being in the nuts for even allowing such an afliction to happen to such a loving animal!

It's bad enough my mother is losing her best friend and a dog I love just as much. But to postulate a dead beat super friend in the sky who could do something, is a absurd and sickening thought and cheapens her life.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
zipkirk1966 wrote:Hey all!I

zipkirk1966 wrote:

Hey all!

I too am new here, love this site even thou I'm a pagan I agree with you guys! Ok here is one that I thought about....In the NT Jesus dies for our sins but there is a problem...in the OT there is the flood now you ask what does that have to do with the story of the death of jesus I will tell you, why did god in the OT flood the earth to do what??? get rid of SIN, get a small group of people to populate the earth and start all over again so why is jesus dieing for our sins if god got rid of it????? It seems the writers of the NT really didn't read or understand the OT go figure.

Welcome to the forums.

I see your point regarding the Flood, however it does not indicate the god was eradicating sin, only the evil, wickedness and violence in Genesis 6-8.

Another thought however, in Genesis 8:21, the god says, "..neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done." And to further define so that he might have a future option to eradicate, in v 22, "While the earth remaineth...."

One can argue that the god will not destroy the earth or that it will eventually end, but the god won't be the one to kill off all life ever again. So what does this do to the fantasy hallucination in Revelation? It would seem to follow that Revelation is bunk or that the god is again being  tricksy as he has been shown to be throughout his documented book of myths.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


zipkirk1966
Posts: 2
Joined: 2009-07-19
User is offlineOffline
pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

zipkirk1966 wrote:

Hey all!

I too am new here, love this site even thou I'm a pagan I agree with you guys! Ok here is one that I thought about....In the NT Jesus dies for our sins but there is a problem...in the OT there is the flood now you ask what does that have to do with the story of the death of jesus I will tell you, why did god in the OT flood the earth to do what??? get rid of SIN, get a small group of people to populate the earth and start all over again so why is jesus dieing for our sins if god got rid of it????? It seems the writers of the NT really didn't read or understand the OT go figure.

Welcome to the forums.

I see your point regarding the Flood, however it does not indicate the god was eradicating sin, only the evil, wickedness and violence in Genesis 6-8.

Another thought however, in Genesis 8:21, the god says, "..neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done." And to further define so that he might have a future option to eradicate, in v 22, "While the earth remaineth...."

One can argue that the god will not destroy the earth or that it will eventually end, but the god won't be the one to kill off all life ever again. So what does this do to the fantasy hallucination in Revelation? It would seem to follow that Revelation is bunk or that the god is again being  tricksy as he has been shown to be throughout his documented book of myths.

 

  Evil, wickedness and violence is part of sin so if he got rid of those he got rid of sin that WAS his plan got noah to start all over again without sin so there is NO reason for jesus to die for our sins. Ya why in the OT god makes a promise that he will not destroy the earth but in Revelations this earth is toast LOL well that part of the NT is all about us only us can destroy us humans if that makes any sence lol but the bible has never made any sence to me and never will.

My gods can beat up your god!


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3706
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Another thought however, in Genesis 8:21, the god says, "..neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done." And to further define so that he might have a future option to eradicate, in v 22, "While the earth remaineth...."

To be fair, in Genesis 9:11, God also says, "I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the Earth." So, maybe he can still destroy us in other ways? Although, it seems rather pointless what method he uses... 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
zipkirk1966 wrote: Evil,

zipkirk1966 wrote:

 Evil, wickedness and violence is part of sin so if he got rid of those he got rid of sin that WAS his plan got noah to start all over again without sin so there is NO reason for jesus to die for our sins. Ya why in the OT god makes a promise that he will not destroy the earth but in Revelations this earth is toast LOL well that part of the NT is all about us only us can destroy us humans if that makes any sence lol but the bible has never made any sence to me and never will.

Evil, wickedness, and violence are only part of sin if it is against the god's wishes. If there be no god there is no such thing as sin. This god approved of at least violence many times directed against those not of his chosen ones.

The Bible like many mythical tales makes sense only if you know no better. Like the Greek tale of Icarus when he flew too high with his wings made of wax that the Sun melted the wax and all the feathers fell out. It was a good tale back then but sounds ridiculous today.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
butterbattle

butterbattle wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Another thought however, in Genesis 8:21, the god says, "..neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done." And to further define so that he might have a future option to eradicate, in v 22, "While the earth remaineth...."

To be fair, in Genesis 9:11, God also says, "I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the Earth." So, maybe he can still destroy us in other ways? Although, it seems rather pointless what method he uses... 

So he won't smite every living thing as he did before, he'll just allow them all to die when the earth no longer remains. Or so these verses can be interpreted.

Never fear, the Mayan curse will get us all on 12-21-2012. Watch out for Planet X or is it a solar flare that day. These clowns must get together and come up with a singular 2012 Apocalypse. 

OK, I just watched the latest episode of Penn and Teller Bullshit! which was about the dumb fucks claiming 2012 is the Apocalypse. This made me wonder, do the authors of these 2012 books give a refund when their prediction of doom doesn't occur? Probably not. Penn and Teller have a great reverse mortgage plan in this episode.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


ferdi (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
about the original sin of adam and eve...

that is a very good point

 


E nd 3 R (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
I'm not going to be

I'm not going to be sarcastic beacuse it seems llike you really want to know the truth. 

 

Right off the bat, you're understanding is flawed.  You shouldn't generalize all Christians into a single believe system.

Many people regard themselves as  Christians despite the fact that they do not live accordingly.  - In the Bible they are identified as hypocrites

In addition to that, there are great multitudes of "Christians" who very sincerely wish to serve and follow the Lord, but

do not  fully understand what it is that they are supposed to do or believe.  _  in the Bible we are warned of the prevalance of False teachings, false prophets.

People argue that there are many holes in the Bible, they point out what they think are "contradictions"  as evidence thatthe book is useless,  the flaw here is generalizing the Christian faith.  People claim that the Bible is interpretative, and has contradicting ideas all over the place, this isn't the case, the Bible is very consistent.  The confusion begins with

people and thier various and assundry interpretations of popular passages,  passages that don't make any sense with eachother if they are interpreted in a certain way.  All that proves is that they're "interpretation" is wholly inaccurate, not the religion itself.  The fact of the matter is that if interpreted in a logical way we  can easily eliminate these so called "contradictions" .   The Bible tells us to prove all things

If that wasn't enough, according to the Bible itself, the VAST majority do not understand the truth.  So the traditional

idea that since more people think this way it's probably more correct doesn't work here.  Quite the opposite really,

according to the Bible  mainstream beliefs are more likely to be wrong.

 

You also don't seem to grasp the concept of the "gift" and sacrifice.  Specifically what the gift is and how to receive it.

The gift isn't eternal life in the presence of God, it's the gift of eternal life period.  There is no life without God, and you won't get to just live forever by yourself.  You should think of the gift more as an invitation, it's not something that's forced on you.  You make it sound like it's something being done to you without your permission.

Why you would think that it's something with no strings attached is beyond me, of course there are strings attached. Strings that are very clearly laid out.  

 

God regards sacrifice to be sacred... imagine that.   Man was to sacrifice animals and offer them to God in the earliest days.  God does want to forgive you himself, that was the whole point of Jesus coming in the first place.  Which was to make it easy to be forgiven by God, and you are forgiven by God, not Jesus.  Jesus didn't die on the cross so that he could forgive you,  he offered himself up as a sacrifice so that God himself would forgive the sins of man. 

This is why we don't sacrifice animals for forgiveness  anymore.  It would be insulting to God and Jesus, because there is no greater sacrifice than that of the son of God.  It would be a slap in the face.  This is also the reason that Jesus is your savior and not just an unnecessary middleman.  God isn't anyone's  savior, he is everyone's creator, big difference.  Jesus was sent to save us, who were doomed and in danger of perishing forever.  

 

 The blood sacrifice has always been the only way to receive forgiveness. Now that God has sent his son to us to be sacrificed for our forgiveness no other sacrifice counts.  Therefore there is no other way to be forgiven but through Jesus, all other options are now closed.  God has arranged for an open invitation for mankind to receive eternal life. The condition that you believe in Jesus as your savior being the only requirement/ qualification now makes perfect sense,  you wouldn't be able to claim any benefits of the sacrifice if you don't acknowledge the fact that it was a sacrifice made for you.  It's now the one and only free pass for everyone.  Take it or leave it.

 

"Let's see, if I choose not to accept Jesus as my savior, I am not necessarily punished with eternal damnation, I just don't get to live in the presence of god."

 

If you choose not to accept Jesus as your savior I dpn't believe that you would face eternal damnation, from what I've read in the Bible is pretty obvious that you will suffer the second death.  It's not just that you won't be in the presence of God, but that you'll no longer exist in any way, absolutely. 

Having said all this, it is my understanding from what I've read, that every single person who has ever lived will be resurrected , and shown how it is that God want's us to live.  Then after that people would then make there choise. To life the way that God intednded, or to refuse, be allowed to die and then never ever be brought back.

 

 


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10609
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Ugh. This'll take

Ugh. This'll take awhile.

"Right off the bat, you're understanding is flawed.  You shouldn't generalize all Christians into a single believe system."

Noone here is espousing that christianity is a single system. That is in fact, at least in part, how we know they are all wrong. Even the believers can't find enough common ground in a simple book to get a single belief system.

"Many people regard themselves as  Christians despite the fact that they do not live accordingly.  - In the Bible they are identified as hypocrites"

But there are multiple versions of the bible, so by definition they are all hypocrites. Noone can follow them all. Indeed, because they are all internally inconsistent, noone can follow any of them.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10609
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
"In addition to that, there

"In addition to that, there are great multitudes of "Christians" who very sincerely wish to serve and follow the Lord, butdo not  fully understand what it is that they are supposed to do or believe.  _  in the Bible we are warned of the prevalance of False teachings, false prophets."

You'd think an all powerful god who has our best intentions at heart would give us the freedom to choose to believe in it, and provide us with a consistent, inarguable, and cohesive ideology to follow when we do. But it doesn't, and there isn't one.

The next segment of your text is devoted to the ridiculous and false notion that the bible is consistent. It is not. Not with itself, and not with the world and life it describes. We have a whole subforum dedicated to these inconsistencies. You'll have to do a lot better than asserting this to make anyone here believe you're right. You already have posted in that subforum now, so there is no need to direct you to it.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10609
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
"The Bible tells us to prove

"The Bible tells us to prove all things"

So you aren't following the teachings of your own holy book. Maybe you've proved it to yourself, but you haven't proved it to anyone here.

"If that wasn't enough, according to the Bible itself, the VAST majority do not understand the truth."

Oh the irony. The largest religion in the world is wrong because the largest religion in the world says so.

"You also don't seem to grasp the concept of the "gift" and sacrifice.  Specifically what the gift is and how to receive it."

I don't see any 'gift' in having to be in the presence of an egomaniacal god as your own. Slavery is not a gift. And no theist in the history of Earth has explained to my satisfaction how sacrifice could accomplish anything. Someone had to get nailed to a log so god could love us? What a fucking asshole.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10609
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
"The gift isn't eternal life

"The gift isn't eternal life in the presence of God, it's the gift of eternal life period.  There is no life without God, and you won't get to just live forever by yourself.  You should think of the gift more as an invitation, it's not something that's forced on you.  You make it sound like it's something being done to you without your permission."

And you don't see the massive discrepancy here? You say we have no choice; then in the next sentence you say we do. Which is it?

"Why you would think that it's something with no strings attached is beyond me, of course there are strings attached. Strings that are very clearly laid out. "

Not clearly at all, or there wouldn't be two thousand years worth of debate on the subject.

"God regards sacrifice to be sacred... imagine that."

Yeah, imagine that. He's an asshole.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10609
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
"Man was to sacrifice

"Man was to sacrifice animals and offer them to God in the earliest days."

Well at least it's not just us that he's a prick to. Somehow though, I'm not relieved.

"God does want to forgive you himself, that was the whole point of Jesus coming in the first place.  Which was to make it easy to be forgiven by God, and you are forgiven by God, not Jesus.  Jesus didn't die on the cross so that he could forgive you,  he offered himself up as a sacrifice so that God himself would forgive the sins of man."

To which I refer you to my previous condemnation.

"This is why we don't sacrifice animals for forgiveness  anymore.  It would be insulting to God and Jesus, because there is no greater sacrifice than that of the son of God.  It would be a slap in the face.  This is also the reason that Jesus is your savior and not just an unnecessary middleman.  God isn't anyone's...."

In light of my dissection, that's just stupid. Unless perhaps you can succeed where your peers have failed.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10609
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
"If you choose not to accept

"If you choose not to accept Jesus as your savior I dpn't believe that you would face eternal damnation, from what I've read in the Bible is pretty obvious that you will suffer the second death.  It's not just that you won't be in the presence of God, but that you'll no longer exist in any way, absolutely."

Sounds far better than being a lapdog to evil. I look forward to it.

"Having said all this, it is my understanding from what I've read, that every single person who has ever lived will be resurrected , and shown how it is that God want's us to live.  Then after that people would then make there choise. To life the way that God intednded, or to refuse, be allowed to die and then never ever be brought back."

Why didn't your superman just do that in the first place? No sacrifice necessary, no undue suffering as a result. Sounds to me like you worship satan, not god.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3706
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
E nd 3 R wrote:Many people

Welcome to the forum!

E nd 3 R wrote:
Many people regard themselves as  Christians despite the fact that they do not live accordingly.  - In the Bible they are identified as hypocrites

In addition to that, there are great multitudes of "Christians" who very sincerely wish to serve and follow the Lord, but do not  fully understand what it is that they are supposed to do or believe.  _  in the Bible we are warned of the prevalance of False teachings, false prophets.

How do you identify the "real" Christians?

E nd 3 R wrote:
People argue that there are many holes in the Bible, they point out what they think are "contradictions"  as evidence thatthe book is useless,  the flaw here is generalizing the Christian faith.  People claim that the Bible is interpretative, and has contradicting ideas all over the place, this isn't the case, the Bible is very consistent.  The confusion begins with people and thier various and assundry interpretations of popular passages,  passages that don't make any sense with eachother if they are interpreted in a certain way.  All that proves is that they're "interpretation" is wholly inaccurate, not the religion itself.  The fact of the matter is that if interpreted in a logical way we  can easily eliminate these so called "contradictions" .

What's the "right" way to interpret the Bible?

E nd 3 R wrote:
The gift isn't eternal life in the presence of God, it's the gift of eternal life period.  There is no life without God, and you won't get to just live forever by yourself.  You should think of the gift more as an invitation, it's not something that's forced on you.  You make it sound like it's something being done to you without your permission.

So if I don't accept the invitation, I won't be tortured for all eternity?

E nd 3 R wrote:
Why you would think that it's something with no strings attached is beyond me,
 

Well, generally, when people give me gifts, there are no strings attached.

E nd 3 R wrote:
It's not just that you won't be in the presence of God, but that you'll no longer exist in any way, absolutely. 

Really? What about the gnashing thy teeth stuff? 

Edit: Holy crap, Vastet, can't you just make one big post?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10609
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
If the PS3 ever increases

If the PS3 ever increases the amount of text that can be written in one text box, or I regain access to a computer with which I have the freedom to go where I like on the net, I can return to my massive single post policy. Until then, trust me when I say it annoys me more than anyone else. Lol.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5098
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Nice thread Zoinbergs

butterbattle wrote:

2) God can’t defy logic, implying that the laws of logic transcend this universe and are more powerful than God. Or, maybe logic is part of God. This is potentially problematic for the theist, but based on what a philosophy professor told me, the alternative, that God doesn’t conform to logic, is much worse. 

I still can’t quite figure this stuff out.

 

I think you're ok with it.

The way this works is that god can't defy logic yet if this is true he is controlled by logic and therefore, not omnipotent.

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:If the PS3 ever

Vastet wrote:
If the PS3 ever increases the amount of text that can be written in one text box, or I regain access to a computer with which I have the freedom to go where I like on the net, I can return to my massive single post policy. Until then, trust me when I say it annoys me more than anyone else. Lol.

Dude.  Install Linux on your PS3.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/how_to/4263321.html

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10609
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
I did consider that when I

I did consider that when I got it. I didn't have a disc at the time, and it's a bit late now. I'll need to pick up a 80gb hdd before I can do it, or watch 2 years of game progress, multiple vid's, pic's, and tunes vanish into a magnetic void. Since such is the case, and 40 gb's isn't really big enough for a good pc, I'll wait until I can pick up a real doozy like 500 gb's, and just partition that right from the start.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Anonymous
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
zoinbergs wrote:But if

zoinbergs wrote:

But if that's the case, why does a bloody sacrifice still need to take place in order for me to spend eternal life in the presence of god?

I mean, why can't god just forgive me of my sins himself?  Why can't I just accept god himself as my savior?  Why did he feel it was necessary to send his son to do his dirty work for him?

Jesus now seems like an unnecessary middle man to me. 

      I  asked this question also.  So I  have a couple thoughts about it.       One possibility is that God, knowing the end from the beginning,  didn't necessarily want or require that.  But, knew that one possibility was that people would kill Jesus,   allowed it,  and ran with it sorta speak.      I don't think the blood and guts aspect of Jesus' life is the big deal to God as religion portrays it to be.  I mean the whole point of it all is what you asked, "why won't God just forgive".    It leads to  the knowledge that God has forgiven.   If God preplanned all this,  I actually think that God forgave us  from the beginning.  I am not sure God ever needed to forgive us from God's perspective.   God was never surprised by anything people did. Do you have to forgive your child or else?  I doubt it.  So I think the reality of it is better than what you said it should be like in order to make sense.   God didn't even need to forgive us from God's persective.   People feel that they need that.   A child who does wrong may feel they need that,  but the parent just loves the child.

  This also means to me that sin as portrayed in religion, is also not the issue they make it out to be,  to God.   Sin means to "miss the mark" is all.  Its not this big taboo evil thing that God  is all up in a rage about.  Thats religious hogwash!  

    I'd like also to briefly respond to each question you asked in the quote.

1st -   I don't think it needed to take place. God could have allowed something else. Remember, God is into hiding from us while we are in this carnal reality at the beginning of our lives.  So we will learn to see through this mess to God.

2nd- I don't think God ever needed to forgive you or ever will. God loves you, and is not surprised by any mistakes you have made.  I think we need to see through all the religious semantics ,  some of which God used,  but that doesn't mean it reflected God's heart.  God only uses religion.

3rd -  You can. God doesn't expect you to believe what you are not able to at a given time in your life. God loves you where you are now.

4th -  God didn't .  It was only one of multiple  possibilities. God just knew people would kill God.  And that at that more primitive time, people liked the idea of that more.  And for people like us in these times, we can understand that God really didn't care about all that blood and guts stuff !! It was just one of many possible means to the END that God cares about. Which is the restoration of all people from out of the corruption of this life.


Anonymous
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
I asked this also.

zoinbergs wrote:

But if that's the case, why does a bloody sacrifice still need to take place in order for me to spend eternal life in the presence of god?

I mean, why can't god just forgive me of my sins himself?  Why can't I just accept god himself as my savior?  Why did he feel it was necessary to send his son to do his dirty work for him?

Jesus now seems like an unnecessary middle man to me. 

      I  asked this question also.  So I  have a couple thoughts about it.       One possibility is that God, knowing the end from the beginning,  didn't necessarily want or require that.  But, knew that one possibility was that people would kill Jesus,   allowed it,  and ran with it sorta speak.      I don't think the blood and guts aspect of Jesus' life is the big deal to God as religion portrays it to be.  I mean the whole point of it all is what you asked, "why won't God just forgive".    It leads to  the knowledge that God has forgiven.   If God preplanned all this,  I actually think that God forgave us  from the beginning.  I am not sure God ever needed to forgive us from God's perspective.   God was never surprised by anything people did. Do you have to forgive your child or else?  I doubt it.  So I think the reality of it is better than what you said it should be like in order to make sense.   God didn't even need to forgive us from God's perspective.   People feel that they need that.   A child who does wrong may feel they need that,  but the parent just loves the child.

  This also means to me that sin as portrayed in religion, is also not the issue they make it out to be,  to God.   Sin means to "miss the mark" is all.  Its not this big taboo evil thing that God  is all up in a rage about.  Thats religious hogwash!  

    I'd like also to briefly respond to each question you asked in the quote.

1st -   I don't think it needed to take place. God could have allowed something else. Remember, God is into hiding from us while we are in this carnal reality at the beginning of our lives.  So we will learn to see through this mess to God.

2nd- I don't think God ever needed to forgive you or ever will. God loves you, and is not surprised by any mistakes you have made.  I think we need to see through all the religious semantics ,  some of which God used,  but that doesn't mean it reflected God's heart.  God only uses religion.

3rd -  You can. God doesn't expect you to believe what you are not able to at a given time in your life. God loves you where you are now.

4th -  God didn't .  It was only one of multiple  possibilities. God just knew people would kill God.  And that at that more primitive time, people liked the idea of that more.  And for people like us in these times, we can understand that God really didn't care about all that blood and guts stuff !! It was just one of many possible means to the END that God cares about. Which is the restoration of all people from out of the corruption of this life.


fullarmor2
Theist
fullarmor2's picture
Posts: 64
Joined: 2009-12-12
User is offlineOffline
zoinbergs wrote:But if

zoinbergs wrote:

But if that's the case, why does a bloody sacrifice still need to take place in order for me to spend eternal life in the presence of god?

I mean, why can't god just forgive me of my sins himself?  Why can't I just accept god himself as my savior?  Why did he feel it was necessary to send his son to do his dirty work for him?

     I asked this question also. So I have a couple thoughts about it. One possibility is that God, knowing the end from the beginning, didn't necessarily want or require that. But, knew that one possibility was that people would kill Jesus, allowed it, and ran with it sorta speak. I don't think the blood and guts aspect of Jesus' life is the big deal to God as religion portrays it to be.  God was never surprised by anything people did.  I don't think God ever needed to forgive us the way religion presents it, you know, as "turn or burn" to be forgiven.  So I think the reality of it is better than what you said it would be if it was to make sense. (why doesn't God just forgive)  God didn't even need to forgive us from God's perspective. People feel that they need that. A child who does wrong may feel that they need that, but the parent just loved the child.

     This also means that sin as portrayed in religion, is also not the issue they make it out to be, to God.  Sin means to "miss the mark" is all. Its not this big taboo evil thing that God is all up in a rage about.  Thats religious hogwash!

  I'd like also to briefly respond to each question you asked in the quote.

  1st - I don't think it needed to take place. God could have allowed something else. Remember, God is into hiding from us while we are in this carnal reality at the beginning of our lives.  I think one reason is,  so we can learn to see God,  past all this mess in the carnal realm.

 2nd - I don't think God ever needed to forgive you. God loves you, and is not surprised by any mistakes you have made. I think we need to see through all the religious semantics, some of which if not all,  God uses. But that doesn't mean it reflects God's heart.  God only  uses religion, as God uses other things. 

 3rd - You can. God doesn't expect you to believe what you are not able to at a given time in your life. God loves you where you are now.

 4th - God didn't. It was only one of multiple possibilities. God just knew people would kill God. And that, at that more primitive time,  people liked the idea of that more. And for people like us in these times, we can understand that God really didn't care about all that blood and guts stuff!! It was just one of many possible means to the END that God cares about. Which is the restoration of ALL people from out of the corruption of this life.


fullarmor2
Theist
fullarmor2's picture
Posts: 64
Joined: 2009-12-12
User is offlineOffline
     I should point out

     I should point out that I understand that those complaints are against  biblical teachings.     And what I'm saying  seems to contradict the bible. But remember that the bible is subject to different understandings and interpretations,  and I don't see it the way mainstream religion does,  through the lens of eternal torment doctrine.  I view it from the perspective of someone who believes that God really is love.


marshalltenbears
marshalltenbears's picture
Posts: 223
Joined: 2009-02-19
User is offlineOffline
 I can tell you what some

 I can tell you what some christians would say. 

There are so many different versions of hell, but one related to what you are talking about is that hell is complete separation from god and everything that is god. God is love, hell is hate, fear, terror, pain etc.. get the idea. Not necessarily the lake of fire (some say that is just a metaphor) but more like mental torture. 

As far as god forgiving your sins himself, the response you are most likely to get is that god is the definition of holiness, therefore can have nothing to do with sin. Once you have sinned god needs the middle man to forgive you for him. That is where jesus comes in, jesus was human and god at the same time, therefore could interact with and forgive the sinful. That is why once jesus took on all of the sin of the world onto himself god turned his back on him. Thus the part where jesus said " father why have you forsaken me?" 

There is a good chance you would get a response similar to this one, I know because I used it quite a bit once upon a time. 

"Take all the heads of the people
and hang them up before the Lord
against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3706
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
marshalltenbears wrote:That

marshalltenbears wrote:
That is why once jesus took on all of the sin of the world onto himself god turned his back on him. Thus the part where jesus said " father why have you forsaken me?" 

Lol. I don't understand that part either.

Did he choose to turn his back on Jesus? (he's such a nice father, isn't he?)

Or did he HAVE to?  

Both cases seem problematic. 

Edit: Aha! So, sacrificing Jesus is analogous to sacrificing an animal. The animal only lets you off on a little bit of sin though, whereas Jesus pardons you for eternity. I wonder if God has some system for assigning points (like in an RPG) to different sins, so that a certain amount of sin requires a certain amount of sacrifice. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


marshalltenbears
marshalltenbears's picture
Posts: 223
Joined: 2009-02-19
User is offlineOffline
 I never said it was going

 I never said it was going to make sense. These are just some of the explanations I have heard. And used.

"Take all the heads of the people
and hang them up before the Lord
against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4


marshalltenbears
marshalltenbears's picture
Posts: 223
Joined: 2009-02-19
User is offlineOffline
fullarmor2 wrote:     I

fullarmor2 wrote:

     I should point out that I understand that those complaints are against  biblical teachings.     And what I'm saying  seems to contradict the bible. But remember that the bible is subject to different understandings and interpretations,  and I don't see it the way mainstream religion does,  through the lens of eternal torment doctrine.  I view it from the perspective of someone who believes that God really is love.

That is one of many problems with the bible. There is no clear way to interpret it. It is up to the reader to decide how they will see it. Some like the fire and brimstone, lake of fire hell, others like to say it is a metaphor. Some believe the talking snake was a metaphor, some believe it literally. The problem with that is if one absurd story can be played off as a metaphor, why not all the absurd stories. I find a man coming back from the dead to be equally absurd as a talking snake. And if raising from the dead is metaphor then the entire faith falls apart. These are old played out arguments though I'm sure you have heard a hundred times. I will stop now.

"Take all the heads of the people
and hang them up before the Lord
against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4


REVLyle
TheistTroll
Posts: 236
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
It would be funny, but it is too sad

zoinbergs wrote:

Hi guys!  I've been a lurker on here for quite some time now.  Gotta love the intelligence this forum has to offer!  Today I have a question that I cannot already find an answer to though.  Perhaps someone can help me?  Thanks so much if you can!

Okay, so I've been slowly forming this thought, and I was wondering if my logic is correct..

I am having a very difficult time accepting Jesus Christ as any sort of savior to me simply because his followers make this claim that he "died for my sins" -- but before I was ever given the opportunity to let (or not let) him do so.

I mean, what if I didn't want eternal life?  What if I didn't want someone supposedly dieing for my sins?  (Assuming someone could even do such a thing in the first place.)

Where is my freedom of choice in all of this?

Of course we know what supposedly happens if I don't accept Jesus as my savior -- I go to hell, or at least not get into heaven.  I'm more concerned about the fact that I was born AFTER Jesus apparently died for my sins though.

It just seems so unfair!  Can someone help me with this?

I am just curious.  After you asked this question, did you go to an Amish community to ask about modern technology?  Do you go to your mechanic to ask about prescribing something for your fever?  Of course, none of that make any sense and yet you come to an atheist website to ask a theological question.  A bunch of people who do not even believe that God exists, and yet; they are somehow going to give you insight to Christianity????  Interesting to say the least.  I already know that some will claim that they went to church or they read the Bible.  Great.  I know lots of people who have spent 4 or 5 years majoring in biology, but that doesn't mean they are qualified to cut you open and operate.  Many of those here may remember parts of a story or some verses, but they certainly have never taken the time to study nor comprehend the Christian faith.  So again, why come here to ask about God?

I would be glad to answer this first question, and since it is late, I will defer until later the second question you asked.

You asked what if you do not want eternal life . . . Don't worry, whatever you choose, God is going to honor that choice for all eternity.  Those that reject his existence and reject his salvation, they will not receive it.  The most famous verse John 3:16, deals with such a simple question.  The Bible is quite clear about that.  It doesn't mean that unbelievers will not have to deal with it.

You question exposes one thing for sure . . . your concern is simply about self.  Jesus didn't die just for you, he died for mankind.  Why didn't you get a choice?  Well, one way to look at it is simply like this.  I have had people give my family a gift.  I have been given a gift card to take my family out to eat.  They did not have to get permission to buy the gift.  More specifically, they did not have to get permission from each individual in my family to give us (the entire family) the gift.  If someone said, "I don't want to go eat out at (name a restaurant) because I don't want it.  Fine, don't go, but the individual does not get to dictate the terms nor the acceptance for the rest of the family.

Let's get back to salvation.  Jesus didn't die just for you or just for me.  If you want to reject the gift of salvation . . . that is your choice.  The gift is offered and you simply reject it, but you do not get to dictate to God that you do not want the gift available to the rest of mankind.  You also do not get to refrain someone else from accepting the gift.  I have not rejected it.  I am grateful.  I am/will enjoy the gift.  So, don't worry - you do have a choice.

There are many things that are quite clear in scripture.  Two specific things are God is sovereign over all and man is responsible for his or her decision.  So zoinberg, feel free to reject it and your will, will be honored.  You will have to deal with the consequences of your decisions, but salvation is not and cannot be forced upon anyone.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


kidvelvet
atheist
kidvelvet's picture
Posts: 162
Joined: 2010-01-15
User is offlineOffline
Quote:I am just curious. 

Quote:
I am just curious.  After you asked this question, did you go to an Amish community to ask about modern technology?  Do you go to your mechanic to ask about prescribing something for your fever?  Of course, none of that make any sense and yet you come to an atheist website to ask a theological question.  A bunch of people who do not even believe that God exists, and yet; they are somehow going to give you insight to Christianity????  Interesting to say the least.  I already know that some will claim that they went to church or they read the Bible.  Great.  I know lots of people who have spent 4 or 5 years majoring in biology, but that doesn't mean they are qualified to cut you open and operate.  Many of those here may remember parts of a story or some verses, but they certainly have never taken the time to study nor comprehend the Christian faith.  So again, why come here to ask about God?

Oh, where to begin.  The Amish community would be a good place to go if you are wanting a counterpoint to modern technology (which fits here).  A mechanic cannot prescribe any medicine (false analogy).

What you have done, though, is made a GIANT assumption that atheists never studied Christianity. 

Many of us here grew up as Christians.  Unlike your biology analogy, we didn't just study it, we had to live it daily in our lives.  We either chose to believe with the same ferver you do, or we were forced to believe by families that would not have it any other way.  Think about it: if one of your offspring grew up in your household but then left Christianity after they became an adult, would you equate your teachings to your child as being equivalent to 4 years of biology class?  And how you equated the simple study of biology to somehow being qualified to be a surgeon is beyond me.

And you are listed as a theist troll...why am I not surprised?

Dolt:"Evolution is just a theory."
Me:"Yes, so is light and gravity. Pardon me while I flash this strobe while dropping a bowling ball on your head. This shouldn't bother you; after all, these are just theories."


REVLyle
TheistTroll
Posts: 236
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
Not even close 

No, no assumption here.  Just because you grew up in church does not mean you spent even one minute studying theology.  I also grew up in church.  I have visited many and simply because you were told some Bible stories and you were told to live by the 10 commandments doesn't mean you know even a hint about doctrine or theology.  

If my children left the faith . . . that is between them and God.  There are many teenagers who "go through the motions."  If you grew up in church and you deny God's existence - you are probably one of them.  Oh, you went to church, and you did the youth camp thing and you enjoyed the fun times and the closeness of friendship with other teenagers . . . but you most likely never STUDIED theology.  Perhaps you even went every Sunday because it was a social thing for you.  You see, I was one of those kids.  So, I know the drill.  I know what it is to even be one of the "good" kids in the church that all the adults thought was on the right track.  So, just because you went to church and played those games, please don't fool yourself and attempt to fool others by stating that you studied theology.

I never equated someone who studied biology with a surgeon.  You need to READ.  The point is that a biology student knows a lot about the human body.  They HAVE studied it for years, and yet they are not qualified to operate.  I will take your word for it that you went to church for years.  Just because you attempted not to lie, cheat, or steal does not mean that you are qualified to answer, intelligently, theological question.

The question still stands.  You, and others do not even believe in God.  The question asked on this thread, was not about the existence or non-existence of a God.  The question is specific to Christianity.   Let me see if I can give you another analogy to help you.  I read your tag concerning evolution. Tomorrow, go ask someone who does not believe in evolution to help you in your understanding of allometry.  By the way, most people who graduate from high school "studied" evolution. They were even tested on it.

The absurdity of a person asking a Christian theological question to people who do not believe in God is laughable.  

Perhaps that might help you out. 

The theist troll remark - and that is your 4th post????  A whole 7 days after joining???  WOW.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


REVLyle
TheistTroll
Posts: 236
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
Is love all God is???

Obviously we see things much differently, so I would like to ask you a question.

Is punishment and love always divorced from one another?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5098
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
I'm always intrigued

 

By the christian thought process. If you don't accept it, you don't understand it. If you lose your faith, your never had it. If you fall prey to legitimate doubts their loving god will murder you for it.

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


RatDog
atheistSilver Member
Posts: 562
Joined: 2008-11-14
User is offlineOffline
REVLyle wrote: Obviously we

REVLyle wrote:

Obviously we see things much differently, so I would like to ask you a question.

Is punishment and love always divorced from one another?

Kind of depends on the punishment. 

 


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5098
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Ohhhh goodie....

REVLyle wrote:

Obviously we see things much differently, so I would like to ask you a question.

Is punishment and love always divorced from one another?

 

A spanking thread....

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


REVLyle
TheistTroll
Posts: 236
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
WOW - How Stupid

I tell you what.  If you introduce or find me that person who has never sinned, other than Christ - the Son of God, and I will then renounce my faith.  Go find me that person who has never done anything wrong - and yet they are going to be punished for Adam and Eve's sin (because they are guilty of nothing).  How skewed can you get.

Let's make the video at least a little more accurate.  Let's be sure to portray Peter as a boy who has:

1.  Hated

2.  Lied

3.  Disobeyed

4.  Had perverted thoughts

5.  Perhaps Peter was actually Peter the great described as "loud-mouthed, violent, ruthless and impetuous"

     Maybe he was Peter Frampton and during the 70's he would experiment with drugs.

     Maybe, just maybe, he was Peter the apostle and this is a man who would abandon his friend in his greatest hour of need and then later was a racists because he didn't want to be around gentiles.

It is amazing how you guys never want to tell the entire truth.  Isn't there a passage that says, ALL HAVE SINNED.  The video didn't mention anything like that.  I wonder why?

Let's talk about Sam:

So, the message of the Bible is that God is going to punish Sam after he dies????  Very creative to say the least.

I must have an incomplete Bible.  Could you help me out by showing me these passages?????

Where is the passage that says that God is going to be angry at humanity forever?

Where is the passage that says that God created man, so that man would choose to obey him all the time?

Where does the Bible say that salvation comes to those who apologize to God for not being perfect?

Where does the Bible say that God forced Jesus to suffer for three days in hell?

Where does the Bible say that Sam has never sinned (remember - he is portrayed as perfect in the video) and Jesus just died for what Eve did?

Please show me the point in scripture where it says that God is angry at us, but loves us.

What is most interesting is that none of the blame is put upon Peter or Sam.  Ratdog, let me ask you a question.  Did your parents ever say, "If you (run through the house, lie, play in the street, etc . . . ) you are going to be in trouble.  Those are rules that most parents have and yet daily we have kids lying, running in their house, and playing in the street.  As adults we tell people, be honest, work hard, pay your taxes, etc . . . or else -  and daily we have people who are lazy, dishonest (even small things) cheat on taxes.  My point here is that all of us sin.  So the idea that we are these innocent people that God is just angry with us because of what Adam and Eve did is an absolute fantasy.  The Bible does not speak to fantasies.  It speaks truth.  So, it tells us quite clearly - all have sinned.  The Bible says we are "enemies of God." 

Why didn't the video even mention once - the evil of man (Peter and Sam)?

Thank you so much for proving my point.  It is absolutely ridiculous for someone to ask about Christian theology to people who do not even believe in God.  So much more I could say, but I will hold my tongue (and my typing)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5098
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Now Reverend Doctor

REVLyle wrote:

I tell you what.  If you introduce or find me that person who has never sinned, other than Christ - the Son of God, and I will then renounce my faith.  Go find me that person who has never done anything wrong - and yet they are going to be punished for Adam and Eve's sin (because they are guilty of nothing).  How skewed can you get.

Let's make the video at least a little more accurate.  Let's be sure to portray Peter as a boy who has:

1.  Hated

2.  Lied

3.  Disobeyed

4.  Had perverted thoughts

5.  Perhaps Peter was actually Peter the great described as "loud-mouthed, violent, ruthless and impetuous"

     Maybe he was Peter Frampton and during the 70's he would experiment with drugs.

     Maybe, just maybe, he was Peter the apostle and this is a man who would abandon his friend in his greatest hour of need and then later was a racists because he didn't want to be around gentiles.

It is amazing how you guys never want to tell the entire truth.  Isn't there a passage that says, ALL HAVE SINNED.  The video didn't mention anything like that.  I wonder why?

Let's talk about Sam:

So, the message of the Bible is that God is going to punish Sam after he dies????  Very creative to say the least.

I must have an incomplete Bible.  Could you help me out by showing me these passages?????

Where is the passage that says that God is going to be angry at humanity forever?

Where is the passage that says that God created man, so that man would choose to obey him all the time?

Where does the Bible say that salvation comes to those who apologize to God for not being perfect?

Where does the Bible say that God forced Jesus to suffer for three days in hell?

Where does the Bible say that Sam has never sinned (remember - he is portrayed as perfect in the video) and Jesus just died for what Eve did?

Please show me the point in scripture where it says that God is angry at us, but loves us.

What is most interesting is that none of the blame is put upon Peter or Sam.  Ratdog, let me ask you a question.  Did your parents ever say, "If you (run through the house, lie, play in the street, etc . . . ) you are going to be in trouble.  Those are rules that most parents have and yet daily we have kids lying, running in their house, and playing in the street.  As adults we tell people, be honest, work hard, pay your taxes, etc . . . or else -  and daily we have people who are lazy, dishonest (even small things) cheat on taxes.  My point here is that all of us sin.  So the idea that we are these innocent people that God is just angry with us because of what Adam and Eve did is an absolute fantasy.  The Bible does not speak to fantasies.  It speaks truth.  So, it tells us quite clearly - all have sinned.  The Bible says we are "enemies of God." 

Why didn't the video even mention once - the evil of man (Peter and Sam)?

Thank you so much for proving my point.  It is absolutely ridiculous for someone to ask about Christian theology to people who do not even believe in God.  So much more I could say, but I will hold my tongue (and my typing)

 

 

Could you pick out for me the sins in your comprehensive list that warrant eternal torture, please? I'm curious to know. Or does any single pesky little sin qualify for burning in hell forever? 

For god so loved the world he sent his only begotten satan that whosoever believeth in him should not only perish but have everlasting death...

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


REVLyle
TheistTroll
Posts: 236
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
Let's go your route again

Introduce me to that person who has only done, you know, that one or two little pesky sins.  You see the problem you are going to have is that we all DAILY choose to sin. 

Again, let's deal with the real world - not the fantasy that you are proposing.

Now, come on.  Show me where those verses are I asked about.  Especially the one you put at the end of your post. 

Just think . . . every time I post - God's word is being printed automatically by this website.  Interesting isn't it.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5098
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Even using your weird

 

and brutal system of judgment no one on the planet deserves eternal torment. It's a ridiculous proposition - one you have no sensible proof of. Your wanking on with 3:16 is no righter than my new improved version. If god sent jesus to save us, he also sent satan to trick us. You'd have to deliberately obtuse to disagree with me. god's word. Give me a break. It's the word of man, overcooked, scrambled, frozen, thawed and cooked again. No wonder it tastes bloody awful.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck