Personal god versus universal intelligence (Rising Sun)

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Personal god versus universal intelligence (Rising Sun)

Rising Sun wrote:
Personal god versus universal intelligence

I don't understand why there is so much disagreement when it comes to the belief in a universal intelligence.  When it comes down to the belief that there is a personal god answering our prayers, I can see why this is utterly contradictory to scientific observation.  But does this exclude the possibility of a universal force that is the underlying cause of all that exists?  I certainly did not create myself, nor did anyone create his or her personal attributes.  I am me not because I am the author of me.  I beleive we are an expression of a creative force that lies beyond our immediate understanding, but just because we cannot see this force does not mean that this force does not exist?  And just because my definition of god is different than your definition, does not  mean that my definition is necessarily untrue.  Don't you agree?

 

Please continue here. :3

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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Awfully vague. Even for a

Awfully vague. Even for a definition of a god.


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crazymonkie wrote:Awfully

crazymonkie wrote:

Awfully vague. Even for a definition of a god.

I'm trying to make a distinction between a personal god and a force that controls everything from the laws of the solar system to the laws that distinguish us from animals. These laws I call god.  I am not religious per se, although I have a belief that we are being guided by this intelligence.  I don't pray, I don't go to church, I am very secular but I do have a faith that our world was not created by chance alone.

 


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:3

Rising Sun wrote:

crazymonkie wrote:

Awfully vague. Even for a definition of a god.

I'm trying to make a distinction between a personal god and a force that controls everything from the laws of the solar system to the laws that distinguish us from animals. These laws I call god.  I am not religious per se, although I have a belief that we are being guided by this intelligence.  I don't pray, I don't go to church, I am very secular but I do have a faith that our world was not created by chance alone.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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:3

I would say you follow Pantheism fairly clearly.


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ooh! oh! me next! do me next!

ooh! oh! me next! do me next!


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Yup. Textbook non-personal

Yup. Textbook non-personal pantheism. I know you were trying to put up a definition, but... eh... pantheism somehow manages to be even more vague than the idea of an interventionist god.

Of course we every once in a while may think there's 'something' else 'out there....' but it's just a feeling. The human brain makes patterns- often excessively- and your god is really not much more than this trend. Which is not to say that it can't be really life-changing and humbling and all that. Just that it all comes from your brain.

OrdinaryClay wrote:
If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.


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The Doomed Soul wrote:ooh!

The Doomed Soul wrote:

ooh! oh! me next! do me next!

I don't know where you've been. Where's my Purell?

OrdinaryClay wrote:
If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.


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I think this is what he's

I think this is what he's getting at:


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crazymonkie wrote:Yup.

crazymonkie wrote:

Yup. Textbook non-personal pantheism. I know you were trying to put up a definition, but... eh... pantheism somehow manages to be even more vague than the idea of an interventionist god.

Of course we every once in a while may think there's 'something' else 'out there....' but it's just a feeling. The human brain makes patterns- often excessively- and your god is really not much more than this trend. Which is not to say that it can't be really life-changing and humbling and all that. Just that it all comes from your brain.

Doesn't everything come from our brains?  I don't want to get into a metaphysical argument at this point.  What I am saying is that regardless of what a person believes, his thoughts come from his brain.  But does this mean that people who have a feeling that there is something else out there are only the result of brainwaves that create patterns?  I don't think so.  I am not saying that I believe there is some entity 'out there'.  I guess I am a pantheist, if this word is defined as the belief that we are all part of an order that can be termed life.


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:3

The Doomed Soul wrote:

ooh! oh! me next! do me next!

 

There are things I never get tired of hearing.

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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Quote:Doesn't everything

Quote:
Doesn't everything come from our brains?

In terms of emotional states and anything involving thought, yeah.

Quote:
What I am saying is that regardless of what a person believes, his thoughts come from his brain.  But does this mean that people who have a feeling that there is something else out there are only the result of brainwaves that create patterns?  I don't think so.

Your first point: correct.

Your second: incorrect. If, as you've said (we're in agreement) ALL mental states come from the brain- that means that the patterns which we see, regardless of whether or not they really do represent actual patterns, come from our brains as well.

Yes, all the feelings that something else is out there IS the result of brainwaves and pattern creation. Unless you want to argue for some kind of dualism. Good luck on that; if metaphysics hasn't been able to even coherently define the 'other side' for millenia, I'm afraid you're not in such good shape.

Quote:
I am not saying that I believe there is some entity 'out there'.

My mistake... I did forget that pantheism argues for the full immanence of the supernatural in the natural. Sort of an equating, in a way.

Quote:
I guess I am a pantheist, if this word is defined as the belief that we are all part of an order that can be termed life.

Nah, what makes you a pantheist is your belief in some sort of force or energy that suffuses everything- and which you call 'god.' Definitely pantheism.

OrdinaryClay wrote:
If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.


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ClockCat wrote:The Doomed

ClockCat wrote:

The Doomed Soul wrote:

ooh! oh! me next! do me next!

 

There are things I never get tired of hearing.

OMFG! ClockCat is a top. No f'in way.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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:3


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ClockCat wrote:I accept your

ClockCat wrote:

I accept your challenge!

 

 

 

( ... hmm appears to not be the real one, but close enough!)

What Would Kharn Do?


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:3

Gauche wrote:

ClockCat wrote:

The Doomed Soul wrote:

ooh! oh! me next! do me next!

 

There are things I never get tired of hearing.

OMFG! ClockCat is a top. No f'in way.

 

I go back and forth, it depends on who the other person is.

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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The Doomed Soul

The Doomed Soul wrote:

ClockCat wrote:

I accept your challenge!

 

 

 

( ... hmm appears to not be the real one, but close enough!)

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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/sigh... the extent i will

/sigh... the extent i will go, for self amusement...

Now if only i could wipe that search off my youtube account -_-

What Would Kharn Do?


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Hmm... how to beat Giant,

Hmm... how to beat Giant, Blue, 8bit, Wang...?


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ClockCat wrote: I got it! 

ClockCat wrote:

 

I got it!

 


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:3

 

 

 

 

 

 

Finishing pancake!


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ClockCat wrote:  Finishing

ClockCat wrote:

 

 

Finishing pancake!

Well played... well played...

 

*Ahem* Gentlemen...


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:3


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Going to be tough to beat

Going to be tough to beat that... i shall have to ponder this thoroughly...


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ClockCat wrote:I shall match

ClockCat wrote:

I shall match cheap costumes with cheap costumes!

 

 

...wonder if Kevin knows anything about this... o_O?

What Would Kharn Do?


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Shit, how do you post vids

Shit, how do you post vids here D:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHo0rJC5t-o


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The Flying Spaghetti Monster

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

Shit, how do you post vids here D:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHo0rJC5t-o

Copy embedded code

Insert edit Flash icon in the bar above

Paste it

Manually insert size

and bingo

(probably easier... but this is the only way i can get it to work on my IE... )

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thanks

thanks


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They made a movie about what

They made a movie about what you are talking about. It is called Star Wars....the "force"

 

"Take all the heads of the people
and hang them up before the Lord
against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4


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marshalltenbears wrote:They

marshalltenbears wrote:

They made a movie about what you are talking about. It is called Star Wars....the "force"

 

Marshal, this forum has rules, ok...? Thall shalt not rerail a derailed thread... or something

So... since Starwars was mentioned, in the spirit of this thread, i hereby submit

 

 

Clockcat started it, blame him! >.<

What Would Kharn Do?


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Rising Sun wrote:....and a

Rising Sun wrote:

....and a force that controls everything from the laws of the solar system to the laws that distinguish us from animals. 

 

To what end? And who do we register our displeasure with for the awful job being done?

How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais


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Quote:Doesn't everything

Quote:
Doesn't everything come from our brains?

In terms of emotional states and anything involving thought, yeah.

Quote:
What I am saying is that regardless of what a person believes, his thoughts come from his brain.  But does this mean that people who have a feeling that there is something else out there are only the result of brainwaves that create patterns?  I don't think so.

Your first point: correct.

Your second: incorrect. If, as you've said (we're in agreement) ALL mental states come from the brain- that means that the patterns which we see, regardless of whether or not they really do represent actual patterns, come from our brains as well.

Yes, all the feelings that something else is out there IS the result of brainwaves and pattern creation. Unless you want to argue for some kind of dualism. Good luck on that; if metaphysics hasn't been able to even coherently define the 'other side' for millenia, I'm afraid you're not in such good shape.

I guess we can conclude that ALL the feelings that tell us something is not out there are also the result of brainwaves and pattern creation, so it doesn't tell us anything more than what we already suspected; we cannot prove or disprove the existence of god through this channel.

Quote:
I am not saying that I believe there is some entity 'out there'.

My mistake... I did forget that pantheism argues for the full immanence of the supernatural in the natural. Sort of an equating, in a way.

Then I am definitely not a pantheist because I don't believe in the supernatural, and therefore I don't believe in the full immanence of the supernatural in the natural.

Quote:
Nah, what makes you a pantheist is your belief in some sort of force or energy that suffuses everything- and which you call 'god.' Definitely pantheism.

I do not believe in an external force which is controlling the universe.  That doesn't even come close to what I believe god to mean.  I'd like to know the difference between pantheism and naturalism.  I think I am closer to being a naturalist than a pantheist. I do not ascribe to dualism, therefore I am not arguing for the existence of anything outside of the material, natural world.


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ClockCat wrote:The Doomed

ClockCat wrote:

The Doomed Soul wrote:

ooh! oh! me next! do me next!

 

There are things I never get tired of hearing.

Somethin' for the Fellas (That Like the Fellas)

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


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testing

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


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I cant believe we are

I cant believe we are physically able to post newgrounds shit on here!

 

 

... and i cant believe Gene just posted that of all things >.<

What Would Kharn Do?


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and then i broke it while he

and then i broke it while he was altering it... you'll all thank me later... except for maybe Clockcat...

What Would Kharn Do?


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The Doomed Soul wrote:and

The Doomed Soul wrote:

and then i broke it while he was altering it... you'll all thank me later... except for maybe Clockcat...

 

So that is what happened.  Now I can't edit the post again.  But yah, I know the trick to vreaking the newgrounds locks.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


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Size is a little big... and

Size is a little big... and i can see it being taken down for autoload properties...


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His Definition of 'Love' is

His Definition of 'Love' is still the best line to ever come from anything that even once possibly stood close to being in the presence of anything bearing the 'Star Wars' Logo. 

When you say it like that you make it sound so Sinister...


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Sinphanius wrote:His

Sinphanius wrote:

His Definition of 'Love' is still the best line to ever come from anything that even once possibly stood close to being in the presence of anything bearing the 'Star Wars' Logo. 

 

Sarcasm: I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about

 

(Only decent one with decent audio, video sucks though... )

What Would Kharn Do?


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ClockCat wrote: Rising Sun

ClockCat wrote:
Rising Sun wrote:
Personal god versus universal intelligence

I don't understand why there is so much disagreement when it comes to the belief in a universal intelligence.  When it comes down to the belief that there is a personal god answering our prayers, I can see why this is utterly contradictory to scientific observation.  But does this exclude the possibility of a universal force that is the underlying cause of all that exists?  I certainly did not create myself, nor did anyone create his or her personal attributes.  I am me not because I am the author of me.  I beleive we are an expression of a creative force that lies beyond our immediate understanding, but just because we cannot see this force does not mean that this force does not exist?  And just because my definition of god is different than your definition, does not  mean that my definition is necessarily untrue.  Don't you agree?

 

Please continue here. :3

What Rising Sun doesn't realize is that both a personal and non-personal god
PERSONIFY something to be God.

How fucking complicated is this for any bone-head to understand.

What's your fucking need for a god, pea-brain!

You Pantheists accomplish the idiotic by simply redefining English. You call nature, "God". What fucking retarded reason is there for doing that!


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Rising Sun

Rising Sun wrote:

Quote:
Doesn't everything come from our brains?

In terms of emotional states and anything involving thought, yeah.

Quote:
What I am saying is that regardless of what a person believes, his thoughts come from his brain.  But does this mean that people who have a feeling that there is something else out there are only the result of brainwaves that create patterns?  I don't think so.

Your first point: correct.

Your second: incorrect. If, as you've said (we're in agreement) ALL mental states come from the brain- that means that the patterns which we see, regardless of whether or not they really do represent actual patterns, come from our brains as well.

Yes, all the feelings that something else is out there IS the result of brainwaves and pattern creation. Unless you want to argue for some kind of dualism. Good luck on that; if metaphysics hasn't been able to even coherently define the 'other side' for millenia, I'm afraid you're not in such good shape.

I guess we can conclude that ALL the feelings that tell us something is not out there are also the result of brainwaves and pattern creation, so it doesn't tell us anything more than what we already suspected; we cannot prove or disprove the existence of god through this channel.

Quote:
I am not saying that I believe there is some entity 'out there'.

My mistake... I did forget that pantheism argues for the full immanence of the supernatural in the natural. Sort of an equating, in a way.

Then I am definitely not a pantheist because I don't believe in the supernatural, and therefore I don't believe in the full immanence of the supernatural in the natural.

Quote:
Nah, what makes you a pantheist is your belief in some sort of force or energy that suffuses everything- and which you call 'god.' Definitely pantheism.

I do not believe in an external force which is controlling the universe.  That doesn't even come close to what I believe god to mean.  I'd like to know the difference between pantheism and naturalism.  I think I am closer to being a naturalist than a pantheist. I do not ascribe to dualism, therefore I am not arguing for the existence of anything outside of the material, natural world.

There are newer forms of Pantheism, such as Scientific
Pantheism that are not as focused on the mystical shit that Spinoza wrote about.

Nevertheless, Einstein's "god letter" summed up some of my feelings about gods, religions and Pantheism quite well.


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You certainly need more than

You certainly need more than just the feeling that there is 'something out there' to even hint at the possible reality of what you imagine it might be., otherwise you would have to take account of millions of imagined beings from alien abductors to fairies, demons, invisible critters or forces, etc, which people have imagined throughout history.

 

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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treat2 wrote:Rising Sun

For the record, I only wrote the text that is quoted in double quotes below, and have no idea (nor any interest in knowing) who wrote the text that erroneously became combined with my own in my previous post:

"There are newer forms of Pantheism, such as Scientific
Pantheism that are not as focused on the mystical shit that Spinoza wrote about.

Nevertheless, Einstein's "god letter" summed up some of my feelings about gods, religions and Pantheism quite well."

(Soz for the "double post".
I want to avoid confusion regarding the text that appeared in that post.)


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treat2 wrote:ClockCat wrote:

treat2 wrote:
ClockCat wrote:

Rising Sun wrote:
Personal god versus universal intelligence

I don't understand why there is so much disagreement when it comes to the belief in a universal intelligence.  When it comes down to the belief that there is a personal god answering our prayers, I can see why this is utterly contradictory to scientific observation.  But does this exclude the possibility of a universal force that is the underlying cause of all that exists?  I certainly did not create myself, nor did anyone create his or her personal attributes.  I am me not because I am the author of me.  I beleive we are an expression of a creative force that lies beyond our immediate understanding, but just because we cannot see this force does not mean that this force does not exist?  And just because my definition of god is different than your definition, does not  mean that my definition is necessarily untrue.  Don't you agree?

 

 

Please continue here. :3

What Rising Sun doesn't realize is that both a personal and non-personal god PERSONIFY something to be God. How fucking complicated is this for any bone-head to understand. What's your fucking need for a god, pea-brain! You Pantheists accomplish the idiotic by simply redefining English. You call nature, "God". What fucking retarded reason is there for doing that!

 

I don't call you names and I would appreciate the same respect.


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treat2 wrote:Rising Sun

treat2 wrote:
Rising Sun wrote:

Quote:
Doesn't everything come from our brains?

In terms of emotional states and anything involving thought, yeah.

Quote:
What I am saying is that regardless of what a person believes, his thoughts come from his brain.  But does this mean that people who have a feeling that there is something else out there are only the result of brainwaves that create patterns?  I don't think so.

Your first point: correct.

Your second: incorrect. If, as you've said (we're in agreement) ALL mental states come from the brain- that means that the patterns which we see, regardless of whether or not they really do represent actual patterns, come from our brains as well.

Yes, all the feelings that something else is out there IS the result of brainwaves and pattern creation. Unless you want to argue for some kind of dualism. Good luck on that; if metaphysics hasn't been able to even coherently define the 'other side' for millenia, I'm afraid you're not in such good shape.

I guess we can conclude that ALL the feelings that tell us something is not out there are also the result of brainwaves and pattern creation, so it doesn't tell us anything more than what we already suspected; we cannot prove or disprove the existence of god through this channel.

Quote:
I am not saying that I believe there is some entity 'out there'.

My mistake... I did forget that pantheism argues for the full immanence of the supernatural in the natural. Sort of an equating, in a way.

Then I am definitely not a pantheist because I don't believe in the supernatural, and therefore I don't believe in the full immanence of the supernatural in the natural.

Quote:
Nah, what makes you a pantheist is your belief in some sort of force or energy that suffuses everything- and which you call 'god.' Definitely pantheism.

I do not believe in an external force which is controlling the universe.  That doesn't even come close to what I believe god to mean.  I'd like to know the difference between pantheism and naturalism.  I think I am closer to being a naturalist than a pantheist. I do not ascribe to dualism, therefore I am not arguing for the existence of anything outside of the material, natural world.

Quote:
There are newer forms of Pantheism, such as Scientific Pantheism that are not as focused on the mystical shit that Spinoza wrote about. Nevertheless, Einstein's "god letter" summed up some of my feelings about gods, religions and Pantheism quite well.

I would appreciate if you stop associating me with being a pantheist because, as I already stated, I am closer to a naturalist in that I believe in materialism rather than supernaturalism.  The only thing I am adding to this is that this world is not an accident, in my view.  Therefore whatever created the sun and the moon is the same force that created me and you.  I prefer to think this way rather than think that we are here by chance, and also because there is more probability that we are not here by chance.  God (or the guiding force that has given me consciousness) is not anything we see directly, or feel mystically.  But it does feel comforting to know that even though there is no personal god looking after me (in my personal view) that there IS a natural order to the world.  I choose to think this way even though it is a gamble that I could be wrong.  Until proven otherwise, I will take this belief to the bank for two reasons:

1.  If it doesn't turn out to be true, then I can always change my worldview to accomodate new information, but in the meantime I choose to believe in some higher intelligence that runs the show.  Why?  Nothing more than it gives me a sense of security and I like feeling secure rather than insecure, don't you?

2.  If it turns out to be true, then I didn't waste all these years trying to prove something that, in the end, was not only wrong but gave me a feeling of emptiness and meaninglessness.  I know I can create my own meaning in life, just as I can believe that I created myself.  I don't believe I created myself, so that's out.  With this way of thinking,  there is also a danger of becoming egotistical as well as being wrong.

 


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Would people stop using this

Would people stop using this thread as a free for all?  Make your own thread and don't be a parasite on mine just because you think it's okay to be disrespectful.


Thomathy
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Rising Sun wrote:Would

Rising Sun wrote:

Would people stop using this thread as a free for all?  Make your own thread and don't be a parasite on mine just because you think it's okay to be disrespectful.

Good luck.  Honestly, I appreciate the fun.  Even if I can't see any of the (possibly) awesome content in the thread.  Anyone following this thread will see that you've been given the utmost respect for your quandary.  I disagree, however, so I might not be very trustworthy.

ClockCat, are those real, are they good and have you ever eaten them?  Eye-wink

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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BobSpence1 wrote:You

BobSpence1 wrote:

You certainly need more than just the feeling that there is 'something out there' to even hint at the possible reality of what you imagine it might be., otherwise you would have to take account of millions of imagined beings from alien abductors to fairies, demons, invisible critters or forces, etc, which people have imagined throughout history.

I agree to a certain extent with what you are saying.  But by the same token, those who believe in no intelligence must also prove themselves.  There is no proof, and what I am seeing from people who are bent on being correct in the god/no god argument, is vicdictiveness when those who believe in some kind of intelligence speak their truth.


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Thomathy wrote:Rising Sun

Thomathy wrote:

Rising Sun wrote:

Would people stop using this thread as a free for all?  Make your own thread and don't be a parasite on mine just because you think it's okay to be disrespectful.

Good luck.  Honestly, I appreciate the fun.  Even if I can't see any of the (possibly) awesome content in the thread.  Anyone following this thread will see that you've been given the utmost respect for your quandary.  I disagree, however, so I might not be very trustworthy.

ClockCat, are those real, are they good and have you ever eaten them?  Eye-wink

Thank you Thomathy for your true feelings.  I appreciate your thoughts.  I am not having fun if I feel that I am being put down.  If the people can have an honest discussion, that would be great, but I think those who don't believe in god THINK they are better than those who believe in an intelligence, higher power, god, call it what you will.  This makes the conversation very biased, and as much as this forum thinks they are being fair, that is not how it is coming forth in real terms.  This is not just about one's perception; this is about people being mean to others.  I thought this place was a rational forum.  As far as I'm concerned, they don't live up to their name unless they demand respect on all sides of this controversy.