Near-Death Experiences

Paisley
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Near-Death Experiences

It has been argued by many members on this particular forum that there is absolutely no evidence that consciousness can exist independently of the brain and the body. Well, this is not entirely true. There is evidence - namely, NDEs (Near-Death Experiences) and OBEs (Out of Body Experiences). This thread will discuss the near-death experience. 

The phenomenological aspects associated with near-death exepriences are listed below. These characteristics have been reported regardless of culture or society (although the vocabulary employed to describe the experiences have differ).

Quote:

1 A very unpleasant sound/noise is the first sensory impression to be noticed (R. Moody: Life after Life);

2 A sense of being dead;

3 Pleasant emotions; calmness and serenity;

4 An out-of-body experience; a sensation of floating above one's own body and seeing the surrounding area;

5 Floating up a blue tunnel with a strong, bright light or garden at the end;

6 Meeting deceased relatives or spiritual figures;

7 Encountering a being of light, or a light (often interpreted as being the deity or deities in whom they personally believe);

8 Being given a life review (the "life-flashing-before-your-eyes" phenomenon);

9 Reaching a border or boundary;

10 A feeling of being returned to the body, often accompanied by a reluctance.

11 Feeling of warmth even though naked.

(source: Wikipedia: Near-death experience)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_death_experience#cite_note-autogenerated2-43

NDEs have steadily increased in accordance with the advancement in modern resuscitation technology. A Gallop Poll reported in 1992 that nearly eight million Americans have experienced a NDE. [1] Recent scientific studies have demonstrated that between 10 and 20% of people who are clinciallly near death (such as cardiac arrest) have reported a near-death experience. [2]

NDEs have transformative power. Individuals (including former avowed atheists) who have undergone NDEs have reported personality changes (less anxiety and fear concerning death, a change of values from materialistic ones to spiritual ones, and inner peace). [3] In fact, A. J. Ayer (self-professed atheist and eminent philosopher and proponent of "logical positivism" ) is reported to have had a near death experience in which he had purportedly seen "God." [4]

The NDE of Pam Reynolds is especially interesting because of the situation in which it occurred. Reynolds had to undergo a very risky brain surgery due to an aneurysm. The operation required that her brain be completely drained of all blood. She would be declared clinically dead during the operation. During this time, she would experience an NDE. Later she recounted her experience, describing things during the operation that were validated by the medical staff.

Quote:

Reynolds was under close medical monitoring during the entire operation. During part of the operation she had no brain-wave activity and no blood flowing in her brain, which left her clinically dead. She made several observations about the procedure which later were confirmed by medical personnel as surprisingly accurate.

This famous near-death experience is considered by many to be proof of the reality of the survival of consciousness after death, and of a life after death 

(source: Wikipedia: Near-death experience)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_death_experience#cite_note-autogenerated2-43

1 < Mauro, James (1992) Bright lights, big mystery. Psychology Today, July 1992. http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19920701-000030.html

2 < http://www.aspsi.org/feat/life_after/tymn/bruce_greyson.htm

3 < Ex-atheist describes near-death experience: 01/31/2004 http://archive.southcoasttoday.com/daily/01-04/01-31-04/c04rg223.htm

4 < "Did Atheist Philosopher See God When He Died?" by William Cash, National Post http://gonsalves.org/favorite/atheist.htm

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


The Doomed Soul
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Paisley wrote:Actually,

Paisley wrote:

Actually, physical phenomena is not the only reality we have. We also have mental phenomena. Moreover, science has never established that the physical world is actually physical. That's not speculation. That's a fact. Hence, materialism (like dualism) is a metaphysical belief.

Speaking of mental phenomena...

 

 

ClockCat wrote:

Paisley, you should test your theory by allowing someone to stab you.

OH! oooooh! UUUUUGH! me! me! pick me! MEEEEE! ill do it! Doomy do good job! You'll see!

 

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The Doomed Soul wrote:

Paisley wrote:

Actually, physical phenomena is not the only reality we have. We also have mental phenomena. Moreover, science has never established that the physical world is actually physical. That's not speculation. That's a fact. Hence, materialism (like dualism) is a metaphysical belief.

Speaking of mental phenomena...

 

 

ClockCat wrote:

Paisley, you should test your theory by allowing someone to stab you.

OH! oooooh! UUUUUGH! me! me! pick me! MEEEEE! ill do it! Doomy do good job! You'll see!

 

 

I'll keep you in mind, there is a long waiting list. I have to check your references and past employment...you were never a convicted felon right? You were? Put that in the work related experience section. "Shanking" is an important skillset here.

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ClockCat wrote:I'll keep you

ClockCat wrote:

I'll keep you in mind, there is a long waiting list. I have to check your references and past employment...you were never a convicted felon right? You were? Put that in the work related experience section. "Shanking" is an important skillset here.

Im not gonna lie about this... im not a convicted felon, hell... im not even part of a criminal organization... i havent even been hired for an assassination yet! Im just a fresh young upstart looking to break his way into the business  

 

What Would Kharn Do?


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The Doomed Soul wrote:

ClockCat wrote:

I'll keep you in mind, there is a long waiting list. I have to check your references and past employment...you were never a convicted felon right? You were? Put that in the work related experience section. "Shanking" is an important skillset here.

Im not gonna lie about this... im not a convicted felon, hell... im not even part of a criminal organization... i havent even been hired for an assassination yet! Im just a fresh young upstart looking to break his way into the business  

 

 

Entry level shanking it is.

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The Flying Spaghetti Monster

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

Paisley wrote:

You can induce clinical death on command? Interesting.

No, it's not clinical death. As another member mentioned, it's probably Hypnagogia. My body has fallen asleep but my mind is conscious. And yes, I eventually began to control it so I can slip in and out of this state as I wish. Not that I really want to.

The subject matter of this thread is NDEs, which typically involves cardiac arrest and clinical death, not hypnagogia or "sleep paralysis."

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

Paisley wrote:

To reiterate: OBEs (out-of-body experiences) and NDEs (near-death experiences) are not interchangeable terms. OBEs are fairly common. I have had many OBEs, but I have never experienced a NDE (at least not in the present life).

Also, your statement "but occasionally it feels as if I’m levitating" definitely lends itself to what many would call the paranormal.  

I don't think what I'm talking about is either or. I don't believe in OBE's or NDE's. I was explaining what I go through and how I think others do confusing it for an outer body experience or near death experience. And no, I do not believe in the paranormal. Feeling like I'm levitating is probably just a reaction to being so relaxed.

It would appear that you are the one who is confused here. While NDEs typically entail an OBE, the converse is not true.  Also, it appears that you are confused as to whether you were really levitating or not (the term "probably" in your comment suggests this much).

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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The Flying Spaghetti Monster

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

Paisley wrote:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:
I'm sure there's a biological explanation for all of this that we either don't understand yet,

This is simply an "argument from personal belief." And belief being displayed here is a faith-commitment to materialism. 

I have absolutely no idea what you're implying there.

It's called "promissory materialism." You don't have a materialistic explanation that accounts for all the aspects reported in NDEs and yet you are "promising" us that a materialistic explanation is forthcoming. The promise is based on a faith-commitment to materialism (even though there is evidence to suggest that the mind and the brain are not identical).

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Paisley wrote:...there is

Paisley wrote:

...there is evidence to suggest that the mind and the brain are not identical.

Oh, so you mean emergent properties of things aren't the same as the things from which they emerged? Well, one learns something new every day.

Second: We can actually measure and quantify material things (and physical, non-material things- such as gravity). So no, it's not 'faith,' it's EVIDENCE. Something you don't have. You have a series of feelings, and, based upon the history of making this feeling into the basis of observation and organization of what's 'real,' I am truly justified in saying you have nothing at all.

At least physicalists have empirical data. You don't even have that.

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Paisley wrote:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

Paisley wrote:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:
I'm sure there's a biological explanation for all of this that we either don't understand yet,

This is simply an "argument from personal belief." And belief being displayed here is a faith-commitment to materialism. 

I have absolutely no idea what you're implying there.

It's called "promissory materialism." You don't have a materialistic explanation that accounts for all the aspects reported in NDEs and yet you are "promising" us that a materialistic explanation is forthcoming. The promise is based on a faith-commitment to materialism

 

Isn't that called...common sense? Look at the precedent, and you see things have been explained that were thought "mystical" time and time again.

 

You obviously didn't read the article several years ago in the New York Times that I linked.

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Paisley wrote:The subject

Paisley wrote:

The subject matter of this thread is NDEs, which typically involves cardiac arrest and clinical death, not hypnagogia or "sleep paralysis."

Near death experience is a TYPE of out of body experience. I was explaining my own personal experience which has symptoms of both such as: "lucid experience associated with perceived consciousness apart from the body and physical paralysis ."

 

Paisley wrote:

It would appear that you are the one who is confused here. While NDEs typically entail an OBE, the converse is not true.  Also, it appears that you are confused as to whether you were really levitating or not (the term "probably" in your comment suggests this much).

You know nothing of my medical history, and considering most of my episodes were BEFORE I was able to control them (and after I actually had a...near death...experience), it's possible it wasn't completely an OBE. I don't know why you're arguing so strongly on the semantics of the two terms when the heart of the issue is whether it's paranormal or not. Sounds like you're deflecting what you cannot explain for something you feel you can easily argue against. I don't care which term you're arguing in this thread, they're both biological reactions, and both very similar. How about you try to tie in this whole "consciousness existing outside the body," bullshit you began this thread with?

And no, there's no confusion as to whether or not I was actually FLOATING ABOVE MY BODY. I already said I don't believe in the paranormal and that it FELT as though I was. The word PROBABLY was directed at "being so relaxed," not as in "I was probably levitating." XD Seriously, get smarter.

 


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Paisley wrote:The Flying

Paisley wrote:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

Paisley wrote:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:
I'm sure there's a biological explanation for all of this that we either don't understand yet,

This is simply an "argument from personal belief." And belief being displayed here is a faith-commitment to materialism. 

I have absolutely no idea what you're implying there.

It's called "promissory materialism." You don't have a materialistic explanation that accounts for all the aspects reported in NDEs and yet you are "promising" us that a materialistic explanation is forthcoming. The promise is based on a faith-commitment to materialism (even though there is evidence to suggest that the mind and the brain are not identical).

1. Polkinghorne's objections are pretty much due to his Christianity. Dual aspect monism is watered down dualism as deism is watered down theism. Following polytheistic religions leads to all kinds of foolishness.

2. Still waiting on you to produce peer-reviewed evidence...

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Paisley wrote:The Flying

Paisley wrote:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

Paisley wrote:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:
I'm sure there's a biological explanation for all of this that we either don't understand yet,

This is simply an "argument from personal belief." And belief being displayed here is a faith-commitment to materialism. 

I have absolutely no idea what you're implying there.

It's called "promissory materialism." You don't have a materialistic explanation that accounts for all the aspects reported in NDEs and yet you are "promising" us that a materialistic explanation is forthcoming. The promise is based on a faith-commitment to materialism (even though there is evidence to suggest that the mind and the brain are not identical).

First of all, you can word it anyway you want but I'm not "promising" anything. Secondly, there is a biological explanation. People often say "sure" when they're too occupied to pull up research debunking an issue of only partial interest. I'm not going to reserach this topic for you, and don't feel passionate enough about it to put forth an effort. My intention was to share what I thought was directly related. Also, biological evidence is the backbone for any medical unknown. It has nothing to do with having faith or making a commitment to the explanation when real scientists know it's not about wishing or hoping, but simply waiting until the answer presents itself. Only religious people need faith in explaining what they don't understand.


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The Flying Spaghetti Monster

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

How about you try to tie in this whole "consciousness existing outside the body," bullshit you began this thread with?

 

He can't and won't. You're new here, so I'll tell you now: Paisley never defines his terms, merely asserts that dualism has a 'priveleged' position in epistemology. Why? Well, because we have a subjective 'inner world' of course!

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I like this. Sukisho was a good series.


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 Here ClockCat, have an

 Here ClockCat, have an internet, you've earned it.

 


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BobSpence1 wrote:If a brain

BobSpence1 wrote:

If a brain revived, it was not dead. Death is defined as irreversible cessation of brain function.

Wiki wrote:

Note that brain electrical activity can stop completely, or drop to such a low level as to be undetectable with most equipment. This includes a flat EEG during deep anaesthesia or cardiac arrest.

The Wiki quote says that "the brain's electrical activity can stop COMPLETELY." How do you explain NDEs in a computer (the metaphor employed to describe the brain on the materialist view) without any electrical activity? I will remind you that you argued in another thread that during dreamless sleep there is no consciousness. IOW, you made an argument in another thread in which you implied that the brain undergoes periods of time (during sleep) when a normally functioning brain generates no consciousness whatsoever. Now you would have us believe that the brain of an individual in a state of clinical death is able to generate consciousness. How exactly does that work?

BobSpence1 wrote:

It would require much more sophisticated equipment than typically present or necessary in a medical environment to prove complete absence of blood in the brain. Since the physical deterioration of the brain that leads to irreversible damage is due to the same loss of blood that affects neural activity, the fact that good recovery followed effectively proves that there was not sufficient loss of blood for long enough to completely stop activity for a sustained period. Memory would not be expected to register a period of zero activity which then picked up again - it is unsurprising if the patients remembered a more or less continuous experience.

Your argument is contradictory. First you argue that there was not enough loss of blood to completely stop brain activity. Then you argue that memory would not be expected to register in a brain that is inactive. Which one is it? Active or inactive? You can't have it both ways.

At any rate, Pam Reynolds had no brain activity and no blood in her brain during the operation.

Quote:

For a brief period in the middle of the procedure, she had a flat EEG, a non-responsive brain stem and no blood in her brain.

(source: Wikipedia: Pam Reynold's NDE)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds

BobSpence1 wrote:

Unless the eyes were known to be closed fully during the period of the experience, it is also not impossible that some vision was possible. Hearing would have also been possible, which would have given the mind important cues.

Sorry, but Pam Reynolds "eyes were closed with tape" and "small ear plugs with speakers were plugged in her ears. These speakers emitted audible clicks which were used to check the function of the brain stem." *

* (source: Wikipedia: Pam Reynolds' NDE)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds

BobSpence1 wrote:

Once again, there is nothing here that really challenges the idea that consciousness cannot survive separate from the brain.

I have just provided you with evidence that clearly suggests that consciousness continues to function even though the brain is nonfunctional. Whether or not you acknowledge this does not change the fact that there is evidence.

BobSpence1 wrote:

There have been several places where unusual notices are deliberately left on the top of cabinets or equipment in operating theaters, so as to be completely out of sight of anyone standing on the floor, that could form significant support for the reality of OOB experiences if reported by patients after recovery. AFAIK, there have been no such reports. Reports of sights and sounds in the vicinity of the patient that could have been normally witnessed, are not adequate to demonstrate non-corporeal sensory activity.

There is a noted veridical OBE in which the patient properly identified a tennis shoe located on the ledge of window that could only be seen from a vantage point located outside the hospital. The link is below.

http://www.esalenctr.org/display/confpage.cfm?confid=3&pageid=22&pgtype=1

BobSpence1 wrote:

OOB experience, the feeling that one is really outside one's body and actually looking at it from elsewhere can be induced using virtual reality equipment, which demonstrates that the feeling of being outside your body requires only experiencing images and possibly other physical sensations consistent with being out of your body, which are well within the range of the hallucinatory mechanism. It therefore does not mean that your consciousness is actually somehow outside the body. The brain adjusts its perception of the location of physical 'self' to match sensory perception. At a simpler level, this is easily demonstrated with 'rubber hand' experiments, which I am sure Paisley, as a serious student of such topics, will be aware of...

IOW, we appear to have no innate direct perception of the 'location' of our awareness.

Reproducing the illusion of an OBE is not the same thing as reproducing an actual OBE. Also, you are only reproducing one component of an OBE. Besides, I just provided you with documented cases of veridical OBEs.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Di66en6ion wrote: Paisley,

Di66en6ion wrote:

 Paisley, why don't you contend with the fact that people who experience OBE's see absolutely nothing that's outside of their field of vision? Lay some photo's on the floor around a person that's having an NDE and they won't recognize a single one. I wonder why..

I have provided a documented case of a veridical NDE and OBE in the OP. Also, I have provided other documented cases. Whether you acknowledge this or not does not change the fact.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Subdi Visions

Subdi Visions wrote:

Incidentally, I never claimed to be an intellectually sophisticated atheist. I'm barely above mouth breathing idiot.

Agreed.

By the way, thanks for the honesty. This allows me to direct my time and energy elsewhere.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Paisley wrote:Subdi Visions

Paisley wrote:

Subdi Visions wrote:

Incidentally, I never claimed to be an intellectually sophisticated atheist. I'm barely above mouth breathing idiot.

Agreed.

By the way, thanks for the honesty. This allows me to direct my time and energy elsewhere.

 

Now come on. Was that really neccesary?

Why don't we all lay off the with all the douchebaggery?

 

 

 

Don't forget to reply to my post Paisley.

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I was spawned from original sin
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ClockCat

ClockCat wrote:

http://www.sandrablakeslee.com/articles/out-of-body_oct06.php

All you need right there. It was found out several years ago this is all attributed to normal brains behaving erratically. Out of body experiences can be recreated at will with any person.

Several points:

1) Electrically stimulating the angular gyrus in the brain and producing an experience that mimics some aspects of an OBE is not new. Canadian neurosurgeon Wilder Penfield discovered this 50 years prior to Olaf Blanke's discovery in 2002.

2) Producing the illusion of an OBE is not to be confused with the spontaneous OBE that is experienced in a near death experience. There are important differences.

a) Electrically induced "OBEs" do not generate the accurate descriptions of the environment as reported in the documented case studies of NDEs.

b) Electrically induced "OBEs" do not generate the psychological after-effects or personality transformations that individuals undergo who have experienced an NDE.

Bruce Greyson (professor of psychiatry at UVA and prominent researcher in the field of NDE studies) comments on this and other forms of so-called induced "OBEs." Here's the link.

http://www.aspsi.org/feat/life_after/tymn/bruce_greyson.htm

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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LOL

 

 

The mission of the Academy of Spirituality and Paranormal Studies, Inc. is to discern, develop and disseminate knowledge of how paranormal phenomena may relate to and enhance the development of the human spirit.
- Mission Statement

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PURPOSES OF THE ACADEMY

ACADEMY OF SPIRITUALITY AND PARANORMAL STUDIES, INC. was formed in December, 2005. Its purposes are threefold:

FIRST, to encourage dialogue, exchange of ideas and cooperation between clergy and academics of religion and philosophy and scientists, researchers and academics of all scientific and humanistic disciplines in the fields of psychical research and new disciplines as well as the historic sciences.

SECOND, to conduct an education program for these scholars, it's members and the general public, blending data already available in the area of their common interest with the interchange of views stimulated in these scholars, to the end that both the scientific and religion communities may be better informed about such facts and views and their propriety, value and respectability.

THIRD, to work closely with, and offer good offices to, all reputable organizations having related interests in the fields of education, religion, science and psychical research.

The ACADEMY will endeavor to sponsor conferences and symposia for the presentation of scholarly data, points of view, and interchange of ideas in the area where religion and psychical research interface; publish papers resulting from such meetings and other appropriate materials on this area that will be of interest to academics, scientists and clergy; and monitor, evaluate, explain and report the significant data in this area for the benefit of scholars.

 

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My god their website design is horrible.

 

 

http://www.aspsi.org

 

 

Really, look at that. It looks like it was made by a 3rd grader as a hobby.

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Yes, the credibility is assured of any website that talks about interviews with the dead. "Tailor-fit" indeed.

 

http://www.aspsi.org/feat/life_after/tymn/_life_after_death.php#interview_deceased

 

 

HAHAAHahaha.. oh my god... this is hilarious.

 

 

 

This is like, geocities come back all over again.

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Careful Clock... they can

Careful Clock... they can track you!

If your not catious, you'll be dodging invisible psyballs in no time!

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I have never really

I have never really understood why so called NDEs are taken so seriously by such a large number of people. I mean, people are quite unreliable at assessing reality as it is, but we are supposed to believe them more when their brains are deprived of oxygen?!


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The psyballs are clearly an impending danger, providing the website is accurate, professional and clearly has no ulterior motives like forcing a bastard combination of existing religion and "science" that might limit their viewpoints to trying to find "one specific answer" that supports their idea, rather than...well you know, how science works, of accepting the results no matter what they show.

 

 

Oh wait.

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Paisley

Paisley wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Perhaps you should have read what Hamby said as well as previous threads on this subject. Clinically dead is not dead - dead. The brain is still running on the last little bit of oxygen and blood. When the brain is dead-dead, there is no coming back. NDEs are no more than low power operations in a CPU that is untrustworthy and giving blue screens. 

I have read what he said (and I might add it was painfully tedious) and I responded to it accordingly. Pam Reynold's NDE occurred when her brain was completely drained of blood. So that undermines your argument.

No it does not.

1-Her body temp was lowered to allow more time for the surgery.

2-The amount of time her brain was not receiving oxygenated blood was approximately 6 minutes.

3-Her brain was blue screening and misfiring as all brains do with inadequate amounts of oxygen, supposing she is of normal human origin.

Paisley wrote:

Quote:

During part of the operation she had no brain-wave activity and no blood flowing in her brain, which left her clinically dead

(source: Wikipedia: Pam Reynold's NDE)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_reynolds

Since she was only clinically dead and not dead-dead this proves nada. Brain wave activity can be difficult to monitor in some conditions including lowered body temp.

Paisley wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Paisley wrote:

2) Everyone is essentially having the same "dream."

No. They are having oxygen deprived brain misfirings which are as a PC in blue screen, errors and bullshit occurring.

NDEs have been formally studied and researchers have identify core characteristics of the experience which I have provided in the OP and supported by citing a source.

Yes you have and no one disputes that people have in some cases these experiences. This does not however support your consciousness ideas that it is separate from the mind or brain as I mentioned. If it were so all humans that experience near death should have this experience. They don't.

Paisley wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
 

When I was 18 I was shot in the head and nearly died. I had no NDE. I was so drugged I have foggy memories of being examined and have no clue if I was awake or it was imagination. The next I knew I awoke in a bed with bandages all around my head. So everyone is not having the same "dream", as I had no dream. 

You stated that you "had no NDE." If you didn't have a near-death experience, then you didn't experience the core "dream." Duh!

I had near death, but no light flashing dreams etc. I was dead for several minutes but was unaware of being so as I was already drugged. Not everyone gets a NDE dream, some get nothing like I did. If this was consciousness separating from the body even if I was drugged I should have experienced the NDE dream.

So being that many individuals do not have NDE dreams when they clinically die what does that signify? According to several web sites I found with Google approximately 5% of the US population supposedly has had a NDE. What I can't find are statistics that compare NDEs to Non-NDES. I found a book by PMH Atwater called The Big Book of Near Death Experiences. In promos on google books he claims from 12 to 20% experience it. Do you have data or sources?  How many NDEs occur per 100,000 near deaths? If the brain and consciousness are as you suggest it should be 100%, but it's not as many are like me and had no NDE when they clinically die. Care to explain or is this simply unknown?

 

Paisley wrote:

Incidentally, the core experiences or characteristics of the typical NDE are not really being disputed at this point. Skeptical researchers are not attempting to debunk the experience as such (that is a losing strategy). They are simply attempting to identify biological processes in order to somehow show that NDEs are nothing more than hallucinations.

I know.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Paisley wrote:Di66en6ion

Paisley wrote:

Di66en6ion wrote:

 Paisley, why don't you contend with the fact that people who experience OBE's see absolutely nothing that's outside of their field of vision? Lay some photo's on the floor around a person that's having an NDE and they won't recognize a single one. I wonder why..

I have provided a documented case of a veridical NDE and OBE in the OP. Also, I have provided other documented cases. Whether you acknowledge this or not does not change the fact.

 

No, you didn't even read what I wrote. Link ONE case study where people could see surroundings OUTSIDE of their field of view during an OBE/NDE. Someone saying they saw something on the floor and a nurse agreeing with them is not evidence. Show us an article where controlled conditions were put into place. There are some reports of doctors doing exactly that to real OBE/NDE patients with no results. It's funny how all your mysticism and new age woo dissapears when placed inside controlled conditions to remove your fanatical bias.

 

Edit:

 

Found a nice video to sum up Paisley:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyOHJa5Vj5Y

 


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Paisley wrote:It has been

Paisley wrote:

It has been argued by many members on this particular forum that there is absolutely no evidence that consciousness can exist independently of the brain and the body. Well, this is not entirely true. There is evidence - namely, NDEs (Near-Death Experiences) and OBEs (Out of Body Experiences). This thread will discuss the near-death experience. 

The phenomenological aspects associated with near-death experiences are listed below. These characteristics have been reported regardless of culture or society (although the vocabulary employed to describe the experiences have differ).

 

While I personally have never had an NDE I have experienced a ADC (After Death Experience) which I've yet to scientifically explain.

I was in China, 12 hours ahead of Florida, when during my sleep I was visited by my grand mother. From what I remember of the event was my grandmother's hands and a feeling or thought that "every thing was ok".

After review of the event I called home and was told my grand mother was ok, but I was being lied to by my family as to not upset my vacation.

The following evening the same event took place and I called home again the next day only to be lied to again. My girlfriend then tried to lie also, but I was able to get the truth out of her.

When I returned from China I was told the truth and that she had passed at or around 1:30pm, which would have been the time I was asleep in China.

I was told by my mother that at the time of my grandmother's passing she was asking for me.

I am not a believer in "god", nor a "creator". I do not believe in any religion and this event has not changed my position on such subjects or ideas. I am a rational thinking individual. I observe and question that which I experience.

I have no doubts that in some form or fashion there is no end to thought only a transformation from one form to another. Such an idea stems from observations in nature. All things are born and all things decay and all things are recycled.

 

 


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digitalbeachbum wrote:

Paisley wrote:

It has been argued by many members on this particular forum that there is absolutely no evidence that consciousness can exist independently of the brain and the body. Well, this is not entirely true. There is evidence - namely, NDEs (Near-Death Experiences) and OBEs (Out of Body Experiences). This thread will discuss the near-death experience. 

The phenomenological aspects associated with near-death experiences are listed below. These characteristics have been reported regardless of culture or society (although the vocabulary employed to describe the experiences have differ).

 

While I personally have never had an NDE I have experienced a ADC (After Death Experience) which I've yet to scientifically explain.

I was in China, 12 hours ahead of Florida, when during my sleep I was visited by my grand mother. From what I remember of the event was my grandmother's hands and a feeling or thought that "every thing was ok".

After review of the event I called home and was told my grand mother was ok, but I was being lied to by my family as to not upset my vacation.

The following evening the same event took place and I called home again the next day only to be lied to again. My girlfriend then tried to lie also, but I was able to get the truth out of her.

When I returned from China I was told the truth and that she had passed at or around 1:30pm, which would have been the time I was asleep in China.

I was told by my mother that at the time of my grandmother's passing she was asking for me.

I am not a believer in "god", nor a "creator". I do not believe in any religion and this event has not changed my position on such subjects or ideas. I am a rational thinking individual. I observe and question that which I experience.

I have no doubts that in some form or fashion there is no end to thought only a transformation from one form to another. Such an idea stems from observations in nature. All things are born and all things decay and all things are recycled.

 

 

 

 

..Yeah...I'm going to go with when you die, all that is left of you is a corpse rotting in the ground.

 

Until someone proves otherwise, that is the only thing we know. The rest is just wild speculation.

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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ClockCat wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

While I personally have never had an NDE I have experienced a ADC (After Death Experience) which I've yet to scientifically explain.

I was in China, 12 hours ahead of Florida, when during my sleep I was visited by my grand mother. From what I remember of the event was my grandmother's hands and a feeling or thought that "every thing was ok".

After review of the event I called home and was told my grand mother was ok, but I was being lied to by my family as to not upset my vacation.

The following evening the same event took place and I called home again the next day only to be lied to again. My girlfriend then tried to lie also, but I was able to get the truth out of her.

When I returned from China I was told the truth and that she had passed at or around 1:30pm, which would have been the time I was asleep in China.

I was told by my mother that at the time of my grandmother's passing she was asking for me.

I am not a believer in "god", nor a "creator". I do not believe in any religion and this event has not changed my position on such subjects or ideas. I am a rational thinking individual. I observe and question that which I experience.

I have no doubts that in some form or fashion there is no end to thought only a transformation from one form to another. Such an idea stems from observations in nature. All things are born and all things decay and all things are recycled.

 

..Yeah...I'm going to go with when you die, all that is left of you is a corpse rotting in the ground.

 

Until someone proves otherwise, that is the only thing we know. The rest is just wild speculation.

That's fine for every one else, but not for me. Rationalizing the experience I have narrowed down several explainations for what I experienced.

Since the experience is not repeatable it will need to remain an experience for me and me alone.

 


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Nikolaj wrote:Paisley

Nikolaj wrote:

Paisley wrote:

There are several problems with your analysis.

1) The "dreaming" is taking place in a brain and body that is declared "clinically dead." IOW, the computer (to use the materialist's metaphor of the mind/brain) is without power. This presents problems for the materialist because he has to explain how the operating system and software applications (the metaphors employed to describe the mind on the materialist view) are executing while the hardware (the brain) is nonfunctional.

Well, you can't actaully know this. It is quite possible (and from a materilistic perspective, necesary) that the experiences take place before the brain enters the clinically dead state, or as it is returning to life. Just like you have no sense of when in time you have a dream, you have no sense of when you are experiencing the NDE. When the brain is deprived of oxygen, it will likely have a short period of activity, in which the NDE occours, just like an engine running on vapours from an otherwise empty gastank.

You're attempting to make two separate arguments. First, you argue that the NDE occurs before or after clinical death. Then you argue that the NDE occurs during clinical death but the brain has just enough oxygen to function. Which one is it? Do you believe NDEs occur during clinical death or not?

Nikolaj wrote:
 

I'm reminded of a scene from one of my favorite Books: Use of Weapons by Iain M. Banks, in which the main character is decapitated, and still sees the next few seconds, as he's head rolls on the ground to face his headless body. A powerful scene, but not at all unbelievable, since his brain still has oxygen from the last gust of blood it recieved before it was detached from his heart.

You're drawing a comparison between documented cases of NDEs and a fictitious character in a fictional book?

Nikolaj wrote:
  

People say: "I had a dream last night", but as we know, it would probably be more appropriate to say, "I had a dream this morning", since the dreams you can remember, and recount to others, are dreams that you have just before you return to your wake state. You experience several periods of REM sleep during the night, and probably dream during all of them, but only the ones you have shortly before you wake up stay in your mind.

People who have NDEs vehemently deny that they are dreamlike experiences. In fact, they consider them to be the most profound experiences of their lives.

Nikolaj wrote:

Paisley wrote:

2) Everyone is essentially having the same "dream."

Because everyone is having essentially the same experience: they are dying (or returning to life). While the brain is "running on vapours", why should it not be possible that it shuts down, or turns on varies brainregions in the same order: the "tunnel vision" section, then the "Thinking of relatives" section, then the "seeing bright glowing balls" section et.c.

The brain does not show any wave activity during clinical death. So, this idea that the brain is "running on vapours" is purely speculation and conjecture. Furthermore, why would an individual have a vivid experience when his or her brain is running on empty?  NDErs report having mental clarity. Based on your theory (assuming that the mind and the brain are identical and that the brain is actually running on vapours), we would expect there to be (at the very most) mental confusion and disorder, not mental clarity. 

Nikolaj wrote:

And furthermore, they are having essentially the same experience, not exactly the same experience. For one thing, they see their own relatives, not somebody elses. This makes me think that that is because it is their brain having the experience, again completely consistent with a materialistic world view.

It would stand to reason that they would encounter deceased individuals that they were most emotionally connected to.

Also, how does seeing dead people (whether they are loved ones or strangers) during a state of clinical death support the materialistic worldview?

Incidentally, there have been documented cases in which NDErs have reported seeing dead relatives that they didn't even know were dead at the time of the experience.

Nikolaj wrote:

Paisley wrote:

3) Those who are having the "dream" are having a dream of an out-of-body experience in which they are able to make observations in the emergency or operating room which are later confirmed by the medical staff.

 

And as I said, this is intriguing, but you didn't say in your first post that all of those who experiences NDE's do that. You only said Pam Reynolds did. And I said that that was intriguing, and had me stumped, but that a p of one is not sufficient evidence to draw a definitive conclusion.

What is a "p of one?"

Nikolaj wrote:

Are you now saying everyone who experiences NDE's have such coorporated stories? Because, like I said, I am intriguied, so if you can provide me with evidence, you have me right where you want me, but you can't just mention Pam Reynolds in the OP, and then go on to say Those who are having the "dream" are having a dream of an out-of-body experience in which they are able to make observations, and expect me not to notice.

You showed me evidence for one case, not all of them.

No, I am not saying that everyone who has experienced an NDE have had their experiences corroborated or verified. However, there are many NDEs (not only the Pam Reynolds' case) that have been verified. The link below provide cases of veridical NDEs (e.g. an individual was able to identify the nurse who retrieved his dentures from his mouth while he was comatose and undergoing CPR for cardiac arrest and another woman was able to identify a tennis shoe on the ledge of a window that could only be seen from the vantage point of being outside the hospital).  Also, there are cases of individuals who were blind from birth that have reported seeing for the first time during an NDE.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research11.html

Nikolaj wrote:
 

Paisley wrote:

The problem is that avowed atheists are also having these "fantasies."

But do they identify the glowing ball as God? Or do only some of them do? You said yourself that diffent religious people recount their NDE's with their OWN deity in the staring role. Atheists don't have deities, so therefore where does the bright light-ball come from you say?

True, I did say that. But all experiences (not only NDEs and OBEs) are influenced by an individual's background and cultural-conditioning. Moreover, I do not consider these NDEs to be literal descriptions of another physical reality (although the initial OBE most likely is as many NDEs have been verified). The important thing that I take from this is that there is a mental realm that exists independently of the physical.

Nikolaj wrote:

Well if I were to die and have a powerful experience of NDE, and later return I might think the ball was God, but that's just because I think about the concept of God alot. And the God would be one that suits my personality, I'm sure. Some sort of pantheistic, non-sentient presence of power of the universe, because that is the only God I can imagine. The rest are paradoxal.

The pantheistic God is sentient. I am now digressing but this is an important point. The "light" that is encountered in an NDE is typically described as a sentient, loving being (sometimes it is described as the fires of hell).

Nikolaj wrote:

But what about a former muslim, or former lutheran, or babtist, who is an atheist, but whose life has been steeped in images of one particular religion? If they return from an NDE believing anew, which God do you think they will say they met? Hmmm?

I have explicilty stated that NDEs vary. However, a typical progression or pattern has been identified.

http://www.near-death.com/faq.html

Nikolaj wrote:

Paisley wrote:

Correction. Her "dreamlike state" does not begin until her brain is completely drained of all blood.

How do you know? Can you identify the time during the night where a given dream you are having commences and ends?

The timeline is recorded in the Wikipedia article on Pam Reynolds' NDE. Moreover, both Pam Reynolds' eyes and ears were taped shut before the operation commenced. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds

Nikolaj wrote:

The ability to document things that has happened while she was out, is however, alot more interesting. Since this is only one case, it is not sufficient evidence to draw any conclussion, since it hasn't been repeated. With a p of 1, there is always the possibility of a fluke, a coincidence, or a hoax, but I'm not one to kill anyones buzz.

Sure, you can argue that both the patient and the medical staff were  in cahoots. But what evidence do you have that there was some kind of conspiracy?

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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crazymonkie wrote:Paisley

crazymonkie wrote:

Paisley wrote:

...there is evidence to suggest that the mind and the brain are not identical.

Oh, so you mean emergent properties of things aren't the same as the things from which they emerged? Well, one learns something new every day.

Second: We can actually measure and quantify material things (and physical, non-material things- such as gravity).

Gravity is both physical and nonmaterial? Well, I guess the nonphysical is real. You have just made the argument for it.

crazymonkie wrote:

So no, it's not 'faith,' it's EVIDENCE. Something you don't have. You have a series of feelings, and, based upon the history of making this feeling into the basis of observation and organization of what's 'real,' I am truly justified in saying you have nothing at all.

At least physicalists have empirical data. You don't even have that.

Materialists have no evidence that mental phenomena are physical. Mental phenomena have no measureable physical property. And they are not amenable to third-person observation. So, this belief that mental phenomena are physical is simply that...a belief.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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The Flying Spaghetti Monster

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

Paisley wrote:

The subject matter of this thread is NDEs, which typically involves cardiac arrest and clinical death, not hypnagogia or "sleep paralysis."

Near death experience is a TYPE of out of body experience. I was explaining my own personal experience which has symptoms of both such as: "lucid experience associated with perceived consciousness apart from the body and physical paralysis ." 

OBEs are not identical to NDEs (although a classic NDE entails an OBE).

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

Paisley wrote:

It would appear that you are the one who is confused here. While NDEs typically entail an OBE, the converse is not true.  Also, it appears that you are confused as to whether you were really levitating or not (the term "probably" in your comment suggests this much).

You know nothing of my medical history,

I know that you employed the term "probably." Now either you are telling the truth or you are lying. It's that simple.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

and considering most of my episodes were BEFORE I was able to control them (and after I actually had a...near death...experience), it's possible it wasn't completely an OBE.

Unless you were actually NEAR death (such as cardiac arrest), you were not having an NDE.

And if it is "possible" that it wasn't completely an OBE, then your experience is irrelevant.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

I don't know why you're arguing so strongly on the semantics of the two terms when the heart of the issue is whether it's paranormal or not. Sounds like you're deflecting what you cannot explain for something you feel you can easily argue against.

The only deflecting occurring here is from materialists who cannot provide an explanation why a clinically dead brain is having a conscious experience.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

I don't care which term you're arguing in this thread,

The subject matter of this thread is the near-death experience. If you don't care, then you should not participate.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:
 

And no, there's no confusion as to whether or not I was actually FLOATING ABOVE MY BODY. I already said I don't believe in the paranormal and that it FELT as though I was. The word PROBABLY was directed at "being so relaxed," not as in "I was probably levitating."

Those who have actually experienced NDEs and floated over their body are NOT confused as to whether it was real or merely a feeling. Also, I have provided evidence of veridical NDEs.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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NDE, etc are old news.  

NDE, etc are old news.   There nothing there, except a few wacko's on the fringe who claim to be studying it.

 

But let me uderstand this correctly, Paisley, are you saying this is the best argument you have for consciousness being able to exist without a body/brain?

 

If so, if we show that you are wrong, will you concede your point, or just move on to another one and ignore the failings of this one?

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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jcgadfly wrote:Paisley

jcgadfly wrote:

Paisley wrote:
It's called "promissory materialism." You don't have a materialistic explanation that accounts for all the aspects reported in NDEs and yet you are "promising" us that a materialistic explanation is forthcoming. The promise is based on a faith-commitment to materialism (even though there is evidence to suggest that the mind and the brain are not identical).

1. Polkinghorne's objections are pretty much due to his Christianity. Dual aspect monism is watered down dualism as deism is watered down theism. Following polytheistic religions leads to all kinds of foolishness.

Who is discussing John Polkinghorne's objections or dual-aspect monism? (Incidentally, dual-aspect monism is not technically dualism. But now I am digressing.)

jcgadfly wrote:

2. Still waiting on you to produce peer-reviewed evidence...

There is a scientific and academic published peer-reviewed journal on NDEs (e.g. "Journal of Near-Death Studies" edited by Kenneth Ring).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journal_of_Near-Death_Studies

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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The Flying Spaghetti Monster

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

Paisley wrote:

It's called "promissory materialism." You don't have a materialistic explanation that accounts for all the aspects reported in NDEs and yet you are "promising" us that a materialistic explanation is forthcoming. The promise is based on a faith-commitment to materialism (even though there is evidence to suggest that the mind and the brain are not identical).

First of all, you can word it anyway you want but I'm not "promising" anything. Secondly, there is a biological explanation. People often say "sure" when they're too occupied to pull up research debunking an issue of only partial interest. I'm not going to reserach this topic for you, and don't feel passionate enough about it to put forth an effort. My intention was to share what I thought was directly related. Also, biological evidence is the backbone for any medical unknown. It has nothing to do with having faith or making a commitment to the explanation when real scientists know it's not about wishing or hoping, but simply waiting until the answer presents itself. Only religious people need faith in explaining what they don't understand.

I have already done my research. Thank you very much. And that you are not willing to do yours clearly demonstrates that you're not in a position to debate this topic.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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crazymonkie wrote:The Flying

crazymonkie wrote:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

How about you try to tie in this whole "consciousness existing outside the body," bullshit you began this thread with?

 

He can't and won't. You're new here, so I'll tell you now: Paisley never defines his terms, merely asserts that dualism has a 'priveleged' position in epistemology. Why? Well, because we have a subjective 'inner world' of course!

Science began in the milieu of a dualistic framework. That's not speculation. That's not conjecture. That's historical fact. And hitherto, no evidence (NONE, NADA) has ever been produced to establish beyond all reproach that mental phenomena are physical. So, yes...until proven otherwise...dualism has a privileged metaphysical position because it is based on our first-person experience of the world.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Nikolaj wrote:Paisley

Nikolaj wrote:

Paisley wrote:

Subdi Visions wrote:

Incidentally, I never claimed to be an intellectually sophisticated atheist. I'm barely above mouth breathing idiot.

Agreed.

By the way, thanks for the honesty. This allows me to direct my time and energy elsewhere.

Now come on. Was that really neccesary?

Why don't we all lay off the with all the douchebaggery?

What exactly are you objecting to here? That I simply agreed with his own self-assessment?

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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KSMB wrote:I have never

KSMB wrote:

I have never really understood why so called NDEs are taken so seriously by such a large number of people. I mean, people are quite unreliable at assessing reality as it is, but we are supposed to believe them more when their brains are deprived of oxygen?!

They are taken seriously becasue there is no material explanation how the mind fucntions independently of a nonfunctional brain.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Paisley wrote:The Flying

Paisley wrote:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

Paisley wrote:

It's called "promissory materialism." You don't have a materialistic explanation that accounts for all the aspects reported in NDEs and yet you are "promising" us that a materialistic explanation is forthcoming. The promise is based on a faith-commitment to materialism (even though there is evidence to suggest that the mind and the brain are not identical).

First of all, you can word it anyway you want but I'm not "promising" anything. Secondly, there is a biological explanation. People often say "sure" when they're too occupied to pull up research debunking an issue of only partial interest. I'm not going to reserach this topic for you, and don't feel passionate enough about it to put forth an effort. My intention was to share what I thought was directly related. Also, biological evidence is the backbone for any medical unknown. It has nothing to do with having faith or making a commitment to the explanation when real scientists know it's not about wishing or hoping, but simply waiting until the answer presents itself. Only religious people need faith in explaining what they don't understand.

I have already done my research. Thank you very much. And that you are not willing to do yours clearly demonstrates that you're not in a position to debate this topic.

Considering the fact you cannot adequately defend yourself in a thread you created shows differently.


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Paisley wrote:

KSMB wrote:

I have never really understood why so called NDEs are taken so seriously by such a large number of people. I mean, people are quite unreliable at assessing reality as it is, but we are supposed to believe them more when their brains are deprived of oxygen?!

They are taken seriously becasue there is no material explanation how the mind fucntions independently of a nonfunctional brain.

 

Prove the mind functions independently of a nonfuctional brain then?

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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ClockCat wrote:Paisley

ClockCat wrote:

Paisley wrote:

They are taken seriously becasue there is no material explanation how the mind fucntions independently of a nonfunctional brain.

Prove the mind functions independently of a nonfuctional brain then?

I have provided evidence in this thread.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Since she was only clinically dead and not dead-dead this proves nada. Brain wave activity can be difficult to monitor in some conditions including lowered body temp.

While you don't find the evidence compelling (big surprise!), others do.

Quote:

This famous near-death experience is considered by many to be proof of the reality of the survival of consciousness after death, and of a life after death.

(source: Wikipedia: Pam Reynolds' NDE)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds%27_NDE

Also, her brain activity was not difficult to monitor. They had placed ear plugs with small speakers in her ears to monitor her brain and during part of the operation she had no brain activity. She had a flat EEG. Moreover, they had completely drained the blood from her brain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds%27_NDE

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Yes you have and no one disputes that people have in some cases these experiences. This does not however support your consciousness ideas that it is separate from the mind or brain as I mentioned. If it were so all humans that experience near death should have this experience. They don't.

What kind of nonsense is this? Just because everyone does not experience an NDE during clinical death does not negate the fact that others do. Moreover, I have provided cases in this thread of veridical NDEs (i.e. NDE cases in which  individuals had out-of-body experiences and were able to make observations that were later confirmed by the medical or hospital staff).

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
 

Paisley wrote:

You stated that you "had no NDE." If you didn't have a near-death experience, then you didn't experience the core "dream." Duh!

I had near death, but no light flashing dreams etc. I was dead for several minutes but was unaware of being so as I was already drugged. Not everyone gets a NDE dream, some get nothing like I did.

If you didn't have an experience (what you are pejoratively referring to as a dream), then you didn't have an NDE. This is not difficult!

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

If this was consciousness separating from the body even if I was drugged I should have experienced the NDE dream.

I have already addressed this (see above).

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

being that many individuals do not have NDE dreams when they clinically die what does that signify?

It signifies that they did not have an NDE. To reiterate: This is not difficult!

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

According to several web sites I found with Google approximately 5% of the US population supposedly has had a NDE. What I can't find are statistics that compare NDEs to Non-NDES. I found a book by PMH Atwater called The Big Book of Near Death Experiences. In promos on google books he claims from 12 to 20% experience it. Do you have data or sources?  How many NDEs occur per 100,000 near deaths?

Dutch cardiologist Pim van Lommel conducted a clinical study and reported that 18% of his patients who suffered cardiac arrest and were successfully resuscitated had an NDE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_Death_Experience

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
 

If the brain and consciousness are as you suggest it should be 100%, but it's not as many are like me and had no NDE when they clinically die. Care to explain or is this simply unknown?

I have already addressed this issue (see above).

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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:o

Paisley wrote:

ClockCat wrote:

Paisley wrote:

They are taken seriously becasue there is no material explanation how the mind fucntions independently of a nonfunctional brain.

Prove the mind functions independently of a nonfuctional brain then?

I have provided evidence in this thread.

 

Oh. Then will you repeat it? I must of missed it.

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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daedalus wrote:NDE, etc are

daedalus wrote:

NDE, etc are old news.   There nothing there, except a few wacko's on the fringe who claim to be studying it.

 

But let me uderstand this correctly, Paisley, are you saying this is the best argument you have for consciousness being able to exist without a body/brain?

 

If so, if we show that you are wrong, will you concede your point, or just move on to another one and ignore the failings of this one?

What have you shown?

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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digitalbeachbum wrote:While

digitalbeachbum wrote:

While I personally have never had an NDE I have experienced a ADC (After Death Experience) which I've yet to scientifically explain.

I was in China, 12 hours ahead of Florida, when during my sleep I was visited by my grand mother. From what I remember of the event was my grandmother's hands and a feeling or thought that "every thing was ok".

After review of the event I called home and was told my grand mother was ok, but I was being lied to by my family as to not upset my vacation.

The following evening the same event took place and I called home again the next day only to be lied to again. My girlfriend then tried to lie also, but I was able to get the truth out of her.

When I returned from China I was told the truth and that she had passed at or around 1:30pm, which would have been the time I was asleep in China.

I was told by my mother that at the time of my grandmother's passing she was asking for me.

I'm not sure that ADE is the formal term, but I have had a similar experience with the death of my grandmother. This is fairly common.

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I am not a believer in "god", nor a "creator". I do not believe in any religion and this event has not changed my position on such subjects or ideas. I am a rational thinking individual. I observe and question that which I experience.

I have no doubts that in some form or fashion there is no end to thought only a transformation from one form to another. Such an idea stems from observations in nature. All things are born and all things decay and all things are recycled.

"There is no end to thought only a transformation from one form to another?" <= That smacks of pantheism.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Di66en6ion wrote:Paisley

Di66en6ion wrote:

Paisley wrote:

I have provided a documented case of a veridical NDE and OBE in the OP. Also, I have provided other documented cases. Whether you acknowledge this or not does not change the fact.

No, you didn't even read what I wrote. Link ONE case study where people could see surroundings OUTSIDE of their field of view during an OBE/NDE. Someone saying they saw something on the floor and a nurse agreeing with them is not evidence.

Yeah, an individual making an observation that was later confirmed by someone on the medical or hospital staff does qualify as evidence. Moreover, the fact that an individual had any kind of experience (even if it were purely illusory) does not explain how consciousness is able to function in light of the fact that the brain is nonfunctional.

Di66en6ion wrote:

Show us an article where controlled conditions were put into place. There are some reports of doctors doing exactly that to real OBE/NDE patients with no results

Yes, there is presently an ongoing study of NDEs involving cardiac arrest patients being led by the British cardiologist Sam Parnia. However, the study is a three year experiment and the scientists will not publish the results until the experiement has been completed. Imagine that! So, your assertion that there are no results is actually misleading.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead