Electoral Collage Vote

Tapey
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Electoral Collage Vote

  

Can someone please explain the wisdom of the Electoral Collage Vote in America? What is it? Why is it better than how other countries do it, what are the benefits? Why not just use the popular vote for the president like nearly everywhere else in the world?

 

 

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pauljohntheskeptic
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Tapey wrote:  Can someone

Tapey wrote:

  

Can someone please explain the wisdom of the Electoral Collage Vote in America? What is it? Why is it better than how other countries do it, what are the benefits? Why not just use the popular vote for the president like nearly everywhere else in the world?

 

1)There is no wisdom to the Electoral College vote.

The original idea was the electors were selected by the popular vote in each state. They are not obligated to vote per the outcome by law and can change. Traditionally the electors vote for the winning canidate for whom they were chosen as they are supporters of the candidate not freelancers. Each state gets 1 vote for each senator, and one for each representative. The electors are not these people however but are selected from the winning candidates supporters. Most states are winner take all, and 2 divide based on proportional ratios such as Nebraska and Maine.

2)It's not better

3)There are no benefits.

4)Damn good question, why not just use the popular vote. If so, Bush would have lost.

The wiki article is pretty good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College

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Tapey
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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Tapey wrote:

  

Can someone please explain the wisdom of the Electoral Collage Vote in America? What is it? Why is it better than how other countries do it, what are the benefits? Why not just use the popular vote for the president like nearly everywhere else in the world?

 

1)There is no wisdom to the Electoral College vote.

The original idea was the electors were selected by the popular vote in each state. They are not obligated to vote per the outcome by law and can change. Traditionally the electors vote for the winning canidate for whom they were chosen as they are supporters of the candidate not freelancers. Each state gets 1 vote for each senator, and one for each representative. The electors are not these people however but are selected from the winning candidates supporters. Most states are winner take all, and 2 divide based on proportional ratios such as Nebraska and Maine.

2)It's not better

3)There are no benefits.

4)Damn good question, why not just use the popular vote. If so, Bush would have lost.

The wiki article is pretty good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College

Hmm so basically people vote for who they want the electoral collage voters to vote for, but they are not obligated to vote for that person? In other words the people of America do not chose thier own president, but rather a select few  indiviuals do? Is that correct? If so that is really messed up

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Yup it's a pretty fucked up

Yup it's a pretty fucked up system, but when you only have 2 choices anyway... it doesn't seem to make a huge difference.

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Tapey
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FreeHugMachine wrote:Yup

FreeHugMachine wrote:

Yup it's a pretty fucked up system, but when you only have 2 choices anyway... it doesn't seem to make a huge difference.

Still for a country that shouts yay democracy maybe America should try practising it? Democracy goes past the right to vote, your vote should mean something, it shouldn't be opitional that the people follow it. Just btw two parties may not be the best but it is better than what we have in south africa,  Here the Anc gets roughly 70% of the vote. The offitial opisitions has 16% of the vote. Real healthy situation there  For all practial perposes we are a one party state. The ANC can change the constitution any time it wants. 

 

Btw wednesday is our election, I am hopefull that it will change, but im not holding my breath

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pauljohntheskeptic
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Tapey wrote: Hmm so

Tapey wrote:

 

Hmm so basically people vote for who they want the electoral collage voters to vote for, but they are not obligated to vote for that person? In other words the people of America do not chose thier own president, but rather a select few  indiviuals do? Is that correct? If so that is really messed up

Yes it a relic of our past that is still with us.

Those that do not follow the required vote of their state are called "faithless electors", see wiki link I gave you.

No faithless elector has ever changed the outcome of an election.

Several presidents have been elected by a majority in the electoral college though they lost the popular vote:

1876 Rutherford Hayes became president though he lost the popular vote.

1888 President Cleveland lost his re-election to Benjamin Harrison though Cleveland won the popular vote.

2000 Gore lost to Bush though he won the popular vote. What a world changing event that was.

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Tapey
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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

 

2000 Gore lost to Bush though he won the popular vote. What a world changing event that was.

It just shows the flaws of it. If more Americans want someone as president what excuse can be made for him not being president? It really goes against common sense.

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Its also the same system

Its also the same system that every other democracy (and yes America is a democracy) uses in the world.

People elect local representatives they alert whoever is in charge (variation happen of course but its how it works in the UK, Canada not sure about Australia)

Pre the modern telecoms era perhaps counting everyone votes was difficult dont know?

 

 


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 mrjonno wrote:Its also the

 

mrjonno wrote:

Its also the same system that every other democracy (and yes America is a democracy) uses in the world.

People elect local representatives they alert whoever is in charge (variation happen of course but its how it works in the UK, Canada not sure about Australia)

Pre the modern telecoms era perhaps counting everyone votes was difficult dont know?

 

Umm no it just isn't in every other democracy. im not saying america isn't a democracy but I am saying it isn't very democratic. In pretty much every country the popular vote determines the president. In south Africa we have local elections witch has no effect on the national ones. Then we have provential, witch has no effect on the national, Then we have the national witch decides the president and parlament except we vote for a party not a person. Well yes long ago it was difficult to count votes........ you may have noticed it is not long ago right now. Besides they would still have to count the votes to decide who the electoral collage people would vote for right? 

wikipedia quote

Quote:
The United States is the only current example of an indirectly elected executive president
 

It does mention some other countries use a simalar system but I think this is relavant.

 

All im saying what excuse can be made that when more people vote for someone he shouldn't be president? It has happend, why shouldn't he be president? More people want him as president.

 

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mrjonno
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Sorry Tapey didnt understand

Sorry Tapey didnt understand your comment regarding South Africa.

 

Do you elect members of parliament who then choose the president (UK, US, Canadian style)

or do you directly elect a president who wins if he/she gets 50.000001% of the vote


Tapey
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mrjonno wrote:Sorry Tapey

mrjonno wrote:

Sorry Tapey didnt understand your comment regarding South Africa.

 

Do you elect members of parliament who then choose the president (UK, US, Canadian style)

or do you directly elect a president who wins if he/she gets 50.000001% of the vote

aaah, well in south africa it works like this, we vote for parties in south africa. Never people, oviously who ever the presidential candidate they put forward effects how people vote though, but we do not vote for the actual person. So at a national level if the ANC get 70% of the vote 70% of parlament seats goes to the ANC and the ANC gets the presidency, tbh im not sure if the new parlament votes for the president but it is irrelavant as the people who win would just vote there candidate in anyway, though im pretty sure the winners just get the presidency. So the presidency and parlament is one vote for us. to win by your self you need 50% + 1 vote. However because we have a multiparty system say the ANC got 49% of the total vote the other parties could form an allience and from 51% of the vote and keep the ANC out of the presidency, even though the ANC got the highest amount of votes out of any party. In this situation normally the party in the allience with the highest amount of votes will take the presidency but  will give minister positions to the others. It has flaws but it does the job sort of.... 

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mrjonno
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Ah I get it now proportional

Ah I get it now proportional representation of the parliament which then selects the president (usually the biggest party but possibly a smaller party of a larger coalition)

PR is an interesting system , you get power at a party level proportional to its electoral powerbase but with the disadvantage that you don't get a personally elected representative.

Thats the general continental European style of election, I assume you inherited that from the Dutch as the UK has never had PR bar Scottish elections.

Point is thats still a style of electoral college same as in the US, UK etc


Tapey
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mrjonno wrote:Ah I get it

mrjonno wrote:

Ah I get it now proportional representation of the parliament which then selects the president (usually the biggest party but possibly a smaller party of a larger coalition)

PR is an interesting system , you get power at a party level proportional to its electoral powerbase but with the disadvantage that you don't get a personally elected representative.

Thats the general continental European style of election, I assume you inherited that from the Dutch as the UK has never had PR bar Scottish elections.

Point is thats still a style of electoral college same as in the US, UK etc

But the thing that makes the different it is the popular vote does it. We directly choses who we want to rule. The majority of people will always get the office. Well it may aswell be a personally elected representatuive, as we know who the party will put there. The biggest problem wih it is, say a the winning party doesn't like the president they put there. they can just change him. If the party recalls him he is no longer president. Being the president he could stay, but it would involve the abuse of power.

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mrjonno
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To be honest I would rather

To be honest I would rather vote for a set of policies than just an individual (who can't implement them on his own anyway). If you vote for policies you dont get the awful American situation where you vote for 'someone you would like to have lunch with'. Obama while seeming to be more elite than his predecessor (elite is a good thing in my opinion) still seems to have got an awful lot of votes just based on his personality.

I think the main difference between the US and the UK(sounds like SA is similar) is the electoral college isnt the legislature which makes the Prime Minister/President in theory a lot weaker through I think in practice it gives him a lot more power indirectly (if the Prime Minister falls the reality is usually be not always so does the legislature)