So, it's Easter again tomorrow...

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So, it's Easter again tomorrow...

...And I'm just curious:

 

Does it ever at all bother any of the Christian visitors here that they're religion just bastardizes Pagan holidays and pretends that they represent significant historical events for the church while not actually having any roots in said church whatsoever? I mean, Easter, Christmas... I'm always baffled when I hear religious lobbying groups lamenting about the 'secularization' of 'their' holidays... when, in actuality, they were secular to begin with.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote:...And

Kevin R Brown wrote:

...And I'm just curious:

 

Does it ever at all bother any of the Christian visitors here that they're religion just bastardizes Pagan holidays and pretends that they represent significant historical events for the church while not actually having any roots in said church whatsoever? I mean, Easter, Christmas... I'm always baffled when I hear religious lobbying groups lamenting about the 'secularization' of 'their' holidays... when, in actuality, they were secular to begin with.

I'd be disapointed if a major christian tenet wasn't hypocritical at its roots.

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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I'm just happy my wife will

I'm just happy my wife will finally quit her phony fast.


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Insert Question:What do you

Insert Question:

What do you guys reply to people that say "Happy Easter"?  (if anything at all)


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I'll be cleaning the house,

I'll be cleaning the house, as I usually do on Sundays.


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How can a rational person

How can a rational person actually believe that dead human flesh survives rigor mortis? Their club logo is a torture device.

God sacrificed himself to himself so you and I wouldn't have to face his wrath? This is not the makings of a benevolent being. This is the behavior of a stalker or abusive spouse, "LOVE ME OR SUFFER MY PUNISHMENT"

Regardless of the pagan roots, this is not anything I find moral, much less reality.

Happy dead man on a stick day, in any case.

 

 

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YAY! Take the quiz!!  1.

YAY! Take the quiz!!

 

 

1. Who first came to the tomb on Sunday morning?
  a. one woman (John 20:1)
  b. two women (Matt. 28:1)
  c. three women (Mark 16:1)
  d. more than three women (Luke 23:55-56; 24:1,10)

2. She (they) came
  a. while it was still dark (Matt. 28:1; John 20:1)
  b. after the sun had risen (Mark 16:2)

3. The woman (women) came to the tomb
  a. to anoint the body of Jesus with spices (Mark 16:1-2; Luke 24:1)
  b. just to look at it (Matt. 28:1; John 20:1)

4. The women had obtained the spices
  a. on Friday before sunset (Luke 23:54-56; 24:1)
  a. after sunset on Saturday (Mark 16:1)

5. The first visitor(s) was/were greeted by
  a. an angel (Matt. 28:2-5)
  b. a young man (Mark 16:5)
  c. two men (Luke 24:4)
  d. no one (John 20:1-2)

6. The greeter(s)
  a. was sitting on the stone outside the tomb (Matt 28:2)
  b. was sitting inside the tomb (Mark 16:5)
  c. were standing inside the tomb (Luke 24:3-4)

7. After finding the tomb empty, the woman/women
  a. ran to tell the disciples (Matt. 28:7-8; Mark 16:10; Luke 24:9; John 20:2)
  b. ran away and said nothing to anyone (Mark 16:Cool

8. The risen Jesus first appeared to
  a. Mary Magdalene alone (John 20:14; Mark 16:9)
  b. Cleopas and another disciple (Luke 24:13,15,18)
  c. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (Matt. 28:1,9)
  d. Cephas (Peter) alone (1 Cor. 15:4-5; Luke 24:34)

9. Jesus first appeared
  a. somewhere between the tomb and Jerusalem (Matt. 28:8-9)
  b. Just outside the tomb (John 20:11-14)
  c. in Galilee - some 80 miles (130 Km) north of Jerusalem (Mark 16:6-7)
  d. on the road to Emmaus - Miles (11 Km) west of Jerusalem (Luke 24:13-15)
  e. we are not told where (Mark 16:9; 1 Cor. 15:4-5)

10. The disciples were to see Jesus first
  a. in Galilee (Mark 16:7; Matt. 28:7,10,16)
  b. in Jerusalem (Mark 16:14; Luke 24:33,36; John 20:19; Acts 1:4)

11. The disciples were told that they would meet the risen Jesus in Galilee
  a. by the women, who had been told by an angel of the Lord, then by Jesus
       himself after the resurrection (Matt. 28:7-10; Mark 16:7)
  b. by Jesus himself, before the crucifiction (Mark 26:32)

12. The risen Jesus
  a. wanted to be touched (John 20:27)
  b. did not want to be touched (John 20:17)
  c. did not mind being touched (Matt. 28:9-10)

13. Jesus ascended to Heaven
  a. the same day that he was resurrected (Mark 16:9,19; Luke 24:13,28-36,50-51)
  b. forty days after the resurrection (Acts 1:3,9)
  c. we are not told that he ascended to Heaven at all (Matt. 28:10, 16-20;
       John 21:25; the original Gospel of Mark ends at 16:Cool

14. The disciples received the Holy Spirit
  a. 50 days after the resurrection (Acts 1:3,9)
  b. in the evening of the same day as the resurrection (John 20:19-22)

15. The risen Jesus
  a. was recognized by those who saw him (Matt. 28:9; Mark 16:9-10)
  b. was not always recognizable (Mark 16:12; Luke 24:15-16,31,36-37; John 20:14-15)

16. The risen Jesus
  a. was physical (Matt. 28:9; Luke 24:41-43; John 20:27)
  b. was not physical (Mark 16:9,12,14; Luke 24:15-16,31,36-37; John 20:19,26; 1 Cor. 15:5-8)

17. The risen Jesus was seen by the disciples
  a. presumably only once (Matt. 28:16-17)
  b. first by two of them, later by all eleven (Mark 16:12-14; Luke 24:13-15,33,36-51)
  c. three times (John 20:19,26; 21:1,14)
  d. many times (Acts 1:3)

18. When Jesus appeared to the disciples
  a. there were eleven of them (Matt. 28:16-17; Luke 24:33,36)
  b. twelve of them (1 Cor. 15:5)


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What, you guys aren't doing

What, you guys aren't doing your War on Easter tomorrow? Anyone going to dump Jesus Mysticism pamphlets in Church pews on a Sunday morning?

I have to say, I respect the RRS. But the War on Easter is offensive. Leave the Christians alone on their holiday. Not to mention that The War on Easter looks a lot like Atheist evangelism to me.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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Christos wrote:What, you

Christos wrote:

What, you guys aren't doing your War on Easter tomorrow? Anyone going to dump Jesus Mysticism pamphlets in Church pews on a Sunday morning?

I have to say, I respect the RRS. But the War on Easter is offensive. Leave the Christians alone on their holiday. Not to mention that The War on Easter looks a lot like Atheist evangelism to me.

don't have any mythicist pamphlets but I'll wait on the War on Easter until you lot stop interjecting your God into legislation.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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There are some Christians

There are some Christians who object to the co-option of pagan holidays like Easter: www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn63/easter.htm.

So long as they don't want to make too much fuss about other people celebrating the original point of this holiday with the appropriate eggs and bunnies...

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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I'm not a Christian jcgadfly

I'm not a Christian jcgadfly


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Actually, yesterday

Actually, yesterday was Easter according to the gospel of John. Since it is a gospel, it must be the truth.

 

John 18:39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?

 

19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

 

19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

 

19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

 

20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

 

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Christos wrote:I'm not a

Christos wrote:

I'm not a Christian jcgadfly

Apologies.

What sort of theist are you (don't wish to make that mistake again)?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Quote:But the War on Easter

Quote:
But the War on Easter is offensive.

That's too bad.

 

Quote:
Leave the Christians alone on their holiday.

No thank you.

Christians leave far too much spare footwear laying around if you leave them alone for the sake of the status quo.

 

 

...See?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Christos wrote:What,

Christos wrote:
What, you guys aren't doing your War on Easter tomorrow? Anyone going to dump Jesus Mysticism pamphlets in Church pews on a Sunday morning?

 

I have to say, I respect the RRS. But the War on Easter is offensive. Leave the Christians alone on their holiday. Not to mention that The War on Easter looks a lot like Atheist evangelism to me.

 

Well, for my part, I really don't much care for the whole “war on...” thing.

 

AFAIK, it started with the war on drugs, which I have strong negative feelings on that are reserved for a thread on that topic. Just say that it is stupid by design.

 

However, once that got started, it opened up the idea of other perpetual “war on...” ideas. It doesn't matter if it is the war on x-mas, the war on terrorism or the war on people who roller skate on the interstates against the flow of traffic. They are all a bad idea.

 

That much being said, the war on x-mas/easter is not even one that was ever declared by those who could possibly have waged it. The first time that I heard of it, it came from Bill O'Reilly but I really suspect that he was just repeating something that he heard from another source without crediting whomever said it first.

 

Personally, I think that everyone on this ever smaller planet would do well to learn about each other's cultures and values. And honestly, it does not matter if I agree with someone else on some particular point so much as I get to know why they feel a certain way.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

As an example, several years ago I was low level staff on a forum that had an absolute “no religion” rule. I had no actual tools to enforce anything but I was responsible for keeping threads sane anyway. Whatever.

 

Well, someone started a thread asking basically how they could know when the full moon was above the horizon if it was cloudy that night. Well, that is a pretty basic astronomical question and a few people offered what they had to help the guy out. Fair enough there.

 

Then someone asked why this was important information.

 

Well, the OP answered that it would help him to know when to break his fast at the end of Ramadan. In response, lots of people went over the top because he had dared to start a thread about religion. When I saw that, I went fucking nuts all over the thread and basically slammed everyone who was going nuts over the matter.

 

The OP had not, to my assessment, started a thread on why Islam is automatically the best or only religion that everyone should have. He asked for some help on how to figure out what he had to do to be a conforming member of the group.

 

Eventually, it came out that the rising of the moon signaled the beginning of the eid al fatir holiday, which happened to fall around the end of December that year. The OP called it the “Muslim Christmas” because it involves an exchange of gifts.

 

Well, I googled the concept and it seems that it is the culmination of the Muslim faith, sort of like Easter finishes the Christian faith. So if it is anything, it is the Muslim Easter. After that, I started a thing where every year, I would make a thread for saying “eid mubarak” to our Muslim forum members.

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Christos wrote:What, you

Christos wrote:

What, you guys aren't doing your War on Easter tomorrow? Anyone going to dump Jesus Mysticism pamphlets in Church pews on a Sunday morning?

 

 

Don't they do that every Sunday?

 

 

Quote:

I have to say, I respect the RRS.

I don't

 

 

Quote:

But the War on Easter is offensive.

 

I wouldn't go so far as label it offensive. If somebody gets offended by it, then that somebody needs to do some re-thinking.

 

 

Quote:

Leave the Christians alone on their holiday. Not to mention that The War on Easter looks a lot like Atheist evangelism to me.

 

But if somebody says "Happy Easter" then surely that is the sign of the oncoming moral decration of our society.

 

To be fair, saying "Happy Easter" is about as stupid as getting offended when somebody says it.

 

 

 


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Quote:But if somebody says

Quote:
But if somebody says "Happy Easter" then surely that is the sign of the oncoming moral decration of our society.

 

To be fair, saying "Happy Easter" is about as stupid as getting offended when somebody says it.

I don't recall stating that I 'got offended' when somebody says, "Happy Easter," nor do I recall suggesting that those two words would somehow spell the doom of civilization.

 

It's perhaps noteworthy, though, that Christians posit that Easter commemorates the torturing unto death of a man via crucifixion; it doesn't strike me as the height of morality to festively celebrate the tortuous demise of someone.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote:I don't

Kevin R Brown wrote:

I don't recall stating that I 'got offended' when somebody says, "Happy Easter," nor do I recall suggesting that those two words would somehow spell the doom of civilization.

 

It's perhaps noteworthy, though, that Christians posit that Easter commemorates the torturing unto death of a man via crucifixion; it doesn't strike me as the height of morality to festively celebrate the tortuous demise of THE ONE TRUE GOD.

Fixed!  (who could take comfort in a suicidal/homicidal god)

 

I don't get offended when people say "Happy Easter" but I think it does the speaker good to be wittily reminded that not everyone celebrates any form of Easter.  My usual response is "You too" since I'm not really out to make people feel bad. I know they don't mean to offend.


 


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There is a War on Easter?

There is a War on Easter? What is happening in this war? Are people trying to end the celebration of Easter or something? Is merely pointing out that Easter is a pagan holiday that was stolen by the Christians waging war on Easter?

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Jormungander wrote:There is

Jormungander wrote:

There is a War on Easter? What is happening in this war? Are people trying to end the celebration of Easter or something? Is merely pointing out that Easter is a pagan holiday that was stolen by the Christians waging war on Easter?

But the mere existence of Atheists is an assault on Christianity itself, according to the mind-set of many believers, so actually pointing out things like that amounts to outright war...

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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

 

 

...See?

I'm assuming those are the shoes of Holocaust victims. Holding Christianity responsible for the Holocaust is as dumb as saying that Atheism is responsible for the Great Purge in Russia.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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jcgadfly wrote:What sort of

jcgadfly wrote:

What sort of theist are you (don't wish to make that mistake again)?

Don't worry about it. My username is misleading. I believe in God.....and I respect aspects of Christianity (as well as Buddhism or Judaism, etc.) I study religion in college, but I can't say that I'm very religious

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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Kevin R Brown wrote: I

Kevin R Brown wrote:

 I don't recall stating that I 'got offended' when somebody says, "Happy Easter," nor do I recall suggesting that those two words would somehow spell the doom of civilization.

 

Hey, but first we're saying "Happy Easter", then we're sending people into gas huts!

 

Or of course you just happened to decide on the picture?

 

Christos wrote:

I'm assuming those are the shoes of Holocaust victims. Holding Christianity responsible for the Holocaust is as dumb as saying that Atheism is responsible for the Great Purge in Russia.

 

It also ignores the fact that Martin Bormann was a raging anti-Christian and atheist.


 

Bormann wrote:

When we [National Socialists] speak of belief in God, we do not mean, like the naive Christians and their spiritual exploiters, a man-like being sitting around somewhere in the universe. The force governed by natural law by which all these countless planets move in the universe, we call omnipotence or God. The assertion that this universal force can trouble itself about the destiny of each individual being, every smallest earthly bacillus, can be influenced by so-called prayers or other surprising things, depends upon a requisite dose of naivety or else upon shameless professional self-interest

 

Bormann wrote:

National Socialist and Christian conceptions are incompatible. The Christian churches build upon men's ignorance; by contrast N[ational Socialism] rests upon scientific foundations.

 

 

 


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Bormann wrote:by contrast

Bormann wrote:

by contrast N[ational Socialism] rests upon scientific foundations.

Ha.....not!


 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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jcgadfly wrote:I'm just

jcgadfly wrote:

I'm just happy my wife will finally quit her phony fast.

So what's phony about it?

 


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Christos wrote:Kevin R Brown

Christos wrote:

Kevin R Brown wrote:

 

 

...See?

I'm assuming those are the shoes of Holocaust victims. Holding Christianity responsible for the Holocaust is as dumb as saying that Atheism is responsible for the Great Purge in Russia.

Labels of religion or lack of belief miss the point that gulibility will lead a lemming of any stripe off of a cliff. It just so happened for Hitler he played the Christian card to justify genocide. But, it wasn't much of a strech because the OT has god allowing mass genocide in the flood and infantiside in trying to kill Jesus.  This same gulibility got 19 hijackers to slam planes into buildings because they thought they were going to get some magical pussy in an afterlife.

If your statement is that all Christians are not Inquisitors, I agree. Not all Christians are responsible for the dark ages, genocide of native Americans or Slavery, I agree. But, the fact that there were words printed in a work of fiction for zealots to use as a weapon, and the coddling of non-violent club members of zealots in their midst, allowed those words to be used as weapons.

 

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Quote:I'm assuming those are

Quote:
I'm assuming those are the shoes of Holocaust victims. Holding Christianity responsible for the Holocaust is as dumb as saying that Atheism is responsible for the Great Purge in Russia.

Two words:

Martin Luther

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Quote:Or of course you just

Quote:
Or of course you just happened to decide on the picture?

No, I did not.

 

Mystery Person Number 1 wrote:
I also want to refer here very frankly to a very difficult matter. We can now very openly talk about this among ourselves, and yet we will never discuss this publicly. Just as we did not hesitate on June 30, 1934, to perform our duty as ordered and put comrades who had failed up against the wall and execute them, we also never spoke about it, nor will we ever speak about it. (reference to the Night of the Long Knives) Let us thank God that we had within us enough self-evident fortitude never to discuss it among us, and we never talked about it. Every one of us was horrified, and yet every one clearly understood that we would do it next time, when the order is given and when it becomes necessary. I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, to the extermination of the Jewish people. This is something that is easily said: "The Jewish people will be exterminated", says every Party member, "this is very obvious, it is in our program — elimination of the Jews, extermination, a small matter." And then they turn up, the upstanding 80 million Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. They say the others are all pigs, but this particular one is a splendid Jew. (compare with Rosenstrasse protest) But none has observed it, endured it. Most of you here know what it means when 100 corpses lie next to each other, when there are 500 or when there are 1,000. To have endured this and at the same time to have remained a decent person — with exceptions due to human weaknesses — has made us tough, and is a glorious chapter that has not and will not be spoken of. Because we know how difficult it would be for us if we will had Jews as secret saboteurs, agitators and rabble rousers in every city, what with the bombings, with the burden and with the hardships of the war. If the Jews were still part of the German nation, we would most likely arrive now at the state we were at in 1916/17. (as in the Dolchstosslegende).

...Any idea who Mystery Person Number 1 is, Alison?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote:Two

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Two words:

Martin Luther

 

 

Don't recall Luther associating Jews with the inferior race and involved in the Communist plot against he glorious national pillar of Germany. Musta missed that part

 

 

Quote:

...Any idea who Mystery Person Number 1 is, Alison?

 

Himmler[sp?] head of the SS IIRC. 

 

 

 By sheer coincedence, he started that speech with "Happy Easter" and after it he hid chocolate eggs in the Reichstag[sp?] for Hitler  and Bormann to find.

 

This was what you were talking about right?

 

 

Should we send those who celebrate Easter to Katyn instead?

 

 

 

 

 


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Quote:and involved in the

Quote:

and involved in the Communist plot against he glorious national pillar of Germany.

Well, communism didn't exist in Martin Luther's time, but...

Quote:

Don't recall Luther associating Jews with the inferior race

Luther's virulent hatred of Judaism was grounded in religion, not race. The Nazis were different. Luther was interested in forced conversion of the Jew by pain of death. The Nazi policy was to exterminate anyone with Jewish roots regardless of their religious beliefs. Luther wanted to wipe out the Jewish faith, the Nazis wanted to wipe out the Jewish people. Nonetheless, it is clear that Luther exerted a great influence on German anti-Semitism right through to the Nazi era, where Von den Jüden und iren Lügen would often be displayed prominently at Nazi rallies.

Well, the following is taken from

Martin Luther wrote:

The Jews...are a brood of vipers and children of the devil

...[The following was an eight point plan outlined by Luther to get rid of the Jews]

  1. "First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. ..."
  2. "Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. ..."
  3. "Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. ..."
  4. "Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. ..."
  5. "Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. ..."
  6. "Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them. ... Such money should now be used in ... the following [way]... Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed [a certain amount]..."
  7. "Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow... For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants."
  8. "If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews' blasphemy and not share in their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country" and "we must drive them out like mad dogs."

This is extracted from Luther's virulent tract Von den Jüden und iren Lügen.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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deludedgod wrote:Luther's

deludedgod wrote:

Luther's virulent hatred of Judaism was grounded in religion, not race. The Nazis were different.

 

Which was my point. Luther wasn't the source of the Nazi anti-semitism.

 

They Nazis did indeed use Luther's writings as a tool.


 


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Quote:Which was my point.

Quote:
Which was my point. Luther wasn't the source of the Nazi anti-semitism.

Luther was a strong source (through the Christian Lutheran Church) of widespread European anti-semitism, from which the later Nazi 'brand' would spring and be allowed to flourish.

 

Oh, you guessed tbe Mystery speaker correctly! Here, have a treat.

 

Now, then: in his formative years, which religion was Heinrich Himmler indoctrinated into?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote:Luther

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Luther was a strong source (through the Christian Lutheran Church) of widespread European anti-semitism, from which the later Nazi 'brand' would spring and be allowed to flourish.

 

 

Nazis went an awful lot out of their way on the whole inferior race/communist thing.

 

You honestly believe that without Luther, Hitler would have been dumbfounded to find a way to commit his atrocious deeds?

 

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Oh, you guessed tbe Mystery speaker correctly! Here, have a treat.

 

 

I'm not your pet.

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Now, then: in his formative years, which religion was Heinrich Himmler indoctrinated into?

 

Same religion Churchill, and the members of the confessing church and the French Resistence were indoctrinated into.

 

 


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Quote:Nazis went an awful

Quote:
Nazis went an awful lot out of their way on the whole inferior race/communist thing.

Ah, yes. So far out of their way. Hardly a man, woman or child in the free world who didn't risk life and limb attempting to liberate the Hebrews.

 

Quote:
You honestly believe that without Luther, Hitler would have been dumbfounded to find a way to commit his atrocious deeds?

...'Find a way'?

Alison, have you ever even read, "Mein Kampf"? Do you know what the "Dolchstosslegende" is?

 

Yes, frankly, Fascism would've found no roots in the world at all without widespread Christian anti-semitism (or, as apologists insist on 'revising' it, anti-Judaism) coming before it.

Quote:
Same religion Churchill, and the members of the confessing church and the French Resistence were indoctrinated into.

Nice dodge! Sticking out tongue

 

...So, in your opinion, being indoctrinated at an early age into supernatural beliefs (including that Roman Catholic Church's position that Jews would all burn in Hell) had no effect whatsoever on Heinrich's latter beliefs about the world?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote: Yes,

Kevin R Brown wrote:

 

Yes, frankly, Fascism would've found no roots in the world at all without widespread Christian anti-semitism (or, as apologists insist on 'revising' it, anti-Judaism) coming before it.

 

 

So the whole German economy in the shitter and desperate grasp for a form of German nationalism wouldn't have been sufficient?

 

 

For the record Jews, weren't the only race up on the list, IIRC, it also included Slavs and Gypsies, and I don't recall Luther writing about them.

 

 

Quote:

 ..So, in your opinion, being indoctrinated at an early age into supernatural beliefs (including that Roman Catholic Church's position that Jews would all burn in Hell) had no effect whatsoever on Heinrich's latter beliefs about the world?

 

I'm not going to run a psychological analysis on Himmler to determine if the religious up-bringing was the source of the later beliefs or just amplified them.

 

 

 

 


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Quote:So the whole German

Quote:
So the whole German economy in the shitter and desperate grasp for a form of German nationalism wouldn't have been sufficient?

No, it would not have been.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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If someone says "Happy

If someone says "Happy Easter" just pat them on the head and tell them thats a good boy or girl.

 

Then they can scamper off in glee to their hovels to make more babies they can raise in the trailer park to watch NASCAR and buy into FOX NEWS, while wasting any potential income on memorabilia of both and the cheapest alcohol they can find.

 

 

Someone has to make Idiocracy a reality, after all.

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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ClockCat wrote:If someone

ClockCat wrote:

If someone says "Happy Easter" just pat them on the head and tell them thats a good boy or girl.

 

Then they can scamper off in glee to their hovels to make more babies they can raise in the trailer park to watch NASCAR and buy into FOX NEWS, while wasting any potential income on memorabilia of both and the cheapest alcohol they can find.

 

 

Someone has to make Idiocracy a reality, after all.

Wow, that's the definition of a false stereotype right there. Not to say that some Christians (especially in the South) are like your description......but Christianity is very diverse. You need to get out more and meet people.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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When someone says, 'Happy

When someone says, 'Happy Easter!'  I say, 'Happy Easter!'.  What can I say?  I love the chocolate and candy holiday.  A 4 day weekend!  Give me more!  For Good Friday (What's so good abou it? They killed him!) we made a Jesus Died For You cake and made Stone of the Sepulchre cookies (volcano cookies).  I really wanted to cook rabbit, but we had to have turkey because a friend missed our Thanksgiving Feast.  Then we partied for the next 12 hours.  It was another gay weekend.

Umm .... that's all.  You can now return to your tired debate.

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Kevin R Brown wrote:Quote:So

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:
So the whole German economy in the shitter and desperate grasp for a form of German nationalism wouldn't have been sufficient?

No, it would not have been.

 

Then you need to read up on your social psycology.

 

Start with the Milgram experiments.

 

 

ClockCat wrote:

If someone says "Happy Easter" just pat them on the head and tell them thats a good boy or girl.

 

Then they can scamper off in glee to their hovels to make more babies they can raise in the trailer park to watch NASCAR and buy into FOX NEWS, while wasting any potential income on memorabilia of both and the cheapest alcohol they can find.

 

 

Someone has to make Idiocracy a reality, after all.

 

By not saying anything about it, you are merely leaving them to their delusions so that they can later go on and kill Jews.

 

 

 

 


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Quote:Then you need to read

Quote:
Then you need to read up on your social psycology.

Yeah; you claim that you absolutely need a personal automobile because the bogeymen at the bus stop will get you if you attempt to use public transit, but I'm the one who needs further sociology and psychology education.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:
Then you need to read up on your social psycology.

Yeah; you claim that you absolutely need a personal automobile because the bogeymen at the bus stop will get you if you attempt to use public transit, but I'm the one who needs further sociology and psychology education.

 

While you're at it, read up on your logic, that was an ad hom.

 

 


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No, it wa s flippant

No, it wa s flippant criticism of your ability to make good judgments.

 

You have to actually present an argument before it can be dismissed ad hominem, Alison.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote:No, it

Kevin R Brown wrote:

No, it wa s flippant criticism of your ability to make good judgments.

 

You have to actually present an argument before it can be dismissed ad hominem, Alison.

 

I did by mentioning you should start with the Milgram experiments. Instead of adressing that, you resorted to my asocial behaviour, which is irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

 


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And you know that I've

And you know that I've already discussed the Milgrim experiments, Alison. So you were being snarky (as usual), rather than presenting a valid argument.

Moreover, the Milgrim experiments (arguably) demonstrate that humans can/do rather quickly deteriorate into roles of authoritarian/follower when one group is given an arbitrary amount of power over the other; they say absolutely nothing about the sociopolitical outcome of a ruined economy following a long war.

 

On the other hand, if you knew much about the history of Germany, you'd know that it was not somehow 'fated' to become a fascist regime right after WWI. Had Hinderburg maintained control, fascist Germany never would've come into being.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote:And you

Kevin R Brown wrote:

And you know that I've already discussed the Milgrim experiments, Alison.

 

Where?

 

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

 

Moreover, the Milgrim experiments (arguably) demonstrate that humans can/do rather quickly deteriorate into roles of authoritarian/follower when one group is given an arbitrary amount of power over the other; they say absolutely nothing about the sociopolitical outcome of a ruined economy following a long war.

 

 

Milgram conducted the experiments because he wondered how the German soldiers could have possibly followed their commanders orders to kill innocent people.

 

It is rather relevent to the rise of Fascisim, as to why the soldiers followed through with their orders and the citizens backed the Nazi party.

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

On the other hand, if you knew much about the history of Germany, you'd know that it was not somehow 'fated' to become a fascist regime right after WWI. Had Hinderburg maintained control, fascist Germany never would've come into being.

 

I didn't say it was fated. I said that the shitty economy, the German military humiliation in WWI provided the Nazis the tools to play on social psychology which could explain why the Nazi aquired control [a certain Reichstag fire by Communist sabatours perhaps?] and maintained control to conduct their atrocities.

 

 

 


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They were discussed right

They were discussed right here, as well as the more recent study following similar lines and the Stanford Prisoner experiment.

Now, I do have to offer a small apology - I thought that this was also the same conversation you had barged into and had a hissy fit over and started getting catty with Jill in.

Quote:
Milgram conducted the experiments because he wondered how the German soldiers could have possibly followed their commanders orders to kill innocent people.

 

It is rather relevent to the rise of Fascisim, as to why the soldiers followed through with their orders and the citizens backed the Nazi party.

I'm sorry, but while it certainly is relevant to how totalitarianism works, it is not an explanation for how Germany became a Fascist regime. The looking glass of history is our tool for discovering that.

 

EDIT: Oh, and, uh. Alison? Have you been watching a tad too much Alex Jones lately?

While the Nazis certainly did blow the significance of the fire out of proportion and use it as a springboard, it was almost certainly the handiwork of Van der Lubbe. Moreover... what does the Nazi stance against communism have to do with european anti-semitism?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote:They

Kevin R Brown wrote:

They were discussed right [url=http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/16233]here[/url], as well as the more recent study following similar lines and the Stanford Prisoner experiment.

Now, I do have to offer a small apology - I thought that this was also the same conversation you had barged into and had a hissy fit over and started getting catty with Jill in.

 

 

That topic is in FTA.

 

Anywho, your reference to the experiments

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Oh, and in afterthought:

The earlier shock experiment had just under 20 percent of it's participants terminate the shockings of their own volition, while the latter shock experiment had about 30 percent of it's participants do the same. There's your growing atheist population right there, amirite? Sticking out tongue

 

The things observed in Social psychology are the result of human nature, atheists are as likely to succumb to them as Theists are.

 

Quote:

I'm sorry, but while it certainly is relevant to how totalitarianism works, it is not an explanation for how Germany became a Fascist regime. The looking glass of history is our tool for discovering that.

 

 

It's still a piece of the puzzle.

 

Quote:

EDIT: Oh, and, uh. Alison? Have you been watching a tad too much Alex Jones lately?

While the Nazis certainly did blow the significance of the fire out of proportion and use it as a springboard, it was almost certainly the handiwork of Van der Lubbe. Moreover... what does the Nazi stance against communism have to do with european anti-semitism?

 

It has to do with the rise of the Nazis which would be what we are discussing.

 

 

 


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Okay, Alison; I would like

Okay, Alison; I would like to know how much you actually know about this topic before we go further.  I get the feeling it isn't very much.

Could you breifly describe in your own words how it is that Germany went from a democratic republic to a fascist dictatorship?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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The Nazi party was steadly

The Nazi party was steadly gaining support until their take-over in 1933. The support for them stemmed from, like I mentioned before, the shitter economy and Hitler promising a way out and to restore Germany to it's previous glory [it's military and economy was limited by the Treaty of Versaile [sp?] after WWI]

 

In 1933, came the Reischtag fire, in which I mentioned, Hitler blamed on the Communist plot to destroy Germany. This led to Hinderberg [fuck I can't spell German names ] passing the Reischtag fire degree.

 

The Nazis however, did NOT have the majority in parliment, which was remedied by the 1933 elections [soon after the fire] and surprise surprise, the Nazis offered the citizens a way to oppress the destructive Communists and return Germany to a glourious state, lending them the victory they desired with free reign compliments to the fire degree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Okay... Alison, take this

Okay... Alison, take this however you want, but this is an area you're clearly not ready to debate in. I don't mean that in a mean-spirited way this time. You really missed a lot of crucial points, and mentioned one (the Reichstag fire) that - while widely popularized - was arguably not as tremendously important as innumerous others (Hitler's time with the GWP, for example; or Papen's role in the downfall of Hinderburg's government; or the Dagger Stab Legend).

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940