I am outrages over humanity
Offline I didn't know if I should post this here, but after reading todays news I suddenly am trembling with rage.
Some time ago there was a video circulating the internet, where some fucktards beaten and killed a woman.
Warning: You can watch it here, but I honestly suggest not to.
Poslednij raz
Uploaded by egyduxa
I was outraged when I first saw this video and thought that every single person who was there should be executed, no questions asked. But apparently some people envy it, because we got a copycats. And guess who? Two 14-year olds.
I don't want to translate whole article now (translation with google translater: translate.google.co.uk/translate), so long story short:
Apparently the two 14-year olds been picking on homeless people for some time already. It seems like they began it because of that video.
The victim was 51 year, homeless. They invited another 12 year old to show him the beaten victim and then killed him with a brick like in a video in front of a 12year old, threatening not to tell anyone.
What got me most is the fucktard law in my country. Apparently maximum sentence they could get is 10 years.
It wouldn't be so bad if not for a fact that it isn't the first time. Like a year ago, several 12-year olds drowned another 12-year old. Under law they are immune so they got no real punishment.
Or few years ago 14 and 15 year olds set a homeless on fire. (Not sure what sentence they got)
So lets get to the conclusion: what the fuck is happening with the children? the school is one of the most dangerous place. is this normal? i'd rather go against a grown up criminal with a gun, than against a bunch of stupid kids, at least grown up thinks a little and wont act so stupid.
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The vid has been disabled. I won't speculate on why.
We need to start spanking kids again. All these idiots claiming it hurts them are literally idiot hippies without a clue. Pain is the single greatest motivator in human knowledge. I was spanked a few times as a kid, and it never did me any harm. It was corrective punishment. I never heard of anyone getting spanked and having it cause them harm. People are so quick to scream child abuse whenever a child sheds a tear. Bullshit. A beating is child abuse. A spanking is corrective punishment. And no, time outs are not effective. They are the familial replacement for prison, which has long been proven to be worse than useless.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I hope you're being ironic, considering the content of the video.
There is no evidence that spanking is effective when compared to modern parenting practices without spanking. It engenders the idea that might makes right, that children are not deserving of the same protections as adults (i.e. assault), obedience to authoritarianism, and that violence is a justified measure for resolving conflict and/or correction. We don't use corporal punishment in prisons, so why should we use it on our children?
Show me the evidence and I'll recant. Personal anecdotes will not suffice. Just because people do it doesn't make it right.
The only reason people resort to spanking is that they don't know the alternatives. Better education in parenting is the solution. We have sex education classes in schools, we should also have parenting education classes. Parenting is arguably the most important job a person could have, and requires zero education (all it takes is a penis and a vagina), whereas any other job you can think of requires more education than parenting. People end up relying on their own parents as role-models, and so we end up with endless cycles of ignorant parents raising ignorant kids who grow up to be ignorant parents raising more ignorant kids.
Modern parenting practices have come a long way from simply 'time outs' vs. spanking. Before you advocate violence you should educate yourself on the topic first. Someone advocating spanking today is the equivalent of someone advocating corporal punishment or the death penalty as tools for reducing crime. All of them are methods that do not have a positive overall effect. They do not work as advertised.
Spanking is ineffective, unnecessary, and ultimately harmful overall.
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Care to prove that?
What Would Kharn Do?
There is no evidence of its effectiveness over modern parenting practices, thus it is ineffective. Because it is ineffective, it is unnecessary.
As for its harm:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/14/health/webmd/main1042550.shtml
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9708/14/nfm.spanking/
http://www2.canada.com/vancouversun/features/parenting/story.html?id=5fdf00e9-b4dd-47a8-9917-7cc478017f98
http://web.ncf.ca/an588/fivestudies.txt
That's just the tip of the iceberg.
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Now while i am not going to debate such a drole topic... (although i do feel both methods have their place)
"There's nothing about spanking that teaches kids to behave in the future," she said. "It just teaches them not to get caught"
That quote caught my eye
On the flip side we would have
"Not spanking a child, reinforces the fact that no harm will come to them, for being a little demon spawn"
Theory Behind Spanking;
Disobeying the parent, leads to spanking
Spanking is mild physical pain
Children dislike pain
therefore, children avoid pain...
by... obeying the parent
-------------------------------
Same theory works on humans in general
Humans dislike pain
therefore, humans avoid pain
Walking downstairs doesnt hurt, doing a somersault down the stairs does...
Humans walk down stairs, pain avoided
Lesson learned?
What Would Kharn Do?
I'm not going to get into a debate on this subject, for various reasons, not the least of which being that I don't feel like looking this old and tired subject up for references to counter the references provided. But I stand behind my statement with full authority and confidence that spanking has never been proven to cause harm, and has never been proven to be ineffective; also that current methods are no substitute for it, and in fact are inferior.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Hey, you brought it up.
Ah, now we have spanking denialism to go along with all the other forms of denialism we've seen so far (evolution, global warming, etc.). "I will blatantly ignore the evidence cited, fail to provide any evidence of my own, and boldly claim that I am right anyway! Haha! Take that!" Sad.
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So we're just going to ignore Doomy's theory of Spankage...?
ok, ill just be over here...
in the corner...
hurting small animals...
What Would Kharn Do?
It needs a lot of learning to raise a child correctly and I can tell you most of the parents dont know a thing about it.
Fuck that, I should learn japanese and go to live to japan as soon as possible, thats the country with a low crime rate. And my fucking dwarf country has one of the highest murder rate in europe, highest suicide rate in the world. And children are awful here, if a child who even didn't reach adolescence could murder then there's nothing to do anymore.
I'm going to have to agree with Natural on this, mostly.
Spanking is very good at making your kids do what you want them to right now, but with over use it becomes useless as a deterrent. It also has a lot of negative effects on personality. It's also ineffective at conveying moral principle. I have however seen many instances where time-outs are completely ineffective too.
To me, it's a matter of understanding and respect. You have to make sure the child knows why the action in question is wrong, and they have to respect you to value your opinion or authority.
If I ever have a kid I'll stick to the non-violent stuff when possible, but I won't rule out a show of force when necessary. I won't punish a child physically for a non-violent offense, and I won't punish a child physically until I know they are aware of the wrongness of the action and I have exhausted other methods. If they know it's immoral, and why it's immoral, but continue doing it... what else can you do? Any child who shows that complete lack of ethics has to be taught by cause and effect as they will eventually be subject to them. I don't think a child is likely to exhibit reoccurring violent behavior with proper parenting though. It seems to be the kids who are abused who end up being bullies.
Having said all that, my parents used both on me. Non-violent punishments for non-violent crimes, and violent punishments for violent crimes. I was spanked a few times and I came out of it no worse for it.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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This discussion reminds me of one of my first ideas I had about the origins of religion...and Santa Claus as well.
I thought that religion was created as a way to control unruly children. If children won't listen to you, surely they would behave if there was an all powerful being that saw your bad deeds. You don't want to piss off God and go to hell, or lose precious presents on Christmas morning for that matter.
Eventually some children grew up, never learning of their parents deception, and spread the message of God to others. A terrible practical joke, gone horribly wrong in other words.
I wonder if any of it has any credibility...
I find not giving attention to negative forum behaviour more effective than forum spankings.
See what spanking turns you into?
Your argument is logically equivalent to: Torture and imprisonment work well to suppress political dissent. People who are tortured and imprisoned tend not to commit political dissent. Therefore what's wrong with using torture and imprisonment for suppressing political dissent?
The connection with spanking is as follows: If all we are looking for is short-term obedience to parents, then yes, spanking works for that purpose. So what? My point is that a) mere parental obedience is not the right goal for child-rearing and parenting, b) the real goals for parenting should be to raise healthy, intelligent, self-disciplined kids who become healthy, intelligent, and self-disciplined adults, c) for acheiving these goals, you don't need spanking, d) there are actually much better methods than spanking to achieve those goals, e) spanking is actually detrimental to many of those long-term goals, and there is evidence to support this claim, f) the goals you are proposing (i.e. parental obedience under the threat of violence/pain) are also detrimental to the long-term goals of modern parenting, as well as detrimental to the well-being of society.
Like Vastet, I don't actually want to get into a lengthy debate either. However, I couldn't stand by silent after the post he made, especially considering that it was in response to a video of children committing violence on other people.
I guarantee you those kids were not the product of well-educated parents, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were exposed to violence and abuse themselves as young children. It is the culture of violence that exacerbates natural human instincts towards violence to the point where kids would murder someone like that. Spanking is the tame-end of such a culture, and the line between spanking and more abusive forms of violence perpetrated on kids is not so clear as Vastet pretends it is. It is similar to the moderates who support the fundies. Sure, most moderates themselves are minor contributors to the problem, but they are fundamentally supporting the same thing the fundies support. Likewise, those who support spanking, in ignorance of modern parenting practices (in fact, as Vastet shows, in direct opposition to modern parenting practices, which are denigrated as 'inferior' without any supporting evidence), are fundamentally supporting the same thing that the more severe violent abusers are supporting, i.e. the 'right' for adults to inflict violence on kids, the idea that might makes right, and the idea that people should be obedient to 'authorities' even if the only claim to authority these 'authorities' have is the possession of a penis and/or vagina.
There are so many problems with spanking, and so many effective alternatives, that to support it is simply irrational.
We don't hit adults, and in many places it's even illegal to hit animals. In most schools it's illegal for teachers to hit kids. And yet, for some faith-based reason, it's okay for an ignorant parent to hit their child. For what reason? Is the child their 'property'? Does the child not have the same fundamental rights, to be protected from assault, as adults? What is the fundamental difference between a parent hitting a child and a teacher hitting a child?
Is the only response the immediate effectiveness of obedience to the parent? As I said, torture and imprisonment are effective ways to suppress political dissent. Do you also support that? Of course not, because the mere effectiveness of a technique for some short term goal does not justify the goal itself, nor does it justify the long-term negative effects.
So, that's it. That's my last post on this. It's one of those quasi-religious topics that will take many years to die. I've already got enough religious nuts to deal with. Don't want to spread myself too thin.
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Assuming that i was ever spanked? Maybe... maybe more spanking would have "straightened me out"? hmm? heh
Correct! but...
awh... you almost had it... i make no claim to it being right or wrong, only that it works on a fundamental level
Understandable... in a similar manner, "i couldnt stand by silently" while some one says "violence is not the answer" even though it is... for once!
We dont what now?
Yes
No
Ownership
9/10ths of the law, right?
... *cough* ...
The Ends are supposed to justify the means, no the other way around ;-p
What Would Kharn Do?
Actually, a lot of kids are upset by it, believe it or not. The main problem is that it's a "quick fix", it represses the kid's emotions and doesn't do anything other than establish that someone "in power" of you has the right to hit you. If a child behaves badly and you threaten them, guess what? They'll keep doing that thing, just out of your watch. Parents need to focus on teaching WHY, not BECAUSE I SAID SO. Physical punishment is NOT discipline.
Causing pain to say "I love you" is extremely confusing for children. You also have to remember that kids are still developing moral judgment of what constitutes right from wrong, good from bad.
Also, I don't know why people can't understand that it can be very violating. People forget that kids have feelings and sensitivities to where and how you touch them. How would you feel if your boss slapped your face when you did something wrong at work, to "correct" you? Or if your partner hit you when you did something "wrong"?
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
Wouldnt be the first time
Wouldnt be the first time
nuthin wrong with a lil pain *wink wink*
...
Yay! i just creeped myself out... i forgot what that felt like...
What Would Kharn Do?
(This being a separate issue from spanking per se, I'm going to comment on it.)
You are retarded. Children are not property. You can't buy and sell them, you can't treat them as slaves, you can't dispose of them as you see fit. This is a legal question. Parents are the legal guardians of children, not their legal owners.
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What i can and cannot do, is not limited by what i should and should not do
I hope its become apperant at this point that i've found a little way into your psyche, and am messing with for my own personal enjoyment... as per usual
(Still... i feel that parents do legally own their children... )
What Would Kharn Do?
You 'feel' that they legally own their children, even when in fact they *do not* legally own their children. Like I said: Retarded.
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Dog;
Legally Liable.
Legally Responsable.
If i dont want the dog anymore, i can get rid of it.
Not "allowed" to brutalize, abuse, or have sex with.
I'm responsable for actions it takes, and can be held accountable by the government for such actions
Child;
Legally Liable.
Legally Responsable.
If i dont want the child anymore, i can get rid of it.
Not "allowed" to brutalize, abuse, or have sex with.
I'm responsable for actions it takes, and can be held accountable by the government for such actions
The only differences i see between owning a Dog, and owning a Child is as follows
1. "Wording" Legal Guardian = Owner
2. The older the Child, the less ownship one legally has over the child
does saying "Legal Guardian" make people feel better? is it more "P.C"? does it help you sleep better at night knowing that your a Guardian of a lesser being, then an Owner of one.
edit; I take back what i said about this being a drole topic... your making it worth my while
What Would Kharn Do?
True enough, and it was a rash thing to do. But I tend to emotional rashness on occassion.
Not in this case. The studies you have and will point to are all biased and flawed. There are appeals to emotion and faulty conclusions all over the place. Having been through this argument at least a couple dozen times online and offline, I know exactly how the debate ends: Opinion.
So I'm simply deciding not to go down a road I've been down far too often, for the sake of my own happiness.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I often wonder how many of the "don't spank children" advocates actually have children of their own.
To me, spanking is a last resort. If all "reasoning" and non-violent punishment fails and they are still being a little shit then they need to feel a little pain so they can "get the message" that bad behavior won't be tolerated.
It's just like whenever our dog bit our child on the face: I kicked the fucker and swatted its ass with a broomstick as it was scurrying out the back door because the dog KNEW biting was wrong but did it anyway, yet several members of the RRS (those without children) acted like I commited an eternal sin because I struck the animal in defense of my child and for discipline. The dog knows that biting is wrong/bad but chose to bite anyway, therefore swift justice was imposed.
A recent study at the University of Colorado of Boulder found that 3 year olds do not function as we expect them to:
I would speculate that this translates to behavioral issues as well: I tell a 3 year old that they need to behave or they will be punished with no reason why what they're doing is wrong, it essentially "goes in one ear and out the other". If I discipline with a spanking with no prior admonishments then all that does is engrain a "it hurts if I do X" mindset. If I reason with the child and use nonviolent punishments (IE no ice cream, time out) BEFORE use spanking as a last resort, all of the "reasoning" before the spanking occurs is stored so the child at least has a vague indication of WHY what they're doing is wrong, even if they choose to do it anyway.
Your god's silence speaks loud and clear
A lot of them do. And to be honest, most people aren't fit to be parents. It's not a criticism, it's just an observation. Children don't nessecarily make you happy, and they can be very demaning emotionally and psychologically. If you "can't handle" parenting or find it too much and have to resort to smacking kids around out of frusteration....maybe you shouldn't have kids, you know?
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
Alright, this is my experience as a babysitter/taking care of kids. Take it or leave it.
When a child is acting out, the best thing to do is remain calm. Kids often misbehave to get your attention, and if you react every time, it creates a vicious cycle. Either way, they look to you as the parent/guardian for protection and guidance. If you hit or yell, it ups their anxiety big time. They cry, hyperventilate, and some resort to nervous habits. Kids that get hit also tend to hit their stuffed animals and pets, mimicking their parents and venting their repressed emotions. Remember that they don't yet have a platform on which to defend themselves nor a developed toolkit for handling situations, and it can be intense. I've seen it happen and it honestly disgusts me, especially since 100% of the time the situation could have been handled in a rational, patient way in which both parties benefit instead of suffer.
One family I babysat for had a pretty reactive mother. The father was chill, but the mom freaked out a lot. Once the youngest brother wouldn't leave the older brother alone. (They were about elementary school age) The older brother asked him to stop multiple times, and finally, he hit his brother in frusteration. The little brother began to cry and the mother immediately started reprimanding the older brother about how horrible it was to hit his brother, and how he would have his toys taken away.
Needless to say, the situation spun into chaos. The older brother began to cry, upset and intensely frusterated. From this situation, he learned that his opinion wasn't valued, his personal space (which his brother invaded) didn't matter, and had absolutely no future reference for how to better handle the situation. If his mother had hit him, he'd also probably feel humiliated and confused. (After all, HE had hit his brother...it would have in addition taught him the hitting was how you solved problems)
When the mother left, the kids were still rattled. The younger brother had forgotten all about it (I assumed he had cried to get the mother's attention since his brother barely touched him) and the older brother was nervous and jittery.
Guess what I did? I took the older brother aside and let him talk. I calmly and logically asked him why he was upset, and questioned what he could have done to handle the situation better. As we talked, he began to relax. He was learning to use his cognitive reasoning, not his emotions, to handle a problem. As a result, he respected me. We decided to apologize to his younger brother. Then I helped him ask his younger brother for an apology, and the two reached a mutual agreement. No tears, no anxiety, no anger on my part.
There. Problem fucking solved. It's not complicated, and it's empowering. CHILDREN AREN'T STUPID, believe it or not. When I was a kid, my parents never hit me, and I understood everything they told me perfectly well. As a result, I was a much calmer and happier baby. I never feared my parents would hurt me, and I felt safe around them and willing to come to them for anything.
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
Holy shit on an alter, it's not like I'm beating my kid here. Why the fuck are you talking down to me like that pepp? My child is in no way afraid of me; every day when I pick her up from day care she is running to me with the biggest grin on her face screaming "DAADDDYYY!!!!" She is always bringing me her "my little ponies" and telling me their names and their stories and how this one played with that one, and on and on and on.
I have had 3 years so far to learn how to be a father and so far I think I've done a pretty good job of raising my child.
Rational response indeed, pepp.
Your god's silence speaks loud and clear
As a father of three children there is a little matter to keep in mind. They are all individuals that act and respond differently.
My father spanked me with a belt when I deserved it. And I don't see a problem with anything he did in that manner. I don't use a belt on my children (Wife's decision). But I will spank them hard when the need warrants it.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Huh? When did I talk down to you? I wasn't criticizing/talking about YOU, I was talking about specific situations that I've seen myself. All parents are different, and all kids respond differently. I was referring to the parents that I'VE dealt with.
Actually, you sound like a great dad, I didn't mean to direct my comment at you specifically.
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
Sorry, I assumed differently. Please accept my apologies.
Your god's silence speaks loud and clear
We all assumed differently, because its the same garbage story that every non-spanking proponent dishes out in such a discussion
Its right up there with
" its the quiet ones you gotta watch out for "
What Would Kharn Do?
Some kids won't understand any other form of "non-violent" punishment, sometimes it's warranted, sometimes not, for the most part it's depends on the child. My daughter has been hit twice, both times on the hand, once for trying to touch a hot pot and the second time because she hit my sister, and wouldn't apologize even after her "time out" (which is to sit in an empty room on a chair and not move for 3 minutes, it goes up to 4 minutes next month) Since she wouldn't apologize and actually hit my sister again, she got hit on the hand, and I asked her if she liked it, she said no, and I said then apologize, which she promptly did.
My friends kid, time out, ignoring it, grounding, none of this works on him, because the kid simply does not care, what is time out when you have a house full of toys and a mother too busy to be able to keep eye on him and a father the same? Whats grounding going to do if it's the same. Ignoring it makes it worse with this kid. I advocated to have him spanked, but alas the mother feels differently and she can deal with the little hell spawn (can't even take him to restaurants because he runs wild and yells at everyone).
With that said, every child is different, with some reasoning and time out works, others don't. But there is a huge difference between corrective punishment and abuse. If you think time out works all the time great, however there are kids outhere which this doesn't work for them, it's a joke really. I know that I can count to 2 and 90 percent of the time my daughter stops misbehaving, however at 3 she gets punished (time out) no matter what, if she stops misbehaving, apologizes etc, at three it's over and done with. Now once time out is over, I try to explain why she got punished and what the consequence of doing it again will be, which is a spank, to date it has not reached this point other than the 2 smacks on the hands (one which was completely reactive to her trying to touch a hot pot).
However I remember friends of mine being able to get away with murder, friends calling their mothers bitches to their faces, I always remembered thinking that if I did that, my mother would have put me in the hospital, then once I got out my father would put me back in the hospital. At some point chidren will only respect authority if it is enforced, did I get hit? hell ya I did, and I can count on both hands how many times (9 to be exact) and I remember exactly what I did wrong and remembered never to do it again.
Exactly...
What Would Kharn Do?
My thoughts exactly. Non-violent punishment is great, but you can't rule out a show of force. When non-violent punishment consistently fails you have to fall back on a more effective, albeit somewhat primitive means of punishment. It's your job to prepare them for the world, and the world won't put up with their shit.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
Huh.
That's pretty fucked-up, dude.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
What?! how is that fucked up? o_O? its not like his father gave him 20 lashes with a bullwhip
What Would Kharn Do?
Kevin's stuck in a mire of stupidity lately. Best to ignore him for such ridiculous statements as this.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
No it's not your fault. My post was confusing.
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
I actually agree. Time outs don't work in the sense of discipline, but they can help a kid chill out and give the parent room to breathe.
*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*
"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby
You should never teach a child that violence is a means to an end. Invariably they are being taught that they can punch their way out of a problem...because as a parent, *you* are the example of how they are taught an adult should behave...
That isn't to say that you should not discipline your children...Children *NEED* consistant parameters to live by and...they need to be taught to be accountable for their actions...hitting them is an ineffectual way to accomplish that. Its a short cut to make a parents job easier...
denying a misbehaving child the internet, television, or their iPods is usually much more effective (depending on their age)...certainly there are other ways of holding a child accountable...allowing them the privelidge of learning to be responsible and learning that their actions have consequences is the best gift you can give them.
I have two wonderfully behaved kids...I have never had to hit either one of them.
Peppermint is right...most people aren;t cut out to be parents...its not something that can be done on a whim...or because you think it will be fun to play house for a while...
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
In this specific situation, no proof is necessary. The goal here is to demonstrate that physical power ought not be used to achieve a goal. Surely you can see why spanking wouldn't work here.
Otherwise, psychologists demonstrated long ago that punishments do not change behavior. Reinforcers do.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'