I seriously need your help----Fear Of Dying.

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I seriously need your help----Fear Of Dying.

It's 4:40 in the morning over here and I need some sleep, so I'll type this shit up real quick.

My fear of dying or any of my family members(parents especially) dying,  has been getting real real serious lately. To the point of crying sometimes(which I consider real pathetic btw). I've had severe depression/anxiety since I can remember and I probably have thantophobia even since I was a believer.

My eyes are closing on me, so I will type more tomorrow.

 

I'm just wondering how you guys deal with the thoughts of dying or your family members dying and never getting to see them again.

 


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Fear of death is natural.

Fear of death is natural. Those who boast its absence in the belief that it makes them sound brave are, in my opinion, missing an essential characteristic without which their ability to truly empathise is severely restricted, or of course are simply lying to themselves or expressing their immaturity. Whatever their motivation they are departing from what is a completely natural and logical trepidation without which we as a sentient life form would be seriously disadvantaged with a view to our collective and individual chances of survival.

 

A phobia, or an excessive fear of anything on the other hand, as in the case of a true thanatophobe, is a debilitating psychiatric trait which in terms of definition is unrelated to the object of the fear, but in terms of treatment requires addressing the particular object of the fear in order to re-establish a healthy perspective (a relationship with the concept which does not impinge on one's mental health). In the case of death, something which is as inevitable as the grief and sense of loss which accompanies it, the treatment cannot take the approach of attempting to minimise the importance of the event but instead should attempt to establish and reinforce what can be considered a healthy attitude to have towards it.

 

None of us who have experienced the death of close family and friends (and I have been through this a few times) can honestly say that the event has impacted on them the same way twice. Each death is a tragedy but the nature of that tragedy is as unique as the individuals whose death precipitated it. That is important to understand. Another way of viewing the same fact is to understand in other words that it is not you as the sufferer who dictates the level of grief, or the sense of loss and powerlessness which permeates that grief, or the time it will take to come to terms with that grief. You might anticipate how you would feel should you lose person X, Y or Z in your life, but you can never predict it accurately. Their deaths, and your reaction to it, are unique events, and as unique events they deserve not to be classified together as one homogenous and predictable emotional trial, something which your phobia encourages you to do. Nor should you anticipate each to be as devastating as the other, something also which your phobia encourages you to assume. The reality is otherwise.

 

When it comes to fearing your own death then this too is completely natural, but again tends to over-simplify the processes involved. A sudden death, by its very nature, should never be a cause of worry. What people tend to fear, the saying goes, is not death as much as dying, and when morbidly anticipating their own demise tend therefore to contemplate impending death rather than the death itself, and the agonising process of trying to come to terms with one's demise before it occurs. This therefore is often expressed as a fear for how that death will impact on those with whom one enjoys closest bonds. There is no "cure" for such a fear, but there is a responsibility on the part of the individual to recognise that an obsession with it impacts just as negatively on those you care about and who care about you. If you truly want to spare them grief you do what you can while you are alive to prepare them for your death by giving them reason to be glad for having known you. They will be sad enough on your passing without exacerbating things by depressing them beforehand and leaving them little happy to remember afterwards.

 

Time may be a great healer when it comes to grief, but experience is also a great medicine in preparing oneself for that grief, and even for one's own death. Age, and attending funerals (which tend to increase in frequency as the years go by), bring a perspective to bear on events. Without your phobia such a perspective is one you would naturally adopt. As someone who recognises at least that you have such a phobia, you have also taken the first tentative step towards allowing yourself to adopt that perspective too. You will never lose the fear you speak of, and that is a good thing in my view. But you can lose its debilitating effect when it is applied disproportionately to your life - which after all is for living.

 

Finally, the religious notion of "seeing your loved ones again in the after-life" is an aspiration one can readily understand, whatever obvious problems the concept throws up logistically. But it is essentially an immature aspiration, the type of thing one says to a person unequipped to understand the subtler, but much more meaningful reality - that a person's death ends their person but does not extinguish others' memories of that person or necessarily stop their effect on others. There is no "reward" or "punishment" meted out to the person after their death, but there is an immeasurable reward which can be bestowed by that person to those still living which, to my mind at least, is much more beautiful a concept than its christian counterpart. The after-life is an insult to the intelligence, but true recognition of and delight in the after-affect of a life well lived is a compliment to both intelligence and human spirit. That is the real legacy we leave behind us when we die.

 

Your responsibility while living therefore is to ensure that such legacies as have been left by those you loved are rightfully bestowed on those who deserve it, and to do your best to prepare such a legacy yourself. Morbid obsession with the act which facilitates this bestowment decreases your ability to do either.

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I agree with everything

I agree with everything Nordman said, as long as he's referring to the fear of death one feels when facing a credible and immediate threat to ones life. Without a credible and immediate threat to ones life, however, the fear of death that many people still have to work through in their day to day living can be conquered.

I have conquered my fear of death through various means. These are the four that I think had the greatest impact.

First, knowing I will die, and there's nothing to be done about it, and living with that thought near the top of my mind for quite awhile. I couldn't really guess how long, but likely it bounced around my head for a year or two.

Second, knowing that I have accomplished more in 30 years than most do in 80. The influences I've had on people and things will stretch through time and the generations. And I continue to experience new things and converse with new people, making every day an addition to all that I have already done. The internet has helped with this, along with the knowledge that even when I die, it will be many many years before all that I posted online has disappeared. If it ever does.

Third, the pure random luck in our existence in the first place. Consider, 4.5 billion years of Earth history. One misstep along that chain of time, and we would not be here. It is humbling to look at time realistically, instead of the theist way of projecting backwards to explain a conclusion.

Finally, experience on the edge of death. It may sound strange at first, but I have been within a hair of dying on no less than 5 seperate occassions, that I know about. Three of them I got out of myself. The other two I consider complete flukes. I should be dead today. At least twice over. I am not. This has empowered me emotionally, in that I have considered it pure luck that I'm alive in the first place. 

Of course, this is talking about irrational fear, where you have all the time in the world to think about death without it staring you directly in the face. If someone threatens my life, I get the standard adrenaline rush and dose of fear if there's a credible threat. These are biological functions and simply happen. But to contemplate death, there is nothing to cause me fear. I'm not sure whether it was my acceptance of it that drove it away or my acknowledgement that even when I'm gone the things I've said and done will continue to live on that took the fear away, but the result is the same.

The best thing for most people to help with that is simply to talk about it with others, and get their perspectives. So you have already started down the road.

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Cory_The_Rational_Dude

Cory_The_Rational_Dude wrote:

It's 4:40 in the morning over here and I need some sleep, so I'll type this shit up real quick.

My fear of dying or any of my family members(parents especially) dying,  has been getting real real serious lately. To the point of crying sometimes(which I consider real pathetic btw). I've had severe depression/anxiety since I can remember and I probably have thantophobia even since I was a believer.

My eyes are closing on me, so I will type more tomorrow.

 

I'm just wondering how you guys deal with the thoughts of dying or your family members dying and never getting to see them again.

 

I have a fear of pain, but death is something none of us will avoid. I worry more about not having my mother around, or what happens to her psychologically when she loses friends to age. I worry how old my mothers dog is and how much time the dog has, and what will happen to my mom psychologically when the inevitable(hopefully no time soon) happens to her dog.

How does one deal with this? There are no easy answers other than seeking out support and not holding it in. You can second guess life all you want and you can dwell on death and let it get to you. But in the end we all die. But, you can also comfort yourself that those you love and you yourself, when this happens to all of us eventually, can still be around in the memories of those who survive us.

I have made it clear myself, that when I die, I don't want my wake to be a sad event, but more like a celebrity roast. I would expect tears and mourning, because that is quite normal, but I would simply ask that any of that is done outside the wake seperately.

Death is part of life, and not even this planet will escape it. It happens to all life and will happen to all stars.

I would suggest if that it is getting that bad for you, seek out professional thearapy(holy people are not shrinks, but cheerleaders), and or seek out a trusted friend who is like minded and don't hold it in. Allow yourself time to feel what you feel, but don't dwell on it.

It is true that "life goes on" despite all our fighting for more time, it runs out for all of us.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Death happens, you are only

Death happens, you are only here for a small span of time.

 

When you recognise that and accept it, it's a lot easier. I can die pretty peacefully, granted that isn't saying I WANT to...I'm only 25. I have a strong will to live, but death happens to everyone.

 

You are no different from any other animal, everything has a limited lifespan. I remember going to a friend's funeral before I graduated high school, and not really feeling anything but anger at the preacher for using the death as an opportunity to preach Jesus to half the school in attendance.

 

Really, death is natural, and normal. Everything ends.

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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Nordmann wrote:Fear of death

Nordmann wrote:

Fear of death is natural. Those who boast its absence in the belief that it makes them sound brave are, in my opinion, missing an essential characteristic without which their ability to truly empathise is severely restricted

I'll fully admit to that much... which is probably why i handle it so well...

 

 

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My fear of death is not

My fear of death is not about where I will end up but what I would lose here. I don't want my kids or wife to be without a husband/father or miss seeing my kids grow up. I couldn't imagine trying to prioritize my life based upon anything other than my family.

I don't want that fear to go away or be displaced. It provides clarity on what really should matter in this world for me.

 

 

Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs


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Death happens, you basically

Death happens, you basically just have to accept it and the sooner the better. For your own death just remember, it doesn't matter if you die, don't worry about yourself. Your death will one day come and I hope that when it does you will have to wisdom to carry on and fight until there is no hope and to accept that time and make your last moments peaceful. As for family members and friends that is much harder. The way I look at it is that everything will eventually end either from death or other reasons. This is why I remain independant while still leaning on others. I have a 'normal' social life but I have taught myself not to take it for ganted and to remember that people move, go on to other things and, of course, die. Once you accept that nothing is certain in life and that anything can change it becomes easier to not hold on and accept life in flux.


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Cory_The_Rational_Dude

Cory_The_Rational_Dude wrote:

It's 4:40 in the morning over here and I need some sleep, so I'll type this shit up real quick.

My fear of dying or any of my family members(parents especially) dying,  has been getting real real serious lately. To the point of crying sometimes(which I consider real pathetic btw). I've had severe depression/anxiety since I can remember and I probably have thantophobia even since I was a believer.

My eyes are closing on me, so I will type more tomorrow.

 

I'm just wondering how you guys deal with the thoughts of dying or your family members dying and never getting to see them again.

Faith is letting go of fear.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Then faith is insanity or

Then faith is insanity or stupidity. Or both.


The Doomed Soul
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Paisley wrote:Faith is

Paisley wrote:

Faith is letting go of logic.

 

Fixed

 


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Cory_The_Rational_Dude

Cory_The_Rational_Dude wrote:

It's 4:40 in the morning over here and I need some sleep, so I'll type this shit up real quick.

My fear of dying or any of my family members(parents especially) dying,  has been getting real real serious lately. To the point of crying sometimes(which I consider real pathetic btw). I've had severe depression/anxiety since I can remember and I probably have thantophobia even since I was a believer.

My eyes are closing on me, so I will type more tomorrow.

 

I'm just wondering how you guys deal with the thoughts of dying or your family members dying and never getting to see them again.

 

 

This happened to me when I was a young child. I used to live in the basement and the total darkness and silence got me thinking of death and dying and the afterlife. Although I was christian at the time I kept thinking what if after death was nothing, non-existence. I also started to fear dying. I would hide in a corner of the room and cower in fear.

I don't remember how or why, but I got over it and I don't fear death or dying anymore. I still don't know if death means non-existence, but it doesn't bother me if that's what happens. I do fear my parents and sister dying, but for purely selfish reasons. I'd just miss them too much. I talk to my mom everyday, and it would really suck to not have her around. Same goes for the rest of my family.


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I have no fear of death, but

I have no fear of death, but I do have a fear of dying. I've seen the death of a brother and spouse the last few years and it's not easy. Dealing with the death of a loved one gets easier as time goes by. I didn't believe this when my wife passed away and it took me a long time to deal with it. I still deal with depression over their deaths, but that's part of having good relationships.

When I was younger I had a fear for the death of my parents, but as I have gotten older I realize that death is an important part of life. Crying over a loss isn't pathetic at all. I still cry sometimes but those times have gotten further and further apart. If you feel that your fear of death is causing problems in your life then you should seek professional counseling. However, unless it's crippling your life your just a normal person dealing with a natural fear. Religion is a direct result of dealing with the fear of dying. As an atheist you should view death as just another unknown. Talking with others about your fear is a good start to manage them. I don't think anyone can completely overcome fear, but they can be controlled to some extent.

If you want to talk more offline most of us would love to help.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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Paisley

Paisley wrote:

Cory_The_Rational_Dude wrote:

It's 4:40 in the morning over here and I need some sleep, so I'll type this shit up real quick.

My fear of dying or any of my family members(parents especially) dying,  has been getting real real serious lately. To the point of crying sometimes(which I consider real pathetic btw). I've had severe depression/anxiety since I can remember and I probably have thantophobia even since I was a believer.

My eyes are closing on me, so I will type more tomorrow.

 

I'm just wondering how you guys deal with the thoughts of dying or your family members dying and never getting to see them again.

Faith is letting go of fear.

................. and reason.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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The Doomed Soul

The Doomed Soul wrote:

Paisley wrote:

Faith is letting go of logic.

 

Fixed

 

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:

Paisley wrote:

Faith is letting go of fear.

................. and reason.

I second the motions.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Paisley
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Vastet wrote:The Doomed Soul

Vastet wrote:

The Doomed Soul wrote:

Paisley wrote:

Faith is letting go of logic.

 

Fixed

 

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:

Paisley wrote:

Faith is letting go of fear.

................. and reason.

I second the motions.

It would appear that a life based on "skeptical rationalism" ultimately leads to crippling fear, as made evident in the OP of this thread. Such is a life without faith, hope and love.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Quote:Faith is letting go of

Quote:

Faith is letting go of logic.

 

... and reason.

 

And sanity.

 

Or else the word "sanity" hasn't much meaning at all.

 

I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy


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Paisley wrote:Vastet

Paisley wrote:

Vastet wrote:

The Doomed Soul wrote:

Paisley wrote:

Faith is letting go of logic.

 

Fixed

 

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:

Paisley wrote:

Faith is letting go of fear.

................. and reason.

I second the motions.

It would appear that a life based on "skeptical rationalism" ultimately leads to crippling fear, as made evident in the OP of this thread. Such is a life without faith, hope and love.

Not really, without fear of punishment or hope of reward in some unknown afterlife this life becomes more real and meaningful. I find that it is out of love and hope that OP fears death. As an atheist I have no reason to personally fear death. However, religion is a crutch for way too many people and when people learn to rely more on each other for salvation than some invisible sky daddy we'll become a better society.

 

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


Paisley
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Cali_Athiest2 wrote:Paisley

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:
Paisley wrote:
It would appear that a life based on "skeptical rationalism" ultimately leads to crippling fear, as made evident in the OP of this thread. Such is a life without faith, hope and love.

Not really,

Yes, really. The OP of this thread clearly provides evidence that this is the case. 

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:
Without fear of punishment or hope of reward in some unknown afterlife this life becomes more real and meaningful. I find that it is out of love and hope that OP fears death.

I beg to differ. There is no hope without faith. And without faith there is no trust. And without trust there is no love. And in a world devoid of God, there is no possibility of everlasting love. This is the source of his existential angst.  

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:
As an atheist I have no reason to personally fear death. However, religion is a crutch for way too many people and when people learn to rely more on each other for salvation than some invisible sky daddy we'll become a better society.

Correction. As an atheist, you have no reason to hope.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Quote:There is no hope

Quote:

There is no hope without faith

 

Bullshit. And arrogant.

 

I distinguish between faith and blind faith, and I am not devoid of hope on any level. Care to rephrase your assertions?

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Paisley wrote:It would

Paisley wrote:

It would appear that a life based on "skeptical rationalism" ultimately leads to crippling fear, as made evident in the OP of this thread. Such is a life without faith, hope and love.

 

It would appear you're making a huge assumption based on the post of one athiest. I guess the fact that tons of religious people are just as scared of death is being ignored. By your logic, a life based on faith ultimately leads to crippling fear.

 

And what make syou think atheists have no hope or love? What an absurd claim. Do you think atheists are without emotion? With all the atheists in relationships I guess they're just "pretending" to be in love?

 

Seriously you make the most retarded statements.


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Paisley wrote:Yes, really.

Paisley wrote:
Yes, really. The OP of this thread clearly provides evidence that this is the case.

Uh, no. The only thing the OP evinces is a fear of death. A perfectly reasonable thing, really, considering that (generally) we *like* living. It's really sort of the flip side of the coin that made your people come up with the panacaea of an afterlife- the idea that, okay, we're all going to die some day, but hey, it's all right- afterwards we're going to be with our loved ones FOREVER. I'm a bit bemused by it myself, considering that all the religions of the world have had to wrestle with the absolute lack of evidence (nobody's come back and told us something *everyone* believes about the afterlife, for instance); Buddhism has an entertaining sutra about this, actually. I didn't like the reasoning because it seemed like a cop-out.

Anyway, we're getting off topic here.

Quote:
I beg to differ. There is no hope without faith.

Bullshit. Hope and faith are utterly unconnected. Hope is what one wants to have happen- desires, basically. Faith is the wishing for these things to happen. But you don't need faith to have hope.  Example: I hope I will be able to finish my 2 20-page research papers within a month, when classes are over. Do I need to have *faith* that i will? No. If I'm actually *doing something,* not merely faithfully believing that I will finish the work, I have hope. It's hope in action. Faith in action is not really doing the work- it's just believing something will happen.

Quote:
And without faith there is no trust.

*pokes hole* Unless there's evidence.

Quote:
And without trust there is no love.

Not really. People can love without trusting someone. Just think of any really bad abusive relationship. At least one of those people can be in love, but they can't trust that person. Or think about being in love with someone with mental issues. You can't trust them, but you can love them.

Quote:
And in a world devoid of God, there is no possibility of everlasting love. This is the source of his existential angst.

Wow, that was a hell of a leap. Please, tell me how Uzbekistan's weather is today.

'Everlasting' love is A)a chimera, B)not what we were even talking about. The source of existential angst is the knowledge- actually, more the fear of the knowledge- of the OPs mortality. YOU think it's lack of God. But it's not; not really.  It's mortality staring the OP in the face. And I applaud him/her for having the courage to not fall back on fables and fairy tales that make people less afraid of death.

Quote:
Correction. As an atheist, you have no reason to hope.

And you do? You back a god that sends people to eternal torment/torture because they refuse to bow and scrape before him. Your god fucked up, then decided to fix the problem in the most ass-backward way imaginable, while simultaneously saying he lied to 'his chosen people' (the Law doesn't matter any more, at least according to you) and saying he got his message spread to all corners of the earth, even though the VAST MAJORITY of people in history did *not.* And on top of that, his followers can't even agree on... well, anything. You'd think an all-powerful god would get his shit together enough to make it clear what the right thing to do is.

Regardless of all that- you don't have love from your Jesus. You have threats and bribery. Hooray for you, and hooray for the rest of us who have to act like you're not out of your mind because your 'self-evident truths' have dominated the western world for ages.

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If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.


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Paisley wrote:Yes, really.

Paisley wrote:

Yes, really. The OP of this thread clearly provides evidence that this is the case.

The OP clearly provides evidence of the thoughts and feelings of the OP. That's it.

Quote:

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:
Without fear of punishment or hope of reward in some unknown afterlife this life becomes more real and meaningful. I find that it is out of love and hope that OP fears death.

I beg to differ. There is no hope without faith.

 

What is your basis for this assertion? There is plenty of hope regardless of faith(or lack there of). Lack of a belief in a god has nothing do with one's ability to hope. I'm pretty sure most if not all humans have this capability.

Quote:

And without faith there is no trust.

Not really. Lack of a god belief doesn't mean athiests aren't able to trust people.

 

Quote:

And without trust there is no love.

Without trust there is no trust. Love is a feeling. You tend to trust the one's you love, but it isn't a requirement. For example, I love my uncle but I wouldn't trust him cause he's an alcoholic and a mooch.

 

Quote:

And in a world devoid of God, there is no possibility of everlasting love.

I guess the fact that athiests frequently love knocks that claim out of the water.

 

Quote:

This is the source of his existential angst.

Emo.

 

Quote:
Quote:
As an atheist I have no reason to personally fear death. However, religion is a crutch for way too many people and when people learn to rely more on each other for salvation than some invisible sky daddy we'll become a better society.

Correction. As an atheist, you have no reason to hope.

 

Correction, as a human anyone can have hope. And you don't get to dictate otherwise.


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Just think about something

Just think about something worse than death, then death won't seem so bad by comparison.


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I prefer to think of being

I prefer to think of being on fire, falling off a cliff (maybe 50 feet tall or so) and being covered in fire ants or really pissed off ferrets. That generally calms down my fear of death.

OrdinaryClay wrote:
If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.


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crazymonkie wrote:I prefer

crazymonkie wrote:

I prefer to think of being on fire, falling off a cliff (maybe 50 feet tall or so) and being covered in fire ants or really pissed off ferrets. That generally calms down my fear of death.

 

oh oh! or...

 

Falling off a cliff, being attacked by really pissed off ferrets who are covered in flaming fire ants!

What Would Kharn Do?


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Being eaten alive over 1000

Being eaten alive over 1000 yrs by a sarlaac would suck royally.


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Wow, my theoretical's

Wow, my theoretical's getting improved. I like that.


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Paisley

Paisley wrote:

Cory_The_Rational_Dude wrote:

It's 4:40 in the morning over here and I need some sleep, so I'll type this shit up real quick.

My fear of dying or any of my family members(parents especially) dying,  has been getting real real serious lately. To the point of crying sometimes(which I consider real pathetic btw). I've had severe depression/anxiety since I can remember and I probably have thantophobia even since I was a believer.

My eyes are closing on me, so I will type more tomorrow.

 

I'm just wondering how you guys deal with the thoughts of dying or your family members dying and never getting to see them again.

Faith is letting go of fear.

I don't want input from theists, sorry.


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Paisley wrote:Vastet

Paisley wrote:

Vastet wrote:

The Doomed Soul wrote:

Paisley wrote:

Faith is letting go of logic.

 

Fixed

 

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:

Paisley wrote:

Faith is letting go of fear.

................. and reason.

I second the motions.

It would appear that a life based on "skeptical rationalism" ultimately leads to crippling fear, as made evident in the OP of this thread. Such is a life without faith, hope and love.

I was scared of death and my parents dying as a believer. Actually probably even more terrified because what if I went to hell or one of my parents went to hell?

You can be "skeptical" and "rational" and have faith, hope, and love in your life.

I just have faith in people and things that I can actually see and shit that there is proof for.

 

 


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Paisley wrote:Cali_Athiest2

Paisley wrote:

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:
Paisley wrote:
It would appear that a life based on "skeptical rationalism" ultimately leads to crippling fear, as made evident in the OP of this thread. Such is a life without faith, hope and love.

Not really,

Yes, really. The OP of this thread clearly provides evidence that this is the case. 

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:
Without fear of punishment or hope of reward in some unknown afterlife this life becomes more real and meaningful. I find that it is out of love and hope that OP fears death.

I beg to differ. There is no hope without faith. And without faith there is no trust. And without trust there is no love. And in a world devoid of God, there is no possibility of everlasting love. This is the source of his existential angst.  

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:
As an atheist I have no reason to personally fear death. However, religion is a crutch for way too many people and when people learn to rely more on each other for salvation than some invisible sky daddy we'll become a better society.

Correction. As an atheist, you have no reason to hope.

yawn


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Fear of death....

I would have to say that the only fear should be in the manner of death (i.e. lttle or no suffering) not the actual ending of your life.

 

Think of it this way: How did you feel before you were born? That's going to be what death feels like.

 

Nothing.

 

So while you're here try to have fun, be nice, learn, help, love. And by 'here' I actually on this planet, not RR.

How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais


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Cory_The_Rational_Dude

Cory_The_Rational_Dude wrote:

I don't want input from theists, sorry.

 

Tough. That's what you get when you post in a forum called Atheist Vs Theist.


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While true, his comment

While true, his comment wasn't directed at you, as you weren't being the jackass.


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Nordmann wrote:Paisley

Nordmann wrote:
Paisley wrote:
There is no hope without faith

Bullshit. And arrogant.

Sorry, but simply spouting off profanity and ad hominem attacks will not invalidate my argument.

 

Nordmann wrote:
I distinguish between faith and blind faith, and I am not devoid of hope on any level. Care to rephrase your assertions?

No, I stand by statement. And I never said "blind faith."

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Paisley wrote:There is no

Paisley wrote:

There is no hope without faith

 

For you, maybe. For me there is no faith without delusion.

 

 

How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais


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Ciarin wrote:Paisley

Ciarin wrote:
Paisley wrote:
It would appear that a life based on "skeptical rationalism" ultimately leads to crippling fear, as made evident in the OP of this thread. Such is a life without faith, hope and love.

It would appear you're making a huge assumption based on the post of one athiest. I guess the fact that tons of religious people are just as scared of death is being ignored. By your logic, a life based on faith ultimately leads to crippling fear.

There is an inverse relationship between faith and fear. The more faith the less fear and vice versa.  And if there are religious people who are crippled by fear, then their faith is very weak indeed.

Ciarin wrote:
And what makes you think atheists have no hope or love? What an absurd claim. Do you think atheists are without emotion? With all the atheists in relationships I guess they're just "pretending" to be in love?

I didn't say atheists are without love. I said that without faith there is no trust; and without trust there is no love. That being said, I have encountered many atheists who are wont to criticize and lampoon faith. Certainly, atheists on this particular forum are inclined to do so. Hence, one does have to wonder how such an individual - who holds faith in such low esteem - functions in life in general and in personal relationships in particular.

Incidentally, are you an atheist? 

 

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Paisley wrote:There is an

Paisley wrote:
There is an inverse relationship between faith and fear. The more faith the less fear and vice versa.  And if there are religious people who are crippled by fear, then their faith is very weak indeed.

No, there really isn't. At least not when it comes to faith in some sort of interventionist god who claims to know what its doing but really seems awfully arbitrary or cruel. Those religious people who you claim have 'weak faith' may actually have stronger faith than you- or they might have a better understanding of what their religion is really about: FEARING GOD. This is *enshrined* in the doctrine. So tell me- how could a god that wants itself to be feared, and who explicitly tells its followers to fear it, somehow allow fear to *drop* with faith? It seems like it's more likely that god- your god, more specifically- wants more fear with more faith. 

Also: No True Scotsman fallacy.

Quote:
I didn't say atheists are without love.

Yes you did. You took us through the standard Catholic conviction of love as *only* the prerogative of Jesus, and then said that without god, there is no love. Or rather, your circular logic brought us to the idea that those without god have no love.

Quote:
I said that without faith there is no trust; and without trust there is no love.

Precisely. And since atheists, according to your vision, have no faith... well, what do you think we think when we read this?

Quote:
That being said, I have encountered many atheists who are wont to criticize and lampoon faith.

Faith without evidence, yes.

Quote:
Certainly, atheists on this particular forum are inclined to do so. Hence, one does have to wonder how such an individual - who holds faith in such low esteem - functions in life in general and in personal relationships in particular.

EVIDENCE. You base your claims on evidence which comes from self-referential sources, and the sources you use for evidence outside these first sources have been disproven or are *highly* controversial. Hence- YOU are the one with the evidence problem here.

OrdinaryClay wrote:
If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.


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Quote:Sorry, but simply

Quote:

Sorry, but simply spouting off profanity and ad hominem attacks will not invalidate my argument.

 

I realize that this is asking a great deal of you, but please do not be an idiot. What he did most certainly does not constitute an ad hominem fallacy. An ad hominem is when someone states that an argument is invalid, or a conclusion false, on the basis of the character of the person who made the argument. "Your argument is arrogant bullshit" does not constitute an ad hominem fallacy. An ad hominem fallacy would be "you are arrogant, therefore your argument is bullshit".

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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Paisley wrote:Ciarin

Paisley wrote:

Ciarin wrote:
Paisley wrote:
It would appear that a life based on "skeptical rationalism" ultimately leads to crippling fear, as made evident in the OP of this thread. Such is a life without faith, hope and love.

It would appear you're making a huge assumption based on the post of one athiest. I guess the fact that tons of religious people are just as scared of death is being ignored. By your logic, a life based on faith ultimately leads to crippling fear.

There is an inverse relationship between faith and fear. The more faith the less fear and vice versa.  And if there are religious people who are crippled by fear, then their faith is very weak indeed.

 

Not really. Some people are so afraid they use faith as a way to cope with their fear. In fact christians are required to be in fear of their god.

 

Quote:

Ciarin wrote:
And what makes you think atheists have no hope or love? What an absurd claim. Do you think atheists are without emotion? With all the atheists in relationships I guess they're just "pretending" to be in love?

I didn't say atheists are without love.

You did.

 

Quote:

I said that without faith there is no trust; and without trust there is no love.

 

See? told ya.

 

Quote:

That being said, I have encountered many atheists who are wont to criticize and lampoon faith. Certainly, atheists on this particular forum are inclined to do so. Hence, one does have to wonder how such an individual - who holds faith in such low esteem - functions in life in general and in personal relationships in particular.

 

All atheists aren't the same. Generalizing them to make your point isn't going to work.

 

Quote:

Incidentally, are you an atheist? 

 

Hmm? Is the blue cursive lettering beneath my screename not indicating anything?(HINT: it's the same as yours)  How about my signature? No good?

Maybe you're just retarded?


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crazymonkie wrote:Paisley

crazymonkie wrote:
Paisley wrote:
Yes, really. The OP of this thread clearly provides evidence that this is the case.

Uh, no. The only thing the OP evinces is a fear of death. A perfectly reasonable thing, really, considering that (generally) we *like* living.

He said that it is "serious"....that he is suffering from depression/anxiety....and that he has "thanatophobia." I trust that he is speaking the truth.

crazymonkie wrote:
It's really sort of the flip side of the coin that made your people come up with the panacaea of an afterlife- the idea that, okay, we're all going to die some day, but hey, it's all right- afterwards we're going to be with our loved ones FOREVER.

Your people?

I believe in eternal love. I trust that you do not.

crazymonkie wrote:
Paisley wrote:
I beg to differ. There is no hope without faith.

Bullshit. Hope and faith are utterly unconnected. Hope is what one wants to have happen- desires, basically. Faith is the wishing for these things to happen. But you don't need faith to have hope

What kind of semantical nonsense is this?

I hope that everything is working out for a greater good. I trust that it is. This is faith. Believers live by faith, not by fear.

crazymonkie wrote:
Example: I hope I will be able to finish my 2 20-page research papers within a month, when classes are over. Do I need to have *faith* that i will? No. If I'm actually *doing something,* not merely faithfully believing that I will finish the work, I have hope. It's hope in action. Faith in action is not really doing the work- it's just believing something will happen.

This is just another semantical ploy. You redefine faith according to your terms and then you say that hope does not entail faith. It's just pure silliness.

Example: I'm watching my team in the Super Bowl. Two minutes are left in the game and my team is behind by four points. We have the ball on our twenty - first and ten. I hope that my team will win the game. I believe that they will win the game. Why? Because I have a tremendous amount of faith in my QB and trust in his abilities to lead my team down the field for the winning TD. Do I know with absolute certitude that my  team will win. Of course not, that's why they call it hope and faith!

crazymonkie wrote:
Paisley wrote:
And without faith there is no trust.

*pokes hole* Unless there's evidence.

The believer doesn't subscribe to the atheist's definition of faith. Indeed, the atheist is not really qualified to speak on the subject of religious faith since he is, by definition, without it!

crazymonkie wrote:
Paisly wrote:
And without trust there is no love.

Not really. People can love without trusting someone. Just think of any really bad abusive relationship. At least one of those people can be in love, but they can't trust that person. Or think about being in love with someone with mental issues. You can't trust them, but you can love them.

Okay, touche. I'm willing to grant you some kind of point here. But I would argue that anyone who is in an abusive relationship is not really in love. There are other issues going on there. However, there is the possibility of unconditional love. That being said, I don't see how an atheist can account for unconditional love in his godless and spiritually-devoid world.

crazymonkie wrote:
Paisley wrote:
And in a world devoid of God, there is no possibility of everlasting love. This is the source of his existential angst.

Wow, that was a hell of a leap. Please, tell me how Uzbekistan's weather is today.

'Everlasting' love is A)a chimera, B)not what we were even talking about. The source of existential angst is the knowledge- actually, more the fear of the knowledge- of the OPs mortality. YOU think it's lack of God. But it's not; not really.  It's mortality staring the OP in the face. And I applaud him/her for having the courage to not fall back on fables and fairy tales that make people less afraid of death.

What's the leap? The OP's mortality wasn't the only thing at issue here. He was also expressing fear at the prospect of losing his loved ones.  And it's certainly no leap to say that without postulating some kind of God there is no ground to believe in eternal love.

crazymonkie wrote:
Paisley wrote:
Correction. As an atheist, you have no reason to hope.

And you do? You back a god that sends people to eternal torment/torture because they refuse to bow and scrape before him.

No, I don't. But I do believe in judgment and justice.

crazymonkie wrote:
Your god fucked up, then decided to fix the problem in the most ass-backward way imaginable, while simultaneously saying he lied to 'his chosen people' (the Law doesn't matter any more, at least according to you) and saying he got his message spread to all corners of the earth, even though the VAST MAJORITY of people in history did *not.* And on top of that, his followers can't even agree on... well, anything. You'd think an all-powerful god would get his shit together enough to make it clear what the right thing to do is.

Straw-man argument. Evidently, you are only atheistic in respect with a particular depiction of God. Sorry to disappoint, but I don't share your view of the divine.

crazymonkie wrote:
Regardless of all that- you don't have love from your Jesus. You have threats and bribery. Hooray for you, and hooray for the rest of us who have to act like you're not out of your mind because your 'self-evident truths' have dominated the western world for ages.

Assuming that your worldview is correct, why does it really matter that I am deluding myself into believing in everlasting love, eternal life and God?

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Ciarin wrote:Paisley

Ciarin wrote:
Paisley wrote:
Incidentally, are you an atheist? 

 

Hmm? Is the blue cursive lettering beneath my screename not indicating anything?(HINT: it's the same as yours)  How about my signature? No good?

I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry, but I will not debate the merits of atheism with someone who professes to be a believer.  

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Cory_The_Rational_Dude

Cory_The_Rational_Dude wrote:
Paisley wrote:
Faith is letting go of fear.

I don't want input from theists, sorry.

Sorry, but you were the one who decided to post on the "Atheist vs. Theist" forum. Therefore, I will be giving my input as I see fit.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Paisley wrote:Ciarin

Paisley wrote:

Ciarin wrote:
Paisley wrote:
Incidentally, are you an atheist? 

 

Hmm? Is the blue cursive lettering beneath my screename not indicating anything?(HINT: it's the same as yours)  How about my signature? No good?

I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry, but I will not debate the merits of atheism with someone who professes to be a believer.  

 

You say sorry a lot but I don't think you mean it. Btw, we aren't debating the merits of atheism. We're countering your bullshit claims about atheism with reality.


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deludedgod

deludedgod wrote:
Quote:

Sorry, but simply spouting off profanity and ad hominem attacks will not invalidate my argument.

I realize that this is asking a great deal of you, but please do not be an idiot. What he did most certainly does not constitute an ad hominem fallacy. An ad hominem is when someone states that an argument is invalid, or a conclusion false, on the basis of the character of the person who made the argument. "Your argument is arrogant bullshit" does not constitute an ad hominem fallacy. An ad hominem fallacy would be "you are arrogant, therefore your argument is bullshit".

It was an ad hominem argument as is yours.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Quote:It was an ad hominem

Quote:

It was an ad hominem argument as is yours.

Calling you an idiot is an insult not an ad hominem. As I have just explained above, the phrase "ad hominem fallacy" has been used incorrectly by you.

Allow me to spell this out in a manner so direct that even someone as dense and simplistic as yourself could grasp it. Suppose person A makes an argument, and person B responds in the following way:

Person B: You're a fucking idiot

This is an insult, not an ad hominem.

Now suppose instead that person B responds like this:

Person B: Your argument is bullshit

Still not an ad hominem. It's just a comment reflecting Person B's opinion of Person A's argument.

Now suppose person B responds like this:

Person B: You're a fucking idiot, and your argument is bullshit.

Still no ad hominem. This is just two disjointed comments reflecting person B's opinion of person A and his argument.

But now suppose person B responds like this:

Person B: You're a fucking idiot, therefore your argument is bullshit.

This is an ad hominem. Has your tiny brain noticed the pattern yet?

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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Paisley wrote:deludedgod

Paisley wrote:

deludedgod wrote:
Quote:

Sorry, but simply spouting off profanity and ad hominem attacks will not invalidate my argument.

I realize that this is asking a great deal of you, but please do not be an idiot. What he did most certainly does not constitute an ad hominem fallacy. An ad hominem is when someone states that an argument is invalid, or a conclusion false, on the basis of the character of the person who made the argument. "Your argument is arrogant bullshit" does not constitute an ad hominem fallacy. An ad hominem fallacy would be "you are arrogant, therefore your argument is bullshit".

It was an ad hominem argument as is yours.

 

FYI someone making fun of you isn't an ad hom. Someone making fun of you in order to discredit your argument is an ad hom(attacking the person rather than the argument).

The funny thing is everyone here has countered your argument on it's own merits. The added insults are just a bonus. Dumbass.

 

Perhaps you don't wish to be insulted, and that's fine, most people don't. But don't continue to present yourself as an idiot by claiming it to be an ad hominem.

 


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Paisley wrote:He said that

Paisley wrote:
He said that it is "serious"....that he is suffering from depression/anxiety....and that he has "thanatophobia." I trust that he is speaking the truth.

And my point stands. He's got a fear of death. It's a reasonable fear. That there may be other medical issues is incidental, and does not help your case.

Quote:
Your people?

Yes. God-believers.

Quote:
I believe in eternal love. I trust that you do not.

Love is a complex series of chemical reactions in the body. 'Eternal love,' eternal *any* emotion, is unhealthy for one's physical being. What you're saying is something akin to stating 'I believe it's possible to be high on meth forever.' The chemical reactions- at least at the outset (of both love and meth use) are remarkable similar. Again- this is not healthy. Here: http://www.youramazingbrain.org/lovesex/sciencelove.htm

And please do me the service of actually *reading it.*

crazymonkie wrote:
Paisley wrote:
I beg to differ. There is no hope without faith.

Bullshit. Hope and faith are utterly unconnected. Hope is what one wants to have happen- desires, basically. Faith is the wishing for these things to happen. But you don't need faith to have hope

Quote:
What kind of semantical nonsense is this?

What the fuck do you mean, semantic nonsense? You're the one coming here with the idea that hope needs faith. Silly me, trying to explain how it's false equivocation.

Quote:
I hope that everything is working out for a greater good. I trust that it is. This is faith. Believers live by faith, not by fear.

And faith in god, or a god who judges, is a faith in fear. And a faith without evidence, I may add.

crazymonkie wrote:
Example: I hope I will be able to finish my 2 20-page research papers within a month, when classes are over. Do I need to have *faith* that i will? No. If I'm actually *doing something,* not merely faithfully believing that I will finish the work, I have hope. It's hope in action. Faith in action is not really doing the work- it's just believing something will happen.

Quote:
This is just another semantical ploy. You redefine faith according to your terms and then you say that hope does not entail faith. It's just pure silliness.

See, that's funny. Someone taking the twisted interpretation of faith from the neo-Platonic system, redefining the term as the only meaning, and then saying that I'm the one redefining it. You've got it backwards: I've expanded the meaning past your neo-Platonic nose. You've stuck to the standard Christian interpretation of faith and don't even know it.

Quote:
Example: I'm watching my team in the Super Bowl. Two minutes are left in the game and my team is behind by four points. We have the ball on our twenty - first and ten. I hope that my team will win the game. I believe that they will win the game. Why? Because I have a tremendous amount of faith in my QB and trust in his abilities to lead my team down the field for the winning TD. Do I know with absolute certitude that my  team will win. Of course not, that's why they call it hope and faith!

But what you're talking about here is faith *with* evidence. Faith in a god... or at least a transcendant god we can't experience until we die (and we can't know for sure what happens then) is faith *without* evidence. Which means we're talking about different things.

So actually, my bad on bringing up my faith versus hope thing with my papers.

Paisley wrote:
The believer doesn't subscribe to the atheist's definition of faith. Indeed, the atheist is not really qualified to speak on the subject of religious faith since he is, by definition, without it!

Oh bullmotherfuckingshit. I can't talk about religious faith if I don't have religious faith?!? Then why are you wasting bandwidth trying to talk to us about religious faith? Faith without evidence, of any kind, IS MEANINGLESS. It is speculation, that is all.

And the 'believer's definition of faith' is one narrow definition of faith. If one redefines faith as that which is required for other things, and that atheists don't have it by definition, then OF COURSE the definition is different!

crazymonkie wrote:
Paisly wrote:
And without trust there is no love.

Not really. People can love without trusting someone. Just think of any really bad abusive relationship. At least one of those people can be in love, but they can't trust that person. Or think about being in love with someone with mental issues. You can't trust them, but you can love them.

Okay, touche. I'm willing to grant you some kind of point here. But I would argue that anyone who is in an abusive relationship is not really in love.

And you'd be arguing the wrong side. Love doesn't have to be healthy; it can be sick. This is another No True Scotsman, BTW.

Quote:
However, there is the possibility of unconditional love.

Unconditional love is that which has no conditions. I think we can agree on that. Okay: No conditions. That means any or all abuse is ignored; any and all flaws are glossed over. Unconditional love is sick. There should *always* be conditions to love. Otherwise, abuse can happen. Hell, even if you're going to talk about, say, the love of a dog for its owner, the dog's love is not unconditional. It is long-suffering, yes, but if the dog gets beaten or abused enough, it *will* fight back. Similarly, unconditional love between humans is easy to abuse. I wouldn't trust any powerful being to unconditionally love me- the power differential alone would make that foolish and dangerous.

Quote:
That being said, I don't see how an atheist can account for unconditional love in his godless and spiritually-devoid world.

Well, that's simple: An atheist wouldn't want it! 

crazymonkie wrote:
Paisley wrote:
And in a world devoid of God, there is no possibility of everlasting love. This is the source of his existential angst.

Wow, that was a hell of a leap.

Quote:
What's the leap? The OP's mortality wasn't the only thing at issue here. He was also expressing fear at the prospect of losing his loved ones.  And it's certainly no leap to say that without postulating some kind of God there is no ground to believe in eternal love.

No, the OP's mortality *was* the only thing at stake here- until you came along and added your regurgitated thoughts about what the OP needs.

The leap was in your going from 'a world devoid of God' to 'this is the source of his existential angst.' You assumed so many things that I can't even begin to fill in the gaps. And again: Eternal/everlasting love is NOT healthy.

crazymonkie wrote:
Paisley wrote:
Correction. As an atheist, you have no reason to hope.

And you do? You back a god that sends people to eternal torment/torture because they refuse to bow and scrape before him.

No, I don't. But I do believe in judgment and justice.

Nice dodge.

crazymonkie wrote:
Your god fucked up, then decided to fix the problem in the most ass-backward way imaginable, while simultaneously saying he lied to 'his chosen people' (the Law doesn't matter any more, at least according to you) and saying he got his message spread to all corners of the earth, even though the VAST MAJORITY of people in history did *not.* And on top of that, his followers can't even agree on... well, anything. You'd think an all-powerful god would get his shit together enough to make it clear what the right thing to do is.

Straw-man argument. Evidently, you are only atheistic in respect with a particular depiction of God. Sorry to disappoint, but I don't share your view of the divine.

Well, fuck. This is why I don't like debating god-believers. The goalposts are out in the street before one realizes what's happened.

crazymonkie wrote:
Regardless of all that- you don't have love from your Jesus. You have threats and bribery. Hooray for you, and hooray for the rest of us who have to act like you're not out of your mind because your 'self-evident truths' have dominated the western world for ages.

Assuming that your worldview is correct, why does it really matter that I am deluding myself into believing in everlasting love, eternal life and God?

On a personal level, it doesn't. If you decide to take any of it outside your own little world, though.... Well, keep your damn peanut butter out of my chocolate, hein?

OrdinaryClay wrote:
If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.


Paisley
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crazymonkie wrote:Paisley

crazymonkie wrote:
Paisley wrote:
There is an inverse relationship between faith and fear. The more faith the less fear and vice versa.  And if there are religious people who are crippled by fear, then their faith is very weak indeed.

No, there really isn't. At least not when it comes to faith in some sort of interventionist god who claims to know what its doing but really seems awfully arbitrary or cruel. Those religious people who you claim have 'weak faith' may actually have stronger faith than you- or they might have a better understanding of what their religion is really about: FEARING GOD. This is *enshrined* in the doctrine. So tell me- how could a god that wants itself to be feared, and who explicitly tells its followers to fear it, somehow allow fear to *drop* with faith? It seems like it's more likely that god- your god, more specifically- wants more fear with more faith.

Straw-man argument. I don't subscribe to the theological caricature that you're are attempting to dismantle. If you're confusing me with a biblical literalist, then I'm afraid you're sorely mistaken. But just for good measure, what I am stating is actually biblical.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."

1 John 4:18 (KJV)

crazymonkie wrote:
Paisley wrote:
I said that without faith there is no trust; and without trust there is no love.

Precisely. And since atheists, according to your vision, have no faith... well, what do you think we think when we read this?

I'm not misrepresenting atheists. You're the ones who are saying that you are without faith. Indeed, you wear it as some kind of badge of honor! I'am simply requiring that atheists acknowledge the logical consequences of what it means to live a life without faith. 

crazymonkie wrote:
Paisley wrote:
That being said, I have encountered many atheists who are wont to criticize and lampoon faith.

Faith without evidence, yes.

I didn't say "faith without evidence." I said faith.  You keep attempting to qualify the term in the HOPE that you can extricate yourself from the intellectual knot that you now find yourself in. Obviously, it is not possible to function in this world without faith.  But that's your problem, not mine. I acknowledge that I must live this life by faith.

crazymonkie wrote:
Paisley wrote:
Certainly, atheists on this particular forum are inclined to do so. Hence, one does have to wonder how such an individual - who holds faith in such low esteem - functions in life in general and in personal relationships in particular.

EVIDENCE. You base your claims on evidence which comes from self-referential sources, and the sources you use for evidence outside these first sources have been disproven or are *highly* controversial. Hence- YOU are the one with the evidence problem here.

Evidence is subject to personal interpretation. Certainly, subjective experiences are subject  to personal interpretation. And taking into consideration that the vast majority of humankind subscribes to some kind of spiritual worldview, it would appear that you're in the minority. Evidently, your interpretation of life is not winning in the marketplace. So, actually, you're the one with the evidence problem.

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


deludedgod
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Quote:Evidently, your

Quote:

Evidently, your interpretation of life is not winning in the marketplace. So, actually, you're the one with the evidence problem.

That's ridiculous (more precisely, it is ad populum). Since when did we judge the evidential merits of a statement on the basis of the number of people who accepted it?

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


crazymonkie
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Paisley wrote:Straw-man

Paisley wrote:
Straw-man argument. I don't subscribe to the theological caricature that you're are attempting to dismantle. If you're confusing me with a biblical literalist, then I'm afraid you're sorely mistaken. But just for good measure, what I am stating is actually biblical.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."

1 John 4:18 (KJV)

So then, if you're not a Bible literalist (and I realize nobody can be anyway, considering the competing claims even in the Gospels and Epistles) then what's necessary for you? What parts are you taking and what are you ignoring? What's your evidence for god?

Let me clear the air just in case we start caricaturing each other again: I don't absolutely, positively KNOW there is no god at all. However, I've not seen compelling evidence for any sort of god; nowhere among the competing claims that both 'living' and 'dead' religions, as well as idiosyncratic creations- such as, apparently, yours- have I found any claims beyond 1)A book told me so (and so did everyone else's), 2)Personal experience (useless- non-repeatable and may be lacking in important details that the experiencer missed), 3)Wise people who know the book really well told me so (see [1]). If you can give me something other than that, you'll not only impress me- you'll basically have done what no believer in the supernatural has ever done: Give the possibility of a supernatural claim with stronger evidence than other claims.

Paisley wrote:
I'm not misrepresenting atheists. You're the ones who are saying that you are without faith. Indeed, you wear it as some kind of badge of honor! I'am simply requiring that atheists acknowledge the logical consequences of what it means to live a life without faith.

We are without a faith in *a god.* That's it. Nobody lives without faith to a degree. Let me emphasize that: TO A DEGREE!!!!! There are some things that don't need massive amounts of evidence, but when it comes to supernatural things, especially since the stakes are potentially so high (do YOU want to be reborn as a hungry ghost? I don't), we ask for very strong evidence. For me, and for many others, it hasn't been presented.

Paisley wrote:
I didn't say "faith without evidence." I said faith.

When it comes to supernatural claims, unless something really revolutionary has happened since I last looked, the evidence was pretty thin to nonexistent.

Quote:
You keep attempting to qualify the term in the HOPE

Ah hah, clever....

Quote:
...that you can extricate yourself from the intellectual knot that you now find yourself in. Obviously, it is not possible to function in this world without faith.  But that's your problem, not mine. I acknowledge that I must live this life by faith.

It's perfectly fine to live without faith, if the faith is unjustified. Your claims about needing god are unjustified. Hence, what we're talking about. Not about faith as a whole- but the OP needing god and you not seeing that god is not necessary. Damn, it took forever to get back to the original point.

crazymonkie wrote:
Paisley wrote:
Certainly, atheists on this particular forum are inclined to do so. Hence, one does have to wonder how such an individual - who holds faith in such low esteem - functions in life in general and in personal relationships in particular.

EVIDENCE. You base your claims on evidence which comes from self-referential sources, and the sources you use for evidence outside these first sources have been disproven or are *highly* controversial. Hence- YOU are the one with the evidence problem here.

Quote:
Evidence is subject to personal interpretation.

Not unless it comes from personal experience and nowhere else. If it's something that several people experienced, it can be quantified. If it didn't, it has to remain in the realm of speculation. And there *are* methods of figuring out if evidence is valid or reliable.

Quote:
Certainly, subjective experiences are subject to personal interpretation.

They also can't be trusted as empirical evidence. Unless they are repeatable, somehow. Which hasn't happened with spiritual/mystical stuff. Ever.

Quote:
And taking into consideration that the vast majority of humankind subscribes to some kind of spiritual worldview, it would appear that you're in the minority. Evidently, your interpretation of life is not winning in the marketplace. So, actually, you're the one with the evidence problem.

As deludedgod said, this an appeal to popularity. The vast majority of people 150 years ago thought black people were inferior to white people. The vast majority of people 700 years ago thought the sun revolved around the earth. And so on. It is not a valid argument.

OrdinaryClay wrote:
If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.