History Lesson

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History Lesson

Is there historical and scientific proof of Jesus?

It is interesting that when people seek historic and scientific proof of Jesus, they immediately discount the Bible as a reliable source.

If we look at the Bible simply as a historic document, it should be among the most reliable on record compared with others.

Historians routinely cite Herodotus as a key source of information. He wrote from 488 B.C. to 428 B.C. and the earliest copy of his work comes from 900 A.D. (1,300 years later). There are only eight known copies of his work.

By contrast, the New Testament of the Bible (with all its information about Jesus) was written between 40 A.D. and 100 A.D. The earliest known copy is from 130 A.D. and there are 5,000 known copies in Greek, 10,000 in Latin and 9,300 in other languages.

Still, to put to rest the notion that there is no historic and scientific proof of Jesus outside the Bible, we may look to Jewish historian Flavius Josephus and to Roman historian Carius Cornelius Tacitus - both well known and accepted.

Josephus, in the book Jewish Antiquities" wrote:

"At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. . . .And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time" (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1).

Tacitus, in writing about accusations that Nero burned the city of Rome and blamed it on Christians, said the following:

". . .Nero procured others to be accused, and inflicted exquisite punishment upon those people, who were in abhorrence for their crimes, and were commonly known by the name of Christians. They had their denomination from Christus (Christ, dm.), who in the reign of Tibertius was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate. . . .At first they were only apprehended who confessed themselves of that sect; afterwards a vast multitude discovered by them, all of which were condemned, not so much for the crime of burning the city, as for their enmity to mankind. . . ." (Tacitus, Annals, 15, 44).


Tapey
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 Tip black writing on a

 Tip black writing on a dark background doesn't work. It is rather annoying actually.

But onto your point, I really don't care whether he was or wasn't real. I'm sure there was some random dude named Jesus back then, I imagen It was a common enough name. I just merly state he wasn't the son of a god. Did the Jesus in the Bible exist? Did any historians mention the events that occur in the new testiment relating to jesus? Surely a historian must of mentioned him walking on water? Curing the sick with a touch? etc. You can bring as many historians as you like talking about Jesus but unless they were alive while jesus was and were living in the area jesus was and reffer to the things attributed to him it really doesn't count. Your little quote, Actually it is concidered partially genuine with some Christian interpolations. He was born 37 AD witch as it happens is after Jesus was ment to of died, meaning it has to be a second hand account. For something of this nature you need a first hand account, second hand accounts to prove the reliability of the main piece of evidence. He could easily of been misled. You are trying to prove something supernatural... you have to better than that.

 

After all that I do think there was a guy called jesus but he wasn't the son of a god.

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Since I haven't studied this

Since I haven't studied this issue, I remain uncertain about whether or not Jesus existed as a historical person.

I imagine you would have fun with Rook Hawkins though.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/compilation_of_works_from_rook_hawkins

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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try this

 

      Try this link;   #2.

 

        http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/16905

      

      I  could also mention a man named Apollodorius, who also preached a form of christianity, had 12 followers and was exicuted on a cross.

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What do you get when you mix

What do you get when you mix a book of myths with two corrupted historical sources?

Why, the OP, of course!

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Theist spam trolling. This

Theist spam trolling. This OP was copy and pasted from http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/historical-and-scientific-proof-of-jesus-faq.htm.

Cite your sources when you post.

This is two rules you've broken in just two posts. Lucky I'm not a mod.

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natural wrote:Theist spam

natural wrote:

Theist spam trolling. This OP was copy and pasted from http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/historical-and-scientific-proof-of-jesus-faq.htm.

Cite your sources when you post.

This is two rules you've broken in just two posts. Lucky I'm not a mod.

 

Probs a hit and run aswel

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


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Apologist wrote:Is there

Apologist wrote:

Is there historical and scientific proof of Jesus?

No.


Apologist wrote:

It is interesting that when people seek historic and scientific proof of Jesus, they immediately discount the Bible as a reliable source.

That would be because it is not a reliable source. It is a work of fiction created hundreds of years after the events it claims to detail. Events that science has proven did not occur.

Apologist wrote:


If we look at the Bible simply as a historic document, it should be among the most reliable on record compared with others.

No, it should be on the same shelves as Tolkein and Star Wars. It is a work of fiction that has absolutely no historical value at all.

Apologist wrote:


Historians routinely cite Herodotus as a key source of information. He wrote from 488 B.C. to 428 B.C. and the earliest copy of his work comes from 900 A.D. (1,300 years later). There are only eight known copies of his work.

By contrast, the New Testament of the Bible (with all its information about Jesus) was written between 40 A.D. and 100 A.D. The earliest known copy is from 130 A.D. and there are 5,000 known copies in Greek, 10,000 in Latin and 9,300 in other languages.

Not even remotely accurate. The bible as exists today, pre-english, wasn't fully compiled until more than a thousand years after the events it supposedly documented.

Apologist wrote:


Still, to put to rest the notion that there is no historic and scientific proof of Jesus outside the Bible, we may look to Jewish historian Flavius Josephus and to Roman historian Carius Cornelius Tacitus - both well known and accepted.

Pre-refuted in the Jesus Mythicist thread.

Apologist wrote:


Josephus, in the book Jewish Antiquities" wrote:

"At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. . . .And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time" (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1).

Tacitus, in writing about accusations that Nero burned the city of Rome and blamed it on Christians, said the following:

". . .Nero procured others to be accused, and inflicted exquisite punishment upon those people, who were in abhorrence for their crimes, and were commonly known by the name of Christians. They had their denomination from Christus (Christ, dm.), who in the reign of Tibertius was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate. . . .At first they were only apprehended who confessed themselves of that sect; afterwards a vast multitude discovered by them, all of which were condemned, not so much for the crime of burning the city, as for their enmity to mankind. . . ." (Tacitus, Annals, 15, 44).

Pre-refuted in the Jesus Mythicist thread.

 

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Dracos
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Jesus

Read the Dead Sea Scrolls.  The sermon on the mount was copied from a writing reliably dated to over 100 BC.  There are other plagerized passages as well.  The Jews lived in a country occupied by Rome.  They were jealous of Heracles.  They wanted their own Son O' God.  They invented Jesus.


pauljohntheskeptic
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Apologist wrote:Is there

Apologist wrote:

Is there historical and scientific proof of Jesus? 

No.

Historical - None of the writers who lived at the alleged time of Jesus wrote one word about him. Philo of Alexandria lived in Jerusalem during the time period Jesus was performing his magic act and gave no comment regarding it. Justus of Tiberias from Galilee from the time period wrote nary a word about Jesus or his followers.

Scientific - No DNA samples have been found with God sperm or the like.

Apologist wrote:


It is interesting that when people seek historic and scientific proof of Jesus, they immediately discount the Bible as a reliable source.

I imagine you discount the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Same thing, myths and legends.

Apologist wrote:


If we look at the Bible simply as a historic document, it should be among the most reliable on record compared with others.

If there were basis in the myths and legends and they were not contradictory in nature and filled with magic acts and desires of fearful humans lacking knowledge. If only I had bought Intel stock in 1974. Same thing different dream.

Apologist wrote:
 

Historians routinely cite Herodotus as a key source of information. He wrote from 488 B.C. to 428 B.C. and the earliest copy of his work comes from 900 A.D. (1,300 years later). There are only eight known copies of his work.

By contrast, the New Testament of the Bible (with all its information about Jesus) was written between 40 A.D. and 100 A.D. The earliest known copy is from 130 A.D. and there are 5,000 known copies in Greek, 10,000 in Latin and 9,300 in other languages.

The oldest piece of the New Testament is part of John 18 dating to about 125 CE. One little fragment is suddenly proof everything is real. This fragment still is almost 100 years after the events and provides no on-site witness. There are copies of the Egyptian Book of the Dead dating to the 18th dynasty (1570-1304 BCE) but that doesn't mean it has any more validity than the NT. There are also Sumerian texts regarding gods An and Ki dating to about 3000 BCE so there antiquity per your logic must mean all of the Sumerian myths and legends are based in reality. Myths are myths regardless of date.

Apologist wrote:


Still, to put to rest the notion that there is no historic and scientific proof of Jesus outside the Bible, we may look to Jewish historian Flavius Josephus and to Roman historian Carius Cornelius Tacitus - both well known and accepted.

Josephus, in the book Jewish Antiquities" wrote:

"At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. . . .And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time" (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1).

Tacitus, in writing about accusations that Nero burned the city of Rome and blamed it on Christians, said the following:

". . .Nero procured others to be accused, and inflicted exquisite punishment upon those people, who were in abhorrence for their crimes, and were commonly known by the name of Christians. They had their denomination from Christus (Christ, dm.), who in the reign of Tibertius was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate. . . .At first they were only apprehended who confessed themselves of that sect; afterwards a vast multitude discovered by them, all of which were condemned, not so much for the crime of burning the city, as for their enmity to mankind. . . ." (Tacitus, Annals, 15, 44).

These 2 examples have been debunked so many times you can just google it or seach this site for it.

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