just pretend...

shelley
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just pretend...

So the other day someone close to me came up and said:

"Do you think Obama would have been elected if he didn't pretend to believe in god?"

I ignored the fact that the question assumes Obama is actually an atheist and just said no.  The conversation proceeded for about 3-5 minutes about discrimination towards atheists in general.  Towards the end this person asked me if I would "just pretend" to believe.

Would you take this kind of comment as someone trying to be helpful or insulting?


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shelleymtjoy wrote:Would you

shelleymtjoy wrote:

Would you take this kind of comment as someone trying to be helpful or insulting?

It depends, am I running for office?  The person could be trying to be helpful, if you're offended by the question just respond with something like... "If it benefited you to pretend to be of the opposite sex, would you?"

 

 

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Comment

 

     I would take it has their mis-guided attempt to be helpful but has insulting to me.

 

     I  also believe Obama became a christian on the same day he decided to  run for office.

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 If I had to guess, I'd say

 If I had to guess, I'd say Obama would have always indicated "Spiritual but not religious."  He's certainly always known the value of religion as a social tool, and wouldn't overlook his "civic duty" to be a part of a congregation, but who was it... Socrates... I think... who said (paraphrased) that the ignorant believe religion is true, the smart know it is false, and the politicians know it is useful?

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Initially I thought it was a

Initially I thought it was a misguided attempt to be helpful... i.e. your life would be so much easier if you just pretended.  I was kinda insulted that the individual didn't think about how much it would bother me to "just pretend."

However I was thinking about it again last night.  This person is kinda in a transitional phase away from belief.  Now I'm starting to wonder if maybe *they* thought it would be easier if they decided to pretend - perhaps they were hoping I would say that it was okay or something. 


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 I would tend to agree the

 I would tend to agree the person involved seems to be looking for a way to make their own life easier. As one that was brought up in a very religious environment when I decided to leave it those that may have been offended at first I did not tell them.  After a while I concluded it was far easier to tell them no I won't go to mass with you as I'm an atheist than to put up with all the hassle caused by making excuses. In other cases, if there is no need to express your non-religious view don't unless it is an opportunity that overall makes a gain for you in some way. 

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Living in a deluded state is

Living in a deluded state is not necessarily an imposition at all. Living a lie however would, to me in any case, be unbearable. "Tangled web" and all that. Never worth it, no matter how appealing the notion to lie might first appear. I wouldn't be at all annoyed with the mate's suggestion but the answer would be a firm "no".

 

Besides, being an atheist has such great compensations - not least turning all religious occasions into high farce.

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Quote:Socrates... I

Quote:

Socrates... I think...

Seneca the Younger

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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 Don't all philosophers

 Don't all philosophers start with "S"?

(For the uninitiated, yes, that's a joke.)

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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shelleymtjoy wrote:So the

shelleymtjoy wrote:
So the other day someone close to me came up and said:

"Do you think Obama would have been elected if he didn't pretend to believe in god?"

I ignored the fact that the question assumes Obama is actually an atheist and just said no.  The conversation proceeded for about 3-5 minutes about discrimination towards atheists in general.  Towards the end this person asked me if I would "just pretend" to believe.

Would you take this kind of comment as someone trying to be helpful or insulting?

Given the demands of Israel for war on Iran do you think he could have been elected if he had not sucked up to Israel at the AIPAC convention? They all sucked up to Israel at the convention. So did Bush. So? The scandal is that a foreign country has a constituency in the US. They should be shipped off to Haifa just as the Francophiles should be put on a slow boat to Marsailles.

Pandering to constituencies is an American political tradition. Reagan was an atheist. Lincoln was. LBJ likely was as was Nixon. Bush I almost certainly was. One does not dis voters for any reason. Battles are not fought on the campaign trail else there is no point in campaigning.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Bush I

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Bush I almost certainly was.

Hmmmm, maybe I haven't been getting enough sleep lately. Yeah, that's my cue.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Given the demands of Israel for war on Iran do you think he could have been elected if he had not sucked up to Israel at the AIPAC convention? They all sucked up to Israel at the convention. So did Bush. So? The scandal is that a foreign country has a constituency in the US. They should be shipped off to Haifa just as the Francophiles should be put on a slow boat to Marsailles.

Pandering to constituencies is an American political tradition. Reagan was an atheist. Lincoln was. LBJ likely was as was Nixon. Bush I almost certainly was. One does not dis voters for any reason. Battles are not fought on the campaign trail else there is no point in campaigning.

wtf???

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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.

butterbattle wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Bush I almost certainly was.

Hmmmm, maybe I haven't been getting enough sleep lately. Yeah, that's my cue.

George H.W. Bush not Dubya Bush. A career civil servant up to his ass in Iran-Contra where he had no problem with Jews from Israel transfering arms to Muslims in Iran to help Catholics in Nicuragua. Perhaps my memory is failing but I do not remember hearing of him going to any church except on photo-op holy days. Nothing interesting happens in the US on Easter so his attendance is announced to the press.

Have I forgotten something?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Quote:Have I forgotten

Quote:

Have I forgotten something?

Yes. George HW Bush once declared that atheists should not be considered citizens. This makes your position somewhat unlikely.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Bush I almost certainly was.

Hmmmm, maybe I haven't been getting enough sleep lately. Yeah, that's my cue.

George H.W. Bush not Dubya Bush. A career civil servant up to his ass in Iran-Contra where he had no problem with Jews from Israel transfering arms to Muslims in Iran to help Catholics in Nicuragua. Perhaps my memory is failing but I do not remember hearing of him going to any church except on photo-op holy days. Nothing interesting happens in the US on Easter so his attendance is announced to the press.

Have I forgotten something?

Eh, I suppose that's somewhat less............shocking.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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deludedgod wrote:Quote:Have

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

Have I forgotten something?

Yes. George HW Bush once declared that atheists should not be considered citizens. This makes your position somewhat unlikely.

Maybe he's like Ted Haggard?

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Sherman: What will you do to

Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?

Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?

Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.

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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Given the

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Given the demands of Israel for war on Iran do you think he could have been elected if he had not sucked up to Israel at the AIPAC convention? They all sucked up to Israel at the convention. So did Bush. So? The scandal is that a foreign country has a constituency in the US. They should be shipped off to Haifa just as the Francophiles should be put on a slow boat to Marsailles.

Pandering to constituencies is an American political tradition. Reagan was an atheist. Lincoln was. LBJ likely was as was Nixon. Bush I almost certainly was. One does not dis voters for any reason. Battles are not fought on the campaign trail else there is no point in campaigning.

What's with you and the Jews?!?!

Reagan, the guy who stood by and watched the AIDS situation become a pandemic because he thought they were being judged by god? Or are we talking about a different Reagan?

That quote about Bush senior saying atheists shouldn't be allowed to vote is apparently not solid. I've seen several times that it was unverified if that conversation ever even really happened. It doesn't sound like something that the Bushs wouldn't say, just that the quote itself is apparently on shaky ground. BUT, at what point did he say he was an atheist or do ANYTHING to suggest that he was? Everything you've said gives no evidence whatsoever to this claim.

Lincoln, LBJ, and Nixon? I've never heard anything like this. Can you point us toward any evidence of this? Or is this the same as your claim about Reagan and Bush?


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OP: it's still kind of

OP: it's still kind of shocking to see people reaching out for help. Like you said, it sounds like she may be trying to work some stuff out for herself and is bouncing it off of you.

I had a conversation with a guy at a lakehouse party a couple of years ago. He kept starting up the religion conversation wtih me but I was being slippery about it. I usually don't get into that stuff with my friends to avoid hurting their feelings (again). Later I realized that he wanted to talk to me about it because he was working some stuff out.

Hide it? For survival, sure. Otherwise, no.