A convenient spin on 'The Dark Ages'
Offline This is probably old, but I'm sure many haven't seen this.
It won't surprise many here that the spin I speak of comes from the "History" Channel. I happened to run accross the page on history channel's website for their special on the dark ages. The thing that immediately jumps off the screen is the tagline "600 years of degenerate, godless, inhumane behavior"
Now reguardless of the history of the dark ages, the implication here is plainly transparent. A reasonable person would admit that religion is one of the main causes for the dark ages, and perhaps the main cause for their 600 year duration. Am I wrong about this?
Here the xian spin machine implies that lack of belief caused the problems of the time, and once again associates the "godless" with immorality.
Putting misinformation about the secular into popular culture is what the religious do so well. It's why they win the fight for the credulous minds more often than not. Repeat a lie often enough and people will not only believe it, but they will repeat it themselves. I plan on starting a thread just based on that concept as soon as I can get my thoughts together.
Here's the link to the page
"They always say the same thing; 'But evolution is only a theory!!' Which is true, I guess, and it's good they say that I think, it gives you hope that they feel the same about the theory of Gravity and they might just float the f**k away."
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There was a time when I would have found such...hypocrisy (not even remotely strong enough a word) from Christians to be a combination of funny and pathetic. Now I'm desensitized to it. Nonetheless, the absurdity of using the phrase "godless" to describe the aptly named Dark Ages is just...well, there is only one word I can think of which connotes that degree of absurdity. Christian.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
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Deludedgod, I've been thinking about something recently, and it may sound flippant at first, but I'm dead serious. Do the Christians have anything right?
I've been trying to think of a single Christian doctrine, or a single principle even, that's demonstrably scientifically or philosophically correct. I can't think of one. Can you?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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After thinking about it for a few minutes...no.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
Aww, c'mon, Christianity ain't so bad, once you eliminate the the more stupid and offensive bits, like that nasty Crucifixion crap, and the illogical Salvation idea....
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
LOL... What I'm asking, Bob, is whether or not anything that is unique to Christianity is also correct. "Love thy neighbor" isn't Christian. It's just common sense, and every religion worth a damn has some variant of it.
Taking out the stuff that Christians do, just like everyone else on the planet, like bring their shut in neighbors home baked apple pies and give to charity, is there any part of the actual Christian religious dogma that is demonstrably correct scientifically?
I'm thinking of major Christian doctrines:
1) Original sin... totally bunk
2) Man's inherent sinfulness (regardless of the cause) - totally bunk
3) Afterlife (admittedly not only Christian, but still a big part of it) - totally bunk
4) Homosexuality is wrong and unnatural - totally bunk
5) Marriage/monogamy/sexuality according to Paul/Jesus/Yahweh - totally bunk, or so totally bunk that we can say the parts that do match with reality are incidental.
6) Man has dominion over animals - bunk
7) 6000 year human history - bunk
9) Flood - bunk
10) 95% of the "history" of the Jews - bunk
I mean... geez... I'm trying really hard. I'm honestly not trying to just be a dick. I just can't think of a Christian doctrine rooted in fact. I'm not saying Christian churches don't have good people, or that they don't follow decent tenets, regardless of what they're taught.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I think I would go further I think all the 10 commandents can and should be broken in at least some circumstances. Obviously the god ones are completely meaningless.
For example thou shalt not kill (it doesnt say murder) is actually in some circumstances an immoral action (or lack of action)
If the bible said thou shalt not kill unless in exceptional circumstances ie defence of the weak/yourself then I might have some sympathy.
Thou shalt honour your father regardless of circumstances bollocks
Thou shalt not steal ( if you can't obtain food by more social methods) then go for it.
I don't think christianity can have everything wrong as a lot of its stuff it just inherited morality with biological origins (golden rule etc). I suppose you could argue it contributed to secularism unlike other religions before it but lets face it most christians until recently ignored that
I've got one: All you need is faith to believe in Jesus. Translation into scientific terms: The human mind is very flexible and faith can cause a human to believe in obviously false claims.
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...Christianity (especially its "apologetics"
is all spin. There is literally nothing else there. Of course a reasonable person would admit that religion (...let's call it what it is: Christianity and more specifically: the Roman Catholic Church,) is indeed not only responsible for the start of the Dark Ages, but also its duration. Here's a scandal of the Religion Of Love: the practice of burning people at the stake endured for five centuries. Here's another one: the Religion Of Love considers sexual repression to be such a good thing, that it has allowed the, shall we say, abuse of altar boys to continue for at least a millennium, if not nearly its entire history. (Oh, but modern society, television, rock'n'roll, and the Second Vatican Council are responsible for that!)
As for the fight for credulous minds, don't discount religious education, and personal ties. After all, it's usually kind of hard to believe that the nice guy who leads your weekly neighborhood Sunday worship would actually support something like the Inquisition. Indeed, as an individual, he might not support it; but his religion does, or at least it did. Not only that, but if you catch minds young enough, you can, by controlling the environment, make anything sound reasonable. Add to this the talent that religion salesmen of any sort have for making their ideas sound initially reasonable, and you've got yourself all kinds of new believers.
As for the just plain wrongness of citing "godless" people as being to blame for the Dark Ages...well...anything I might say would just be preaching to the choir (...so to speak...) here.
Conor
What, are you serious? Of course not! Really, you just got to this now? You've said as much before in passing (at least, I thought you did).
It's not even good fiction! I don't even get the "it's good fiction" bit about the bible. It's a boring-ass book. I can name hundreds of books I'd rather read, including the vacuous page-turners of Tom Clancy and his ilk. Actually, on second thought, Clancy holds the same reverence for firearms as the bible does for the "begats" and Melville did for whaling. Maybe not.
Anyway, ignoring that ridiculous digression, if any of us -- high as kites, drunk, or otherwise mentally incapacitated -- put ourselves to writing a book, we could probably come up with something just as profound.
Look at the book of John. He was crazy stoned. What was it? "In the beginning was the word, and the word was the beginning, and all the beginningness was godly and God gave us beginning ... ness."
What wisdom could possibly come from that shit? It's like a bunch of stoners getting together to make a bridge, and then telling everyone they really know down in their hearts that the bridge is, like, totally safe. Am I setting foot on that rickety-ass poor excuse for a philosophical foundation? No way. Not for all the shekels in the desert.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
... and the total nonsense ... and ... actually, how many words would we be left with then? Don't even try to tell me the Song of Solomon is a good love poem. That's just ign'ant.
"Your eyes are like doves"
...
"our couch is leafy"
Leafy? Dude, what the fuck?
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
Everyone is equal before god despite race, social or economic class gender, etc... Replace god with state and I think that would be a pretty good statement. Although there is all that stuff about rich men not being able to get into hevean and unbabtised babies being stuck in limbo so I guess that doesn't count. Oh well I tried.
Wow, that was a stretch.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Please don't insult stoner wisdom by comparing it to the bible. At least potheads try to make sense. And, their bridge would be pretty at least. As you noted, the bible isn't even a good read.
"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.
Well, God really isn't able to stop iron chariots.
So that's one technically correct fact.
Oh; and while there certainly was not a global flood, I think the Bible might also be technically correct to predict that a flood of the specified magnitude would kill everything on the planet.
(Of course, Noah would've bought it too... but who cares about the minor details, right?
)
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
LOL, Will... you certainly have a way with perspective. I've probably said flippantly that there's nothing right about Christianity, but it just recently occurred to me that it might be literally true. I mean, you'd actually have to try very hard to build an entire life system/philosophy that was literally wrong about everything... wouldn't you?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Did you ever notice you can anything look good or bad by selective presentation? For example, at the time the primitive Aztecs were making quick human sacrifices without ritual torture the civilized Europeans were using torture and burning at the stake for the sake of their god.
There is another problem. The start and end of these Dark Ages have no agreed dates. And if one chooses to look at architecture one can make a case for it being one the of the golden ages as some of the tallest cathedrals in Europe were built during it. Gregorian chants may not be to our taste but this art form flourished in these Dark Ages.
How much of this should be blamed on religion and how much on the centuries long cold spell that is coincident with it? And how much is to be blamed on the collapse of Rome in a political and economic debacle?
While one can say the Church was against learning and therefore ... it does not stand up to scrutiny. Please feel free to name ALL the Greek and Roman learning which would have prevented it. If you accept the challenge explain how Platonic philosophy would have improved sanitation. What was clearly lost was the ability of Rome to organize massive public works efforts. I know of no Christian prohibition of such things.
While the Romans did understand fresh water allowed larger populations I know of no understanding that it improved sanitation. In addition they had so many diseases, none of whose cause was known, it is doubtful reducing a small percentage of them would have registered on them as they had not invented statistics. Besides, before Pasteur would could not and did not criticize Christians for a lack of sanitation.
As for fresh water via aqueducts when they were destroyed the population of Rome fell from over a million to maybe 50,000. That would be a warning to anyone not to have any city dependent upon structures outside the city which could be destroyed.
If I should see this program I will have more specific comments but I doubt it is more than a rehash of superficial ideas I have seen over the years.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
I've seen people claim that "it was called the Dark Ages because no one knew about Jesus"...
*facepalm*
Angry e-mail away!
-Triften