explaining the invented Hebrew and OT

A_Nony_Mouse
atheist
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
explaining the invented Hebrew and OT

Explaining this is very difficult. The reason for the difficulty is that so much nonsense is written about bibleland and is incorporated into unrelated matters (see that there are not words to use. See http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/16907 for details.)

This is one case in which I came close to describing the problem with claiming the OT is preserved "older" written material. Take it for what it is worth.



> Crap. Older texts would have been copied in the original style by
> later scribes. The usual thing that happens with such texts is, that
> copyists try to keep the original intact, but as the old-fashioned
> language is not well understood any more, they will start introducing
> errors and misunderstandings. But they will not start rewriting the
> original document in their contemporary style, because the original
> opaque and cryptic style will be felt to have religious, cultic or
> occult significance of its own - if it feels unintelligible, the
> faithful will only see this as evidence of the supernatural origin of
> the text.

    I have been over this many times. I will do it again in case you missed it.

    If you want copying in a particular style then you obviously have to have preserved written copies. Do you agree? And they have to be from many generations before to lose their meaning. In fact they have to be forgotten for a long time and rediscovered else the meaning would have been constantly
conveyed as we can still understand old English.

    If you agree with the current save that the "jews" started as migrants who settled as farmers and goatherds in the hill country what are they doing with written material? In those days writing was only associated with the educated in cities. Are you going to make a special pleading for these dirt farmers to
salvage the idea they had written material?

    Lets say that you are. You then also must say they used writing solely for the purpose of recording events in their history, correct?

    Lets agree that they did.

    As they were dirt farmers and goatherds who migrating into the hill country these stories are not their history.

    So what are they and why would they have them?

    Lets say you have a credible guess as to that. Then I go to your saying they were copied as an explanation of the styles of the language. So from the oldest times we have these styles. From every other inscription we find something which believers say requires and expert opinion to distinguish from Phoenician. They styles you are talking about do not need an expert opinion. So we go from a period of clearly Hebrew, to needing and expert opinion, and then in the 1st c. AD back to a style that is again clearly Hebrew.

    Can you explain that? No special pleadings are permitted after I remind you this is the only example where a written language can exist, disappear for centuries and then reappear.

    I would not bring this up if in fact there were a clear Hebrew language which did not need expert opinion from the "oldest" book to the DSS copy of Isaiah to identify it as Hebrew.

    But it is worse. We not only have a period where expert opinion is required to distinguish Phoenician from Hebrew but that hebrew completely vanishes in favor of Aramaic until one document among the DSS is found. So we have real Hebrew, a sudden change to near Phoenician, a complete conversion to Aramaic and then Hebrew reappears in the 1st c. AD.

    I await your explanation of how all that is possible even with the most convoluted anti-Occam explanation.

    Or my suggestion that Hebrew is an invented language which started being invented in the mid 1st c BC. That addressed the oldest physical evidence of a Hebrew which is the Isaiah DSS. There on NO physical evidence for a clearly hebrew language older than that. Prior to that there is only the "expert opinion hebrew" followed by Aramaic.

    You would have it that a real Hebrew preceded the "expert opinion hebrew." I see no way to make the plausible. But maybe you will surprise me by doing so. Without special pleadings of course.

-----

    I can start over with you do not agree with the hill migrant save if you will tell me your pet theory which I expect to be consistent with the findings of archaeology.

--
Is the evidence linking Israel to 9/11 still classified? If so, why?
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 4021
  http://www.giwersworld.org/holo/nizgas3.html a4
 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


spin
spin's picture
Posts: 188
Joined: 2008-10-29
User is offlineOffline
It was bad enough the first time round

You still know fuck-all about what you are talking about. The language is apparently beyond your capabilities. You are so confused about the data, you make little sense. Your information is inadequate to totally wrong. What can be said of anything you want to make out of this mess of yours? All it seems you are doing is dredging up a repeat of your previous errors. I'd request that moderation put an end to this, another silly thread of yours, until such times as you can cite scholarly literature to give some credence to your claptrap.

 

 

spin

Trust the evidence, Luke


A_Nony_Mouse
atheist
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
spin wrote:You still know

spin wrote:

You still know fuck-all about what you are talking about. The language is apparently beyond your capabilities. You are so confused about the data, you make little sense. Your information is inadequate to totally wrong. What can be said of anything you want to make out of this mess of yours? All it seems you are doing is dredging up a repeat of your previous errors. I'd request that moderation put an end to this, another silly thread of yours, until such times as you can cite scholarly literature to give some credence to your claptrap. 

spin

You might take a look at the article I posted under the title "Insideous insertion of religious nonsense into legitimate subjects" for the trends in history and how the "scholarly" literature cited by the history book authors is barely beyond the believer level.

I am aware you do not like what I post. I am also aware you post nothing of your own. I am further aware it is easier to repeat "you are wrong" than to recite what you consider to be correct.

I ceased participating in our previous exchange upon realizing you were never going to recite what you consider to be correct and that the "you are wrong"s would never rise above that.

I see no point in starting another round based upon nothing but that kind of exchange.

Should you be interested here is an Aramaic inscription and its translation. Note the date. http://www.giwersworld.org/images/aramaic-1.jpg Note the "font" of the Aramaic letters.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


spin
spin's picture
Posts: 188
Joined: 2008-10-29
User is offlineOffline
Hello, breakfast

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

spin wrote:

You still know fuck-all about what you are talking about. The language is apparently beyond your capabilities. You are so confused about the data, you make little sense. Your information is inadequate to totally wrong. What can be said of anything you want to make out of this mess of yours? All it seems you are doing is dredging up a repeat of your previous errors. I'd request that moderation put an end to this, another silly thread of yours, until such times as you can cite scholarly literature to give some credence to your claptrap. 

spin

You might take a look at the article I posted under the title "Insideous insertion of religious nonsense into legitimate subjects" for the trends in history and how the "scholarly" literature cited by the history book authors is barely beyond the believer level.

I am aware you do not like what I post.

It's not a matter of "like". You post stuff that in no way reflects the available evidence. In fact you show no knowledge of the available evidence and no willingness to find out.

Look at this stuff from your opening post in this thread:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
But it is worse. We not only have a period where expert opinion is required to distinguish Phoenician from Hebrew but that hebrew completely vanishes in favor of Aramaic until one document among the DSS is found. So we have real Hebrew, a sudden change to near Phoenician, a complete conversion to Aramaic and then Hebrew reappears in the 1st c. AD.

I have told you about letters from Arad and Lachish written circa 700 BCE. There is nothing strange about the Hebrew of those letters and there is plenty of it. It was about this time that the Phoenician language was headed for extinction.

Now please cite all the Aramaic monumental inscriptions or Aramaic letters in Judea from the period of 700 BCE to the time of the writing of the 4Q542, 4Q365 and 1QIsaiahA. Oh, yeah, right. You can't, because you don't know what you're talking about.

And the period 500 - 330 BCE was when the Persians administered the Judea area and they used Aramaic as their lingua franca. There just aren't any inscriptions or letters, Hebrew or Aramaic. Your basic proposition that no Hebrew inscriptions means that there was no Hebrew is totally baseless. No Hebrew inscriptions, as with no Aramaic inscriptions, doesn't tell you much at all. Wouldn't you expect Aramaic inscriptions, seeing as the place was administered by the Persians?

You of course have already understood that the Persians couldn't have administered the area as there were no Aramaic inscriptions.

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
I am also aware you post nothing of your own. I am further aware it is easier to repeat "you are wrong" than to recite what you consider to be correct.

I ceased participating in our previous exchange upon realizing you were never going to recite what you consider to be correct and that the "you are wrong"s would never rise above that.

I see no point in starting another round based upon nothing but that kind of exchange.

Should you be interested here is an Aramaic inscription and its translation. Note the date. http://www.giwersworld.org/images/aramaic-1.jpg Note the "font" of the Aramaic letters.

So that you know, the font is actually the Hebrew square font. What you see on the left of the image is the first six lines of a transcription of the Aramaic section of the bilingual Tell-Fekheriyeh inscription, using Hebrew characters. Tell Fekheriyeh is in the north of Syria and totally irrelevant to what you were crapping on about regarding the Jews.

 

spin

Trust the evidence, Luke


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15742
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
WHATEVER YOU DO DON'T SPELL

WHATEVER YOU DO DON'T SPELL OUT HIS NAME! THE GREAT GOD OF HAMBI WILL SMITE YOU..............

Now where did I leave my rabbit's feet?

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


A_Nony_Mouse
atheist
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
spin wrote:A_Nony_Mouse

spin wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

spin wrote:

You still know fuck-all about what you are talking about. The language is apparently beyond your capabilities. You are so confused about the data, you make little sense. Your information is inadequate to totally wrong. What can be said of anything you want to make out of this mess of yours? All it seems you are doing is dredging up a repeat of your previous errors. I'd request that moderation put an end to this, another silly thread of yours, until such times as you can cite scholarly literature to give some credence to your claptrap. 

spin

You might take a look at the article I posted under the title "Insideous insertion of religious nonsense into legitimate subjects" for the trends in history and how the "scholarly" literature cited by the history book authors is barely beyond the believer level.

I am aware you do not like what I post.

It's not a matter of "like". You post stuff that in no way reflects the available evidence. In fact you show no knowledge of the available evidence and no willingness to find out.

Look at this stuff from your opening post in this thread:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
But it is worse. We not only have a period where expert opinion is required to distinguish Phoenician from Hebrew but that hebrew completely vanishes in favor of Aramaic until one document among the DSS is found. So we have real Hebrew, a sudden change to near Phoenician, a complete conversion to Aramaic and then Hebrew reappears in the 1st c. AD.

I have told you about letters from Arad and Lachish written circa 700 BCE. There is nothing strange about the Hebrew of those letters and there is plenty of it. It was about this time that the Phoenician language was headed for extinction.

Now please cite all the Aramaic monumental inscriptions or Aramaic letters in Judea from the period of 700 BCE to the time of the writing of the 4Q542, 4Q365 and 1QIsaiahA. Oh, yeah, right. You can't, because you don't know what you're talking about.

And the period 500 - 330 BCE was when the Persians administered the Judea area and they used Aramaic as their lingua franca. There just aren't any inscriptions or letters, Hebrew or Aramaic. Your basic proposition that no Hebrew inscriptions means that there was no Hebrew is totally baseless. No Hebrew inscriptions, as with no Aramaic inscriptions, doesn't tell you much at all. Wouldn't you expect Aramaic inscriptions, seeing as the place was administered by the Persians?

You of course have already understood that the Persians couldn't have administered the area as there were no Aramaic inscriptions.

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
I am also aware you post nothing of your own. I am further aware it is easier to repeat "you are wrong" than to recite what you consider to be correct.

I ceased participating in our previous exchange upon realizing you were never going to recite what you consider to be correct and that the "you are wrong"s would never rise above that.

I see no point in starting another round based upon nothing but that kind of exchange.

Should you be interested here is an Aramaic inscription and its translation. Note the date. http://www.giwersworld.org/images/aramaic-1.jpg Note the "font" of the Aramaic letters.

So that you know, the font is actually the Hebrew square font. What you see on the left of the image is the first six lines of a transcription of the Aramaic section of the bilingual Tell-Fekheriyeh inscription, using Hebrew characters. Tell Fekheriyeh is in the north of Syria and totally irrelevant to what you were crapping on about regarding the Jews.

spin

To repeat, I am not going to engage in your style of exchange.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
atheist
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:WHATEVER YOU

Brian37 wrote:

WHATEVER YOU DO DON'T SPELL OUT HIS NAME! THE GREAT GOD OF HAMBI WILL SMITE YOU..............

Now where did I leave my rabbit's feet?

Smiting and smoting like Robin Hood
I wish could kick the habit
and give up smoting for good.

 

 

 

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


spin
spin's picture
Posts: 188
Joined: 2008-10-29
User is offlineOffline
Understandable

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
To repeat, I am not going to engage in your style of exchange.

Quite an understandable reaction from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about and whose m.o. is to find stuff on internet he can abuse. You'd do better -- by the way -- with some of the standard works at a university library.

 

 

spin

Trust the evidence, Luke


A_Nony_Mouse
atheist
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
spin wrote:A_Nony_Mouse

spin wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
To repeat, I am not going to engage in your style of exchange.

Quite an understandable reaction from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about and whose m.o. is to find stuff on internet he can abuse. You'd do better -- by the way -- with some of the standard works at a university library. 

spin

You got the last word in. Be happy.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


spin
spin's picture
Posts: 188
Joined: 2008-10-29
User is offlineOffline
Horses for courses

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
You got the last word in. Be happy.

It was not for your benefit at this stage, as you are clearly uninterested in discussing the facts. All you want to do is this:

I want to make sure that anyone who comes upon this thread without having seen your prior efforts also knows exactly what you're doing:

  1. You refuse to engage with any of the relevant evidence.
  2. You can't understand the languages or read the scripts, yet you think you can say something relevant about them in all your lack of knowledge.
  3. You have already decided, obviously without evidence, what you want the situation to be.
  4. You have unstated motivation behind your unsupported claims.

Now you can happily continue with what you were doing:

 

 

spin

Trust the evidence, Luke


A_Nony_Mouse
atheist
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

spin wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
You got the last word in. Be happy.

It was not for your benefit at this stage, as you are clearly uninterested in discussing the facts. All you want to do is this:

I want to make sure that anyone who comes upon this thread without having seen your prior efforts also knows exactly what you're doing:

  1. You refuse to engage with any of the relevant evidence.
  2. You can't understand the languages or read the scripts, yet you think you can say something relevant about them in all your lack of knowledge.
  3. You have already decided, obviously without evidence, what you want the situation to be.
  4. You have unstated motivation behind your unsupported claims.

Now you can happily continue with what you were doing:

 

 

spin

 

Fitting the Old Testament into known ancient history

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/17017

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


spin
spin's picture
Posts: 188
Joined: 2008-10-29
User is offlineOffline
Squirming

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

spin wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
You got the last word in. Be happy.

It was not for your benefit at this stage, as you are clearly uninterested in discussing the facts. All you want to do is this:

I want to make sure that anyone who comes upon this thread without having seen your prior efforts also knows exactly what you're doing:

  1. You refuse to engage with any of the relevant evidence.
  2. You can't understand the languages or read the scripts, yet you think you can say something relevant about them in all your lack of knowledge.
  3. You have already decided, obviously without evidence, what you want the situation to be.
  4. You have unstated motivation behind your unsupported claims.

Now you can happily continue with what you were doing:

 

 

spin

 

Fitting the Old Testament into known ancient history

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/17017

I guess trying to change the subject is an understandable squirm. I'd do it if I had to defend the crap you put in your o.p.

 

 

spin

Trust the evidence, Luke