A need for nondestructive secularization?

bluliite
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A need for nondestructive secularization?

Secularists (particularly the arguments of the so-called "new atheists&quotEye-wink argue to try to diminish, if not, eradicate religion. Yet even assuming that the almost 7 billion+ people on this planet had access to a secular education, decent living standards, and life prospects how could this even be possible? And how are we defining religion here? I have yet to hear the new atheists, or anyone for that matter, overturn this argument in a convincing way.

Also, since religious communities have been pushed into modernity (especially in the Islamic world) largely through military ventures and the imposition of free markets, the additional demand of secularization on a Western model has been quite overbearing, especially if we're to agree that capitalist globalization diminishes traditional values and the sense of what is sacred between people and their community. Doesn't it seem that the attacks of 9/11 and the resurgence of religion (especially of the extreme kind) after the fall of the Soviet Union is largely the result of the secular project of modernization (especially in places like Eastern Europe, the Balkans, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.) which has been experienced as a trauma, with an absence of any sort of credible moral virtue to lend legitimacy to a de-secularized political re-orientation? I think this process of secularization has been received as a violent and poor alternative to traditional worldviews that still hold communities together, however well or poorly they may achieve this goal.


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I think we should try to

I think we should try to move towards a more secular world, it's that we have to be careful how we do it.

 

Just because a group wants a secular government, doesn't mean I'll support it.

 

 

 


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No one has a response at

No one has a response at least for the first question? Really?


The Doomed Soul
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bluliite wrote:No one has a

bluliite wrote:

No one has a response at least for the first question? Really?

You mean this?

bluliite wrote:

Secularists (particularly the arguments of the so-called "new atheists&quotEye-wink argue to try to diminish, if not, eradicate religion. Yet even assuming that the almost 7 billion+ people on this planet had access to a secular education, decent living standards, and life prospects how could this even be possible?

 

Because, if im not mistaken, that would involve us solving every single problem, the human race faces on this damn little planet ...

 

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bluliite wrote: And how are

bluliite wrote:

 And how are we defining religion here?

You're making this argument so you should define religion.  How can anyone fully respond to your argument when they don't even know how you are defining what is religions and what is secular?


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bluliite wrote:... argue to

bluliite wrote:

... argue to try to diminish, if not, eradicate religion. Yet even assuming that the almost 7 billion+ people on this planet had access to a secular education, decent living standards, and life prospects how could this even be possible?

Let's replace one word to see how lame your 'argument' is:

lame ass argument wrote:
... argue to try to diminish, if not, eradicate slavery. Yet even assuming that the almost 7 billion+ people on this planet had access to a secular education, decent living standards, and life prospects how could this even be possible?

There was a time when slavery was the norm. It was widespread, and people like you would make lame-ass 'arguments' like "How could it even be possible to diminish, if not eradicate slavery?"

They, too, thought they were very clever, just like you. And yet, here we are in the 21st century and slavery has all but been eliminated.

How was slavery eliminated? By spreading the word, by influencing people's opinions and perceptions, by speaking out against it.

And that's the same way we plan to diminish, if not eliminate religion, which, in case you haven't figured it out yet, is slavery of the mind.

Quote:
And how are we defining religion here?

I define it as dogmatic belief based on faith rather than non-dogmatic belief based on good reasons. That's what I'm fighting against.

Quote:
I have yet to hear the new atheists, or anyone for that matter, overturn this argument in a convincing way.

What makes you think it's such a good argument? It's actually just a question or two. You have not actually made a real argument.

Quote:
Also, since religious communities have been pushed into modernity (especially in the Islamic world) largely through military ventures and the imposition of free markets, the additional demand of secularization on a Western model has been quite overbearing, especially if we're to agree that capitalist globalization diminishes traditional values and the sense of what is sacred between people and their community. Doesn't it seem that the attacks of 9/11 and the resurgence of religion (especially of the extreme kind) after the fall of the Soviet Union is largely the result of the secular project of modernization (especially in places like Eastern Europe, the Balkans, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.) which has been experienced as a trauma, with an absence of any sort of credible moral virtue to lend legitimacy to a de-secularized political re-orientation? I think this process of secularization has been received as a violent and poor alternative to traditional worldviews that still hold communities together, however well or poorly they may achieve this goal.

I've got one word for you: Scandinavia.

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bluliite
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"I've got one word for you:

"I've got one word for you: Scandinavia."

Could you elaborate?


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bluliite wrote:"I've got one

bluliite wrote:

"I've got one word for you: Scandinavia."

Could you elaborate?

Religion has dimished over the last one or two hundred years in all the Scandinavian countries, without the help of any outside pressure like in the eastern european countries.

Through education and a natural "secularisation" as you call it, religion is simply vanishing: dying a natural death, without any of the traumas you suggest.

I imagine that's what Natural means.

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Quote:... assuming that the

Quote:

... assuming that the almost 7 billion+ people on this planet had access to a secular education, decent living standards, and life prospects how could this even be possible?

 

You got it with your first guess. Education untarnished by dogmatic interference and elevation of myth beyond its historical sociological role.

 

Quote:

And how are we defining religion here?

 

As others have said. We're not. You are ... or at least you should be since you brought it up.

 

Quote:

... since religious communities have been pushed into modernity (especially in the Islamic world) largely through military ventures and the imposition of free markets, the additional demand of secularization on a Western model has been quite overbearing, especially if we're to agree that capitalist globalization diminishes traditional values and the sense of what is sacred between people and their community.

 

Who agrees anything of the sort? In fact your whole assertion is made up of smaller assertions, none of which you seem to feel the need to explain, let alone justify. Go off and think about what you're trying to say and then come back with a cogent statement - preferably one which does not make itself contingent on such an amazingly arrogant presumption regarding what "we're to agree". You can start by explaining why you see secularisation as a "demand" which is "overbearing". I live in a society where secularisation has been an agent of liberation from traditional values imposed on people which may have been deemed "sacred" by their imposers but which contributed mightily to their lot of misery at the time.

 

Quote:

Doesn't it seem that the attacks of 9/11 and the resurgence of religion (especially of the extreme kind) after the fall of the Soviet Union is largely the result of the secular project of modernization (especially in places like Eastern Europe, the Balkans, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.) which has been experienced as a trauma, with an absence of any sort of credible moral virtue to lend legitimacy to a de-secularized political re-orientation?

 

No.

 

And you seem to misunderstand the term which you yourself introduced - "secularisation". Moreover, your subsequent use of the term "absence of any sort of credible moral virtue" suggests you have a seriously jaundiced and narrow view of what it means, and even less of an understanding of the political processes you refer to.

 

Quote:

I think this process of secularization has been received as a violent and poor alternative to traditional worldviews that still hold communities together, however well or poorly they may achieve this goal.

 

What "traditional worldviews" are these , then? And please explain how they promoted "moral virtue" in the previous political processes to which the people you refer to were subjected?

 

A lot of assertion, in other words, and little or no sense. You really need to think things out a little more before you climb up on your soap-box again.

 

 

Oh, and here's the text of a speech made by the Norwegian poet Arnulf Øverland to Oslo University students in 1933 (for which he famously became the last man in all of Scandinavia to be tried for blasphemy - he was acquitted of course). Just so you realise how far ahead Scandinavia has been for a long time over many other western soceties in extricating itself from dogmatic anti-intellectual "traditional values". Norway still has a state church actually. It's trotted out at christmas and spends the rest of the time arguing amongst itself over gay bishops. Meanwhile Norwegians just get on with the important stuff - like displaying "credible moral virtue" in their running of a secularly inclusive society.

http://wordofman.blogspot.com/2008/08/christianity-tenth-plague.html

 

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I stopped reading after the

I stopped reading after the opening sentence:

"Secularists (particularly the arguments of the so-called "new atheists&quotEye-winkEye-wink argue to try to diminish, if not, eradicate religion."

I am tired of hearing the term 'new atheists'

Same non-belief but with the ability to discuss the subject online and print books without being put to death.

Explain what you mean by "new atheist"

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I AGree

Secularization results in a complete restructering frame of thought as well as frame of social order...

This is going to cause some Trauma whether or not violence is involved... be it person or be it society...

I have personally noticed that of which situations concerning the religious walls are let down that a person can become extremely indifferent to moral and, "let go" so to speak...

I think when this happens on a larger scale that people may collectively be wrapped up in a replay of the renascance or something like that... Effects from these types of actions can trigger extremes...

What exactly are you trying to question? Nondestructive secularization?

Its called LSD and being able to infiltrate the oppositions language so to charm them with knowledge and enlightenment...

Can we do that? Then ask yourself... Could that be done to you? how are you charmed?

 

 

your quest on is your ant sir


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bluliite wrote:Secularists

bluliite wrote:

Secularists (particularly the arguments of the so-called "new atheists&quotEye-wink argue to try to diminish, if not, eradicate religion.

Wrong.

Secularists argue to divide reservate religion for the private sphere while argueing in the public sphere solely on naturalistic, philosophic and rational grounds.

bluliite wrote:

Yet even assuming that the almost 7 billion+ people on this planet

Wrong.

about 6.75 billion by the beginning of 2009

bluliite wrote:

had access to a secular education, decent living standards, and life prospects how could this even be possible? And how are we defining religion here? I have yet to hear the new atheists, or anyone for that matter, overturn this argument in a convincing way.

A classical arguments ideally consists of three parts: A thesis, a reasoning for that thesis and some kind of proof for your reasoning.

What you've claimed to be an arugment already fails to put up a thesis.

bluliite wrote:

Also, since religious communities have been pushed into modernity (especially in the Islamic world) largely through military ventures and the imposition of free markets,

Wrong.

If those societies have been put by anything into modernity then it is the greed of their leaders (who wanted to make money with oil and live according to western standards of living. And the general nature of the human spirit (which is independent from culture) to strive for freedom.

bluliite wrote:

the additional demand of secularization on a Western model has been quite overbearing, especially if we're to agree that capitalist globalization diminishes traditional values and the sense of what is sacred between people and their community.

Wrong.

You should look up what the social-democratic parties especially in Europe stand for. The positions American Conservatives stand for might be irreconcilable with the Humand Dignity of the people especially in the lower classes of societies. But those positions are not the only ones in western societies and not indicative of the western culture.

bluliite wrote:

Doesn't it seem that the attacks of 9/11 and the resurgence of religion (especially of the extreme kind) after the fall of the Soviet Union is largely the result of the secular project of modernization (especially in places like Eastern Europe, the Balkans, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.) which has been experienced as a trauma

Wrong.

The fall of the Soviet Union was mostly due to the underestimation of seccesionist tendencies by Gorbatshev during his project of modernizing the communism in the USSR.

bluliite wrote:
, with an absence of any sort of credible moral virtue to lend legitimacy to a de-secularized political re-orientation? I think this process of secularization has been received as a violent and poor alternative to traditional worldviews that still hold communities together, however well or poorly they may achieve this goal.

There is no absence of moral virtues in secular societies just because religion is absent. In both Europe and America a lot of non-religious people hold the the moral virtues of Humanism "Human Dignity shall be inviolable", which is much better then the virtues self-flagellation and low views on Humanity that are preached by so many religions.

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Quote:Doesn't it seem that

Quote:
Doesn't it seem that the attacks of 9/11 and the resurgence of religion (especially of the extreme kind) after the fall of the Soviet Union is largely the result of the secular project of modernization (especially in places like Eastern Europe, the Balkans, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.) which has been experienced as a trauma

...What year was it when you last looked out the window? 1990?

This is something I don't understand about theistic rhetoric: spouting-out landmark events and persons in the distant past and attempting to draw immediate connections between them and contemporary events.

The Soviet Union has been dissolved for almost 2 decades now; the Berlin Wall fell in December of 1989, and Russia was re-consolidated into a republic in 1991.

 

Would you please explain how the events of September in 2001 were caused by an event that happened 9 years prior?

Quote:
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