Brian37 vs Ciarin

Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13623
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is onlineOnline
Brian37 vs Ciarin

As I stated in the other thread, I do not, and hope that you dont either, take this brawl personally, if you chose to partisipate. It is not aimed at you the person, but merely the claims you put forth.

So, if you would start off by giving me a discription of what your position is, we can start from there.

Keep in mind it will get bloody(metephorically speeking). But please understand that after the match is over, we can still have a beer together(meaning we can agree on other issues and be friends outside this dissagreement).

IN THIS CORNER, IT'S THE SULTAIN OF SILLYNISS, THE EINSTIEN OF IDOCY, THE MASTER OF MORONICNESS.......BRIAN37!

IN THE OTHER CORNER, ITS THE DEFENDER OF DEITIES, THE CYBORG OF THEISM ........."CIARIN"

LETS GET READY TO MUMBLE!

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13623
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is onlineOnline
Badbark wrote:Ciarin wrote:

Badbark wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

For the record I don't sacrifice animals to appease anything. It's way to honor the gods. You take your best crop(be it plant or animal) and you dedicate the eating of it to the god or gods. If the animal was mistreated or killed badly it wouldn't be worthy to be a sacrifice. That would be like going to McDonald's and dedicating the burger and fries to the gods(i.e. a really crappy offering).

 

Would you want someone to give you a shitty gift, or a nice gift? There's no reason to believe mistreating an animal would be a good offering, and if you were to somehow find out that a god wants a shitty offering, he probably isn't worth being honored in the first place.

 

Most people in this modern society are ignorant of just how awful factory farming is, either that or they don't care. I know better. So I prefer better(which is sometimes in the form of ritual sacrifice). I don't consider it stupid at all. It gives you an appreciation of the food you're eating and the reality that you must kill to eat. Buying a plastic wrapped steak doesn't do that. Today we can eat meat all day everyday and not think about it at all, because of factory farming. In the past, meat was a special commodity, not everyone could afford to eat it. It helps to not take things for granted sometimes.

If someone killed and ate an animal to honour me I would regard it as pretty much the shittiest gift I had ever received. I would be more honoured by a denotation to charity or another act of kindness. Maybe your gods might feel the same way?

Most people in modern society have progressed past religious animal sacrifice.

Yea, and they should get past the rediculous notion that fictional super heros and super villians in the sky exist.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Fish
Posts: 315
Joined: 2007-05-31
User is offlineOffline
Ciarin wrote:Fish

Ciarin wrote:

Fish wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

Fish wrote:

This statement is false.  There is a lot of evidence to suggest that the gods you believe in, and gods in general, do not exist. 

 

Prove Odin doesn't exist then.

 

Your statement has no meaning.  What is Odin?  It is a living creature?  An inanimate object?  Where would it be located?  Once you define Odin, proof can be offered to show its non-existence.

 

 

Odin is a god in the Norse Pantheon. google it.

 

And, don't expect to disprove him, because you can't. You can't prove a negative. At least be honest about it.

 

Odin as defined by his mythology has been disproven.  The ideas of Odin controlling weather and living in Valhala and so forth are not physically possible. 

In addition, it is certainly possible to prove a negative.  A classic example would be the proof of the non-existence of the ether, the supposed medium through which light travels. 

You are the one being dishonest in continuing to state that there is no proof agains the gods in which you believe.


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3711
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
Ciarin wrote:You can't prove

Ciarin wrote:
You can't prove a negative. At least be honest about it.

Meh, can you expand on this? Why can't we prove a negative?

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


fishpasteplay. (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
You cannot prove that

You cannot prove that something doesn't exist. You can't prove that unicorns or goatmonsters or the FSM doesn't exist. Because that would be proving a negative, you can however prove something does exist, by witnessing it or observing it etc.

 

 


Gauche
atheist
Gauche's picture
Posts: 1565
Joined: 2007-01-18
User is offlineOffline
butterbattle wrote:It seemed

butterbattle wrote:

It seemed fairly unnecessary. Unless you're a subsistence farmer or something, you'll most likely consume dozens of pounds of several kinds of meat from factory farms yearly.  

But, since you brought it up, where do you buy your meat? If you eat meat at restaurants, where do you eat?

It's possible that I live in a rural area and I just don't eat much meat. I used to live in a rural area and when I did I would buy lots of poultry or mouton or rabbits locally. I don't eat pork and I rarely eat beef. Since I don't live in a rural area anymore I don't do something special other than buying from the organic market. I'm not saying that gives me some sort of morally superior position but I don't think my situation is really as you've characterized it either.

Quote:

That makes a lot more sense. In fact, most of your previous comment didn't mean what I thought it meant. Hahaha.  

I was probably baked when I wrote it, so I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Quote: It's

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
It's way to honor the gods.

It is a way to ignore that rabbit's feet justify the mundane need to eat by equating it to Superman vs Kriptonite.

Uh...this makes no sense to me. Could you clarify? Too many metaphors in one sentence.

Quote:

It is a way for you to ignore the fact that you have to kill to survive. Name me one thing that does not die?

 

 

Uh, it's the exact opposite of ignoring the fact that you have to kill to survive. Maybe you missed it when I said(I bolded it for you):

 

"Most people in this modern society are ignorant of just how awful factory farming is, either that or they don't care. I know better. So I prefer better(which is sometimes in the form of ritual sacrifice). I don't consider it stupid at all. It gives you an appreciation of the food you're eating and the reality that you must kill to eat. Buying a plastic wrapped steak doesn't do that. Today we can eat meat all day everyday and not think about it at all, because of factory farming. In the past, meat was a special commodity, not everyone could afford to eat it. It helps to not take things for granted sometimes."

 

 

I can name you plenty of things that don't die. Rocks, water, air, plastic, metal, etc. But of course they don't live either, hehe.


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
latincanuck wrote:Brian37

latincanuck wrote:

Actually lots of the old roman gods required burnt offerings usually the fat and the undersirable parts do you do that as well?

I have yet to sacrifice meat to a roman god. In fact I have yet to give any kind of offering to a roman god.

 

Quote:

After all it was about appeasing the gods,not honoring the gods,

For Romans they had the Pax Deorum(peaceof the gods) which was their primary reason for giving offerings and sacrifices; to prevent Ira Deorum(wrath of the gods). It was more of a contractual relationship; you didn't even have to actually believe in them, just go through the motions and pay lip service. Which is why it's perfectly acceptable for Rome to be religously plural.

 

For Germanic peoples of Northern Europe and the British Isles, not so much about appeasing. It's akin to giving an honored friend a gift. Gift giving is a traditional thing to do. You bring a gift when you're visiting a friend, on feast days and other holy days, etc. So just like how they honor their friends and family with gifts, they also honor their gods and wights with gifts. There are many examples in the sagas that tell about the gift giving, particularly for the hosts of the events. The more gifts(and the more expensive too) the better his reputation and renown(and the better chance the men under his command will stick with him).

 

Quote:

as well when you "sacrifice" an animal do you do it yourself?

I have not the means, nor the skill, otherwise I would.

 

Quote:

Do you inspect the animal itself as well after you slit it's throat and then slice it's belly open to inspect the insides to make sure it's healthy?

Nope. The cook does that.

 

Quote:

If it's not healthy do you sacrife a pig in order to ask forgiveness to your gods (again another tradition in roman and various other religious animal sacrifices) for attempting to give them an unhealthy animal?

 

It's never happened in my experience, but I shall ask my friend in New Hampshire what would be done in such a case(he has a farm and so he's been the host of animal sacrifice for some years). I'm pretty sure they check the health of the animal beforehand.

 

Usually you pay scyld(debt) if you cause offense(be it god or man or wight).


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
Badbark wrote:If someone

Badbark wrote:

If someone killed and ate an animal to honour me I would regard it as pretty much the shittiest gift I had ever received.

 

Remind me never to invite you to a luau, hehe.

 

Quote:

I would be more honoured by a denotation to charity or another act of kindness. Maybe your gods might feel the same way?

Yes, not all gods get animals for a sacrifice. For example gods of the hearth, agriculture, love, beer/wine, etc tend to recieve offerings found within their domain. Grain for the goddess Ceres, for example. Ritual sex for Venus, another lovely example. In fact, most heathens that I know of only offer mead, honey, milk, grain, etc because they can't afford to raise an animal and kill it. Many heathens also offer poetry, songs, crafted items, etc in honor of the gods.

 

My experience with animal sacrifice is not common among heathens, or pagans in general as a matter of fact.

 

Quote:

Most people in modern society have progressed past religious animal sacrifice.

 

It's not a manner of progression. And btw, I wouldn't put much trust in your appeal to popularity, especially since "most people in modern society" have an easier time naming who won the major sports tournament than they would be at naming who won any of the nobel prizes this year(especially in america).
 


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3711
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
Ciarin wrote:It gives you an

Ciarin wrote:

It gives you an appreciation of the food you're eating and the reality that you must kill to eat.

Do you participate in ritual sacrifice to honor Gods or to respect the animals? Or both?

Quote:
Ritual sex for Venus, another lovely example.

Aha! I knew this religion was better than Christianity.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
butterbattle wrote:Ciarin

butterbattle wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

It gives you an appreciation of the food you're eating and the reality that you must kill to eat.

Do you participate in ritual sacrifice to honor Gods or to respect the animals? Or both?

 

both.

 

Quote:

Quote:
Ritual sex for Venus, another lovely example.

Aha! I knew this religion was better than Christianity.

 

 

rofl!


Badbark
Posts: 94
Joined: 2008-01-14
User is offlineOffline
Ciarin wrote: Badbark

Ciarin wrote:

Badbark wrote:

I would be more honoured by a denotation to charity or another act of kindness. Maybe your gods might feel the same way?

Yes, not all gods get animals for a sacrifice. For example gods of the hearth, agriculture, love, beer/wine, etc tend to recieve offerings found within their domain. Grain for the goddess Ceres, for example. Ritual sex for Venus, another lovely example. In fact, most heathens that I know of only offer mead, honey, milk, grain, etc because they can't afford to raise an animal and kill it. Many heathens also offer poetry, songs, crafted items, etc in honor of the gods.

 

My experience with animal sacrifice is not common among heathens, or pagans in general as a matter of fact.

 

Quote:

Most people in modern society have progressed past religious animal sacrifice.

 

It's not a manner of progression. And btw, I wouldn't put much trust in your appeal to popularity, especially since "most people in modern society" have an easier time naming who won the major sports tournament than they would be at naming who won any of the nobel prizes this year(especially in america).
 

So you don’t really have to slaughter the animal at all for your religion. Your gods would be just as happy with other gifts. Sorry but it appears to me the only reason you do it is to satisfy some sort of blood lust. I think you get off on it.

I only used the term ‘most people in modern society’ because they are your exact words from the previous post. I’m not appealing to popularity - I’m trying to appeal to your human decency. Yes, the majority of civilized people still eat meat; however most would feel revolted to see the animal killed in front off them. What you are doing is barbaric and uncivilized.

Uncivilized –

Adj

1. (of a tribe or people) not yet civilized

2. lacking culture or sophistication

Civilized –

adj.

1. Having a highly developed society and culture.

2. Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable

3. Marked by refinement in taste and manners; cultured; polished.

(Free Dictionary)

 


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3711
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
This probably doesn't make

This probably doesn't make any sense, but Ciarin's religion feels like a...............like a hobby.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


Jormungander
atheistScience Freak
Jormungander's picture
Posts: 938
Joined: 2008-07-15
User is offlineOffline
I wrote a lengthy reply to

I wrote a lengthy reply to Badbark's nonsense, but my internet connection cut out as I tried to post and I am unable to retrieve it. Here is the shortened version: get off of the high horse Badbark. It is in no way uncivilized or amoral to kill animals and then eat them, even if some silly religious ritual is tacked onto the meal. You are grossly overstating how bad it is to kill an animal and then eat it. You are acting as though she said she distributes heroin to children. You had better be a vegetarian to act this way when someone says they eat animals that other people slaughter at religious gatherings.

We can have meaningful discussion with her about how wrong her beliefs are, but simply denouncing her choice of humane meat consumption as barbaric will get us nowhere.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


Jormungander
atheistScience Freak
Jormungander's picture
Posts: 938
Joined: 2008-07-15
User is offlineOffline
I wrote a lengthy reply to

Edit: doublepost, I suck at using the internet.


 


The Doomed Soul
atheist
The Doomed Soul's picture
Posts: 2148
Joined: 2007-08-31
User is offlineOffline
I dont see what the problem

I dont see what the problem with ritual sacrifice of an animal is o_O

 

They prey to their gods, kill the animal (or the other way around... its really only a 6 second difference >.< haha ), and eat it

Christians, kill the animal, say nothing, then pray before they eat the meal *shrug*

Only difference is in the time interval... how come 1 version is socially acceptable, yet the other is detestable?

What Would Kharn Do?


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
Badbark wrote:So you

Badbark wrote:

So you don’t really have to slaughter the animal at all for your religion.

 

I don't have to do anything at all in my religion. I happen to like animal sacrifice, it's a matter of preference.

Quote:

Your gods would be just as happy with other gifts.

I'm pretty sure I will be offering many other gifts(especially since I don't have the means to sacrifice animals myself). I do not see your point here.

Quote:

Sorry but it appears to me the only reason you do it is to satisfy some sort of blood lust. I think you get off on it.

I do not have a blood lust(unless you count my love of eating meat...especially black angus with jack daniels sauce...so good).

 

I get off on porn and sexy sexy men. Eating fresh roast pork is mighty tasty but it has yet to cause me an orgasm.

 

Quote:

I only used the term ‘most people in modern society’ because they are your exact words from the previous post. I’m not appealing to popularity - I’m trying to appeal to your human decency. Yes, the majority of civilized people still eat meat; however most would feel revolted to see the animal killed in front off them. What you are doing is barbaric and uncivilized.

 

Holy crap what a piece of bullshit you got right there. You're trying to appeal to my human decency? How exactly are you doing that? Human decency motivates me to NOT support factory farming. It motivates me to get my meat from humane natural sources. It certainly doesn't cause me to dislike killing an animal for food. Eating animals is not a bad thing. At all. I'm sure vegetarians/vegans will disagree but I don't particularly care.

Your claim that most people would feel revolted to see the animal killed right in front of them, while I don't necessarily disagree with, is irrelevent. The reason they might feel revolted isn't because killing an animal is revolting, but because they are raised in a society that hides it from them. They're not used to seeing it. The corporations like ConAgra present the meat in nice neat little plastic wrapped packages and don't reveal that those animals have lived a tortured existence since birth and died a death that if you had done the same to a dog or cat would be considered illegal by our humanitarian laws. They don't reveal that one hamburger patty will contain the beef from thousands of cows. They don't reveal that this method of food production is the reason we have E.coli outbreaks.

I don't give a damn if someone is revolted by seeing an animal being killed in front of them, because while in the same day they'll go to Burger King and order a double whopper with cheese without a single thought of where their food came from. People SHOULD see their food being killed. Maybe they'll have a better appreciation for their food, or maybe they'll eat less meat which will cause the production to go down(which in turn causes less pollution, less clearing of forests for pasture land in south america, less food disease outbreaks, etc).

 

I dislike PETA, I think they're hypocritical. But I will wholeheartedly agree with their stance on factory farming, and I suggest all you sheltered self-absorbed ignorant "modern people" go see their videos on it. You don't like animal sacrifice because you get a nasty picture in your mind(probably influenced by a movie or something you read), therefore you think it's uncivilized. Unfortunately, this cultured sophisticated civilization uses the most inhumane, disgusting, and dangerous method to raise and kill animals for our voracious appetite for meat.

 

So again, I say if you're not a vegetarian, you're a hypocrite. If you eat meat and claim some self-righteous tone regarding your dislike for animal sacrifice as if it was barbaric, you need to school yourself immensely on the reality of our society.

 

 

/rant

 


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
butterbattle wrote:This

butterbattle wrote:

This probably doesn't make any sense, but Ciarin's religion feels like a...............like a hobby.

 

Or maybe my hobby feels like a religion?


latincanuck
atheist
latincanuck's picture
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2007-06-01
User is offlineOffline
I would just like to know

Ciarin wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

This probably doesn't make any sense, but Ciarin's religion feels like a...............like a hobby.

 

Or maybe my hobby feels like a religion?

When you sacrifce your animals do your follow the roman religious views faithfully? Or do you change them to fit your own view? (as is common with most religious folks these days to ignore the bad parts of the old religions) because if I recall correctly (which i never saw you respond to it) when you sacrifice the animal do you actually do the sacrificing yourself or do you just offer the food you have infront of you to the gods? Do you burn off your waste (fat and other undersirable parts) to the gods as per roman animal sacrifice tradition? If the food was not good or the animal was unhealthy do you sacrifice a pig and burn the whole pig to please the gods for the unworthy sacrifice? again as per roman animals sacrifice ritural requirement? Or do you simply ignore that entire part of the animal sacrifice and do as you want?


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13623
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is onlineOnline
Quote:Uh, it's the exact

Quote:
Uh, it's the exact opposite of ignoring the fact that you have to kill to survive.

Humans kill plants too to survive.

WHAT does this have to do with magical claims of super heros?

The difference is when I eat beef, I go to the supermarket and buy it. I don't pretend that killing is magical, nor do I treat it as a ritual based on beings I have no proof for. Nor do I treat it as entertainment.

You lack a basic understanding of evolution nor do you understand why morality would explain that your profession of tradition is debunked.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3711
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
I really don't understand

I really don't understand how animal sacrifice is "immoral." In fact, I don't see how it's any worse than simply praying before a meal.

Badbark wrote:
I only used the term ‘most people in modern society’ because they are your exact words from the previous post. I’m not appealing to popularity - I’m trying to appeal to your human decency.

Okay, sure, why? Why is it indecent?

Quote:
Yes, the majority of civilized people still eat meat; however most would feel revolted to see the animal killed in front off them.

So what? There's nothing here except argumentum ad populum, which you just claimed in the previous sentence that you weren't using.

Quote:
What you are doing is barbaric and uncivilized.

Again, why? Why why why why why?

 

 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3711
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:It is a way

Edit: Grammar.

Brian37 wrote:
It is a way for you to ignore the fact that you have to kill to survive. Name me one thing that does not die?

Ciarin wrote:
Uh, it's the exact opposite of ignoring the fact that you have to kill to survive. Maybe you missed it when I said(I bolded it for you):

"Most people in this modern society are ignorant of just how awful factory farming is, either that or they don't care. I know better. So I prefer better(which is sometimes in the form of ritual sacrifice). I don't consider it stupid at all. It gives you an appreciation of the food you're eating and the reality that you must kill to eat. Buying a plastic wrapped steak doesn't do that. Today we can eat meat all day everyday and not think about it at all, because of factory farming. In the past, meat was a special commodity, not everyone could afford to eat it. It helps to not take things for granted sometimes."

Brian37 wrote:
Humans kill plants too to survive.

WHAT does this have to do with magical claims of super heros?

The difference is when I eat beef, I go to the supermarket and buy it. I don't pretend that killing is magical, nor do I treat it as a ritual based on beings I have no proof for. Nor do I treat it as entertainment.

You lack a basic understanding of evolution nor do you understand why morality would explain that your profession of tradition is debunked.

I think you forgot your, uuuuhhh, previous post.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3711
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
Ciarin wrote:I don't have to

Ciarin wrote:

I don't have to do anything at all in my religion.

So why do you do anything for your religion?

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
latincanuck wrote:When you

latincanuck wrote:

When you sacrifce your animals do your follow the roman religious views faithfully?

 

Well, I most likely won't be doing this unless I can afford to run a farm. But hypothetically, if I were to sacrifice an animal in the roman way I would do it is as historicaly accurate as I could.

Quote:

Or do you change them to fit your own view? (as is common with most religious folks these days to ignore the bad parts of the old religions)

Nope. By the way, I see nothing wrong with religous people ignoring the bad parts of their religion.

Quote:

because if I recall correctly (which i never saw you respond to it) when you sacrifice the animal do you actually do the sacrificing yourself or do you just offer the food you have infront of you to the gods?

I did respond to this, but I guess you missed it and you're too lazy to go find it. I will reiterate, I've never sacrificed an animal because I don't own any animals to sacrifice. I also don't have the skill to kill it and prepare it for consumption. The fellow hosting the event and his wife did that(they're farmers). Also it was a germanic heathen event, not roman. I've never been to a roman animal sacrifice and I don't know of any roman pagans that have done it. Romans tended to sacrifice larger animals such as bulls, so it'd be quite difficult and expensive to do that. Most roman pagans I know of give offerings of incense, salt, food, wine, etc.

Quote:

Do you burn off your waste (fat and other undersirable parts) to the gods as per roman animal sacrifice tradition?

If I were to ever have a roman animal sacrifice I probably would. Incidently the germanic style also burns the leftover parts.

 

Quote:

If the food was not good or the animal was unhealthy do you sacrifice a pig and burn the whole pig to please the gods for the unworthy sacrifice?

I will repeat again. I think the health of the animal is checked beforehand, but if the animal that was sacrificed turned out to be a sick animal I'm sure amends would be made.

Quote:

again as per roman animals sacrifice ritural requirement?

I'll let you know after I go to my first botched roman animal sacrifice.

 

Quote:

Or do you simply ignore that entire part of the animal sacrifice and do as you want?

 

Well there's a couple of things first. I've never been to a roman animal sacrifice, and I don't know of any so I'm not familiar on how it would be done today. I would hope it would be done as historically accurate as possible. If the priest messes up the ritual, I would hope he would fix it properly. The benefit of living in our time is that we wouldn't need to wait till the animal is killed to see if it was healthy. We can make use of a vet who can perform a check-up of the animal, complete with x-rays and blood tests.


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Quote:Uh, it's

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
Uh, it's the exact opposite of ignoring the fact that you have to kill to survive.

Humans kill plants too to survive.

 

Every animal(and a few plants) kills something else to survive. What is your point here?

 

Quote:

WHAT does this have to do with magical claims of super heros?

 

As far as I can tell no one in this thread has brought up super heroes. We were discussing animal sacrifice, did you forget?

 

Quote:

The difference is when I eat beef, I go to the supermarket and buy it. I don't pretend that killing is magical, nor do I treat it as a ritual based on beings I have no proof for. Nor do I treat it as entertainment.

 

I don't think I've given any indication that killing is magical. When I buy meat I also don't treat it as a ritual, nor entertaiment.

 

Quote:

You lack a basic understanding of evolution

LOL, what? I'm pretty sure I understand evolution. Where did this come from?

 

Quote:

nor do you understand why morality would explain that your profession of tradition is debunked.

 

Morality is subjective. My tradition isn't debunked it's merely criticized.

 

Geez Brian your posts are full of fail-sauce. Try again.


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
butterbattle wrote:Ciarin

butterbattle wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

I don't have to do anything at all in my religion.

So why do you do anything for your religion?

 

 

 

Well there's the socialization aspect, the awesome food, the pleasure you get from gift giving and comradery, and I think it's nice to be active in your religion. Participation is more fun and interesting than just sitting on the couch. You're not required to do anything at all, it's just that people like to do it. In many cases you get a nice sense of pride by honoring your ancestors and gods, etc. Telling the stories of your family, the history of your heritage, it makes you feel good. I know of some people who don't do much at all though, they just believe and that's it.

 


latincanuck
atheist
latincanuck's picture
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2007-06-01
User is offlineOffline
figured as much

You don't really believe in the gods you just want to be different yet still believe in the some form supreme deity(s) some form of afterlife without the messy part of the actually requirements of actually following the rules and riturals those religions, I mean after all the roman gods and other gods are usually pretty specific about offerings to them and the requirement if the food was unhealthy (food poisoning for example does occur in your supermarket food occassionally). Now of course you used the term animal sacrifice, which isn't true, oh and romans did not just sacrifice bulls and cows, there were goats, pigs, sheep and basically any animal they could/would eat.

Now the bad parts of the religious views, well remember when the gods demanded it was not considered to be morally or socially unacceptable, of course we have moved on beyond those demands of gods and view those certain demands as bad. Of course that doesn't change the fact that it's required for those gods as those demands are part of the religious views. Then again as we have moved on beyond those demands morally and socially, we change the relgion to fit our current view, which makes it seem to me like you just want to believe to be different than others (christians, muslims, jews, buddhists....basically the majority of religious views) to be different, that could be one possible explaination as to why ou believe in these gods. Because mainstream society does not. Makes you feel unique like a snowflake, when in reality your the same rotting organism as the rest of us.


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
latincanuck wrote:You don't

latincanuck wrote:

You don't really believe in the gods you just want to be different

 

hehe, lol yea you keep telling yourself that. Btw, here's a little infor for ya, everyone's different. It wouldn't matter what religion I am, I'd still be different. I'm pretty sure I don't believe in my religion just because it's less common. It actually sucks that it's less common because there's hardly anyone to have fellowship with.

 

You don't actually lack a belief in the gods, you just want to be different.

 

LOLCWUTIDIDTHAR?!

 

Quote:

yet still believe in the some form supreme deity(s) some form of afterlife without the messy part of the actually requirements of actually following the rules and riturals those religions

ORLY? Please cite where I don't "actually requirements of actually following the rules and riturals those religions". I believe I stated several times that I would try to follow the rituals as historically accurate as possible.

 

BTW, hooked on phonics didn't work for you, canuck.

 

Quote:

, I mean after all the roman gods and other gods are usually pretty specific about offerings to them and the requirement if the food was unhealthy (food poisoning for example does occur in your supermarket food occassionally).

And? What's your point? I don't recall ever saying I wouldn't follow the requirement if the food was unhealthy(assuming I'm stupid enough to offer up unhealthy food).

 

Quote:

Now of course you used the term animal sacrifice, which isn't true

Uh....what isn't true about it? You're making no sense here, man.

 

Quote:

, oh and romans did not just sacrifice bulls and cows, there were goats, pigs, sheep and basically any animal they could/would eat.

 

No one said they only sacrificed bulls and cows.

 

Quote:

Now the bad parts of the religious views, well remember when the gods demanded it was not considered to be morally or socially unacceptable, of course we have moved on beyond those demands of gods and view those certain demands as bad.

Have we? I certainly haven't. Animal sacrifice is no more "bad" than eating meat any other time.

 

Quote:

Of course that doesn't change the fact that it's required for those gods as those demands are part of the religious views.

It's not actually required though. It's a customary thing to do(for romans it helped the pax deorum) and if you have the means and the know how then you can do it. If you don't, it's not as if the gods will smite you for not killing an animal for them.

Quote:

Then again as we have moved on beyond those demands morally and socially, we change the relgion to fit our current view, which makes it seem to me like you just want to believe to be different than others (christians, muslims, jews, buddhists....basically the majority of religious views) to be different, that could be one possible explaination as to why ou believe in these gods. Because mainstream society does not. Makes you feel unique like a snowflake, when in reality your the same rotting organism as the rest of us.

 

Uh, no. That actually has nothing to do with my beliefs. Everyone's different, man. Get used to it.


latincanuck
atheist
latincanuck's picture
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2007-06-01
User is offlineOffline
Well here are a few things,

Well here are a few things, one I have always been an atheist, I was more or less brought up one, as my father is an atheist and my mom believe in a higher power but more of a deist view than anything and even then it has been more in her later years. I haven't changed my outlook to fit into society or to be different, my father instilled in me a desire to understand things and the world and not to fill them in with unnecessary explanations like god or gods unless there is sufficient evidence for them. You however have changed your views and even deities to either fit in or to try to be different.

As for the grammar comment, no problem professor I shall try to improve, since I think in Spanish and/or Italian and type in English I tend to fuck it up every once in a while hence the LATIN part of LATINcanuck, which stand for latino oh great professor ciarin.

No one says your stupid enough to offer up bad food, since when you actually SACRIFICE an animal you may not know until you open up the animal, however it's irrational to sacrifice an entire pig and have fire consume it to please an imaginary deity. Of course you have to be sacrificing an animal, and if your not killing it yourself are you really sacrificing or are you praying to a specific god? maybe I am not understanding by what you mean by sacrifice. Because it's starting to sound more like you pray and give thanks, instead of actually killing and doing the whole ritual yourself. If it's the praying it's no more different than Christan's giving thanks. If it's actual sacrifice, then if your not killing the animal yourself then you are participating but not actually sacrificing, again big difference here.

Now I never said sacrificing animals for consumption is bad, please indicate where I said that. I said you tend to ignore the parts that you feel are bad of your religion which is typical of believers because they don't actually believe in it, they want to feel like they belong to a group and they feel good about it, but come on, either you truly believe it and follow all of it or you don't believe it and just are in it to be part of something. Now sacrificing a pig to a god and having the entire pig burnt in order to please a god(s) because that is what is demanded to please them, is irrational and well a waste of food.

Even better you sacrifice animals according to certain gods but not to others? Follow some traditions but not others? Believe in to different set of gods altogether (Norse and roman) and yet truly never belong to one doesn't indicate I want to be part of something but not part of mainstream then I don't know what is.

Oh and no everyone is not different everyone is looking for the same thing, we are all humans and we are not unique snowflakes, we are all the same we want to belong. Get use to it.

 


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3711
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
Ciarin wrote:butterbattle

Ciarin wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

I don't have to do anything at all in my religion.

So why do you do anything for your religion?

Well there's the socialization aspect, the awesome food, the pleasure you get from gift giving and comradery, and I think it's nice to be active in your religion. Participation is more fun and interesting than just sitting on the couch. You're not required to do anything at all, it's just that people like to do it. In many cases you get a nice sense of pride by honoring your ancestors and gods, etc. Telling the stories of your family, the history of your heritage, it makes you feel good. I know of some people who don't do much at all though, they just believe and that's it.

Cool, it is like a hobby!   

So, other than believing that these Gods exist, does your religion have any requirements at all?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


Badbark
Posts: 94
Joined: 2008-01-14
User is offlineOffline
butterbattle wrote:I really

butterbattle wrote:

I really don't understand how animal sacrifice is "immoral." In fact, I don't see how it's any worse than simply praying before a meal.

Badbark wrote:
I only used the term ‘most people in modern society’ because they are your exact words from the previous post. I’m not appealing to popularity - I’m trying to appeal to your human decency.

Okay, sure, why? Why is it indecent?

Quote:
Yes, the majority of civilized people still eat meat; however most would feel revolted to see the animal killed in front off them.

So what? There's nothing here except argumentum ad populum, which you just claimed in the previous sentence that you weren't using.

Quote:
What you are doing is barbaric and uncivilized.

Again, why? Why why why why why? 

Sorry, I'm having difficultly explaining my position.

Do you believe in physically punishing children? I don’t, but wouldn’t claim that people who make this choice are immoral. However, I think it is immoral to physically punish children because of a religious doctrine or part of a ceremony.

It’s the same with animal sacrifice. I’m a vegetarian so I don’t believe in eating meat. I don’t think people who choose to eat meat are immoral. However, I think it is immoral to kill animals for the purpose of religious doctrine or part of a ceremony.

I could make a similar argument about capital punishment.

So basically I’m opposed to acts that are ‘ethically questionable’ in the name of religion.

 

 


Badbark
Posts: 94
Joined: 2008-01-14
User is offlineOffline
Ciarin wrote:Badbark

Ciarin wrote:

Badbark wrote:

So you don’t really have to slaughter the animal at all for your religion.

 

I don't have to do anything at all in my religion. I happen to like animal sacrifice, it's a matter of preference.

Quote:

Your gods would be just as happy with other gifts.

I'm pretty sure I will be offering many other gifts(especially since I don't have the means to sacrifice animals myself). I do not see your point here.

Quote:

Sorry but it appears to me the only reason you do it is to satisfy some sort of blood lust. I think you get off on it.

I do not have a blood lust(unless you count my love of eating meat...especially black angus with jack daniels sauce...so good).

 

I get off on porn and sexy sexy men. Eating fresh roast pork is mighty tasty but it has yet to cause me an orgasm.

 

Quote:

I only used the term ‘most people in modern society’ because they are your exact words from the previous post. I’m not appealing to popularity - I’m trying to appeal to your human decency. Yes, the majority of civilized people still eat meat; however most would feel revolted to see the animal killed in front off them. What you are doing is barbaric and uncivilized.

 

Holy crap what a piece of bullshit you got right there. You're trying to appeal to my human decency? How exactly are you doing that? Human decency motivates me to NOT support factory farming. It motivates me to get my meat from humane natural sources. It certainly doesn't cause me to dislike killing an animal for food. Eating animals is not a bad thing. At all. I'm sure vegetarians/vegans will disagree but I don't particularly care.

Your claim that most people would feel revolted to see the animal killed right in front of them, while I don't necessarily disagree with, is irrelevent. The reason they might feel revolted isn't because killing an animal is revolting, but because they are raised in a society that hides it from them. They're not used to seeing it. The corporations like ConAgra present the meat in nice neat little plastic wrapped packages and don't reveal that those animals have lived a tortured existence since birth and died a death that if you had done the same to a dog or cat would be considered illegal by our humanitarian laws. They don't reveal that one hamburger patty will contain the beef from thousands of cows. They don't reveal that this method of food production is the reason we have E.coli outbreaks.

I don't give a damn if someone is revolted by seeing an animal being killed in front of them, because while in the same day they'll go to Burger King and order a double whopper with cheese without a single thought of where their food came from. People SHOULD see their food being killed. Maybe they'll have a better appreciation for their food, or maybe they'll eat less meat which will cause the production to go down(which in turn causes less pollution, less clearing of forests for pasture land in south america, less food disease outbreaks, etc).

 

I dislike PETA, I think they're hypocritical. But I will wholeheartedly agree with their stance on factory farming, and I suggest all you sheltered self-absorbed ignorant "modern people" go see their videos on it. You don't like animal sacrifice because you get a nasty picture in your mind(probably influenced by a movie or something you read), therefore you think it's uncivilized. Unfortunately, this cultured sophisticated civilization uses the most inhumane, disgusting, and dangerous method to raise and kill animals for our voracious appetite for meat.

 

So again, I say if you're not a vegetarian, you're a hypocrite. If you eat meat and claim some self-righteous tone regarding your dislike for animal sacrifice as if it was barbaric, you need to school yourself immensely on the reality of our society.

 

 

/rant

 

Sorry Ciaran, I realise my initial post was a bit harsh. I am a vegetarian and commend that fact you do thinking ethically about the food you eat. I agree that factory farming is considerably more barbaric than your animal sacrifice ceremonies.

I just had this picture in my head of a lot of people getting excited about watching an animal getting killed – and doing so because of imaginary gods. The thought of it disgusts me, but then again that’s me. I’ll not derail this thread with anymore of my veggie induced thoughts.

I like you Ciaran, even if I think you’re battier than a fruit cake.


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
latincanuck wrote:No one

latincanuck wrote:

No one says your stupid enough to offer up bad food, since when you actually SACRIFICE an animal you may not know until you open up the animal,

 

Never heard of a vet?


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
butterbattle wrote:Ciarin

butterbattle wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

I don't have to do anything at all in my religion.

So why do you do anything for your religion?

Well there's the socialization aspect, the awesome food, the pleasure you get from gift giving and comradery, and I think it's nice to be active in your religion. Participation is more fun and interesting than just sitting on the couch. You're not required to do anything at all, it's just that people like to do it. In many cases you get a nice sense of pride by honoring your ancestors and gods, etc. Telling the stories of your family, the history of your heritage, it makes you feel good. I know of some people who don't do much at all though, they just believe and that's it.

Cool, it is like a hobby!   

So, other than believing that these Gods exist, does your religion have any requirements at all?

 

Yea, if you're a dick sometimes you get outlawed(aka shunned). Reputation is a serious business. It also requires that you study history and lore. Some have referred to it as a religion with homework.


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
latincanuck wrote:If it's

latincanuck wrote:

If it's actual sacrifice, then if your not killing the animal yourself then you are participating but not actually sacrificing, again big difference here.

 

I never said I actually sacrificed animals myself. I said I believe in animal sacrifice.

 

Quote:

Now I never said sacrificing animals for consumption is bad, please indicate where I said that. I said you tend to ignore the parts that you feel are bad of your religion which is typical of believers because they don't actually believe in it, they want to feel like they belong to a group and they feel good about it, but come on, either you truly believe it and follow all of it or you don't believe it and just are in it to be part of something. Now sacrificing a pig to a god and having the entire pig burnt in order to please a god(s) because that is what is demanded to please them, is irrational and well a waste of food.

 

Yes it would be a waste. The good thing is I'll probably never have to do it. Here are the reasons: I don't own a farm with animals; I don't know how to kill animals humanely; I'm not a priest of a roman cultus nor do I plan on being one.

 

Quote:

Even better you sacrifice animals according to certain gods but not to others? Follow some traditions but not others? Believe in to different set of gods altogether (Norse and roman) and yet truly never belong to one doesn't indicate I want to be part of something but not part of mainstream then I don't know what is.

My participation with animal sacrifice is based on opportunity. I don't know of anyone sacrificing animals to the roman gods, otherwise I would participate. I know of one guy that does it with the germanic gods, and was invited to his events when I lived in New England, so I went. It's not a matter of deciding who I will and who I won't sacrifice animals to, be it roman or germanic. It's like when I lived in hawaii. When I was in hawaii I went to a luau. When I moved out of hawaii I haven't been to a luau because no one that I knew of was doing any. Do you get what I'm saying here?

Quote:

Oh and no everyone is not different everyone is looking for the same thing, we are all humans and we are not unique snowflakes, we are all the same we want to belong. Get use to it.

 

Wrong, everyone is different. We're not clones, man. If we were all the same we'd have no separate thoughts, desires, styles, actions. We'd be drones. There would be no war, no competition, no creativity. If we were all be the same, the world would be boring.

 

 I like that we're all different and unique. We have similarities on some levels, especially when raised in the same culture, but this does not negate our differences. The only thing we truly have in common is that we are the same species. Get used to it.


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 3640
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
Ciarin wrote:   I like

Ciarin wrote:

 

 

 I like that we're all different and unique. We have similarities on some levels, especially when raised in the same culture, but this does not negate our differences. The only thing we truly have in common is that we are the same species. Get used to it.

 

Ugh, I'll never get used to it,  I've tried and tried and I keep returning to the same conclusion... most people just plain suck !

 

 But on a more serious note, my initial "impression" is that while there do exist modern day followers of the ancient European religions they are a tiny microcism, a community of believers whose numbers are, at present, so few that their presence is barely noticed, if at all.

  And likewise are there any sources that indicate that your community is gaining ground, statistically speaking, among spiritually minded people ? 

  Also, is there a typical demographic among your fellow believers ?  I assume persons of European heritage would predominate ?  Is it mostly a younger crowd or do you have any elderly followers ?  You're ex-military, are there a lot of GI's who participate ?  Do you notice any societal patterns at all among your fellow heathens ?    (....for some reason I have a mental picture of modern-day heathens as also being members of the SCA crowd  )

 

 

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


latincanuck
atheist
latincanuck's picture
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2007-06-01
User is offlineOffline
Ciarin wrote:latincanuck

Ciarin wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

No one says your stupid enough to offer up bad food, since when you actually SACRIFICE an animal you may not know until you open up the animal,

 

Never heard of a vet?

yup and yet still some times mad cow disease gets out, and I highly doubt everyone gets the vet to check out the animal before a sacrifice, plus could be diseased as in cancer or some other disease.


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3711
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
Badbark wrote:Sorry, I'm

Badbark wrote:

Sorry, I'm having difficultly explaining my position.

Do you believe in physically punishing children? I don’t, but wouldn’t claim that people who make this choice are immoral. However, I think it is immoral to physically punish children because of a religious doctrine or part of a ceremony.

It’s the same with animal sacrifice. I’m a vegetarian so I don’t believe in eating meat. I don’t think people who choose to eat meat are immoral. However, I think it is immoral to kill animals for the purpose of religious doctrine or part of a ceremony.

I could make a similar argument about capital punishment.

So basically I’m opposed to acts that are ‘ethically questionable’ in the name of religion.

I understand your analogy of punishing children, but maybe it would need to take all the parameters into account. We could say that the children were going to be tortured for the rest of their lives if you didn't punish them this one time. Or, perhaps, there was already a good reason for punishing them, and you simply added a religious reason as an............afterthought?

Maybe I'm just being speciecist.

Edit: How do you spell speciecist? Maybe, it's speciesist?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


fishpasteplay (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
latincanuck wrote:Ciarin

latincanuck wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

No one says your stupid enough to offer up bad food, since when you actually SACRIFICE an animal you may not know until you open up the animal,

 

Never heard of a vet?

yup and yet still some times mad cow disease gets out, and I highly doubt everyone gets the vet to check out the animal before a sacrifice, plus could be diseased as in cancer or some other disease.

 

You do realize you are just arguing against hunting and eating a captured animal versus buying one at the grocery store? None of your argument addresses the sacrificial aspect.


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
latincanuck wrote:Ciarin

latincanuck wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

No one says your stupid enough to offer up bad food, since when you actually SACRIFICE an animal you may not know until you open up the animal,

 

Never heard of a vet?

yup and yet still some times mad cow disease gets out,

Can you cite how many times a cow that was sacrificed had this disease? I'm pretty sure mad cow is a result of factory farming. A good reason to not feed your cattle the remains of dead cattle.

 

Quote:

and I highly doubt everyone gets the vet to check out the animal before a sacrifice, plus could be diseased as in cancer or some other disease.

 

What do you base this doubt on? Do you have a great deal of experience with people who sacrifice animals which would lead you to conclude that you highly doubt everyone gets the vet to check out the animal?

 

Incidently the fellow that did the animal sacrifices has a vet for a wife.


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
ProzacDeathWish wrote:Ugh,

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Ugh, I'll never get used to it,  I've tried and tried and I keep returning to the same conclusion... most people just plain suck !

 

LOL, if you're lucky.

 

Quote:

 But on a more serious note, my initial "impression" is that while there do exist modern day followers of the ancient European religions they are a tiny microcism, a community of believers whose numbers are, at present, so few that their presence is barely noticed, if at all.

Yes, a minority of a minority, so to speak.

 

Quote:

  And likewise are there any sources that indicate that your community is gaining ground, statistically speaking, among spiritually minded people ?

 

Nothing definitive since many people choose not to make public their beliefs for fear of retribution. I do know that the heathen orgs are growing in membership. Plus there's the next gen heathens being raised at the moment(but this isn't a guarantee they'll be heathen when they are adults).

Quote:

  Also, is there a typical demographic among your fellow believers ?

Yes, I would say so. Big burly man, with a beard who loves beer and listens to scandinavian metal, and they tend to have a huge hammer pendant.

 

Quote:

I assume persons of European heritage would predominate ?

For the most part, since it has an ancestral component.

 

Quote:

Is it mostly a younger crowd or do you have any elderly followers ?

A healthy mix of both.

 

Quote:

  You're ex-military, are there a lot of GI's who participate ?

A good proportion are vets or active military, probably due to the warrior aspect of the religion.

 

Quote:

Do you notice any societal patterns at all among your fellow heathens ?    (....for some reason I have a mental picture of modern-day heathens as also being members of the SCA crowd  )

 

I know of a few who are SCA, many pagans in general are SCA as well. I was thinking of joining but I'm a bit lazy. Many heathens, myself included, like to dress in the old garb at some events(kinda like how some people like to dress up in liederhosen at oktoberfest). Some dress up at rituals only.

I'm not sure what you mean by societal patterns though.


latincanuck
atheist
latincanuck's picture
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2007-06-01
User is offlineOffline
Family

On my mothers side, we have part ownership in a ranch, goats, sheeps, cows, and chickens, been in the family for almost 130 years. They have yearly BBQ's with the town, occassionally you get a diseased animal that they cut open to BBQ, goats and sheep mainly, the cows are usually well taken care off, however they too over the years have had a bad cow per se (thankfully no mad cow disease, grains, grass and natural food, not allowed to feed them any animals due to the laws) even chickens you get a diseased one every once in a while, well every blue moon. I attend those festivals when I can, haven't in a while though as they are in Argentina and I am in Canada


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10632
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is onlineOnline
Quote:Eating animals is not

Quote:
Eating animals is not a bad thing. At all. I'm sure vegetarians/vegans will disagree but I don't particularly care.

I like you. Smiling

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


whatever
whatever's picture
Posts: 11
Joined: 2009-02-20
User is offlineOffline
Sacrifice animals to appease

Sacrifice animals to appease the gods, then sacrifice more animals to appease the animals you sacrificed.  Then more, and more animals until finally only you are left.  Then everyone one will be happy.  Moo Ha ha ha ha ha ha...................

<evil laugh>


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 3640
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
Ciarin wrote: I'm not sure

Ciarin wrote:

 

I'm not sure what you mean by societal patterns though.

 ( ...actually I'm not sure what I meant by it either , clumsy choice of words on my part. )

   A few final questions and then I'll stop pestering you:

 1.)  Have the heathen religions that you participate in grown large enough to have developed seperate "schisms"  yet ? 

  In other words, it seems that most world religions follow a pattern be they abrahamic ( Judiasm, Christianity, Islam ) or even the less dogmatic Eastern spirtual belief systems ( Hinduism, Buddhism, etc ).  Historically speaking they all seem to eventually break apart into factions and actually come into conflict with their former brethren.  In short, do heathens have doctrinal differences ?

  2.)  Do heathens have apologists ?  Are there persons who intellectually immerse themselves within heathen theology so that they can defend their beliefs to others ?  I know that you said that many of you prefer to remain in stealth mode to avoid being hassled but are there any individuals who put up web-sites, publish literature, etc for the purpose of defending your belief system ?

 

     I'm done. Thanks.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
ProzacDeathWish wrote:Ciarin

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

 

I'm not sure what you mean by societal patterns though.

 ( ...actually I'm not sure what I meant by it either , clumsy choice of words on my part. )

   A few final questions and then I'll stop pestering you:

 1.)  Have the heathen religions that you participate in grown large enough to have developed seperate "schisms"  yet ? 

  In other words, it seems that most world religions follow a pattern be they abrahamic ( Judiasm, Christianity, Islam ) or even the less dogmatic Eastern spirtual belief systems ( Hinduism, Buddhism, etc ).  Historically speaking they all seem to eventually break apart into factions and actually come into conflict with their former brethren.  In short, do heathens have doctrinal differences ?

 

Well, sort of. You got the folkish and universalist. It's not really about doctrine, more about blood heritage. Folkish think you have to be of european descent(some even go so far as you must have germanic blood, or pure scandinavian, pure british, etc). Universalists think anyone from any cultural heritage can be heathen. But folkish and universalist can be in the same kindred or organization.

Since their really isn't a heathen doctrine to go by you won't find many doctrinal differences.


 

Quote:

  2.)  Do heathens have apologists ?  Are there persons who intellectually immerse themselves within heathen theology so that they can defend their beliefs to others ?  I know that you said that many of you prefer to remain in stealth mode to avoid being hassled but are there any individuals who put up web-sites, publish literature, etc for the purpose of defending your belief system ?

 

 

There are many heathens that write books and put up websites to make people aware of heathenry and bring more information about it to those who study it. I don't think there are apologists per se, unless you count me since I join atheist websites and answer questions about my faith. I don't join these sites with the goal of defending my beliefs though.

 

 

Quote:
    I'm done. Thanks.

 

You're welcome.


beardedinlair
atheist
beardedinlair's picture
Posts: 70
Joined: 2011-04-04
User is offlineOffline
Agnostic Atheist

Ok, sorry to necropost, but I've got to say, most entertaining thread in the forum, so far.

My best friend is a pagan priest, with a small church, and once I asked him this, "Sometimes when I see a Crow, I get a strange feeling, how can you tell if something is a Portent, or just something that happens?"

His reply, "Personal feeling. If it feels significant, it is significant."

So, Ciarin, I just wanted to say, your lightning story really resonates with me.


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
Thanks.

Thanks.


beardedinlair
atheist
beardedinlair's picture
Posts: 70
Joined: 2011-04-04
User is offlineOffline
Are you willing to share

Are you willing to share other personal experience stories? I can't speak for other atheists of course, but I have no intentions of mocking, debating, or refuting. I find them interesting and entertaining. And sometimes enlightening.

I would bet I'm not the only one here who would find them fascinating, even if they aren't willing to admit it.


Ciarin
Theist
Ciarin's picture
Posts: 778
Joined: 2008-09-08
User is offlineOffline
No thanks.

No thanks.


redneF
atheistRational VIP!
redneF's picture
Posts: 1971
Joined: 2011-01-04
User is offlineOffline
Ciarin wrote:There was one

Ciarin wrote:
I was driving in my car and I was thinking of some things about my faith. I asked for a sign from Woden. Lightning struck a telephone poll nearby.

When aren't you thinking of your faith?...

Ciarin wrote:
There was one time I was at ECT(that's East Coast Thing, a gathering for heathens of denominations), and there was a bonfire and faining to Thunor(commonly known as Thor). Right up until the ritual had started it had been raining, and then suddenly stopped. A huge trunk made of wood and carved with Thor's hammer, Mjolnir, and other runes was placed in the fire as a sacrificial gift to Thunor. It burned as is common for wood to do. But everyone there(about 50-60 people) were astonished that the only part that hadn't burned was the carving of Mjolnir.

So you filmed it for YouTube and National Geographic, and called in the scientists to examine the video and the carving that remained unburned?

Ciarin wrote:
We were all in agreement it was a sign from Thunor and he was pleased with our offering.

That's quite the meta-analysis...

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris