Brian37 vs Ciarin

Brian37
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Brian37 vs Ciarin

As I stated in the other thread, I do not, and hope that you dont either, take this brawl personally, if you chose to partisipate. It is not aimed at you the person, but merely the claims you put forth.

So, if you would start off by giving me a discription of what your position is, we can start from there.

Keep in mind it will get bloody(metephorically speeking). But please understand that after the match is over, we can still have a beer together(meaning we can agree on other issues and be friends outside this dissagreement).

IN THIS CORNER, IT'S THE SULTAIN OF SILLYNISS, THE EINSTIEN OF IDOCY, THE MASTER OF MORONICNESS.......BRIAN37!

IN THE OTHER CORNER, ITS THE DEFENDER OF DEITIES, THE CYBORG OF THEISM ........."CIARIN"

LETS GET READY TO MUMBLE!

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Well, I believe in many

Well, I believe in many gods, germanic and roman especially. Which direction would you like to go with this?


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Ciarin wrote:Well, I believe

Ciarin wrote:

Well, I believe in many gods, germanic and roman especially. Which direction would you like to go with this?

My initial response is that you emotionally like the appeal of the "warm fuzzies" of the motifs of many different claims, but that does me no good emperically.

It is not up to me which god(s) you claim. It is up to you to provide the evidence for claimed god(s).

Mind you, I used to attend a Unitarian Church as an atheist, and I was quite blunt with my Wiccian friend, as I would be with any Christian or Jew or Muslim.

So again, the simplist route is for you to lay out the claims you support and provide evidence for those claims.

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Well, the evidence is mostly

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you. I believe in sacrificing animals as a way to honor the gods. I also honor my friends and ancestors through sumbel(a ritual of toasting you could call it). I believe in wyrd and the actions you take in this life affect you and others who are tied to the wyrd. I believe in luck, I believe in reciprocity, I believe in reputation("you are your deeds" ). I believe in oaths, your word is your bond. I believe if you break your oath then you are a nidthing.

I'm not sure what you'd like to debate.


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Ciarin wrote:Well, the

Ciarin wrote:

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you. I believe in sacrificing animals as a way to honor the gods. I also honor my friends and ancestors through sumbel(a ritual of toasting you could call it). I believe in wyrd and the actions you take in this life affect you and others who are tied to the wyrd. I believe in luck, I believe in reciprocity, I believe in reputation("you are your deeds" ). I believe in oaths, your word is your bond. I believe if you break your oath then you are a nidthing.

I'm not sure what you'd like to debate.

If this is a lose interpretation of "Karma" it is just as silly.

I am merely saying just because you claim, "I am not like the others", doesn't mean that you are not hooked on "warm fuzzie" idealism which has no basis in reality.

I love my friends and family, even the ones who do believe in some sort of magic, but that has nothing to do that despite the natural need to scratch each other's back to move forward, that there is not is some magical cosmic reason for scratching each other's back. There isn't  a magical reason for survival, it just is. And the longer you take a sample of any given species the more you realize that although the common goal is to survive, the outcome is a crapshoot.

Otherwise "Karma" explains reality as well as Voo Doo dolls.

The fact remains that we group in clubs but even within those clubs we fail to see that mutual recipocation is not magical, but benificial, even outside our own label.

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Quote:in other words, it's

Quote:
in other words, it's anecdotal

Yea, I can find morals in Harry Potter or The Cat In The Hat, but I do not litterally believe that a boy can fly around on a broom, or that a litteral feline can cook my breakfest food.

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I think some people like to

I think some people like to compare it to karma, mostly because they're thinking of the western version of karma, but I don't think they're similar, other than the idea of "cause and effect".

 


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Brian37 wrote:Quote:in other

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
in other words, it's anecdotal

Yea, I can find morals in Harry Potter or The Cat In The Hat, but I do not litterally believe that a boy can fly around on a broom, or that a litteral feline can cook my breakfest food.

 

LOL what's the moral of Cat in the Hat?

 

I can find morals in many books as well, I don't get what your point is here.


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Ciarin wrote:Brian37

Ciarin wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
in other words, it's anecdotal

Yea, I can find morals in Harry Potter or The Cat In The Hat, but I do not litterally believe that a boy can fly around on a broom, or that a litteral feline can cook my breakfest food.

 

LOL what's the moral of Cat in the Hat?

 

I can find morals in many books as well, I don't get what your point is here.

That you eventually outgrow childish fantasies , much like Peter Pan.

You still have not postulated the existence, or defined, the god(s) you claim or real, other than to call them anecdotal.

"Don't eat yellow snow" does not mean that Osirus exists, much less he pissed in snow you contemplated eating.

You seem like a nice person, but hardly armed with the ammo that theologians I am used to.

I advise you not to bring a squirt gun to a gunfight.

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:That you

Brian37 wrote:

That you eventually outgrow childish fantasies , much like Peter Pan.

ah, it's been a long while since I've read it.

Quote:

You still have no postulated the existence, or defined, the god(s) you claim or real, other than to call them anecdotal.

The gods aren't anecdotal, the evidence for their existence is.

Quote:

"Don't eat yellow snow" does not mean that Osirus exists, much less he pissed in snow you contemplated eating,

ok, I don't think I said as much.


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Brian37 wrote:You seem like

Brian37 wrote:

You seem like a nice person, but hardly armed with the ammo that theologians I am used to.

I advise you not to bring a squirt gun to a gunfight.

 

LOL, ok. Perhaps we need a specific topic, cause asking me to prove my gods are real isn't going to work.


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Quote:The gods aren't

Quote:
The gods aren't anecdotal, the evidence for their existence is.

A history of claims is not a history of evidence. I am certain that you do not buy every diety claim put in front of you.

Did it ever occur to you that you merely like what you believe?

 

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Ciarin wrote:Brian37

Ciarin wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

You seem like a nice person, but hardly armed with the ammo that theologians I am used to.

I advise you not to bring a squirt gun to a gunfight.

 

LOL, ok. Perhaps we need a specific topic, cause asking me to prove my gods are real isn't going to work.

Why? Because you don't want to name them or define their powers? You are absoultly right. We cant get any where untill we know what we are dealing with, but since I am not the one claiming the god(s) you have yet to propose, I don't know what I am dealing with.(although in all honesty, my safest bet would be that you want your utopia to be real.)

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Brian37 wrote:Quote:The gods

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
The gods aren't anecdotal, the evidence for their existence is.

A history of claims is not a history of evidence.

Exactly.

Quote:

I am certain that you do not buy every diety claim put in front of you.

Well, I don't think other gods don't exist, I just don't care about them one way or the other.

 

Quote:

Did it ever occur to you that you merely like what you believe?

 

I love what I believe, if I didn't, why would I believe it?

 

 


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Brian37 wrote:Ciarin

Brian37 wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

LOL, ok. Perhaps we need a specific topic, cause asking me to prove my gods are real isn't going to work.

Why?

Because I don't have any evidence to show you.

Quote:

Because you don't want to name them or define their powers?

I can name them. Would you like me to name all of them? cause that'll be a pretty long list.

Quote:

You are absoultly right. We cant get any where untill we know what we are dealing with, but since I am not the one claiming the god(s) you have yet to propose, I don't know what I am dealing with.(although in all honesty, my safest bet would be that you want your utopia to be real.)

 

I don't have a utopia.

 


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Ciarin wrote:Brian37

Ciarin wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

You seem like a nice person, but hardly armed with the ammo that theologians I am used to.

I advise you not to bring a squirt gun to a gunfight.

 

LOL, ok. Perhaps we need a specific topic, cause asking me to prove my gods are real isn't going to work.

I am not going to play a game of chicken "eye blink" with you, because reality is not a standoff, anymore than gravity is a reusult of Micky Mouse or Anglina Jolie.

YOU pick your spacific claim and present it. I invited you to take the first punch, but so far I feel like I am getting marshmellows.

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Ciarin wrote:Brian37

Ciarin wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

LOL, ok. Perhaps we need a specific topic, cause asking me to prove my gods are real isn't going to work.

Why?

Because I don't have any evidence to show you.

Quote:

Because you don't want to name them or define their powers?

I can name them. Would you like me to name all of them? cause that'll be a pretty long list.

Quote:

You are absoultly right. We cant get any where untill we know what we are dealing with, but since I am not the one claiming the god(s) you have yet to propose, I don't know what I am dealing with.(although in all honesty, my safest bet would be that you want your utopia to be real.)

 

I don't have a utopia.

 

Yes you do, otherwise you would not believe in a god or gods. Those are merely human inventions of what we want to save us from the inevitalble death that even the universe will face.

You have simply bought into a concoction of warm fuzzy feeligns distracting you away from reality.

 

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Brian37 wrote:Yes you do,

Brian37 wrote:

Yes you do, otherwise you would not believe in a god or gods.

If this is utopia then it's a pretty sucky one. I imagine utopia to be like disneyland but with more porn.

Quote:

Those are merely human inventions of what we want to save us from the inevitalble death that even the universe will face.

What do you mean by "save us"?

Quote:

You have simply bought into a concoction of warm fuzzy feeligns distracting you away from reality.

 

If it's distracting me from reality, it's not doing a very good job of it.


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Brian37 wrote:I am not going

Brian37 wrote:


I am not going to play a game of chicken "eye blink" with you, because reality is not a standoff, anymore than gravity is a reusult of Micky Mouse or Anglina Jolie.

YOU pick your spacific claim and present it. I invited you to take the first punch, but so far I feel like I am getting marshmellows.

 

Why is it supposed to be a punch?

 

Also, I keep asking you what specifically you want to talk about about and all I get back is "make your claim". Well I claim a lot of things. I've named some already. Your best response is "well that's silly".

 

This isn't like christianity or islam where I claim that my way is the only true way and you have to believe it. Not only do I think my way isn't the only true way for everyone else, but I also don't think everyone should believe in it. I think you're trying to get me to say, "I believe in Odin, and you should too, cause he's real and this is why, etc". It just doesn't work that way.

 

I'm guessing this isn't going to be much of a debate.


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Ciarin wrote:Well, I believe

Ciarin wrote:

Well, I believe in many gods, germanic and roman especially. Which direction would you like to go with this?

I'm going to jump in here. List out the gods you believe in.

 

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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Interesting thread.Ciarin

Interesting thread.

Ciarin wrote:
Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Obviously, personal experiences can't lend much support in a debate, but do you think you could provide a few examples?

Ciarin wrote:
I believe if you break your oath then you are a nidthing.

What is a nidthing?

Ciarin wrote:
I love what I believe, if I didn't, why would I believe it?

Beat you to it Brian. Muhuhahaha.

But, when you believe in something, you are supporting that this "something" holds truth value or, rather, it conforms to reality. If this is the case, then, in order for your beliefs to be justified, they must be supported with reason and evidence. Not only is enjoyment of beliefs subjective, but, undoubtedly, the truth of something is not dependent upon whether you would love believing it. Otherwise, I would believe that 72 submissive virgins awaited me in heaven.  

Ciarin wrote:
If this is utopia then it's a pretty sucky one. I imagine utopia to be like disneyland but with more porn.

Ciarin wrote:
This isn't like christianity or islam where I claim that my way is the only true way and you have to believe it.

Hmmm, obviously, none of us are obligated to believe each other, but how can there be more than one "true way?" If you hold to any worldview, you must necessarily believe that all other worldviews are false. Right?  

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Christos wrote:Ciarin

Christos wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

Well, I believe in many gods, germanic and roman especially. Which direction would you like to go with this?

I'm going to jump in here. List out the gods you believe in.

 

 

Woden

Thunor

Freo

Frige

Helle

Eostre

Erce

Ingui-Frea

Tiw

Mann

Helið

Seaxneat

Hama

Wuldor

 

Jupiter

Minerva

Mithras

Oceanus

Mars

Diana

Venus

Vesta

Janus

Concordia

Carmenta

Quirinus

Ceres

Flora

Furrina

Palatua

Pomona

Portunas

Vulcan

Fortuna

Proserpina

 

 

I could go on if you wish, there are hundreds of roman ones....Jeff the God of Biscuits and so on....


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butterbattle

butterbattle wrote:

Interesting thread.

Ciarin wrote:
Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Obviously, personal experiences can't lend much support in a debate, but do you think you could provide a few examples?

 

I was driving in my car and I was thinking of some things about my faith. I asked for a sign from Woden. Lightning struck a telephone poll nearby. I would call that a sign others may call it a coincidence since Florida is the lightning capital of the world. This is why it's UPG and won't work as evidence. I've also had dreams of being with the gods. When I'm in sumbel I can feel the presence of wights. There was one time I was at ECT(that's East Coast Thing, a gathering for heathens of denominations), and there was a bonfire and faining to Thunor(commonly known as Thor). Right up until the ritual had started it had been raining, and then suddenly stopped. A huge trunk made of wood and carved with Thor's hammer, Mjolnir, and other runes was placed in the fire as a sacrificial gift to Thunor. It burned as is common for wood to do. But everyone there(about 50-60 people) were astonished that the only part that hadn't burned was the carving of Mjolnir. We were all in agreement it was a sign from Thunor and he was pleased with our offering.

 

None of that would be accepted as evidence of a god or gods, however. So I don't really feel the need to bring it up usually.

 

Quote:

Ciarin wrote:
I believe if you break your oath then you are a nidthing.

What is a nidthing?

 

It's something you call someone who is a coward,a  liar, and oath-breaker, scum of the earth, etc. here's some wikipedia for ya: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Níð

 

Quote:

Ciarin wrote:
I love what I believe, if I didn't, why would I believe it?

Beat you to it Brian. Muhuhahaha.

But, when you believe in something, you are supporting that this "something" holds truth value or, rather, it conforms to reality. If this is the case, then, in order for your beliefs to be justified, they must be supported with reason and evidence. Not only is enjoyment of beliefs subjective, but, undoubtedly, the truth of something is not dependent upon whether you would love believing it. Otherwise, I would believe that 72 submissive virgins awaited me in heaven.

Belief doesn't make it real, I agree. I believe it's real for me, and I just happen to love believing in it.

Quote:

Ciarin wrote:
This isn't like christianity or islam where I claim that my way is the only true way and you have to believe it.

Hmmm, obviously, none of us are obligated to believe each other, but how can there be more than one "true way?" If you hold to any worldview, you must necessarily believe that all other worldviews are false. Right?  

 

No, it's called religious pluralism, I believe everyone must choose their own path(or no path in the case of atheists).

 

Here is a quote from the website of one of the orgs I'm a member of and it sums up my view perfectly:

 

"It is the official position of the Sácerdhád that the truth claims of any religion, with regard to its doctrines or teachings concerning divinity, can only be justified within the context of a religious tradition. From a purely epistemic standpoint, belief in the Gods cannot be satisfactorily justified without recourse to personal gnosis or religious experiences/revelations as evidence. Therefore, the goal of epistemology within the tradition of Fyrnsidu cannot be to prove the truth of our religious doctrines, but rather to understand them. So long as these doctrines continue to advance the stated goals of the tradition, then their veracity need not be challenged from an epistemic standpoint, as the existence of the Gods and wights of Fyrnsidu cannot be demonstrated with absolute certainty except from a position of faith."


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Ciarin wrote:I was driving

Ciarin wrote:

I was driving in my car and I was thinking of some things about my faith. I asked for a sign from Woden. Lightning struck a telephone poll nearby. I would call that a sign others may call it a coincidence since Florida is the lightning capital of the world. This is why it's UPG and won't work as evidence. I've also had dreams of being with the gods. When I'm in sumbel I can feel the presence of wights. There was one time I was at ECT(that's East Coast Thing, a gathering for heathens of denominations), and there was a bonfire and faining to Thunor(commonly known as Thor). Right up until the ritual had started it had been raining, and then suddenly stopped. A huge trunk made of wood and carved with Thor's hammer, Mjolnir, and other runes was placed in the fire as a sacrificial gift to Thunor. It burned as is common for wood to do. But everyone there(about 50-60 people) were astonished that the only part that hadn't burned was the carving of Mjolnir. We were all in agreement it was a sign from Thunor and he was pleased with our offering.

Yep, that's about what I expected. The one with Mjolnir sounds pretty interesting though.

Quote:
Belief doesn't make it real, I agree. I believe it's real for me, and I just happen to love believing in it.

Feels kind of fallacious. Oh well.

Quote:
"It is the official position of the Sácerdhád that the truth claims of any religion, with regard to its doctrines or teachings concerning divinity, can only be justified within the context of a religious tradition. From a purely epistemic standpoint, belief in the Gods cannot be satisfactorily justified without recourse to personal gnosis or religious experiences/revelations as evidence. Therefore, the goal of epistemology within the tradition of Fyrnsidu cannot be to prove the truth of our religious doctrines, but rather to understand them. So long as these doctrines continue to advance the stated goals of the tradition, then their veracity need not be challenged from an epistemic standpoint, as the existence of the Gods and wights of Fyrnsidu cannot be demonstrated with absolute certainty except from a position of faith."

Based on this, it sounds like, from a neutral perspective, all religious beliefs would be equally justified, for one cannot be sure that certain beliefs are correct unless they have already been accepted on faith. Is this a valid assessment?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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For the record Ciarin, you

For the record Ciarin, you believe in way cooler gods then most of the shmucks we get around here.

 

Now if you would add

 

Khorne

Tzeentch

Slaanesh

Nurgle

 

to that list, you'll have ol' Doomy's support

Whats 4 more gods, right?

What Would Kharn Do?


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butterbattle wrote:Based on

butterbattle wrote:

Based on this, it sounds like, from a neutral perspective, all religious beliefs would be equally justified, for one cannot be sure that certain beliefs are correct unless they have already been accepted on faith. Is this a valid assessment?

 

for the most part, yes. I think some religious beliefs are stupid and terrible though, for example circumcision(male and female), scientology, martyrdom for 72 virgins, etc.


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The Doomed Soul wrote:For

The Doomed Soul wrote:

For the record Ciarin, you believe in way cooler gods then most of the shmucks we get around here.

 

Now if you would add

 

Khorne

Tzeentch

Slaanesh

Nurgle

 

to that list, you'll have ol' Doomy's support

Whats 4 more gods, right?

 

haha! Thanks.

 

I might add them if they are worthy. Are they worthy?


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Ciarin

Ciarin wrote:

 

 

Woden

Thunor

Freo

Frige

Helle

Eostre

Erce

Ingui-Frea

Tiw

Mann

Helið

Seaxneat

Hama

Wuldor

 

 

 

What about Loki ? Don't you worship him too ? Loki's kewl.


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Ciarin wrote:I believe in

Ciarin wrote:

I believe in sacrificing animals as a way to honor the gods.

As an atheist and a vegetarian I find this abhorrent. We are living in the 21st century after all. Do you actually partake in the ritualistic killing of animals? What animals do you kill? Care to explain the ceremony?

I can understand people killing animals for food (even if I disagree), but someone slitting an animals throat while chanting or praying to their god/gods seems so barbaric.


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Ciarin wrote:for the most

Ciarin wrote:

for the most part, yes. I think some religious beliefs are stupid and terrible though, for example circumcision(male and female), scientology, martyrdom for 72 virgins, etc.

You mean like religions that sacrifice animals? Animal sacrifice sounds pretty stupid and terrible to me.

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Badbark wrote:Ciarin wrote:I

Badbark wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

I believe in sacrificing animals as a way to honor the gods.

As an atheist and a vegetarian I find this abhorrent. We are living in the 21st century after all. Do you actually partake in the ritualistic killing of animals? What animals do you kill? Care to explain the ceremony?

I can understand people killing animals for food (even if I disagree), but someone slitting an animals throat while chanting or praying to their god/gods seems so barbaric.

 

 

That settles that

What Would Kharn Do?


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Anonymouse wrote: What

Anonymouse wrote:

 

What about Loki ? Don't you worship him too ? Loki's kewl.

 

I don't exactly worship anyone, but I guess you could call it that. But anyway, there's 2 things. One, Loki isn't really part of the Anglo-Saxon pantheon. And 2, even if he was he's considered unworthy by most heathens. There are some who give honor to him, and this is usually frowned upon at public rituals. These same kind of people usually equate Loki with "Chaos" and that life needs a bit of chaos, etc. They do the same for the other Eotenas(Jotnar), who are considered enemies of the gods.

It's a bit of a debate that comes up from time to time on the heathen lists.


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Badbark wrote:Ciarin wrote:I

Badbark wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

I believe in sacrificing animals as a way to honor the gods.

As an atheist and a vegetarian I find this abhorrent.

Most vegetarians would, I don't see how being an atheist would matter though. Meat is meat, no matter how you cook it right?

Quote:

We are living in the 21st century after all. Do you actually partake in the ritualistic killing of animals? What animals do you kill? Care to explain the ceremony?

 

Pig mostly, although I've had boar, bear, and deer before. I don't kill them myself, it's usually done by the fellow hosting the ceremony.

The ceremony is called blot. The animal is raised on the farm, and then when the time comes he's moved to a pen by himself. Before the ceremony he is fed guiness(this probably isn't typical, it's just what they did at the ones I've attended). The ceremony begins with a galdr(a song sung in old norse or old english), the animal is blessed. The animal is killed(usually by a small caliber bullet to the head, but I've also seen a slice on the carotid used, like what they do to make food kosher if you're jewish), and the blood is drained into a bowl. Everyone stands in a circle or semi circle and is asperged with the blood. Afterwords each person can go up to the carcass and thank the animal for being a sacrifice. The animal is gutted and cleaned. Then butchered. First thing to get cooked is usually the ribs, and those are so yummy(I know you don't like meat but I love 'em; there ain't nothing like fresh pork ribs). Other cuts of meat gets cooked and eaten at Husel(the feast after the blot). Anything not eaten is burned in the fire.

Quote:

I can understand people killing animals for food (even if I disagree), but someone slitting an animals throat while chanting or praying to their god/gods seems so barbaric.

I find factory farming barbaric. To each their own I guess. And by the way, we don't chant.


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Christos wrote:Ciarin

Christos wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

for the most part, yes. I think some religious beliefs are stupid and terrible though, for example circumcision(male and female), scientology, martyrdom for 72 virgins, etc.

You mean like religions that sacrifice animals? Animal sacrifice sounds pretty stupid and terrible to me.

 

If you're not a vegetarian then what you just said makes me think you're a hypocrite.


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The Doomed Soul

The Doomed Soul wrote:

Badbark wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

I believe in sacrificing animals as a way to honor the gods.

As an atheist and a vegetarian I find this abhorrent. We are living in the 21st century after all. Do you actually partake in the ritualistic killing of animals? What animals do you kill? Care to explain the ceremony?

I can understand people killing animals for food (even if I disagree), but someone slitting an animals throat while chanting or praying to their god/gods seems so barbaric.

 

 

That settles that

 

LOL right on!


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I was expecting something

I was expecting something more than, "I like what I believe".

BUT now that you have said that, THAT IS EXACTLY THE ATHEIST POINTS OUT.

You listed a plethora of gods, but so what? What evidence, other than a history of claims and depictions  of claimed gods, do you have?

I'll tell you what you have, the same amount of evidence as any other religion monotheistic or polytheistic.  You have nothing, and if all you have is "I like what I believe" I will tell you what I tell other people of other beliefs.

If gap answers satisfy you, that is on you. I am not.

Did it ever occur to you that the only reason(and a bad one at that) the only reason you believe in these gods, is "because I like them".

Is that really a good way to go through life?

When you buy a used car, would you simply buy it because of it's color, or would you kick the tires and have a mechanic check it out?

I hate to let you down. I really was looking forward to a good brawl, but other theists here go way beyond that.

I would challenge you, as I do all theists, to focus on the fact that you "like" something, then go beyond that, and ask yourself is this really real, or is it merely all in my head.

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:I was

Brian37 wrote:

I was expecting something more than, "I like what I believe".

 

Ok.

Quote:

BUT now that you have said that, THAT IS EXACTLY THE ATHEIST POINTS OUT.

 

Exactly the what?

Quote:

You listed a plethora of gods, but so what?

 

so someone asked me to list them so I did.

Quote:

What evidence, other than a history of claims and depictions  of claimed gods, do you have?

 

Um...I believe I've already indicated that I have no evidence for you? Did you think I was lying?

 

Quote:

I'll tell you what you have, the same amount of evidence as any other religion monotheistic or polytheistic.

 

I believe I've already said as much, lol. I told you asking me for evidence of the gods wasn't going to work. Sorry I can't give you the awesome athiest vs theist debate you wanted. There's just no evidence to debate.

 

Quote:

  You have nothing, and if all you have is "I like what I believe" I will tell you what I tell other people of other beliefs.

 

I also have UPG, which doesn't matter to you, but it certainly matter to me.

 

Quote:

If gap answers satisfy you, that is on you. I am not.

I don't have a god of the gaps if that's what you mean.

Quote:

Did it ever occur to you that the only reason(and a bad one at that) the only reason you believe in these gods, is "because I like them".

 

The fact that I like my beliefs isn't an indication that it's the only reason I believe them. Has it ever occurred to you that I believe what I believe because I think it's true? I also liked it when I was Wiccan, but I no longer believe in it. Obviously me liking the beliefs isn't the deciding factor on whether or not I believe it. I also like the ADF, but I'm not a druid.

Quote:

Is that really a good way to go through life?

Speaking in general if someone feels good about believing what they believe I find no problem with that as long as they're not imposing it on others.

Quote:

When you buy a used car, would you simply buy it because of it's color, or would you kick the tires and have a mechanic check it out?

 

LOL, it's kind of funny that you're using a car analogy. Wanna know how I bought my current car(MINI Cooper)? I watched the Italian Job one night. The next day I custom ordered a 2008 MINI Cooper from miniusa.com AND I LOVE IT! I suggest you test drive one if you haven't done so, cause those cars are just sweet.

But to answer your question, when I bought my first car, I did kick the tires, but didn't have a mechanic check it out. I knew it was a POS when I bought. I planned on fixing it up myself, which I did. It was a 1986 Camaro IROC-Z28, with t-tops, hehe. Unfortunately by the timeI got around to fixing the breaks, I crashed it. But it was a nice learning experience.

Quote:

I hate to let you down. I really was looking forward to a good brawl, but other theists here go way beyond that.

 

Yea, I figured as much. Most arguments against theism don't exactly apply to me. I already admit to no evidence, I don't claim to follow the one true religion, I don't think everyone should follow my religion or believe in any of the gods, etc. Why do you think I never started a thread on it?

 

Quote:

I would challenge you, as I do all theists, to focus on the fact that you "like" something, then go beyond that, and ask yourself is this really real, or is it merely all in my head.

 

Ok, but I should inform you I've already been told to do this(by other atheists), and I still believe in my religion so don't expect much.


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Quote:I already admit to no

Quote:
I already admit to no evidence, I don't claim to follow the one true religion, I don't think everyone should follow my religion or believe in any of the gods, etc. Why do you think I never started a thread on it?

So if you admit you dont have any evidence, and you admit that you "merely like it", my question to you is why?

If someone asked you to jump off a cliff, and could not give you any valid reason as to why, would you do it?

Liking something is not a good reason to hold a position, on any issue, not just religion.

One of my favorite comedians, Richard Jenny, committed suicide because he baught into the lie, "If you work hard enough". He gave up because he bought into the cliche that if you dont fatten your wallet and live in a mansion, you are a loser. He liked that idea so much, that when reality hit him, he couldn't cope.

The reality is that in a free market, all classes are needed, and not all will climb to the top.

Now, just like your "I like what I believe", to be bluntly honest with you, is causing you to waste your life on fantacy. BY NO MEANS, am I suggesting that you'll end up drinking Kool Aid.

BUT, if you could find out, or someone pointed out that you were making a mistake, AND YOU REALLY WERE, would you allow your ego to cling to that position, or would you thank the person for correcting you?

I know that in school, or at work, when someone saw me making a mistake, I thanked them, instead of holding my position out of ego.

THAT is what makes evidence so important. Evidence is not ego driven or agenda driven. Your beliefs are not a casual pastime like a sport, and even sports fans take their clearly arbitrary favortism seriously to the point where they act like gangs.

I am not saying you will do that. I am saying that blindly believing something "just because" can at a minimum, lead you to waste your life chacing after myth, at worst, it leads humans to do horrible things.

Instead of saying, "I like what I believe", I'd suggest the best thing for you to do is BE SURE. This is the only life you have.

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Brian37 wrote:So if you

Brian37 wrote:

So if you admit you dont have any evidence, and you admit that you "merely like it", my question to you is why?

 

Where did I admit that I merely like it?

 

Quote:

If someone asked you to jump off a cliff, and could not give you any valid reason as to why, would you do it?

sure.

 

 

With a hang glider of course, hehe.

 

Quote:

Liking something is not a good reason to hold a position, on any issue, not just religion.

ok.

Quote:

One of my favorite comedians, Richard Jenny, committed suicide because he baught into the lie, "If you work hard enough". He gave up because he bought into the cliche that if you dont fatten your wallet and live in a mansion, you are a loser. He liked that idea so much, that when reality hit him, he couldn't cope.

 

I know.

Quote:

The reality is that in a free market, all classes are needed, and not all will climb to the top.

 

that is true.

 

Quote:

Now, just like your "I like what I believe", to be bluntly honest with you, is causing you to waste your life on fantacy. BY NO MEANS, am I suggesting that you'll end up drinking Kool Aid.

Me liking what I believe doesn't cause anything except for enjoying what I believe.

Quote:

BUT, if you could find out, or someone pointed out that you were making a mistake, AND YOU REALLY WERE, would you allow your ego to cling to that position, or would you thank the person for correcting you?

 

If someone were able to prove my beliefs wrong I would thank the person for correcting me. I don't mind being corrected.

 

Quote:

I know that in school, or at work, when someone saw me making a mistake, I thanked them, instead of holding my position out of ego.

 

Me too.

 

Quote:

THAT is what makes evidence so important. Evidence is not ego driven or agenda driven. Your beliefs are not a casual pastime like a sport, and even sports fans take their clearly arbitrary favortism seriously to the point where they act like gangs.

 

Ok. The evidence I have for myself isn't ego or agenda driven.

Quote:

I am not saying you will do that. I am saying that blindly believing something "just because" can at a minimum, lead you to waste your life chacing after myth, at worst, it leads humans to do horrible things.

 

I agree, blind faith is crap.

 

Quote:

Instead of saying, "I like what I believe", I'd suggest the best thing for you to do is BE SURE. This is the only life you have.

 

Would you rather I didn't like what I believe? I don't really understand why you keep bringing up that I like my beliefs. It's as if you think that's the only reason I believe what I believe despite me telling you that that's not the reason.


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Ciarin wrote:If you're not a

Ciarin wrote:

If you're not a vegetarian then what you just said makes me think you're a hypocrite.

No, it makes me someone who doesn't ritually sacrifice animals to please long dead gods. Religion has generally progressed past the silly idea of animal sacrifice. Religion has also progressed past the silly idea of polytheism.

I'm not sure what's so appealing about your religion. This is a modern re-incarnation of a dead religion. Don't you remember when Christians were brutally killed by your predecessors before the Edict of Milan? Somehow, despite persecution, Christianity won the debate between monotheism and the polytheistic Roman cult.

I'm not saying you should be a Christian, but Holy Shit Ciarin, this Roman cult is ridiculously stupid.

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Quote:The fact that I like

Quote:
The fact that I like my beliefs isn't an indication that it's the only reason I believe them. Has it ever occurred to you that I believe what I believe because I think it's true?

DUH! I think we have established the fact that you think it is true. But please tell me WHY you think your gun is loaded when you admit that you have no evidence?

"I like what I believe" is not evidence.

 So what are these other non-anicdotal "evidences" you can replicate in a lab setting?

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Christos wrote:Ciarin

Christos wrote:

Ciarin wrote:

If you're not a vegetarian then what you just said makes me think you're a hypocrite.

No, it makes me someone who doesn't ritually sacrifice animals to please long dead gods. Religion has generally progressed past the silly idea of animal sacrifice. Religion has also progressed past the silly idea of polytheism.

I'm not sure what's so appealing about your religion. This is a modern re-incarnation of a dead religion. Don't you remember when Christians were brutally killed by your predecessors before the Edict of Milan? Somehow, despite persecution, Christianity won the debate between monotheism and the polytheistic Roman cult.

I'm not saying you should be a Christian, but Holy Shit Ciarin, this Roman cult is ridiculously stupid.

 

OK 3 things.

 

One, the animal sacrifice I described is from germanic heathenism. I have yet to know of any roman recons to sacrifice an animal.

 

Two, it's not a dead religion if there are still believers.

 

And last, it's an animal. We eat animals. They taste good. So if you eat animals too, then you have no room to talk about animal sacrifice. In fact, to raise an animal on a farm, kill it, and eat it is a helluva lot more humane and ethical than what you buy in the grocery store from factory farming. What difference does it make if we say a few words while we do it?

Next time you go to McDonald's have a good time eating your hypocrite burger w/cheese. I hope it tastes real good.


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Brian37 wrote:Quote:The fact

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
The fact that I like my beliefs isn't an indication that it's the only reason I believe them. Has it ever occurred to you that I believe what I believe because I think it's true?

DUH! I think we have established the fact that you think it is true. But please tell me WHY you think your gun is loaded when you admit that you have no evidence?

 

The evidence I have is UPG. I believe I told you this already. Pay attention please.

 

Quote:

"I like what I believe" is not evidence.

 

I did not give this as evidence. You asked me if I like what I believe and I answered honestly.

 

Quote:

 So what are these other non-anicdotal "evidences" you can replicate in a lab setting?

 

Shall I reiterate it yet again for you? I'll just copy and paste it over and over again and maybe it'll stick this time.

 

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

 


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Are we just going to keep

Are we just going to keep going around and around in circle?

 

"you like your beliefs?"

 

"I surely do"

 

"THAT'S NOT EVIDENCE"

 

"I never said it was"

 

"Where's your evidence?"

 

"It's just personal experience, nothing objective or scientifically verifiable"

 

"Where's your evidence?"

 

"It's just personal experience, nothing objective or scientifically verifiable"

 

"Liking your beliefs isn't evidence"

 

"I never said it was"

 

"Where's your evidence?"

 

"It's just personal experience, nothing objective or scientifically verifiable"

 

and round and round we go.


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  No offense to either

  No offense to either party participating in this thread but wow, this debate...was....really, ugh, you know...sort of pointless .  

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Ciarin wrote:Well, the

Ciarin wrote:

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Do you believe that all people's UPG are equally valid?


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Ciarin wrote: Two, it's not

Ciarin wrote:

 

Two, it's not a dead religion if there are still believers.

 

And last, it's an animal. We eat animals. They taste good. So if you eat animals too, then you have no room to talk about animal sacrifice. In fact, to raise an animal on a farm, kill it, and eat it is a helluva lot more humane and ethical than what you buy in the grocery store from factory farming. What difference does it make if we say a few words while we do it?

Next time you go to McDonald's have a good time eating your hypocrite burger w/cheese. I hope it tastes real good.

I've always wondered why there are still believers. These pagan religion died. Then 20th century people bring these dead religions back to life. Why is that necessary? These gods are dead. They don't exist. It's a crazy joke. Your religions had their time, were defeated philosophically by monotheism, and faded into oblivion. Your religion disappeared for a reason.......it's wrong. Completely wrong.

Well, believe it or not, I've never had a Big Mac. I do eat meat. Here is the difference: I eat meat because people need to be fed. However, I don't eat the meat as a pleasing sacrifice to God. I don't eat it as a useless sacrifice to some dead germanic god.

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Ciarin wrote:Brian37

Ciarin wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
The fact that I like my beliefs isn't an indication that it's the only reason I believe them. Has it ever occurred to you that I believe what I believe because I think it's true?

DUH! I think we have established the fact that you think it is true. But please tell me WHY you think your gun is loaded when you admit that you have no evidence?

 

The evidence I have is UPG. I believe I told you this already. Pay attention please.

 

Quote:

"I like what I believe" is not evidence.

 

I did not give this as evidence. You asked me if I like what I believe and I answered honestly.

 

Quote:

 So what are these other non-anicdotal "evidences" you can replicate in a lab setting?

 

Shall I reiterate it yet again for you? I'll just copy and paste it over and over again and maybe it'll stick this time.

 

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

Well, the evidence is mostly UPG(in other words, it's anecdotal), so it'll do nothing for you.

 

No we are not going to keep going around in a circle, because it is quite obvious you don't like challenges. You are stuck in the same pollitically correct "whatever floats your boat".

I agree that if you are not harming me that you can do what you like.

I am not interested in that.

YOU claim that you believe, beyond merely "liking it"

I am telling you that it is merely liking it.

You think the challenge is to me, which is your mistake. Your challenge is to yourself, not me. I am simply trying to open the door for you so that you can see that.

 

 

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Christos wrote:Your religion

Christos wrote:

Your religion disappeared for a reason.......it's wrong. Completely wrong.

I don't see how it is any less likely then your religion.  In fact in many ways it seems more likely because it doesn't involve an all powerful being that constantly contradicts itself.


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I like you Ciarin  Oh, and

I like you Ciarin Smiling

 

Oh, and Doomy:

 

Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle, Tzeensh

 

Oooohhhh yeeeaaarhh Smiling

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RatDog wrote:Christos

RatDog wrote:

Christos wrote:

Your religion disappeared for a reason.......it's wrong. Completely wrong.

I don't see how it is any less likely then your religion.  In fact in many ways it seems more likely because it doesn't involve an all powerful being that constantly contradicts itself.

I agree. In fact, the very characteristics of any "omni" or "perfect" being are logically unworkable.

Second,

Finally, Ciarin, if your beliefs are based mostly on personal experiences, and you accept that personal experiences are unreliable, then how do you know you are right, especially when/if your belief contradict science? Is there anything that makes your personal experiences more valid than anyone else's personal experiences other than the fact that your personal experiences are yours? If not, do you take your beliefs with a pinch of agnosticism?   

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare