Jusitification for my religious beliefs

The Hammer
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Jusitification for my religious beliefs

Hello everyone. I wanted to post a defense of my Jewish beliefs.

1) The Tanakh: The Tanakh encompasses all of God's commands for daily life (ie Kosher laws, Sabbath restirctions or circumcision practices). It also contains the story of the Jewish people from the golden age of the monarchy, through the exile, through Greek and Roman conquests. The Tanakh contains depths of knowledge about human life in relationship with Hashem.

2) The Mishnah and the Talmuds: At times, the Tanakh is archaic and difficult to understand. Commandments that were applicable 3000 years ago no longer have practical significance today. The Mishnah represents Hashem's continued revealtion to the Jewish people through oral tradition. The Talmud updates the Torah to be more applicable to daily life in accordance with God's progressive revelation.

3) Failure of the Jewish monarchy: King Solomon built the incredible Temple in Jerusalem. However, Solomon was also essentially a henotheist. This practice of henotheism continued through the divided monarchy (see Chronicles). Their failure demonstrates the necessity for Jews to maintain worship in the one true God.

4) The survival of the Jewish people: My people faced constant persecution from the exile until the modern day (like the Holocaust denying bishops or the Israeli tennis player barred from Dubai). We faced Christian pogroms under the Roman Empire, Medieval kingdoms, and (to a lesser extent) Muslim kingdoms. We were falsely accused by Christians of host desecration, and the sacrifice of Christian children. All we wanted as a Diaspora people was tolerance. As emancipation began, with the enlightenment, we were hated no just for our religion, but for simply being Jews ethnically. Obviously, the Holocaust was the culmination of more then 2000 years of hatred, bigotry and ignorance. If you don't read anything else above, read this: I am a Jew because I cannot deny my heritage, my people and my God. We died for our beliefs, and we suffering because of our ethnicity. I am furious with God for allowing the Shoah. But the Jewish faith and tradition will not end with me.

5) Jewish Culture: Many Jews today don't believe in God. The majority of Israelis are non-religious. However, even if I didn't believe in God, I would still hold to the religious traditions of Judaism. Jewish practices such as holidays, the Sabbath and Kosher laws are an important part of who I am and where I came from.

 

Note: Don't assume that I have a literal Christian understanding of the Bible. Remember, my people wrote these books.

Also, just for better understanding...The Mishnah is the oral tradition of the Torah written in 200 CE. It is viewed as a holy text. The Talmud is commentary on the Tanakh and the Mishnah. Hamshem is a Jewish name for God. Finally, henotheism is the belief in many gods, with one god as the supreme god above the rest.

Finally, I would really appreciate it if no one used the divine name on this thread (YHWH). Don't spell it out please.

Baruch atah Adonai ki tov


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  Oh boy,  I suspect that

  Oh boy,  I suspect that you and A_Nony_Mouse are going to have some interesting exchanges....

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 Quote:1) The Tanakh: The

 

Quote:
1) The Tanakh: The Tanakh encompasses all of God's commands

How do you know they're god's commands and not just somebody's idea of what a made up deity wanted?

Quote:
2) The Mishnah and the Talmuds:

So, you're saying that the fact that ancient texts proved unwieldy, and then people wrote new texts that happened to be more applicable to their own time, that this proves that God... um.... what?  I really don't see how this has anything to do with anything except people writing about their own time.

Quote:
3) Failure of the Jewish monarchy: King Solomon built the incredible Temple in Jerusalem. However, Solomon was also essentially a henotheist. This practice of henotheism continued through the divided monarchy (see Chronicles). Their failure demonstrates the necessity for Jews to maintain worship in the one true God.

What?  So... the downfall of a henotheistic belief proves a monotheist belief?  Have you ever studied logic?  I ask because this is not logic.  It's that other thing.

Quote:
4) The survival of the Jewish people:

So... that also means that the Cherokee gods are real.  Also, the Eskimo-Aleuts.  Also, the Northern Athabaskans.  Also, the Yok-Utian, Pacific Coast Athabaskans, Coast Miwoks, Yuroks, and Palaihnihans.  All of their tribes were nearly exterminated during the colonization of North America, and now each of them has surviving descendants.  Oh yes, and their history is much, much older than yours.

Quote:
5) Jewish Culture:

This is ridiculous.  Practice your beliefs if you want, but don't try to give them logical validity by this nonsense argument.

Quote:
Finally, I would really appreciate it if no one used the divine name on this thread (YHWH). Don't spell it out please.

Yahweh.

It's my right to print whatever I want because America does not tolerate religious suppression of free speech.  Take your censorship somewhere else.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit wrote:How do you

Hambydammit wrote:

How do you know they're god's commands and not just somebody's idea of what a made up deity wanted?

Because these commandments have survived and changed for over 3,000 years. Their ability to remain significant for the modern Jew suggest a divine fingerprint for me.

Hambydammit wrote:

So, you're saying that the fact that ancient texts proved unwieldy, and then people wrote new texts that happened to be more applicable to their own time, that this proves that God... um.... what?  I really don't see how this has anything to do with anything except people writing about their own time.

What?  So... the downfall of a henotheistic belief proves a monotheist belief?  Have you ever studied logic?  I ask because this is not logic.  It's that other thing.

I think that points 2-3 demonstrate progressive revelation. They demonstrate Hashem working with humanity to find Truth. Therefore, the rejection of henotheism and the codification of the Mishnah represent God's continued relationship with His people.

Hambydammit wrote:

So... that also means that the Cherokee gods are real.  Also, the Eskimo-Aleuts.  Also, the Northern Athabaskans.  Also, the Yok-Utian, Pacific Coast Athabaskans, Coast Miwoks, Yuroks, and Palaihnihans.  All of their tribes were nearly exterminated during the colonization of North America, and now each of them has surviving descendants.  Oh yes, and their history is much, much older than yours.

This persecution is horrendous as well. But don't insult the persecution of the Jewish people Hamby. Six million of us died in the Holocaust alone. Elie Wiesel lived through the Shoah, and he still maintains belief in God. This is because we will not abandon the faith that our ancestors were killed for.

Hambydammit wrote:

This is ridiculous.  Practice your beliefs if you want, but don't try to give them logical validity by this nonsense argument.

I'm not trying to give them logical validity in point 5. I'm trying to say that Jewish practice is a part of who I am. Even if God didn't exist, I would still try and keep to these practices as a part of my family's heritage.

Finally Hamby, I will make every effort on this forum to respect your beliefs. All I asked was that you didn't spell out the divine name (YHWH). Please respect that request.

Also, for prozac. I've checked out some threads by this anonymouse fellow. Does anonymouse hack into the forums? I've heard all of that kind of nonsense before, and I'm not going to debate an anti-Semite like that.

Baruch atah Adonai ki tov


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Hambydammit wrote:What?

Hambydammit wrote:

What?  So... the downfall of a henotheistic belief proves a monotheist belief?  Have you ever studied logic?  I ask because this is not logic.  It's that other thing.

Ha! That's brilliant. I'll have to remember that one.

Quote:

Many Jews today don't believe in God

I suppose I would fall into this category.

Quote:

We died for our beliefs,

Huh? This makes no sense at all. We didn't die "for" anything in the Holocaust. We died because a meglomaniacal lunatic exploiting centuries of European anti-semitism had at his command one of the largest and most terrifying war machines in all history and managed to instill into a whole nation the belief in  the preposterous nonsense of a "world Jewish conspiracy" being opposed by some antiparallel Aryan quest. Nazi ideology was rooted in ideas of inferior and superior races. With the exception of Jehovah's witnesses and political dissidents, the Nazis persecuted groups of their dislike on the basis of ethnicity (Jews, Slavs, gypsies, etc.). There were surely many Jews who did not believe in God during those years, and they were murdered in just as cold blood as their devout counterparts. The Holocaust was executed on the basis of the ethnicity of the people being persecuted, not their beliefs.

Quote:

However, even if I didn't believe in God, I would still hold to the religious traditions of Judaism

Huh? Again, I don't follow. This thread was supposed to be a justification for your beliefs. Now you are trying to justify your traditions even if you didn't hold those beliefs! Yet you present this under a header as if it was an argument for a belief! The title of this thread was justification of my religious beliefs. It's like Hamby said. This isn't logic. It's that other thing, you know, fallacy. In this case it is a bait-and-switch.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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 Quote:Finally Hamby, I

 

Quote:
Finally Hamby, I will make every effort on this forum to respect your beliefs. All I asked was that you didn't spell out the divine name (YHWH). Please respect that request.

Yahweh.

Your request is unreasonable.  If you're uncomfortable, go to another forum.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Dam I had a whole thing


Dam I had a whole thing written out but was beaten to the punch 

I'm sorry but i don't see any proof here. Maybe I would if I believed in the jewish god but I don't.  But what I did get was god/Hashem continually updates his hand book? Couldn't an all powerfull god get in right the first time? About the monarchy basically believing in many gods with one supreme god failed. Why does thier failure  not mean that thier god is wrong? It could mean anything, they weren't a very good at ruling? And finally about persicution, It is unsuprisingly hard to erase an entire people off the face of the planet. That is all it proves. No problem with not denying your heritage and people, It is important to know who you are. But you need somthing to support your god. Some of those things jews do because of religous belief seem quite silly tbh. Why would you do it if you didn't believe in god?

Just a quick question why don't you want us us saying the 'Y' word? It means nothing to us non jews. Is it offensive to say the name of your god?

 
 

 

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Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
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jews

i love you guys. You can't imagin how much I hate hitler.  Nuke Iran. 


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I thought the YWH was the

I thought the YWH was the Hebrew word for God like Allah is the Arabic word for God.

 

 

 


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deludedgod wrote:Huh? This

deludedgod wrote:

Huh? This makes no sense at all. We didn't die "for" anything in the Holocaust. We died because a meglomaniacal lunatic exploiting centuries of European anti-semitism had at his command one of the largest and most terrifying war machines in all history and managed to instill into a whole nation the belief in  the preposterous nonsense of a "world Jewish conspiracy" being opposed by some antiparallel Aryan quest. Nazi ideology was rooted in ideas of inferior and superior races. With the exception of Jehovah's witnesses and political dissidents, the Nazis persecuted groups of their dislike on the basis of ethnicity (Jews, Slavs, gypsies, etc.). There were surely many Jews who did not believe in God during those years, and they were murdered in just as cold blood as their devout counterparts. The Holocaust was executed on the basis of the ethnicity of the people being persecuted, not their beliefs.

I'm well aware of the history of the Holocaust and why Jews were killed. I believe I stated in my original post that religious hatred turned into ethnic hatred of Jews that culminated in the Holocaust.

When I wrote that Jews died for their faith, I was referring to Christian pogroms. Essentially the convert or die kind of genocide. I'm sure you've studied that too.

 

deludedgod wrote:

Huh? Again, I don't follow. This thread was supposed to be a justification for your beliefs. Now you are trying to justify your traditions even if you didn't hold those beliefs! Yet you present this under a header as if it was an argument for a belief! It's like Hamby said. This isn't logic. It's that other thing, you know, fallacy. In this case it is a bait-and-switch.

That is true. The last point essentially justified being Jewish culturally. I didn't intend the point to prove the existence of God.

 

Also Hamby, I really didn't expect my request to be such an issue. It's a simple request and I don't think I'm asking too much of you to respect it. I see that you're one of the leaders on this forum and with the RRS. Since you represent RRS leadership, that makes me worried that other RRS leaders won't respect my request either. If you keep writing the name of God, I'll have to leave the forum. And I really don't want to do that. Besides, if I leave, what other religious Jews will you have left to debate with on these forums? Don't you want a non-Christian religious perspective every now and then?

 

Baruch atah Adonai ki tov


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What's wrong with saying

What's wrong with saying God's name? How do you know it if you're not suppose to say it or write it?

 

 

 

My God doesn't have a name, but you can call him Al

 

 

 


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Cpt.

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

What's wrong with saying God's name? How do you know it if you're not suppose to say it or write it?

 

 

 

My God doesn't have a name, but you can call him Al

 

 

 

      My lady you don't seem to understand Hassidic Jewish traditions (YHWH) stands for the "Sacred" name of God, or Adonai, or Shemsham, it is the sacred name that devout Jews do not say aloud. Personally I can use other names when I am posting to The Hammer.

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Jeffrick wrote:Cpt_pineapple

Jeffrick wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

What's wrong with saying God's name? How do you know it if you're not suppose to say it or write it?

 

 

 

My God doesn't have a name, but you can call him Al

 

 

      My lady you don't seem to understand Hassidic Jewish traditions (YHWH) stands for the "Sacred" name of God, or Adonai, or Shemsham, it is the sacred name that devout Jews do not say aloud. Personally I can use other names when I am posting to The Hammer.

But that doesn't explain why we can't say it or write it. It explains why they can't.

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Jeffrick wrote:      My

Jeffrick wrote:

      My lady you don't seem to understand Hassidic Jewish traditions (YHWH) stands for the "Sacred" name of God, or Adonai, or Shemsham, it is the sacred name that devout Jews do not say aloud. Personally I can use other names when I am posting to The Hammer.

 

 

But Hamby didn't say it out loud, he typed it.

 

 

 


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 Quote:Also Hamby, I really

 

Quote:
Also Hamby, I really didn't expect my request to be such an issue. It's a simple request and I don't think I'm asking too much of you to respect it. I see that you're one of the leaders on this forum and with the RRS. Since you represent RRS leadership, that makes me worried that other RRS leaders won't respect my request either. If you keep writing the name of God, I'll have to leave the forum. And I really don't want to do that. Besides, if I leave, what other religious Jews will you have left to debate with on these forums? Don't you want a non-Christian religious perspective every now and then?

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

Yahweh

 

 

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 Bah! don't scare him off I

 Bah! don't scare him off I want to know why we can't type it.


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Wow Hamby, you are asshole. 

Wow Hamby, you are an asshole.

 

 


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Tapey wrote: Bah! don't

Tapey wrote:

 Bah! don't scare him off I want to know why we can't type it.

 

This

 

 


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Christos wrote:Wow Hamby,

Christos wrote:

Wow Hamby, you are an asshole.

 

 

meh, everyone has a little asshole in them


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 Quote:Wow Hamby, you are

 

Quote:
Wow Hamby, you are an asshole.

One of my biggest pet peeves, and one of the biggest pet peeves of all the core members of RRS is the demand by various religious groups that their particular religious beliefs be imposed on others.  This is an atheist website, and we do not respect, condone, or otherwise give sanctuary to irrational religious demands.  It is rude to come here and tell us that we have to play by any other rules just because it offends someone's delicate sensibilities.  Here, we talk about religion openly and plainly, and that's it.

If someone cannot stand to see a word in print -- any word at all -- they do not need to be here.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Cpt_pineapple wrote:What's

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

What's wrong with saying God's name?

The Jews have a prohibition against saying or writing the names of god. Have you ever seen a Jew writing something and writing "G-d" rather than "God?" It is because they don't want to write out his name. They want to write about god, but they don't want to use any of his names, so they use the acronym YHWH ("I am what I am" or possibly "I am that I am&quotEye-wink instead.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Hambydammit wrote:  It is

Hambydammit wrote:

  It is rude to come here and tell us that we have to play by any other rules just because it offends someone's delicate sensibilities.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Hambydammit wrote: One of

Hambydammit wrote:

 

One of my biggest pet peeves, and one of the biggest pet peeves of all the core members of RRS is the demand by various religious groups that their particular religious beliefs be imposed on others.  This is an atheist website, and we do not respect, condone, or otherwise give sanctuary to irrational religious demands.  It is rude to come here and tell us that we have to play by any other rules just because it offends someone's delicate sensibilities.  Here, we talk about religion openly and plainly, and that's it.

 

(emphasis added)

Thank you for holding to this. 

 

 

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The Hammer wrote:It's a

The Hammer wrote:

It's a simple request and I don't think I'm asking too much of you to respect it.

You are asking for censorship. That is asking too much. Like most censors you frame your demand in terms of respect and decency. It sounds a lot nicer that way. It is still a call for censorship though, and I'm afraid I won't support that. I can only hope that Hammby writes down YHWH or YWH or Yahweh however he likes.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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The Hammer wrote:1) The

The Hammer wrote:
1) The Tanakh: The Tanakh encompasses all of God's commands for daily life (ie Kosher laws, Sabbath restirctions or circumcision practices). It also contains the story of the Jewish people from the golden age of the monarchy, through the exile, through Greek and Roman conquests. The Tanakh contains depths of knowledge about human life in relationship with Hashem.


You've offered many assertions founded on unmentioned presuppositions. The Tanakh contains many commands, claims about Hashem, and claims about the human relationship with Hashem, but not necessarily truthful claims or divine commands. To attribute them to God and to proclaim their veracity while attempting to justify such beliefs is to argue in circles by begging the question. Thus far, you have not justified your religious beliefs.

The Hammer wrote:
2) The Mishnah and the Talmuds: At times, the Tanakh is archaic and difficult to understand. Commandments that were applicable 3000 years ago no longer have practical significance today. The Mishnah represents Hashem's continued revealtion to the Jewish people through oral tradition. The Talmud updates the Torah to be more applicable to daily life in accordance with God's progressive revelation.


You have told me what you believe, but you have not justified your religious beliefs.

The Hammer wrote:
3) Failure of the Jewish monarchy: King Solomon built the incredible Temple in Jerusalem. However, Solomon was also essentially a henotheist. This practice of henotheism continued through the divided monarchy (see Chronicles). Their failure demonstrates the necessity for Jews to maintain worship in the one true God.


The failure of henotheism justifies monotheism to the same extent that it justifies deism, polytheism, pantheism, panentheism, animism, animatism, ancestor worship, and atheism. In other words, it does not offer justification for any position. The failure of henotheism in that time period does not even justify non-henotheism in this time period. Your conclusion does not follow from your premises. Thus far, you have not justified your religious beliefs.

The Hammer wrote:
4) The survival of the Jewish people: My people faced constant persecution from the exile until the modern day (like the Holocaust denying bishops or the Israeli tennis player barred from Dubai). We faced Christian pogroms under the Roman Empire, Medieval kingdoms, and (to a lesser extent) Muslim kingdoms. We were falsely accused by Christians of host desecration, and the sacrifice of Christian children. All we wanted as a Diaspora people was tolerance. As emancipation began, with the enlightenment, we were hated no just for our religion, but for simply being Jews ethnically. Obviously, the Holocaust was the culmination of more then 2000 years of hatred, bigotry and ignorance. If you don't read anything else above, read this: I am a Jew because I cannot deny my heritage, my people and my God. We died for our beliefs, and we suffering because of our ethnicity. I am furious with God for allowing the Shoah. But the Jewish faith and tradition will not end with me.


The present and historical animosity against people of Jewish ethnicity does not justify your religious beliefs.

The Hammer wrote:
5) Jewish Culture: Many Jews today don't believe in God. The majority of Israelis are non-religious. However, even if I didn't believe in God, I would still hold to the religious traditions of Judaism. Jewish practices such as holidays, the Sabbath and Kosher laws are an important part of who I am and where I came from.


You have told me some of the things you value, but you have not justified your religious beliefs.

The Hammer wrote:
Finally, I would really appreciate it if no one used the divine name on this thread (YHWH). Don't spell it out please.


Most of the members here do not subscribe to your religious beliefs and have no obligation, either to you or to your religion, to follow its dictates, so please refrain from telling others, or asking others, to participate on these forums only in ways you consider acceptable. If their freedom of speech bothers you so intensely, you should find another website on which to participate because the members here, as well as the moderators I'm sure, value our liberty more than your participation. I apologize if that sounds harsh, as that is not my intention, but truths sometimes are harsh, no matter how delicately one tries to state them.

The Hammer wrote:
Because these commandments have survived and changed for over 3,000 years. Their ability to remain significant for the modern Jew suggest a divine fingerprint for me.


They suggest that humans of different time periods often have different thoughts. You have not justified your belief that they signify a divine fingerprint.

The Hammer wrote:
I think that points 2-3 demonstrate progressive revelation. They demonstrate Hashem working with humanity to find Truth. Therefore, the rejection of henotheism and the codification of the Mishnah represent God's continued relationship with His people.


You have not justified thinking that Hashem exists at all, let alone that revelations of any sort have occurred.

The Hammer wrote:
This persecution is horrendous as well. But don't insult the persecution of the Jewish people Hamby. Six million of us died in the Holocaust alone. Elie Wiesel lived through the Shoah, and he still maintains belief in God. This is because we will not abandon the faith that our ancestors were killed for.


Hambydammit said nothing negative about the Jewish people. He demonstrated that your conclusion did not follow from your premises—that you have not justified your religious beliefs.

The Hammer wrote:
I'm not trying to give them logical validity in point 5. I'm trying to say that Jewish practice is a part of who I am. Even if God didn't exist, I would still try and keep to these practices as a part of my family's heritage.


I do not consider that a valid reason to include Jewish practice into your self-identity. If I followed the same reasoning, I would live as a polytheistic Celt, or perhaps a Christian of the very tradition that led to the persecution of your people. (I descend from Irish and Europeans.) If everyone followed the same reasoning, humanity would never advance. In this regional sense, the continuation of tradition exemplifies memetic stagnation, which does not benefit anyone. Consider the present and the past from a nonregional perspective, without dividing people with the use of the imaginary borders we draw on our maps, and consider this larger, grander heritage that lies before you, which consists of climbing ever higher toward the top of the ladder of intellect, of stepping from one rung to another, of moving from one culture to another or one tradition to another, to reach the apex, where we shall attain many of the great truths of the universe. I consider that heritage much more worthy of emulation.

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Quote:2) The Mishnah and the

Quote:
2) The Mishnah and the Talmuds: At times, the Tanakh is archaic and difficult to understand. Commandments that were applicable 3000 years ago no longer have practical significance today. The Mishnah represents Hashem's continued revealtion to the Jewish people through oral tradition. The Talmud updates the Torah to be more applicable to daily life in accordance with God's progressive revelation.

Dungeons & Dragons hit edition 4.0 last year. There's been the original TSR D&D, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, D&D 2.0, D&D 3.5, and - finally - D&D 4.0.

 

By the logic of the OP, each successive edition should somehow make it more and more likely that the fantasy lore in these books is real.

Quote:
Finally, I would really appreciate it if no one used the divine name on this thread (YHWH). Don't spell it out please.

Yahweh! Yahweh! YAHWEH!!!

 

Get a grip, dude. Yahweh is just a word (Just like, 'Yahweh is a fucking pussy' is just a sentence). If it were anything more, your magical deity could no doubt stand-up for himself on the matter.

This does make me wonder, though: what do you do when someone says Yahweh in your proximity out in the real world? Start picking-up stones, just like in the good 'ol days?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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Thank You

You just saved me another book on Judaism.

I'm an atheist and to say it clearly:

I do not care about personal and private  religion.
What I do care about is public
and proselytizing religion.

The great thing about atheism is that there are many books on it but none if those books is norminative. So; other then Christians or Muslims Atheists do not have some kind of holy book that tells them to go out and rid the people of their imaginary friends.

But since you started explaining why you are happy to be a Jew, let me explain why I'm not a Jew. (Note: If I would be overwhelmingly enthusiatic about Judaism I would join whatever some orthodox Jews would say about that)

  • If I would feel a need for a set of petty rules to make make my life unneccesarily complicated (kosher food, how to clean second hand crockery that was used by infidels before, when to light fires and when not, etc ...) I would make them up myself.
  • If chauvinism is the believe that the own group is superior, then the belief that the own ethnicity is holy is an epitome of ethno-chauvinism.
  • If you go about reinterpreting your holy texts over and over again against the modern zeitgeist, you could just as well read tea leaves against the modern zeitgeist to get your ideas.
    So I prefer to make up my ethical conclusion directly from what I see, observe and learn. There is really no need to go back to texts from the bronze age. (As long as I wouldn't want to justify patriachy)
     

best wishes

 

Mike

 

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 By the way, let me give

 By the way, let me give you a simple lesson on persecution.

1. Killing people for having opposing beliefs:  Persecuting.

2. Legislating your own religion:  Persecuting

3. Censoring those who speak ill of you:  Persecuting.

4. Making discrimination against a group legal:  Persecuting.

 

Now, things that are not persecuting:

1. Speaking ill of imaginary beings, as in "Yahweh, if he existed, would be an evil tyrant who would make Hitler look like an ok guy."

2. Allowing free speech.

3. Prohibiting any of the above mentioned forms of persecution.

4. Telling you that you can take your religious nonsense and find a forum that cares.

 

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Quote:Remember, my people

Quote:
Remember, my people wrote these books.

No, those people who wrote those books lived in ancient times, so unless you have a gentetic DNA line to trace yourself back to the writers, all you are saying is that you are a fan of and participate in the practice of the Jewish faith.

I am not trying to be mean. But, that would be like me saying "atheists are my people". No, they are not. I am not related to all other atheists nor do I owe anyone outside my immediate family anything. I do have lots in common with other atheists, but I am not related to them.

I might add, that even black atheist Reginald Finley, the Infidel Guy, has never liked it when blacks refer to his color as "my people" or "brother". Sure he has knowledge of discrimination against him not only for being black, but being an atheist as well.

My point is that we all have an afinity to like minded people, but that doesn't mean because we think overlap in our agreements, that somehow we owe that label something. I am not applying that to you personally, but to humanity in general.

When you use "group thinking" on that level, it can become a pattern where you default to supporting that group, even if in reality, it might not be beneficial to do so.

Examples

"My atheist people"

"My German people"

"My Catholic people"

"My black people"

"My Muslim people"

I think a better way of using language is not to treat people you don't personally know or have never met, like family, but rather treat them as individuals you find agreement with sometimes.

 

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To support Brian37

It is really ludicrous to claim that those ancient Hebrews are your people. Did you ever care for geneology? If you do this you will find that the most recent common ancestor of all human beings living today just lived about a thousand years ago.

Those Jews who wrote those books are just as much my ancestors as they are yours.

 

Link to the scientific study

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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

 

Quote:
Finally Hamby, I will make every effort on this forum to respect your beliefs. All I asked was that you didn't spell out the divine name (YHWH). Please respect that request.

Yahweh.

Your request is unreasonable.  If you're uncomfortable, go to another forum.

 

 

It always amazes me that people try to protect a claimed all powerfull god with human taboos. Does Yahwey have a glass jaw?

Now before anyone goes off half corked, we atheist pose the same question to ANYONE of any religion. We would advise any theist comming here that it is not out of hate that we do this, but because the logic you use in setting up these insecure taboos make no sense to us.

THIS APPLIES TO ANYONE OF ANY RELIGION

Example:

Deity clamaint,(incert label here) "I don't want you to pick on my god".

Atheist, "Are you saying he/she/it, cant fight their own battles?"

AGAIN, we don't want any theist taking it personally, but taboos set up by any theist seems to contradict their claim that their god is all powefull.

Does this Jew think it is ok for a Muslim to threaten a cartoonist with death because someone picked on Muhammed?

And the funny thing is, we are not picking on you, we are pointing out the flaw in your logic of setting up taboos. You are not the only religion or deity believer who attempts to do this.

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GermanMike wrote:It is

GermanMike wrote:

It is really ludicrous to claim that those ancient Hebrews are your people. Did you ever care for geneology? If you do this you will find that the most recent common ancestor of all human beings living today just lived about a thousand years ago.

Those Jews who wrote those books are just as much my ancestors as they are yours.

 

Link to the scientific study

That is entirely wrong. The most recent common ancestor of all humans was a lot further back than 1000 years. Even the article you linked to states that the most recent common ancestors lived a few thousand years ago. Didn't the earliest ancestors of native americans enter north america 20000 years ago? That would put the most recent common ancestors of humans at least older than 20,000 years ago.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Hambydammit wrote: By the

Hambydammit wrote:

 By the way, let me give you a simple lesson on persecution

No Hamby, allow me to give you a lesson on persecution. Relatives from both sides of my family were killed in Auschwitz. Of course I know what persecution is, I'm a Jew. Our whole history is marked by persecution. I can't believe you would say something so ignorant and anti-Semitic.

With that Hamby, and everyone else on these forums, I'll get going. Thank you all very much for your time, and I wish you all the best of life in every way. Shalom!

Baruch atah Adonai ki tov


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I'll say to you what I have

I'll say to you what I have said to countless Christians and even some Muslims.

Saying, "Respect my god"

I get this image of a migdit standing, spread eagle, in front of the Terminator shouting, "Don't hit him, you might hurt him".

If I can't hurt your god, then what are you worried about?

If anyone misses the point of this board, it is for atheists, and theists who are willing to debate. We do have some long time theists, whom we havent swade, but at a minimum, do not see our blasphemy as a threat, because they do see that we are merely challenging their claims.

So do not come here thinking that taboos or platitudes or warm fuzzies will win us over. EVIDENCE is what we are intrested in.

We do want you here, we welcome all theists of any label, but do not expect us to placate your emotions or insecurities. Be brave and debate us and do not take our blasphemy as hate.

If you want an idea where I am comming from, talk to Captian Pinnaple or Caposka(sp). They are deist/theist respectively and have been around a long time, and do not take us personally.

If you take us personally, rather than look at it as a chess game(all be it blunt for some, like me) you wont last long.

 

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Quote:you will find that the

Quote:

you will find that the most recent common ancestor of all human beings living today just lived about a thousand years ago.

That's um...well...

That's completely wrong.

And, as was pointed out, not supported by your link. During the migration out of Africa, distinct trails of human movement developed until the continental ice bridge disappeared. As a consequence, the group of humans on the North American landmass, and that on the Eurasian landmass, would not meet up again until the arrival of the Vikings and then the conquistadors at the Americas. It's not possible that the last ancestor of all mankind lived 1,000 years ago. 1,000 years ago there were already established trade routes, full scale civilizations, and hundreds of millions of people.

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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Him and A Nony Mouse are

Him and A Nony Mouse are going to get alone just fine.

 

 

 

 


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Quote:I can't believe you

Quote:

I can't believe you would say something so ignorant and anti-Semitic.

I fail to see how Hamby was being anti-Semitic by pointing out that members of the forum cannot force other members to obey requests that do not constitute part of the forum rules. Using the word "Yahweh" is not an example of persecution. This was precisely the point he was trying to get across. I'm utterly at a loss as to how this constitutes anti-Semitism.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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The Hammer wrote:Hambydammit

The Hammer wrote:

Hambydammit wrote:

 By the way, let me give you a simple lesson on persecution

No Hamby, allow me to give you a lesson on persecution. Relatives from both sides of my family were killed in Auschwitz. Of course I know what persecution is, I'm a Jew. Our whole history is marked by persecution. I can't believe you would say something so ignorant and anti-Semitic.

With that Hamby, and everyone else on these forums, I'll get going. Thank you all very much for your time, and I wish you all the best of life in every way. Shalom!

There is not one atheist here that condones what Hitler did. But what does that have to do with modern western socieity? Native Americans were pushed off their land, Andrew Jackson litterally killed 10,000 native Americans in a death march. Would you suggest we give them them our nation?

Yes, the Nazis were bad and what happend to the Jews of Germany was horible. But is suffering a numbers game? Or is it something all of humanity can relate to at some point in their history, or in their personal lives?

We cant forget the past, that part is true, nor should we, but if you always want to be a victim, you will always be a victim. I'd prefure to think of the German Jews as survivors, not victims.

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 I'm really starting to

 I'm really starting to think alot of religous people like to think they are being persicuted for there beliefs. Some how makes them feel more noble in beliveing what they do?

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
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No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


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But, if you really want to

But, if you really want to compair "suffering", I'd think you're doing fine if we spell out your god's name, compaired to the Jews that were gassed and burned alive.

We are just debating you and pointing out your flawed logic, some of us more bluntly than others. But, get it out of your mind, and we have told Christians this too, we have no intrest in government force of the end of religion. We prefure to take the diologe route. But part of maturity is realizing that you wont always like what you hear.

I don't have a right as an atheist from being free from being offended, but neither do you, or anyone else. So do yourself a favor, get over it, and get on with debating us.

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 Quote:Using the word

 

Quote:
Using the word "Yahweh" is not an example of persecution. This was precisely the point he was trying to get across. I'm utterly at a loss as to how this constitutes anti-Semitism.

There are very few things I hate more than people who use accusations of bigotry to impose bigotry.

I really fucking hate that.

Don't like something somebody says?  Just toss out the word racist or antisemite or bigot.  To the OP, grow some balls and either find logical justification for your beliefs or stop trying to impose your narrow minded, ethnocentric bullshit on the rest of us who prefer to see everyone as equals.

Oh, and from one equal to another, stuff your self righteous shit back up into your ass.  We don't want it here, you prick.

 

(How's that for being an asshole?)

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Quote:With that Hamby, and

Quote:

With that Hamby, and everyone else on these forums, I'll get going.

I don't get what this was all about. He comes here, doesn't try to justify his beliefs, tries to censor our speech, plays the victim, accuses people of anti-semitism because they disagree with him and then leaves.

At least he came in and left before anonymouse could respond. I'd hate to think what that would be like.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
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deludedgod wrote:Quote:I

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

I can't believe you would say something so ignorant and anti-Semitic.

I fail to see how Hamby was being anti-Semitic by pointing out that members of the forum cannot force other members to obey requests that do not constitute part of the forum rules. Using the word "Yahweh" is not an example of persecution. This was precisely the point he was trying to get across. I'm utterly at a loss as to how this constitutes anti-Semitism.

I can't speak for The Hammer, but I think that he didn't want to be lectured about what persecution is. It seems as though he is well aware of what persecution is.

Hey Hammer, if you read this come back. We need more theists around here.

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 Quote:It seems as though

 

Quote:
It seems as though he is well aware of what persecution is.

If he thinks having the name of his god spelled out is persecution, he clearly does not know.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Quote:I can't speak for The

Quote:

I can't speak for The Hammer, but I think that he didn't want to be lectured about what persecution is. It seems as though he is well aware of what persecution is.

This does not change the fact that it was completely ridiculous for him to call Hamby "anti-Semitic" on the grounds that he had pointed out that it was not acceptable for him to impose particular special requests on everyone here.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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Hambydammit wrote: (How's

Hambydammit wrote:

 

(How's that for being an asshole?)

 

10 out of 10 on the asshole scale


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I forgot to put the native

I forgot to put the native Americans into my equation. I should really have a far more distance most recent common ancestor with them. Since they were very locally displaced from my possible ancestors.

On the other hand I'm still right when I say that those Jews who wrote those ancient texts are statistically almost certainly also my ancestors because they live on Eurasia. It would really need to be a statistical oddity if I in Europe wouldn't be related to almost anyone who live in the european and bordering areas about 2000 or 3000 years ago.

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deludedgod wrote:Quote:I

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

I can't believe you would say something so ignorant and anti-Semitic.

I fail to see how Hamby was being anti-Semitic by pointing out that members of the forum cannot force other members to obey requests that do not constitute part of the forum rules. Using the word "Yahweh" is not an example of persecution. This was precisely the point he was trying to get across. I'm utterly at a loss as to how this constitutes anti-Semitism.

Hambi is far from anti semetic. He is against, like I am, taboos. If I can laugh at fellow atheist Richard Dawkins butt fucking Mrs Garrison on South Park, I am certainly sure, that this person can handle a mere refurence to the absurdity of "dont say his name".

Seriously

Would this same person always, even outside our presence, blindly obey us if we requested we say "RD" instead of "Richard Dawkins" "Don't say his name".

The issue is not that we are making fun of Jews, or anyone else for that matter, but taboos are not only a sign of insecurity, but how fascism in the form of state worship, or the fascism of theocracy, starts.

Hitler and Iran and Saudi Arabia and North Korea are all fascist states and all have taboo laws forbiding the citizens from speaking out against a majority party or majority religion.

It is hardly anti Semetic to say to a Jew "Your use of logic is flawed. What harm is there in reality, other than you don't want your tradition challenged, what harm is there in seeing your god's name spelled out?"

 

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Christos wrote:Hambydammit

Christos wrote:

Hambydammit wrote:

 

(How's that for being an asshole?)

 

10 out of 10 on the asshole scale

closer to 10 out of 10 on the pissed off scale

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Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
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deludedgod wrote:This does

deludedgod wrote:

This does not change the fact that it was completely ridiculous for him to call Hamby "anti-Semitic" on the grounds that he had pointed out that it was not acceptable for him to impose particular special requests on everyone here.

I don't disagree that Hammer can't impose those kinds of restrictions. I'm just saying, the Hammer seems pretty sensetive about the discrimination against Jews. I think he knows what persecution is fairly well. I mean relatives at Auschwitz, holy shit. Hamby went a little far with that one.

That said, this is probably the most times the word Yahweh has been used in an RRS thread.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

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The Hammer wrote: Finally,

The Hammer wrote:

 

Finally, I would really appreciate it if no one used the divine name on this thread (YHWH). Don't spell it out please.

I would really appreciate it if no one asked me to follow the protocols of their religion, of which i am not a member. Especially when those protocols ask that i assign a sacred value to that which is a word and nothing more. yahweh is no better or worse than any other word that could utter, write or type, and i won't be told that i'm restricted from the use of it or any other word.

like the quote says: We must never take these words too seriously. Words are very important, but when take them too seriously we destroy everything.

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