The Many Things God Hasn't Done

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The Many Things God Hasn't Done

No doubt there's some important stuff I'll have missed; feel free to add to the list as you see fit:

 

God did not create the universe

Our universe was formed via the expansion of a singularity and subsequent formation of structures by hydrogen atoms through gravitational attraction. A magical deity adds nothing to the known explanation.

 

God did not create the solar system or the Earth

Our sun was formed by the particle clouds left behind from previous stars, and our planet (as well as every other planet in the solar system) formed from an accretion disk surrounding our sun.

 

God did not create life on Earth

Life on Earth was formed through a chemical evolutionary process known as 'abiogenesis' (not to be confused with modern evolutionary science, dealing with the propagation of alleles through a population).

 

God did not create homo sapiens

Homo sapiens evolved along the primate branch of the genetic tree. We are simply the 'latest model' of great apes.

 

God did not give us 'souls' or 'free will'

Human beings are conscious and self-aware via their brains. An extra, magical source for our intelligence adds nothing to the known explanation.

 

God has yet to answer a prayer

Under controlled conditions, when a request is made via prayer for something unambiguous, nothing ever happens.

 

God did not provide us with accurate insight into the mechanics the universe he supposedly was somehow involved in erecting

None of the mythological texts supposedly divined into existence by God reflect reality.

 

God did not talk to you last night

You can kid yourself and your choir all you like. We both know it didn't happen.

 

God did not send his Holy Spirit through you

See above.

 

God did not invent morality

Morality was a trait favored by natural selection, as it encourages population growth & stability.

 

 

So then:

What the Hell did God do that is apparently so obvious to you? All of the things traditionally attributed to God are mis-attributions; it's just outright wrong to say that magic was somehow necessary to make the universe, Earth, people, etc. We also both know that you're being dishonest when you claim that a prayer was magically answered or that God manifested for you.

So: where does God come into it?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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You mentioned my sig in an

You mentioned my sig in an another topic, but I think it bears repeating.

 

God didn't produce a ready-made world. The Creator has done something cleverer than this, making a world able to make itself. ~John Polkinghorne

 

 

 

 

 

 


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That's absurd too,

That's absurd too, Alison.

What does a magical deity add to the known natural explanation for the origins of our universe?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Quote:God didn't produce a

Quote:

God didn't produce a ready-made world. The Creator has done something cleverer than this, making a world able to make itself. ~John Polkinghorne

That sounds rather redundant.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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 Quote:That's absurd too,

 

Quote:
That's absurd too, Alison.

What does a magical deity add to the known natural explanation for the origins of our universe?

Hambydammit gets a bowl of popcorn and a coke.  This should be good.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Kevin R Brown wrote:No doubt

Kevin R Brown wrote:

No doubt there's some important stuff I'll have missed; feel free to add to the list as you see fit:

 

God did not create the universe

Our universe was formed via the expansion of of a singularity and subsequent formation of structures by hydrogen atoms through gravitational attraction. A magical deity adds nothing to the known explanation.

 

God did not create the solar system or the Earth

Our sun was formed by the particle clouds left behind from previous stars, and our planet (as well as every other planet in the solar system) formed from an accretion disk surrounding our sun.

 

God did not create life on Earth

Life on Earth was formed through a chemical evolutionary process known as 'abiogenesis' (not to be confused with modern evolutionary science, dealing with the propagation of alleles through a population).

 

God did not create homo sapiens

Homo sapiens evolved along the primate branch of the genetic tree. We are simply the 'latest model' of great apes.

 

God did not give us 'souls' or 'free will'

Human beings are conscious and self-aware via their brains. An extra, magical source for our intelligence adds nothing to the known explanation.

 

God has yet to answer a prayer

Under controlled conditions, when a request is made via prayer for something unambiguous, nothing ever happens.

 

God did not provide us with accurate insight into the machanics the universe he supposedly was somehow involved in erecting

None of the mythological texts supposedly divined into existence by God reflect reality.

 

God did not talk to you last night

You can kid yourself and your choir all you like. We both know it didn't happen.

 

God did not send his Holy Spirit through you

See above.

 

God did not invent morality

Morality was a trait favored by natural selection, as it encourages population growth & stability.

 

 

So then:

What the Hell did God do that is apparently so obvious to you? All of the things traditionally attributed to God are mis-attributations; it's just outright wrong to say that magic was somehow necessary to make the universe, Earth, people, etc. We also both know that you're being dishonest when you claim that a prayer was magically answered or that God manifested for you.

So: where does God come into it?

What kind of killjoy are you? I know that I exist. I also know that Fran Drescher exists and is hot. If there is no magical lawgiver tells me that I cant squease one off over her hot body, then how am I going to get her to give me a blowjob?

Are you trying to tell me that prayer doesn't work? FUCK!

 

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"God didn't do that, you

"God didn't do that, you did. You're a fuckin' narcotics agent, I knew it!"

God did not write Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

"So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence." - Bertrand Russell

Stewie: Yay and God said to Abraham, "you will kill your son, Issak", and Abraham said, I can't hear you, you'll have to speak into the microphone." "Oh I'm sorry, Is this better? Check, check, check... Jerry, pull the high end out, I'm still getting some hiss back here."


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:You

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

You mentioned my sig in an another topic, but I think it bears repeating.

 

God didn't produce a ready-made world. The Creator has done something cleverer than this, making a world able to make itself. ~John Polkinghorne

I find it rather odd that God would create this kind of world, then notice that we are doing a LOT of things that he doesn't approve of, and rather than fix the problem, simply condemn everyone who doesn't do something right to hell. If god had actually created the world to make itself into its own being, he would be much mroe patient with us and wouldn't condemn us for such things as sex and pride.

I don't have the time to cater to your religious beliefs. Its much less time consuming to simply mock them, and, on occasion, give a reasonable explanation as to why I do so. But that's if I'm in a good mood.


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Kevin R Brown wrote:That's

Kevin R Brown wrote:

That's absurd too, Alison.

What does a magical deity add to the known natural explanation for the origins of our universe?


 

For one thing, I don't believe despite my understanding science, I believe because of my understanding of science.

 

 

Second it makes me feel that something is behind it all through the complexity and harmony of nature.

 

Third as to which mechanism the Deity adds to explanations, I don't think there are any really.  But that's pretty much what I would expect, because otherwise the world would literally be incomplete.

 

I mean if I say my laptop is made by Sony, that doesn't take away from the Solid State physics of it's processors.

 

 

 

 

 


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Quote:For one thing, I don't

Quote:
For one thing, I don't believe despite my understanding science, I believe because of my understanding of science.

No you don't. You believe because it makes you feel good about yourself, remember?

Quote:
Second it makes me feel that something is behind it all through the complexity and harmony of nature.

There is something behind it all. Natural selection.

Quote:
Third as to which mechanism the Deity adds to explanations, I don't think there are any really.  But that's pretty much what I would expect, because otherwise the world would literally be incomplete.

See? Not science.

Quote:
I mean if I say my laptop is made by Sony, that doesn't take away from the Solid State physics of it's processors

How is an international electronics manufacturing corporation analagous to a magical deity? 'Sony' isn't a mysterious force or entity of any sort; it's a mundane company that makes entertainment goods.

Again, you're just being ridiculous.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote:No you

Kevin R Brown wrote:

No you don't. You believe because it makes you feel good about yourself, remember?

 

Remember? Have I somehow forgotten something?

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

There is something behind it all. Natural selection.

Dig deeper

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

See? Not science.

 

My point was I would expect natural explanations for everything regardless of what exactly their explaining. Mainly because I don't think God hide in the darkness of human understanding.

 

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

How is an international electronics manufacturing corporation analagous to a magical deity? 'Sony' isn't a mysterious force or entity of any sort; it's a mundane company that makes entertainment goods.

 

Maybe I should have said Microsoft since they let you 1337 pwnsauce n00bs at Halo.

 

But the point is that because I can go into the reductionist details of the laptop doesn't mean it wasn't created.

 

 

 

 


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Quote: Second it makes me

Quote:

Second it makes me feel that something is behind it all through the complexity and harmony of nature

Hasn’t your scientific training taught you anything? Haven’t you noticed that when I, or Hamby, write, we ensure that the reader knows exactly what we are talking about. No serious-minded subject has room for statements that are too vague and meaningless to actually be saying anything of importance. Additionally, if you are attempting to elucidate an underlying principle of reality, it is not, in general, a good idea to begin your sentence with “I feel”. The last time I checked, the principles of reality were not subject to the whim of your feelings. What you have essentially said is “I feel that there is something I cannot elucidate”. Well, if you cannot elucidate it, then you don’t know you are even talking about! You can’t possibly make claim like “I feel there is something behind it all” and expect to be taken seriously since that doesn’t actually mean anything.

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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My problem here Kevin Brown

My problem here Kevin Brown is that it's almost as though you worship science and the scientific method. Now I do believe in God and I also hold to evolution.

You assume that for God to exist, then God must have snapped his divine fingers and poof.....the universe came into being. You assume the because there is a scientific process behind the universe that God obviously doesn't exist. You assume that because human beings were the result of a complex process of evolution, then God definitely doesn't exist. I don't make these assumptions.

Now I would agree with you that science does not prove the existence of God. I don't think there is an acceptable scientific proof of God. If you're wondering why I believe in God, I would tell you that I agree with Kant's idea of practical reason that leads to belief in God. But that discussion really isn't meant for this thread.

 

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

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  Christos wrote:My

  

Christos wrote:

My problem here Kevin Brown is that it's almost as though you worship science and the scientific method. Now I do believe in God and I also hold to evolution.

You assume that for God to exist, then God must have snapped his divine fingers and poof.....the universe came into being. You assume the because there is a scientific process behind the universe that God obviously doesn't exist. You assume that because human beings were the result of a complex process of evolution, then God definitely doesn't exist. I don't make these assumptions.

Now I would agree with you that science does not prove the existence of God. I don't think there is an acceptable scientific proof of God. If you're wondering why I believe in God, I would tell you that I agree with Kant's idea of practical reason that leads to belief in God. But that discussion really isn't meant for this thread.

 

Let's see if this works if we plug something else in there:

 

My problem here Kevin Brown is that it's almost as though you worship science and the scientific method. Now I do believe in the invisible pink unicorn and I also hold to evolution.

You assume that for the invisible pink unicorn to exist, then the invisible pink unicorn must have snapped it's divine hooves and poof.....the universe came into being. You assume the because there is a scientific process behind the universe that the invisible pink unicorn obviously doesn't exist. You assume that because human beings were the result of a complex process of evolution, then the invisible pink unicorn definitely doesn't exist. I don't make these assumptions.

Now I would agree with you that science does not prove the existence of the invisible pink unicorn. I don't think there is an acceptable scientific proof of the invisible pink unicorn. If you're wondering why I believe in the invisible pink unicorn, I would tell you that I agree with Kant's idea of practical reason that leads to belief in the invisible pink unicorn. But that discussion really isn't meant for this thread.


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Oh DanMullin, this is why

Oh DanMullin, this is why these forums lack a serious number of Christians. Sarcasm really isn't going to get us anywhere/

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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 Christos wrote:Sarcasm

 

Christos wrote:

Sarcasm really isn't going to get us anywhere

 

I respectfully disagree.  I've met a number of atheists, whose catalyst for conversion, was the ridicule of their beliefs. It has it's time and place.


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 I have yet to see one

 I have yet to see one practical reason to believe in a god or a purple pink prancing pony or whatever. I've read a lot, seen the same old arguments from theists, and they are still extremely unconvincing with applied to any rational logic.


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Havenfall wrote: I have yet

Havenfall wrote:

 I have yet to see one practical reason to believe in a god or a purple pink prancing pony or whatever. I've read a lot, seen the same old arguments from theists, and they are still extremely unconvincing with applied to any rational logic.

I don't think that you have a strong handle on what Kant meant by "practical reason."

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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Oh dear... I was just going

Oh dear... I was just going to sit back and watch this thread ... maybe share a bit of Hamby's popcorn ... but I couldn't resist this.

 

Christos wrote:

You assume that for God to exist, then God must have snapped his divine fingers and poof.....the universe came into being.

The assumption Kevin (and others) makes here is quite valid, Christos. According to a simple literal read of the holy books God accomplished the creation of the universe quickly and easily and people were walking about on it within a matter of a couple of days. So yes, it is not unreasonable to assume that God should not have required billions of years of slow gradual alterations to create man's genetic code.

Christos wrote:

You assume the because there is a scientific process behind the universe that God obviously doesn't exist.

This is shaping up to be a really poor argument, Christos, as again, the assumption you are rejecting is perfectly reasonable. Assuming that scientific process is behind the universe's existence, it reasonably follows that a God is utterly extraneous, hence it's ludicrous to posit one.

Now I've helped you out, here, by pointing out the true assumption which may be flawed in this case.  'causal process' is basically a metaphysical extrapolation which coheres with a number of scientific explanatory models, many of these are reliable, some are flawed - point being however that 'processes causing things' is itself an assumption extrapolated from correlations between events over a dimension of time. It is this which ain't necessarily so.  

Christos wrote:

I don't make these assumptions.

You probably should make those two assumptions if you would purport to have a logical stance.

 

Christos wrote:

You assume that because human beings were the result of a complex process of evolution, then God definitely doesn't exist.

As I noted earlier - the assumption here is that humans are the result of a complex process of evolution; whereas in pure data terms you could essentially say only that a. humanity is part of a complex evolutionary process (then you would be assuming causal process) or b. (without assuming causal process) humans are evolution.

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Quote:My problem here Kevin

Quote:
My problem here Kevin Brown is that it's almost as though you worship science and the scientific method. Now I do believe in God and I also hold to evolution.

I do not 'worship' anything, thanks. I do, however, recognize that science is the only credible way through which we can discover things about our Cosmos.

Quote:
You assume that for God to exist, then God must have snapped his divine fingers and poof.....the universe came into being. You assume the because there is a scientific process behind the universe that God obviously doesn't exist. You assume that because human beings were the result of a complex process of evolution, then God definitely doesn't exist. I don't make these assumptions.

You've preached one too many sermons.

I'm not interested in emotional, repetitive rhetoric, thank you.

 

You didn't even have the courtesy to address the question: What does adding a magical deity on top of what we already know do for our understanding? What does God help us to explain?

I'm 'assuming' shit? What the fuck? I'm asking a question. You're the one with the magical friend who can speak things into existence and is somehow utterly indetectable by any and all means.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Quote:You assume that for

Quote:
You assume that for God to exist, then God must have snapped his divine fingers and poof.....the universe came into being.

Oh, also:

You've read Genesis, right? Because, right in there, it literally says that God speaks the whole universe into being. It's not like I'm the one who made that up.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote: God

Kevin R Brown wrote:

 

God has yet to answer a prayer

Under controlled conditions, when a request is made via prayer for something unambiguous, nothing ever happens.

 

 

LOL! Silly atheist. Prayer only works when you're not looking at it. God works in mysterious (quantum?) ways.

 

 

A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.


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Eloise wrote:The assumption

Eloise wrote:

The assumption Kevin (and others) makes here is quite valid, Christos. According to a simple literal read of the holy books God accomplished the creation of the universe quickly and easily and people were walking about on it within a matter of a couple of days. So yes, it is not unreasonable to assume that God should not have required billions of years of slow gradual alterations to create man's genetic code.

Well Eloise, although you make a valid point, I am not a Christian. All I said is that I believe in God. So from my perspective,  God is beyond human understanding, and I don't assume how God should or should not create the universe.

Furthermore Eloise, I am a world religions major. I can tell you from studying Christianity that strict inerrant reading and interpretation of the Bible didn't exist until the 19th Century as a reaction to modernity. The Princeton School of Theology (famous for it's hermeneutic of inerrancy) comes out of this. Although certainly Christians before this time viewed Genesis as a literal text, many famous Christians did not. For example, Augustine of Hippo specifically insulted Christians who thought that Genesis was literal history and science. He lived in the 4th century CE.

 

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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Quote:LOL! Silly atheist.

Quote:
LOL! Silly atheist. Prayer only works when you're not looking at it. God works in mysterious (quantum?) ways.

One of the most absurd things about theists within an orthodoxy (so this discounts Eloise & Alison) is the inane suggestion from someone that they've talked to God or had favors done by him.

For those of you whom pray, isn't it a tad odd that nothing you have ever prayed for, ever, has been delivered to you? Perhaps you won't admit this, yet we both know it's absolutely true. Nothing you have asked for has ever directly materialized right before you, nothing you've prayed for to be done has ever magically been accomplished.

For those of you whom claim to have talked to your deity or felt his magical presence: shame on you. That was dishonest, and we both know it. You 'spoke in tongues' and pretended to have convulsions because you wanted to show your peers that you were special too, and you fabricated your stories of visions or divine apparitions for the same reason.

 

What's the issue, here? Do you actually think that, really, it must only be you that isn't being graced by God's magical powers? Good grief – it's a charade. Nobody is actually being talked to by a supreme being, or seeing visions, or getting the things they pray for. Most of us are just too polite to call-out their deceit.

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Eloise wrote:Oh dear... I

Eloise wrote:

Oh dear... I was just going to sit back and watch this thread ... maybe share a bit of Hamby's popcorn

 

 

Actually he's taking a while to come back so I ate his popcorn.

 

 


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Kevin R Brown wrote:You've

Kevin R Brown wrote:

You've preached one too many sermons.

I'm not interested in emotional, repetitive rhetoric, thank you.

You didn't even have the courtesy to address the question: What does adding a magical deity on top of what we already know do for our understanding? What does God help us to explain?

I'm 'assuming' shit? What the fuck? I'm asking a question. You're the one with the magical friend who can speak things into existence and is somehow utterly indetectable by any and all means.

Actually Kevin, I'm not a Christian. So I've never preached a sermon. Sorry

I don't know how God helps us. I believe that God is beyond human understanding, so I can't tell you all about his plan.

You are assuming that God can't exist if we understand aspects of the universe. Like I said, I don't make assumptions about how God should create the universe.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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Kevin R Brown wrote:You've

Kevin R Brown wrote:

You've read Genesis, right? Because, right in there, it literally says that God speaks the whole universe into being. It's not like I'm the one who made that up.

Well yes I have read Genesis. But I'm not a Christian so I don't believe in it.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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Quote:I don't know how God

Quote:
I don't know how God helps us. I believe that God is beyond human understanding, so I can't tell you all about his plan.

That makes no sense at all. How can you know nothing about God, but be certain about God's existence?

Quote:
You are assuming that God can't exist if we understand aspects of the universe. Like I said, I don't make assumptions about how God should create the universe.

Here, I'll let you do the legwork, then:

Explain how I'm creating an extra assumption by offering an explanation of a given mechanism and asking you to explain how adding God to the equation helps to gives us a fuller understanding of said mechanism.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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    Christos wrote:I

    

Christos wrote:

I don't think that you have a strong handle on what Kant meant by "practical reason."

 

Nobody else has chimed in on this yet.  As I have yet to read the book, I decided to check it out.

 

From: Immanuel Kant, The Critique Of Practical Reason Chapter 2, Part V: The Existence of God as a Postulate of Pure Practical Reason.

Quote:

Now it was seen to be a duty for us to promote the summum bonum; consequently it is not merely allowable, but it is a necessity connected with duty as a requisite, that we should presuppose the possibility of this summum bonum; and as this is possible only on condition of the existence of God, it inseparably connects the supposition of this with duty; that is, it is morally necessary to assume the existence of God.

 

Does this just boil down to?:

(Please correct me if I have butchered this)

 

Absolute moral laws can only exist if there is a God.

It is the duty of humans to promote an absolute moral law.

Therefore, assuming God exists is a necessity.


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Christos wrote:Furthermore

Christos wrote:

Furthermore Eloise, I am a world religions major. I can tell you from studying Christianity that strict inerrant reading and interpretation of the Bible didn't exist until the 19th Century as a reaction to modernity. The Princeton School of Theology (famous for it's hermeneutic of inerrancy) comes out of this. Although certainly Christians before this time viewed Genesis as a literal text, many famous Christians did not. For example, Augustine of Hippo specifically insulted Christians who thought that Genesis was literal history and science. He lived in the 4th century CE.

 

You seem to have noted it, but I'll say it anyway - I wasn't advocating for a literal reading of genesis to be anything but a valid basis for the assumption. I didn't mean to imply that it was a more correct nor more traditional approach by any means. And just forthe record, since you appear not to have been aware of it, I have previously explained my personal view on interpreting religious doctrine on these forums, it is a totally non-literal approach.

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DanMullin

DanMullin wrote:

    

 Does this just boil down to?:

(Please correct me if I have butchered this)

 

Absolute moral laws can only exist if there is a God.

It is the duty of humans to promote an absolute moral law.

Therefore, assuming God exists is a necessity.

That's a part of it, but there is a lot more to it. I don't necessarily agree with this part of Kant's argument.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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Kevin R Brown wrote:That

Kevin R Brown wrote:

That makes no sense at all. How can you know nothing about God, but be certain about God's existence?

Ah, I never said I was certain about God's existence. That's not the case at all.

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Explain how I'm creating an extra assumption by offering an explanation of a given mechanism and asking you to explain how adding God to the equation helps to gives us a fuller understanding of said mechanism.

I never said that God gives us a fuller understanding of a given mechanism. You stated in your original post:

"God did not create the universe

Our universe was formed via the expansion of of a singularity and subsequent formation of structures by hydrogen atoms through gravitational attraction. A magical deity adds nothing to the known explanation."

You assume that our understanding of the formation of the universe scientifically = the nonexistence of God

Thus, I feel like your main assumption is that if God exists, we shouldn't be able to understand the formation of the universe. I don't make this assumption.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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Eloise wrote:You seem to

Eloise wrote:

You seem to have noted it, but I'll say it anyway - I wasn't advocating for a literal reading of genesis to be anything but a valid basis for the assumption. I didn't mean to imply that it was a more correct nor more traditional approach by any means. And just forthe record, since you appear not to have been aware of it, I have previously explained my personal view on interpreting religious doctrine on these forums, it is a totally non-literal approach.

That last part that I wrote about literal reading and inerrant doctrines was a little off topic. I'm sure you were aware that that is not the traditional method. Sometimes I do feel like many posters on this forum are not aware of that. Augustine's critique of a literal reading of Genesis in the 4th CE is striking to people who accuse Christianity of being intellectually bankrupt throughout it's history.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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Christos wrote:You assume

Christos wrote:

You assume that our understanding of the formation of the universe scientifically = the nonexistence of God

 

 

That's one of my pet peeves.

 

I would think God would create a universe in which he doesn't have to play mechanic and constantly give it a tune up. That's what I don't like about the Intelligent Design movement either.

 

 

 

 

 


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Christos wrote:You assume

[double post]

 

 

 

 


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Quote:"God did not create

Quote:

"God did not create the universe

Our universe was formed via the expansion of of a singularity and subsequent formation of structures by hydrogen atoms through gravitational attraction. A magical deity adds nothing to the known explanation."

You assume that our understanding of the formation of the universe scientifically = the nonexistence of God

No. All that I said was that 'God' adds nothing to our knowledge of how the universe formed. That's not an assumption; it's an illustration that invoking God is the assumption, and an unecessary one.

 

Now, for the sake of completeness, 'God' is a joke to me. Patently stupid. However, this is not what I stated in any of the opening scroll. I simply conveyed that magical deities are not helpful in allowing us to understand the universe (which you've just acknowledged anyway, so I believe that more or less settles things).

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote: 'God'

Kevin R Brown wrote:

 'God' is a joke to me. Patently stupid.

 

And then God created humans in his image.

 

 

 


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no magicians

Try this experiment.  Pray to any god.  Ask him/her to appear and you will devote your life.  Nothing will ever happen.  Pray to that gods devil.  Make the same offer.  Nothing will ever happen.


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:Kevin R

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Kevin R Brown wrote:

 'God' is a joke to me. Patently stupid.

 

And then God created humans in his image.

 

 

 

I have to admit it, I love your sense of humour. Laughing out loud

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Dracos wrote:Try this

Dracos wrote:

Try this experiment.  Pray to any god.  Ask him/her to appear and you will devote your life.  Nothing will ever happen.  Pray to that gods devil.  Make the same offer.  Nothing will ever happen.

Just because you want God to be your little genie in a bottle doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. You just have to learn how to pray.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

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Christos wrote:Dracos

Christos wrote:

Dracos wrote:

Try this experiment.  Pray to any god.  Ask him/her to appear and you will devote your life.  Nothing will ever happen.  Pray to that gods devil.  Make the same offer.  Nothing will ever happen.

Just because you want God to be your little genie in a bottle doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. You just have to learn how to pray.

Learn how to pray? Praying is essentially begging to god on your knees. You can't learn to beg on your knees. Praying is a 50% chance process. I could pray to a leaf and get the same results as praying to ANY god.

Just because that one prayer to god landed in your favor doesn't he/she/it's there. It would've happened regardless.

I don't have the time to cater to your religious beliefs. Its much less time consuming to simply mock them, and, on occasion, give a reasonable explanation as to why I do so. But that's if I'm in a good mood.


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Kevin R Brown wrote:God has

Kevin R Brown wrote:

God has yet to answer a prayer

Under controlled conditions, when a request is made via prayer for something unambiguous, nothing ever happens.

None of the mythological texts supposedly divined into existence by God reflect reality.

I disagree that God has yet to answer a pray. I have had many prayers answered. The answer is just never what you expect. Hashem answers prays in His time and in His own way.

Also, I disagree that mythological texts don't reflect reality. The commandments of the Torah are my daily reality. And you are making a very generalizing statement that "none of the mythological texts.....reflect reality." Have you read all religious texts other than the Christian Bible? Ever read the Talmud?

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fgneibarger wrote:Learn how

fgneibarger wrote:

Learn how to pray? Praying is essentially begging to god on your knees. You can't learn to beg on your knees. Praying is a 50% chance process. I could pray to a leaf and get the same results as praying to ANY god.

Just because that one prayer to god landed in your favor doesn't he/she/it's there. It would've happened regardless.

You don't really have a full grasp on what prayer is. For me when I pray, my primary goal is to thank God for being alive, for my health and the health of my family, for the blessing of love, for my friends. Essentially I thank God for the incredible blessing of life. I hardly ever ask anything from God.

Your image of prayer is someone on their knees begging God for a PS3. That's maybe true for some people, but not for me.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

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Christos wrote:fgneibarger

Christos wrote:

fgneibarger wrote:

Learn how to pray? Praying is essentially begging to god on your knees. You can't learn to beg on your knees. Praying is a 50% chance process. I could pray to a leaf and get the same results as praying to ANY god.

Just because that one prayer to god landed in your favor doesn't he/she/it's there. It would've happened regardless.

You don't really have a full grasp on what prayer is. For me when I pray, my primary goal is to thank God for being alive, for my health and the health of my family, for the blessing of love, for my friends. Essentially I thank God for the incredible blessing of life. I hardly ever ask anything from God.

Your image of prayer is someone on their knees begging God for a PS3. That's maybe true for some people, but not for me.

Why do you need to thank god for things you earned yourself and keep in check? You earned your family and friends, and if you or your family were ever sick or dying, it was the doctors at the hospital that made sure you were alright, not god.

And my image of prayer is so because as a child, back when I was christian, that's what the church taught me. I know what prayer is.

I don't have the time to cater to your religious beliefs. Its much less time consuming to simply mock them, and, on occasion, give a reasonable explanation as to why I do so. But that's if I'm in a good mood.


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 Christos wrote:I hardly

 

Christos wrote:

I hardly ever ask anything from God.

 

This implies that you do occasionally ask God for things.

 

I'll tell you this right now:  If you really have the ability to communicate with the creator of the universe, and if he really has the time to deal with you, please ask him to end suffering in the world.  If what you say is true, this should not be an unreasonable request.

 

I hope you can get this done by tomorrow.


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DanMullin wrote: Christos

DanMullin wrote:

 

Christos wrote:

I hardly ever ask anything from God.

 

This implies that you do occasionally ask God for things.

 

I'll tell you this right now:  If you really have the ability to communicate with the creator of the universe, and if he really has the time to deal with you, please ask him to end suffering in the world.  If what you say is true, this should not be an unreasonable request.

 

I hope you can get this done by tomorrow.

I'll be watching and waiting.

 

In all honesty, why hasn't this been done yet? I expect that if god were as loving and did listen to all of us, nothing bad would've ever happened. But if the purpose of prayer is to be thankful, we've been getting dooped for a LONG time.

I don't have the time to cater to your religious beliefs. Its much less time consuming to simply mock them, and, on occasion, give a reasonable explanation as to why I do so. But that's if I'm in a good mood.


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fgneibarger wrote:Why do you

fgneibarger wrote:

Why do you need to thank god for things you earned yourself and keep in check? You earned your family and friends, and if you or your family were ever sick or dying, it was the doctors at the hospital that made sure you were alright, not god.

And my image of prayer is so because as a child, back when I was christian, that's what the church taught me. I know what prayer is.

You make a good point that I do earn my good relationships. However, I believe in God's love. I've seen God's love in my family, friends and complete strangers. That's why I thank God for these people in my life.

And just because you were a Christian doesn't mean you understand prayer.

And DanMullin, you make a good point about prayer related to worldwide suffering. But that subject relates more to the problem of evil. That's for a different thread.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


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Quote: Essentially I thank

Quote:

Essentially I thank God for the incredible blessing of life. I hardly ever ask anything from God.

You’ve shot yourself in the foot. Previously in the thread you asserted that this thing you call “God” is beyond human understanding. If you assert that something is beyond your epistemological faculties then you automatically exclude yourself from talking about it at all. It no longer becomes a meaningful notion. Yet now you’ve just conceded that this thing has the recognizable property of agency. It is a conscious object, which, for some strange reason, is listening with concern to you, one of countless inhabitants of a small rock orbiting a very normal star in a spiral arm of a galaxy belonging to a cluster of similar galaxies. The mental contortions you must have had to go through to reconcile the belief in something which by definition you cannot articulate (otherwise it would not be beyond your understanding) and believing that this thing (which, remember, is beyond your understanding) is a conscious agent listening (with concern) to your prayers, are astounding. If you begin with the premise that some object X is beyond your understanding, what conclusions could you draw? Well, actually none since logical sentences cannot work with enthymemes. There must be a second premise for you to be able to move toward a conclusion. However, you can’t have a second premise because your first premise (this thing is beyond your understanding) excludes the ability for you to formulate another premise.

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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You make a good point

You make a good point deludegod. I guess the defense of my position goes back to my original post on this thread about God. I hold to Kant's position that pure reason doesn't lead to God. I disagree with every scientific proof for God's existence. That's why I say that God is beyond human understanding.

However, I also agree with Kant that practical reason leads to God. I've seen God's love in random experiences at various points in my life. For example, I worked for a summer at a school in a rural Guatemalan town outside of Antigua. I was an atheist going into the experience. It's hard to describe, but I could see God's love in the school, in the community, in the people. This isn't a proof by pure reason. But I couldn't ignore the experience and pretend that a loving God isn't real. I tried to ignore it, pretend that it there was nothing else behind the experience, but I couldn't.

So I still hold that God is beyond human understanding. This experience was not me understanding God, but rather God displaying His love to me.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

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 Quote: So I still hold

 

Quote:

So I still hold that God is beyond human understanding. This experience was not me understanding God, but rather God displaying His love to me.

But this doesn’t actually answer the problem at hand. The implication of your previous post is that God is an object with the property of conscious agency. If we are trying to discuss this thing called “God” and we start by saying something like “God cares about me” then we are saying God is a natural object. It’s clearly got a comprehensible property. It’s a definite thing with definite properties that we are talking about. If, on the other hand, we say something like “God is in the rocks and the trees” or “God is love” or “God is in all things” etc. ad infinitum then we aren’t actually saying…well, anything really, at least not from a rigorous philosophical standpoint. Theists talk about God as it were basically a person. He talks to them (they use the male pronoun, tellingly). They talk to him. Thus they are discussing a comprehensible object with comprehensible properties. The problem comes because they simultaneously do an about face and say something like “God is outside all nature and human understanding”. By itself, this doesn’t really mean anything, but put together with the first statement, it presents a contradiction. It clearly doesn’t work (1) for epistemological reasons and (2) for empirical reasons. Even more maddeningly, they often then attempt to resolve this contradiction by appealing to the notion that God is supposedly beyond our understanding, in other words, the very thing which created the contradiction!

 

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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I've never understood this

I've never understood this whole experience God thing. Am I missing something?