Rationality.

azmhyr
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Rationality.

Your argument is that theism is irrational in every way, because it requires belief in it without proof. And that is called "faith" by english speaking people, "iman" by us, have certain words corresponding to it in other languages. You are right. Theism does require faith in all cases. But does it necesserily mean that it is irrational? For something to be irrational, it must oppose your point of view of "rationality". And your point of view of something rational requires scientific proof. But it seems to me that people who do adhere to a god or a number of gods, or just have some sort of belief in the supernatural do not look for scientific proof, although people did, throughout history to scientifically prove god, and did not succeed, and that is why "God" is not a subject of the science of today. Other than creationists who are usually shunned from the scientific point of view for mixing dogma into positive science which does not deal with dogmatic practices, there is no scientist who tries to prove or disprove god.

So why are you looking for some sort of a scientific proof of God? IF the subject is not a part of the branches of science who deal with the phenomena of nature, what kind of a proof can you present?

Also, I mentioned that theists, may they be christian, pagan or jew, do not look for some kind of proof of the validity of their religion and the existence of their God. To them, religion is "rational" and thats why they believe in the religion and the        god(s) corresponding to their religion. So what you're trying to do is to disprove their god by using your own perspective of rationality which goes against their point of view of rationality. And this usually does not work, unless the person itself changes his/her point of view of rationality, but until then, anything you fling at them, will usually miss.


aiia
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Quote:You are right. Theism

Quote:
You are right. Theism does require faith

Faith in what?

 

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So why are you looking for some sort of a scientific proof of God?

I'm not.

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So what you're trying to do is to disprove their god

Disproving is not necessary nor possible because nothing has been proved.

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by using your own perspective of rationality which goes against their point of view of rationality.

There is no “perspective” of rationality nor is there a “view” of rationality.

 

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And this usually does not work, unless the person itself changes his/her point of view of rationality,

If it is a “point of view of rationality” then it is irrational because there is no “point of view of rationality”.

 

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but until then, anything you fling at them, will usually miss.

If you miss it is because you do not want to catch.

 

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


butterbattle
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Congrats, Nordmann, you get

Congrats, Nordmann, you get another dollar.

azmhyr wrote:

You are right. Theism does require faith in all cases. But does it necesserily mean that it is irrational?

Belief without justification is irrational by definition. If your "faith" allows you to believe something without legitimate supporting evidence or logic, then, yes, it is necessarily irrational.

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For something to be irrational, it must oppose your point of view of "rationality".

No, for something to be irrational, it must oppose rationality. Logic is objective. My point of view doesn't determine what is rational.

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And your point of view of something rational requires scientific proof.

Yes.

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But it seems to me that people who do adhere to a god or a number of gods, or just have some sort of belief in the supernatural do not look for scientific proof, although people did, throughout history to scientifically prove god, and did not succeed, and that is why "God" is not a subject of the science of today. Other than creationists who are usually shunned from the scientific point of view for mixing dogma into positive science which does not deal with dogmatic practices, there is no scientist who tries to prove or disprove god.

Correct.

Quote:
So why are you looking for some sort of a scientific proof of God? IF the subject is not a part of the branches of science who deal with the phenomena of nature, what kind of a proof can you present?

None. If your proposition cannot be tackled using philosophy, science or some reliable method, then it cannot be proven.

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Also, I mentioned that theists, may they be christian, pagan or jew, do not look for some kind of proof of the validity of their religion and the existence of their God.

Most of them do.

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To them, religion is "rational" and thats why they believe in the religion and the god(s) corresponding to their religion.

If they can't prove that their God even exists, then how is their religion rational?

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So what you're trying to do is to disprove their god by using your own perspective of rationality which goes against their point of view of rationality.

Irrelevant. There is only one reality. Regardless of what either of us thinks 2 + 2 equals, it will always equal 4.

All objective evidence, when considered in context, can eventually only be interpreted one way. For example, the monstrous fossil record clearly demonstrates common descent due to the types of organisms found and their ages, as determined by various dating methods. Creationists cannot interpret this as evidence of a Creator, which is why they simply deny that the evidence even exists.

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And this usually does not work, unless the person itself changes his/her point of view of rationality, but until then, anything you fling at them, will usually miss.

What the hell do you think rationality means? There is no point of rationality. You meant "point of view." Reason is objective. Opinions are subjective. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


butterbattle
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Hmmm, let me try to

Hmmm, let me try to clarify.

What is faith? What is the scientific method? Is it possible for a person to be illogical and rational at the same time? Considering your assertion that theists ignore science within the context of their beliefs, then how do theists justify their beliefs?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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azmhyr wrote:So why are you

azmhyr wrote:

So why are you looking for some sort of a scientific proof of God? IF the subject is not a part of the branches of science who deal with the phenomena of nature, what kind of a proof can you present?

Science does deal with nature.  Keep in mind theists don't tell us god is in nature, they tell us he is supernatural.  Furthermore science would certainly in fact involve itself in proving the existence of god, however we have no means to test for him/it/her.  It is precisely because there is no scientific means to verify god that you should alleviate yourself from belief in such an entity.  Can you name 5 other things that we as a society believe in that science can't verify? 

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Theists are great at

Theists are great at twisting the definitions of words, but that's all they are doing. The term "rational" has a clear definition. Perspective and opinion is irrelevant. Being rational requires a use of logic, though not necessarily science. Use of belief and fiction is by definition irrational.

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Quote:So what you're trying

Quote:
So what you're trying to do is to disprove their god by using your own perspective of rationality which goes against their point of view of rationality.

Scientific method is not "our" invention. It is a unconscious tool (like a wrench or screwdriver )with no bias to atheists or theists. It is not the fault of the skeptic that the magical claims of the cheerleaders of ancient tribes do not bear out to reality.

The earth is not flat no matter what anyone's point of view is. Scientific method is a process, not a point of view.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
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Quote:So what you're trying

Quote:
So what you're trying to do is to disprove their god by using your own perspective of rationality which goes against their point of view of rationality.

Scientific method is not "our" invention. It is a unconscious tool (like a wrench or screwdriver )with no bias to atheists or theists. It is not the fault of the skeptic that the magical claims of the cheerleaders of ancient tribes do not bear out to reality.

The earth is not flat no matter what anyone's point of view is. Scientific method is a process, not a point of view.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37