Since I'm on about child abuse...

Hambydammit
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Since I'm on about child abuse...

 Can we all agree that these children have no clue what they're talking about, and that this is shameless exploitation and abuse?

 

 

To those who don't think that religious indoctrination is necessarily child abuse, can you explain to me how this particular version of indoctrination IS child abuse, but other versions aren't?

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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DamnDirtyApe
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 That may be the best video

 That may be the best video of all time.  I think the Pentecostals have got it straight, actually.  They already engage in baby talk, so they might as put an infant up there.  I wish you'd posted this where more theists might see it, however.  I'll definitely be putting it on my facebook page.

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Out law

 

 

  Even one in diapers,  that is just wrong.


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 Jeez...I couldn't even

 

Jeez...I couldn't even watch the whole thing.  Disgusting...


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It's cleary exploitation of

It's cleary exploitation of children for political reasons.

But seriously, very religious folk do much worse than turning their kids into mini-preachers...

*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*

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For the record... i was

For the record... i was thinking about commiting ALOT of child abuse while watching that video


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dammit Hamby. Any hope I had

dammit Hamby. Any hope I had for humanity just got crushed.


 


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Hambydammit wrote: Can we

Hambydammit wrote:

 Can we all agree that these children have no clue what they're talking about, and that this is shameless exploitation and abuse?

To those who don't think that religious indoctrination is necessarily child abuse, can you explain to me how this particular version of indoctrination IS child abuse, but other versions aren't?

They differ from adult preachers in that they cannot use the men's restrooms unescorted.

 


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Hambydammit wrote: Can we

Hambydammit wrote:

 Can we all agree that these children have no clue what they're talking about, and that this is shameless exploitation and abuse?

It is utterly shameless exploitation, to be sure. I'm not sure about the abuse part, exactly. I mean, within a few days I could easily teach my four-year-old to do this. Young children are extremely malleable mentally, and love latching on to new words and activities. All the parents of these kids have done is to teach their kids to talk and act a certain way.

The abuse part of it is that these kids will grow up thinking this is normal.

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

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anniet
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geirj wrote:It is utterly

geirj wrote:

It is utterly shameless exploitation, to be sure. I'm not sure about the abuse part, exactly. I mean, within a few days I could easily teach my four-year-old to do this. Young children are extremely malleable mentally, and love latching on to new words and activities. All the parents of these kids have done is to teach their kids to talk and act a certain way.

The abuse part of it is that these kids will grow up thinking this is normal.

After looking into Marjoe Gortner's life and the effects from his upbringing I would call it abuse without any hesitation.  I don't think you could get any kid to go this far without extreme manipulation of one kind or another.  Of course, I could certainly be wrong.  Do you know of any cases where there's enough information to definitively say there isn't any abuse going on?

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anniet wrote:Do you know of

anniet wrote:

Do you know of any cases where there's enough information to definitively say there isn't any abuse going on?

I should be clear that I don't know who any of these kids are. It's possible that any or all of them could be suffering abuse. I'm just saying that I think it's possible to teach this "preacher" behavior to kids pretty easily, and without abuse. We'd need more information on the kids in the video to tell if they're being abused.

I think regardless it's extremely stupid for the parents of these kids to make them into these mini-preachers. Most congregational leaders, be they priests, pastors, etc., go to school for a lot of years and to a lot of interning before getting their own congregation. This kind of stunt would seem to me to be undermining.

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

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darth_josh
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Wow.I get berated for

Wow.

I get berated for anecdotal evidence in the other thread and in this one everyone seems to be shouting a witness to you.

???

Marjoe Gortner grew up. You've seen the movie right?

Isn't it the question whether or not religious indoctrination fucks them up for life?

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I find this sort of fitting

I find this sort of fitting since I compare the belief of the coming apocalypse/rapture to the behavior where kids don't want to go to bed because everyone else is staying up and might have fun without them.

-Triften


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Quote:Isn't it the question

Quote:
Isn't it the question whether or not religious indoctrination fucks them up for life?

No.

The question is whether religious indoctrination is more likely than not to cause serious problems, at least well into adulthood.   Maybe we should have spelled that out.  The exception (someone who grows up to be normal despite abuse) doesn't mean it isn't abuse.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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darth_josh
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Hmmm. What's 'normal'?What

Hmmm.

What's 'normal'?

What have we found that is empirical about 'normal'?

In my personal opinion, this is like fixing a flat tire for a car that hasn't been manufactured yet. You're not even sure if the wheel fits because the hub isn't cast.

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Hambydammit
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Josh, if you want to get

Josh, if you want to get into a meta-debate about normal, we can do that, but I've noticed that you still haven't defined abuse for me.  Is it your intention to render the term "abuse" meaningless and thereby grind this whole conversation to a halt?

Instead of poo-pooing everything that's being said, why don't you offer a coherent definition of abuse, and your reasons for liking that definition.  You and I both know that both of us are capable of twisting any psychological discussion in knots and rendering it useless philosophically.  I'm more concerned with the practical reality that religious indoctrination causes real (if difficult to define) harm.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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A few of those kids were

A few of those kids were featured in the BBC documentary "Baby Bible Bashers." It was sort of similar to Jesus camp, in that the entire thing is unbiased, and the experiences of these children speak for themselves. Anyone that hasn't watched it should, because it is scary indeed.

The idea that these children are "touched by God" or "little miracles" is ludicrous. Notice that these children always are the product of an intensely religious environment and are influenced heavily by their parents. Now if the child of atheist parents felt "touched" or felt the need to spread the word about God, THAT would be a miracle, and would be much better evidence for a God.


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Abuse in this instance is

Abuse in this instance is ridiculously difficult to pin down to one definition. Abuse in and of itself isn't.

In my opinion, there must be clear intent to harm the child. A case for 'abuse by ignorance' could be made using negligence by prohibition of information from the child, but simply telling kids to read the bible and believe it isn't. It seems apparent that the child must be given the opportunity to ask 'Why?' on their own even in the face of indoctrination.

Simply programming kids to be atheists would be just as ethically unsound as programming children to be theists.

Marjoe is actually one of my favorite anecdotes of all time. We have at least ten years for the jesus camp kids to grow up. Remember, I was a jesus camp kid. I am not unique.

People, parents in particular, are seemingly determined to fail at least a few times during the upbringing of their children.

Some have been parenting based upon their own adverse experiences in their rearing.

I call it 'Knowing what NOT to do as a parent'. All of the pent-up hostility that others share while on the shrink's couch is fodder for thinking parents. "Daddy didn't go to my dance recital, but I'll never miss one of my child's!" kind of thing.

Some are parenting based exactly upon the way they were raised and having to adjust with every changing societal moral construct as it happens.

An example of this is cellphones. I didn't have one as a 12 yr old. Should I give my daughter one if she continues to be on the honor rolls? Will it fuck up the homework time and cause her grades to suffer? Will she be an outcast in her class because she does not have one?

I have no data upon which to create a testable hypothesis to deal with this problem except for WHILE IT IS HAPPENING.

In the case of religious indoctrination, the parents are using one or both of the aforementioned methods of parenting. Either they were church-going and it did them a service of some sort OR they didn't go to church and think that they were missing out on something that they want their children to experience.

Which is right/correct?

Now, it falls to morality (which is my least favorite thing in the world). Ethics has no place here, in my opinion because as soon as we observe something and react we are doing so in a deterministic reference.

For instance, you see someone spanking their child in public. What do YOU do? I gauge the severity of the punishment and either walk away or say something like "Hey, take it easy." Other people call the police and demand the parent be lynched.

Where is the normal reaction? Momentum and force of the hand? Relative durometer reading of the child's ass?

How much bible thumping is 'abuse'? How much does it take to warrant my involvement?

What is my counter-argument if I am accused of abuse for giving my son 'god is not great: How religion poisons everything' to read?

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darth_josh wrote:Marjoe is

darth_josh wrote:

Marjoe is actually one of my favorite anecdotes of all time. We have at least ten years for the jesus camp kids to grow up. Remember, I was a jesus camp kid. I am not unique.

It is nice to see that he doesn't appear to have been warped for life and that he has ended up ok.  That doesn't mean that what he went through wasn't abuse.  People are an interesting combination of both fragile and resilient.  Some people come through abuse of any kind ok.  I remember reading about a good deal of physical coercion used on him as a child in order to get him to perform to his parents' expectations.  Am I remembering this incorrectly and confusing him with someone else? 

 

darth_josh wrote:
How much bible thumping is 'abuse'? How much does it take to warrant my involvement?

What is my counter-argument if I am accused of abuse for giving my son 'god is not great: How religion poisons everything' to read?

Given the apparent emotional responses (toddlers excluded) of the children in the clip I would call this abuse.  They do appear to be suffering and feeling emotional pain at a very deep level, beyond what a child should be asked to deal with.  What is shown in the clip is more than just sending your kid to a mainstream church to keep the peace with a theist spouse/ex-spouse.  I would not call giving a kid the bible to read abuse, getting them to truly feel the adult emotions behind hellfire and damnation is psychological abuse.  

"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.


darth_josh
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We haven't even analyzed the

We haven't even analyzed the amount of 'attention' that a child craves.

They have seen their parents or grandparents listen to ministers intently and never interrupt them. They see their elders speak with voices of adulation for the clergy.

A child craving attention would exploit the opportunities that preaching gives to get the attention of guardians.

N'est ce pas?

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anniet
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darth_josh wrote:We haven't

darth_josh wrote:

We haven't even analyzed the amount of 'attention' that a child craves.

They have seen their parents or grandparents listen to ministers intently and never interrupt them. They see their elders speak with voices of adulation for the clergy.

A child craving attention would exploit the opportunities that preaching gives to get the attention of guardians.

N'est ce pas?

Yeah, but we both know you don't give a kid what they want just because they want it.  Maybe the drama queen gene runs strong in some of these families.  Even so, there is no way this is a good outlet for such behavior.  The emotional content of the material given these children is beyond inappropriate.  This type of manipulative child exploitation is simply not ok IMO. 

I lean towards the abuse label based on the general inability of children to deal with this type of psychological manipulation.  They don't know to say "Stop.  You're hurting me."  I simply don't like the idea of gambling with a child's mental health.

"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.


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Child abuse

This is not child abuse.  It is disagreeable to us because we disagree with the message.  What I see is very common behaviour in apes.  The young copy the actions of their elders.


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Quote:I get berated for

Quote:

I get berated for anecdotal evidence in the other thread and in this one everyone seems to be shouting a witness to you.

???

Yeah. Because video evidence is 'anecdotal', just like how an astronomer explaining how a spectrometer is used to determine the composition of the sun is 'anecdotal'.

 

Josh, grow-up.

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
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 Based on casual

 

Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis

 

Kevin, use a dictionary when you get your allowance.

Love ya.

If I had raised you...

lol

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Kevin R Brown
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[url=http://dictionary.refere

an-ec-dote (noun)

a short account of a particular incident or event of an interesting or amusing nature, often biographical.

 

Hm. Nope.

Videotaped evidence definitely doesn't fit that description.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940