Why atheism is more simple with morals

SmallChristian
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Why atheism is more simple with morals

 Have you ever seen birds kill, steal, rape to such an excess that they destroyed themselves such as mankind would without religion?  I haven't seen any animal species treat its own kind to extinction, have you?  Why do dogs go in wild groups looking out for each other and looking up to the alpha male?  What's with that?  These "animals" aren't so immoral after all, well, some can be disgusting (praying mantis anyone?) but they don't seem to destroy themselves or cause doom.

 

The moral code is the core of this debate.  The debate of whether or not religion is needed.  I feel that there are thousands of closet atheists arguing with atheists about morals.  The reason is because I once did, and if Idid, someone else had to!  If that doesn't convince you, many people (including agnostics) feel that religion is necessary.  I think that somewhere deep inside there is a desire for a religion of some sort.  I think that not only are memes goping around, but that people are wired be religious!  Religious about someihing right?  

I go to the gym on a relguar baiss, and have bnen for a little over a year.  One thing I noticed is that many people have different philosphies on how they maintain their body or bulk up!  Some people do whol,e body workouts, some people swear by a 4 day splitt, some people just do cardio, etc, etc.

I've noticed that every technioque works. I've tried them all and seen them work!  It's funny that people believe only some fitness styles get results.  It's almost like they are "Religious" about it!

When we try to explain the wortld around us, and deal wiuth our instictive fear of death; we create a religion.  Perhaps religion isn't something completely established, but CULTURE itself??

 

 


Wonderist
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Hi SmallChristian, I read

Hi SmallChristian, I read your deconversion story on the other thread. Congratulations! By the way, I think if you ask one of the moderators (say, in a private message), you can possibly have them change your username, if you want to.

SmallChristian wrote:

The moral code is the core of this debate.  The debate of whether or not religion is needed.  I feel that there are thousands of closet atheists arguing with atheists about morals.  The reason is because I once did, and if Idid, someone else had to!  If that doesn't convince you, many people (including agnostics) feel that religion is necessary.  I think that somewhere deep inside there is a desire for a religion of some sort.  I think that not only are memes goping around, but that people are wired be religious!  Religious about someihing right? 

I see what you are getting at, but I don't think we are wired to be 'religious'. First, what exactly do you mean by 'religious'? It's a very vague and fuzzy word, and if you define it too loosely, then literally *anything* can be considered a religion.

For example, I think we are definitely wired to be *emotional*, and there are ideas floating around, such as this false idea that people need religion to be moral, that make some people *afraid* to admit they don't believe, or in the case of agnostics, afraid to confront the negative effects of religion for fear that it will lead to immorality.

But this is a wiring of fear, not religion. Some ideas are scary, and if we believe them, we will be afraid of them and we will take actions to avoid the consequences. This indicates that people are wired to act according to their emotions.

But these ideas can be ideas of any kind. I can be afraid of walking on a tight-rope because I'm afraid of falling. But that doesn't mean that 'fear of tightropes' is my 'religion'. It's just one idea.

Religions, in my opinion, are a collection of ideas that involve a few irrational, emotional ideas. The religion uses these emotional 'hooks' in order to cause you to believe and to act in the benefit of the religion itself, such that the entire religion spreads from person to person. To me, this is what a religion is, and how it works. Different religions use different hooks, but they all have their hooks.

So, I don't think people are wired for religion. In the same way, people are not 'wired' for infectious diseases. Instead, people are wired for emotions, and religions are wired to *exploit* those emotions. Just like a virus is 'wired' to exploit receptors on a cell membrane, in order to inject its DNA into the cell.

For instance, people are not 'wired' to fear hell. They are wired to fear things that will cause pain and harm. The idea of 'hell' arouses this fear, and so people get 'infected' by this idea and it modifies their behaviour. The idea of 'hell', by itself, is not a religion. But many religions include the idea of hell. This is what makes them religions: They include irrational, emotional ideas to hook into people and modify their behaviour.

I don't think it's possible for a person to rid themselves of *all* irrational, emotional ideas. But it is possible for them to eliminate most of them, and certainly to eliminate the ones which are associated with religions. And so, it's possible for people to live very well without any religions.

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I've noticed that every technioque works. I've tried them all and seen them work!  It's funny that people believe only some fitness styles get results.  It's almost like they are "Religious" about it!

I would call that superstition or dogma. A religion is a dogmatic superstition that spreads from person to person, causing them to behave for the benefit of the religion itself. Maybe it's a matter of degree. Again, the word 'religion' is pretty slippery and hard to define.

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When we try to explain the wortld around us, and deal wiuth our instictive fear of death; we create a religion.  Perhaps religion isn't something completely established, but CULTURE itself??

Here's an interesting idea (something I've been working on for a while now): What if we can interpret the world such that we gain some of the emotional benefits of religion, without embracing the irrationality of it? For example, the idea of death. Most people fear death, which is quite natural. Religions provide an irrational idea, the afterlife, to calm these fears. But another way of handling this fear is to accept it, but reinterpret it. Okay, so I'm going to die one day. But that just means that this life I'm living now is the only one I'm going to live, and so it is that much more precious, and so I'm going to live this life to the fullest extent that I can. Instead of turning a blind eye to reality, we strive to understand it as fully as possible, and to find a successful way to embrace reality without succumbing to fear. We face the Unknown with a sense of wonder, rather than a sense of terror.

Would such an approach to life be a religion, or a philosophy? I gravitate toward the latter.

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SmallChristian
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Ah, as far as religion

Ah, as far as religion playing on our emotions, that makes sense.  I think it also plays on our curiousity.  For those wanting answers to life's greatest questions, etc.  That's a given though.

I would say fear of death is by far the most influencial. What a no-brainer.  After my conscience deconversion I went to the doctor a lot more, but then I realized that my body is good at healing itself!  I mean, I was a big hypochondriac for the first 6 months or so.  

I do want to point out that, the "spritual" feelings one can get through meditation and prayer.  I know first and foremost how powerful those feelings are, and I think those have to do something with being religious.  Those are indeed feelings, but they can make religion seem very real.

 


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SmallChristian wrote:Ah, as

SmallChristian wrote:

Ah, as far as religion playing on our emotions, that makes sense.  I think it also plays on our curiousity.  For those wanting answers to life's greatest questions, etc.  That's a given though.

Another word for curiosity is wonder. Again, we don't need religions to wonder about things, and to have something to satisfy our wonderings. In fact, the scientific mindset provides the best source of answers to our questions.

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I do want to point out that, the "spritual" feelings one can get through meditation and prayer.  I know first and foremost how powerful those feelings are, and I think those have to do something with being religious.  Those are indeed feelings, but they can make religion seem very real.

The word 'spiritual' is unfortunate, because you don't have to believe in 'spirits' to have these experiences. Anyone can meditate. Anyone can feel at one with the universe. I do this all the time, and there's nothing magical or supernatural about it.

Yes, these are feelings. But they are absolutely not the domain of religions. They are universal human capacities that anyone can feel.

This is another sense of the word 'wonder', to feel a great sense of wonder, to feel at peace with the unknown, rather than cowering in fear from it.

You are making the 'argument from wonder', which claims that only religions provide certain feelings. But that is plainly false. All humans have the capacity for wonder. In fact, contemplating our place in this immense universe is a fantastic way to tap into this feeling.

This (and other reasons) is why I call my philosophy 'wonderism'. It steals the last remaining argument from the religious. They can no longer lay claim to wonder. In fact, with greater understanding of the universe, via science, comes a greater sense of wonder. Religious fairy tales are a poor substitute. That's why it is so rare to find scientifically minded atheists who convert to religion. What's the point? When you trap your mind in ignorance, you actually *lose* some sense of wonder.

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spike.barnett
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I'm in support of Moral

I'm in support of Moral Relativism myself. People decide what is wright or wrong based on their own viewpoints.

After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.

The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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SmallChristian
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 natural: Agreed. I can

 natural: Agreed. I can activate that sense of "wonder" without thinking anything religious.  It's hard to explain, but I can pretty much switch it on at a whim.  It's almost like a part of my brain turns on and I feel a sense of peace.  The peace is the same as felt with religion.  This is one of the reasons why I felt that the "presense of God" wasn't proof enough, because I could feel the same without doing anything religious.  The goosebumps, the sense of warmth, the feeling of connection to something powerful outside the self.  That can be replicated by just "turning it on" - as you say, "wonderism" - which is a graet analogy.  I've noticed you'be put a lot of thought in this subject, maybe sound research? It's good stuff.

 

spike:  moral relativism, would that be like subjective morality?  I would agree.  Everyone has their own set of morals, regardless of their religion.  What's very strange is when you submit your own sense of morality to someone or something else.  Cognative dissonance can be a result, as I have experienced.  To tell the truth, my sense of empathy did not reach maturity until I accepted atheism.


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SmallChristian wrote:spike:

SmallChristian wrote:

spike:  moral relativism, would that be like subjective morality?

Yes it would be. I think morals are subjective, that they are relative to the observer. The problems arise when you transgress according someones idea of morality, or your own. When you break someones moral code they are inclined to feel anger or disappointment. When you break yours you are inclined to feel guilt. I think it really is that simple. The complexity comes from the morality itself. What exactly makes an act moral or immoral? Are there gray areas? I think it's different for everyone.

 

After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.

The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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Hambydammit
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 Quote:I haven't seen any

 

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I haven't seen any animal species treat its own kind to extinction, have you?

Well now, if there was such a species, you wouldn't see it, would you?  Being extinct and all...

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These "animals" aren't so immoral after all, well, some can be disgusting (praying mantis anyone?) but they don't seem to destroy themselves or cause doom.

We like to make a big deal out of destroying ourselves, and we might eventually do it, but it won't be because of morals.  It'll be because of destroying our own environment.  There are LOTS of animals that do that.

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The moral code is the core of this debate.  The debate of whether or not religion is needed.

Read THIS.

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I think that somewhere deep inside there is a desire for a religion of some sort.  I think that not only are memes goping around, but that people are wired be religious!  Religious about someihing right?

You have to define your terms very carefully here.  I don't know that there's a defensible claim that we're hardwired to believe in gods.  There is certainly a human tendency to like tight knit cohesive groups, and religions provide a good avenue to that end.

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I've noticed that every technioque works. I've tried them all and seen them work!  It's funny that people believe only some fitness styles get results.  It's almost like they are "Religious" about it!

Now you're getting it!

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When we try to explain the wortld around us, and deal wiuth our instictive fear of death; we create a religion.  Perhaps religion isn't something completely established, but CULTURE itself??

Be careful with poetic language.  It'll get you in trouble really fast.  If you define religion broadly enough, sure, you can make culture and religion equal.  To do that, you're going to have to ignore what religion actually means to 99% of the population.

 

 

 

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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SmallChristian
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 I'm loving this

 I'm loving this discussion! Although I think the name of this topic is a little inaccurate, because it's so much more broad.

I want to touch base on religion, and how I think people are wired for religion.  First I don't think it's religion itself that this mechanism I am describing is what we are exactly wired for!  I do want to say that religion is a result of this mechanism, so in a way, yes we are wired for religion, but we with this mechanism we are wired to unite under one or many causes.

For one, I think people have a tendency to be fanatical about things, just about anything.  You have people that are fanatical about star wars for example, or fanatical about harry potter, and a close friend of mine was for a time fanatical about Trent reznor Sticking out tongue  I myself have never been fanatical about anything with the exception of Christianity (in my days as one of course)

It is something strange, but we as humans can be obsessed and interested in certain ways of life!  Some of us are strict about getting up early, and some of those feel that people who do not get up at 6am everyday are wasting their days away and can almost feel superior to those who sleep in.  Not all, but some.

People have a way to make assumptions about everything.  Just as much as you can be vehement that Jesus is the son of God based on no rationality, you can be vehement that people who do not exercise are missing out and need to convert and joing the gym.  Never mind sports injuries and the fact that many athletes suffer in their later days.  I myself am an athlete, but I don't think its "The way" I just really enjoy it.

People like to cling to ideas, any idea, and because it works for them can say that it is "The Way" or "Righteous" or "Better than anything else"

Some people like to spend money whenever they get it, they never save it, they go around saying that it's "The Way" because you can't carry money with you, or because material posessions are meaningless to them.  They look at those who work hard and save their money or purchase material goods as those who are "Missing out" on the smaller things in life. Things like love or things like having relationships, etc, etc.

Some people, and I am one of them, believe in saving money and living way beneath their means, this is me! I think it's the best thing on earth and it makes me happy.  I for a time thought it would be best for everyone to live ilke me, but I am wrong in this.  A close friend of mine believe it is best to live Right at your means.  He says you only live once so don't bother saving it all, go ahead and spend what you get, just as long as you pay your bills its okay.  I disagree with him, but you see we can both be quite fanatical and stubborn on our approach with money!

It never ceases to amaze me how people tend to be fanatical about Ideas!  AS we are wired to believe our ideas are better or worse, we can also be fanatical about "Getting to the bottom of this" and researching which idea is better and testing them amongst others.  Regardless I think people are wired to hold onto any certain idea and look at contrary ideas as inferior or incorrect.  Is this rational? 

I'm trying to push my point, and my point is that I believe that people will always hold onto certain ways of life.  Another close friend of mine always says she thinks people that hold on to "The Old Ways" are more in touch with reality.  It's her opinion, as she dislikes information technology.  

The old saying, we all have opinions.  At one point we can hold our opinions irrationally, and view them as 100% perfect.  I suppose that reminds me of religion more than anything else.  I think everybody does it, some just do it more than others.

I read an article called "The God Gene" in TIME magazine years ago.  In the article they said they did a survey amongst an X amount of people.  Everyone that was more "Religious" about their beliefs (they surveyed multiple religious ghroups) had similarities in their DNA.  They called this "The God Gene" - I'm being very brief on it, it was a huge article and I can't remember all the details.  I guess some people are more "wired" to believe in irrational things than others. Or perhaps some people are more wired to BE more irrational?