Biggest problem with automakers going out of business is all the jobs that supply them -  then the jobs that are only there because the factories are in town (those factories still in the US - ironically now mostly "Japanese" cars. )

It is not the government's job to coerce businesses into bringing outsourced jobs back to the US and it is not the government's business to bail out failing auto companies. My recommendation: no bailout for failing, unprofitable businesses and let them send jobs overseas if they want to.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why this bothers you so much, Matt.

Are you driving? Did a car factory close up in those parts?

Don't get me wrong. I hate capitalism too, but 'destroyed by any means necessary' means you would have to be willing to do the dirty work yourself. The best way to destroy it is from within and alongside the ranks of the proletariat.

Frankly, the 'working class' doesn't need help from the 'blog and bitch class'. We need people to excel in present capitalist society while espousing the ideology of production for use rather than profit. This means 'production' and 'use' being equal to each other and 'need' being the function.

It's really starting to weigh upon me that in certain instances the enemy of my enemy's cause can be an enemy to mine own.

Because the fact that they make more money by hurting the poor burns me up. I'd like to see them snipered by people that lost their job. The best way would be through force of law - execute the capitalists. Using bombs would work too. I'd love to see a true revolution where all capitalists are executed. Unfortunately I don't have the physical capability or I would do something like setting bombs off in corporate offices and sniper rifle shooting executives. Unfortunately most Americans are fucking stupid and won't at least do like Europeans and have serious restrictions on Capitalism I think that sort of thing is what needs to be done. I'd love to see all business executives executed and anyone who supports Capitalism in the slightest sent to a reeducation camp for 10 years. Any surviving rich capitalists would have to clean shit up from the floor with their tongues while the former poor jeer them on and kick them. With the former way I said any smugglers caught would have both arms and both legs slowly sawed off while vinegar mixed with salt was poured in the wound, their dicks were cut off and they were forced to eat them and then they were hung in a cage to starve to death. We could also have the coast guard patrol and not let any unapproved items imported and have the military guard all ports and all landable beaches away from ports mined. Anyone cuaght selling illegal imports or in possession of such would also be executed in such manner publically. All domestic products or legal imports would need a registration number to prove they were legal. Pevent that.

Realisticly, Darth, there is no way for most people to succed in an extremely unfair system such as Capitalism honestly. The system needs to be destroyed whether via law or violent revolution. Luckilly I have heard some say this present crisis may mean "the end of Capitalism. " We can only hope...

I think that would be a good idea. If they brutalize our officials we drop napalm or nuclear weapons wherever the smugglers are.  I would. I would have long ago tortured to death the factory owners for moving overseas. I also like the idea of strongly increasing the navy and blocking off all but allowed trade in. If enough problems happen in my scenario we also could nuke/napalm where the items are manufactured or torture to death every single member of anyones' family who is known to be involved in smuggling and if we capture them we saw off 1 finger a day, then 1 toe a day, then 1 hand, then 1 foot, than an arm, thaen a  leg, then gouge out an eye cut off genitals, etc 1 per day and pour salt, vinegar and hot sauce mixed into the wound each day on live tv then let them slowly starve. We'd do whatever it takes to make the idea of whatever little money could be made by smuggling punished by such a horrible way (and remember anyone caught owning smuggled items the same way - how hard would it be to trace these antennas by their signal and if isn't an officially registered, non-foreign made one the person using is tortured to death publicly) that it wouldn't be done. Puting into a tree shredder feet first on live tv would also work.

Yes, people should be tortured to death if they ignore the warnings against violating smuggling laws. I meant nuking the place where the smuggled items are produced. Anyone in favor of any free market policies should spend 10 years in a reeducation camp. I think people should be tortured to death for violating anti-free trade policies. Drug dealers can't get more than life in a relatively nice US Prison. If anyone viloating the anti-free trade law had their fingers and toes slowly cut off and under vinegar and salt (and their hands and feet later and then their arms and legs.) That is the most generous I could possibly deal with capitalists. I doubt there'd be so many - especially if everyone had a minimum level of living.

Anyway Libertarianism is a horrible idea, especially for independant people. Death to LIbertarianism!

The amount of ignorance in that comment, however, makes it ridiculously easy to dismiss.  These companies aren't only US companies nor do they just simply operate satellite facilities in other countries for cheap labour.  There are arms, divisions, daughter companies and other auto brands that these companies own.  For instance: Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltmd, Volvo Cars, Mazda, Aston Martin.  These are all owned by Ford Motor Company or are companies in which Ford owns shares.  Ford Motor Company is a multinational corporation that employs a quarter million people internationally.  It isn't feasible for such a company to close factories and 'bring the jobs back' to the US.  Especially when the jobs were never in the US to begin with.

I don't necessarily agree with a bailout, not even what the Government of Canada is being asked for, but why would a proposed stipulation of such a payment be to close foreign operations when these form a significant basis of revenue for the corporation?  Or do the cars produced by Volvo Cars of Sweden make up a such a significant amount of the cars bought by Americans such that they should be manufactured in America by Americans?

Get real.

I'd say a good compromise would be no US company can produce anything in countries that don't have laws about fair labor practices. That means Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia would be OK but not places where they pay pennies per hour.

How exactly do you define 'fair labOur practices', most Europeans would consider American worker practices to be not far of 3rd world. Slave like holiday (its a mininum legal holidays of between 20 and 35 days here)  and sick pay, not being able to afford to be sick due to lack of insurance, extreme hours.

Of course I'm sure most Americans probably think Europeans are a bunch of socialist layabouts but you see the problem 'fair' is highly subjective

Matt, I love you to death, and you know I've always respectfully disagreed with you on this issue, but you come off like a raving nut in this thread. Just saying man.

thank you!  thaaaaank you!

[pointing]

MARXISM!  THIS IS MARXISM OVER HERE!  EVERYBODY!

THIS IS WHAT MARXISM IS!

I know you think it's your Aspergers or whatever that keeps you from meeting people but seriously Matt... these kind of thoughts are just not sane and I don't just mean they aren't in line with the majority - they are ludicrous.  Please don't tell me you seriously mean the only thing that is keeping you from becoming a sniper is your physical inability to do so.

LOL. Does that include sane atheists that are also anti-libertarian socialists?

The one time I will not say 'No true scotsman' to my wife is when she declares that I am not a true redneck. lol.

I'll be slashing the hell out of bills in January. The kids will get Blue Monday money, but my regular bills are getting lowered.

Economic downturn means these people have been counting on me to continue spending what I have or to increase. Soooo, what do I do? The opposite. I have found at least $200 per month in things which my family has agreed are unnecessary. Call it 'piling on'.

If it weren't for the knee then I'd already be one of the 'non-spenders' that the rich are blaming for their troubles. Too much for medical this year.

Interesting how some rich people cry about paying the most in taxes because it's their hard earned money, but when people stop buying their crap they whine about not making as much as last year because consumers are being thrifty.

Nahhh. I don't blame individuals. I blame the system; the ideology. In this system, everyone wants to get richer (poor included) and sometimes it is at 'any means necessary'.

Those people aren't the cause, they are a symptom. Recently, the nicer libertarians have been referencing human nature as a reason for capitalism. Granted, someone had to have made the system, but that is no excuse for the perpetuation of the system.

That's why Paulson wanted to stop the bank bailouts. The banks saw it as an opportunity to get some money to buy each other because of the tax loophole of merger and acquisition that the treasury enabled.

That Bank of America bought Merrill Lynch before the TARP and then got TARP money was no mistake or lucky coincidence. They get the tax break, the company, and the secured capital all together. I guarantee you they are waiting for this recession to ease slightly next year and you'll see them put ML up for sale and use the profits of the sale to pay on the TARP money dividend to the government.

Matt, a few things:

My first (and nicest) comment is that you don't appear to have a coherent idea of what you actually want. At first you claim to want to champion for the poor, but then you claim that you want the U.S. to forcibly steal commodities from poorer countries, annihilating any nation that doesn't surrender it's goods via nuclear weaponry, while giving nothing back to them.

My next comment is that this kind of talk is something that nobody needs to hear nor wants to hear. If you want to go out and kill people, well, I guess that's your problem; we don't need it voiced on the boards, and if you want to be able to continue participating on these board you're going to have to learn how to excercize some self-control. Laying-out in gruesome detail the painful fates you wish upon corporate executives is inappropriate in these forums.

My last (and meanest) comment is that this is the forum of the RRS website; this is not 'MattShizzle's Therapy Couch', 'MattShizzle's Personal Spotlight' or 'MattShizzle's Lone Refuge for Insane Rambling'. If you only visit this website to get attention, via saying outrageous things and making suicide threats, you really need to re-consider your membership here. Frankly, there are many, many people who have lost patience with having to confront another one of your graphic allusions to violence just because you need someone to talk to.

If you constantly need everyone to have MattShizzle on their radar, you may get your wish. But I'm not so sure you'll enjoy the inevitable consequences.

Right there, Matt. Those are the rules that say that.

Matt, I'm being frank and open about this for your own benefit. A fascist would only be interested in making an example out of you and getting rid of you.

The overwhelming consensus, among site moderators, site owners and site users alike, is that it is your behavior - not that of any of the alleged 'power hungry assholes' - that needs to demonstrate a dramatic change, and in no uncertain terms. Compared to what some have discussed in private about what you've written here and elsewhere on the forums, what I've said is rather tepid.

You're free to do as you like. I'm just trying to caution you that you may not enjoy the repurcussions that arise from constantly steering down this road.

That's 2.

I told you in the PM.

We (the mods) are not power hungry assholes. What kind of dumbfuck thinks there is 'power' to simply deleting spam or trying to reason with violently psychotic posters for nothing gained individually or as a whole???

Honestly, Matt. Think about how really fucking dumb that sounds.

What confounds me the most is that you've been here this long and even when you're sane you throw out more fallacies than the theists. Not everything is 'Nazis' and I know who I am despite what you think I'm thinking.

The only thing that could top the MattShizzle obnoxiousness now, in my opinion, is if you called it a 'cult' conspiracy.

Really, Matt?  Are you sure that's what Brian said?   I spoke to both you and Brian after that phone call and I think it was pretty clear at that time that you needed to take it down a notch.  Just chill.  There's more intellectual and convincing ways of making your political points - you'd be taken more seriously too.

Matt, I'm occassionally in the market for some self-improvement:

If my two prior posts in this thread were so nasty, so fascist and so manipulative, would please elaborate on how they came across that way? If you provide some constructive criticism, perhaps I'll learn to incorporate that into future mediations.

See, Matt? A cooler head prevails.

Just try to keep that in mind.

(It's something I have to work-on myself)

I guess that means that the Nazis and Hitler weren’t threatening the Jews, after all, they were just saying what the law should be, and then enforcing the law. Sorry, but when someone says that it should not only be allowed but required that people torture you to death for something, that’s a threat, plain and simple. The fact that the law says that if you kill someone you go to prison, that’s a threat. The Christian ‘believe or burn’ idea, that’s a threat. Otherwise I guess Christian Fundamentalists saying Atheists don’t have a right to live or should just shut up and not be allowed to speak and trying to make it the law aren’t threatening us at all. After all, they’re just saying what the law should be, not actually threatening to do that to us.

Pardon me if I find that suspect.
Scratch that, Pardon me if I find that retarded.

Frankly Matt, your Doublethink is starting to become intriguing. You openly claim that people should not be allowed to own guns, and yet want Business owners to be sniped by the people they lay off. You claim murder is wrong, yet prescribe the most abominable tortures, ultimately ending in death, and in some cases the use of nuclear warfare against low level smugglers, because that wouldn’t kill the planet, and all without ever being able to put together a reasonably coherent argument for why the ‘Capitalist Scum’ deserve this treatment.
Reconcile these.

You have an interesting house of cards of a belief system, so cunningly built in the middle of a marsh. Tell me, how do you (you here meaning your hypothetical dystopia) intend to pay for the blockade and the mines you so desperately want to line our border with? Explain to me how closing our borders to the imports that allow us to have cheap food and cars and clothing and everything will not collapse the economy, rend the country in twain, and lead to mass poverty hunger and half the population dying while the other half gets to live in whatever dictatorships rise up from the ashes and become veritable lepers on the edge of the world.

Your comparison of child molesters to corporate executives is utterly retarded. For starters, children are too young to know better, and you actually can decide to not serve the capitalists. It’s pretty easy, provided you actually have some marketable talent. You whine and whine about Capitalists ‘exploiting’ the workers of the world, but here’s the thing; The Capitalists wouldn’t be able to ‘exploit’ them without their consent at some level. Hate to break it to you, but the Capitalists actually don’t have some secret Gestapo to enforce their will, they enforce it quite well enough simply by playing on the people’s desires. If you don’t like that, it’s not the Capitalists that are who you should be directing your anger at, but the stupid workers of the world who cannot realize what is going on right in front of them.

By the way, I’m still waiting for responses on my last three posts to you.

Furthermore, I consider your comments to be threats, explain how I am a ‘douchebag’.

You are not advocating justice, you are advocating giving the slaves the whips and letting them play at being the masters.

And finally, I’m sorry if this sounds mean, but once someone starts advocating what you are advocating, the gloves come off and I become a mean person.

Good Day Sir.

The power to "warn" someone or to edit threads. Siseph is an asshat that obviously has a problem with me and is stalking me thorughout the site. Explain how anyone can function in society nowadays without bowing down to the capitalists? People need to eat. Capitalists should be treated as the most vile creatures who ever crawled upon the surface of the Earth and who's utter annihalation would be a great benefit to all mankind.

Matt, you don't notice a trend here that has a common denominator? Anyone who ever disagrees with you or even so much as politely asks you to change your tone is an 'asshat who has problems with you'. When a vast majority of the users here claim that they have a problem with content like what you've showcased here, do you think perhaps that - rather than indicating that everyone around you is a jerk - this may be a pretty good indicator, in fact, that there is a problem with what you've posted?

Just take a small step back and think about that for a moment.