Pathetic and disgusting: The elections weren't all about progress.

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Pathetic and disgusting: The elections weren't all about progress.

"Proposition 8" in California passed. A change to the state constitution based on nothing other than pure bigotry and hate, conceived by religious jackasses and supported by such bottom feeders as Howard Ahmanson, Jr. (who bankrolls the Discovery Institute) and John Templeton.

Other, similar measures passed in Arizona (ban gay marriage), Arkansas (ban gay adoption), and Florida (ban gay marriage).

People are pathetic.

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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It passed? 

It passed?

 

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Prop 8 appears headed for

Prop 8 appears headed for victory

I have a hard time understanding who gets hurt in allowing same sex marriage.

-Companies opening up more healthcare benefits ?

-Parents being forced to explain sex to their children?

It is sad.

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Renee Obsidianwords wrote:I

Renee Obsidianwords wrote:


I have a hard time understanding who gets hurt in allowing same sex marriage.

-Companies opening up more healthcare benefits ?

-Parents being forced to explain sex to their children?

Fundies insecure about their own sexuality.

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Sad it would happen in a

Sad it would happen in a more progressive state like California. Fucking bigots. Ever notice the assholes that bitch about it use the same arguments that were used 40 years ago against interracial marriage?

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The biggest problem that I

The biggest problem that I saw in California was that people didnt understand the proposition, either that or they did and are just lying to cover up their hate.

A guy I work with said he voted yes on 8 saying "I dont mind them getting married and stuff, but I dont think they should be teaching kids about gay marriage in schools"

I know! What the fuck does that have to do with Prop H8?  Just the deceptive advertising that managed to snag plenty of dumbass voters who didn't realize that voting yes on 8 was just a vote to restrict human rights... nothing else.

Scum.


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Despite Prop 8 being heavily

Despite Prop 8 being heavily funded by the Mormon church Christians will still insist that they aren't pushing their beliefs upon anyone and are still pro-marriage.  Since when has the government, en masse, forced divorce upon people?

With hope Obama will be able to choose many Supreme Court Justices that will stand with the Constitution and legalize gay marriage.  If I had a god to pray to I'd pray that Scalia and Thomas would retire from the Supreme Court.


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i really cannot express my

i really cannot express my rage.  seriously.

but i will try.

for those of you on this site who are irritated by my disregard of capital letters, your day has come.

AND PEOPLE HAVE THE FUCKING GALL TO ASK ME WHY I'M A FUCKING REVOLUTIONARY????  HOW CAN YOU NOT BE???  WHATEVER YOUR SOCIO-ECONOMIC VIEWS, HOW CAN ANY PERSON WITH A

!!!!!!!WORKING FUCKING BRAIN!!!!!!!

ACTUALLY SUPPORT THE PHILISTINE, BIGOTED, BOURGEOIS STATUS QUO???

TELL ME PLEASE!

!!!!CHRISTIANS!!!!

GET YOUR FUCKING 5,000 YEAR-OLD BOOK OF RAPE AND GENOCIDE OUT OF MY GODDAMN GOVERNMENT, YOU SHIT-EATING, SELF-RIGHTEOUS LUMPS OF PIG VOMIT!!!!

there.  now i'm almost crying.  and i'm not even gay.

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I voted No on it and had to

I voted No on it and had to explain to my wife what it was because of the way it was worded. She thought that a YES vote was in support of gay marriage.

The arguments for it are pathetic. Just because a majority of the people voted for it, that doesn't make it any less discriminatory.


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It sickens me too that we've

It sickens me too that we've come to this. This is why democracy does not work. We're a republic where we are all supposed to have EQUAL rights and not whatever the majority determines to be EQUAL. The judges here determined correctly that everyone has equal protection under the law and the population here spit on the judges ruling.

If we are going to live under this type of religious persecution then I suggest we make divorce illegal to protect the sanctity of traditional marriage. I hope someone puts this on the ballot next election year and outlaws divorce under all circumstances except infidelity like the bible prescribes.

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I feel so sad and enraged.

I feel so sad and enraged. Forgive me Americans, but I simply don't understand how this happends in a country that touts the word freedom at a dime a dozen. South Africa may have among the highest murder rates,but at least we were among the first to legalize gay marriage.

 

I'm honestly left blank at what these people think when they do these things. The 'great' establishment of marriage isn't going to implode if gays get married. Marriage isn't a real person, it doesn't know who it's joining together. As long as you have two people who want to be togther, christians precious marriage is still marriage. 

I have to agree with Matt.These people probably would have voted against inter racial marriages. "Why if we let them niggers marry white people marry, ya'll know what'll happen next right? People will marry their dogs!!!'

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Renee Obsidianwords

Renee Obsidianwords wrote:
-Companies opening up more healthcare benefits ?

Aren't they already doing that?  At least here in Australia most healthcare companies now cover snakeoil and quacks (read: accupuncture, homeopathic medicines etc).  It sickens me when I see the ads promoting these new "incentives".

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The fucking problem is

The fucking problem is people who even do vote for the major candidates are to lazy, to busy and just plain uninformed, due in large part to rich controlled media of virtually LITTLE NEWS, about the importance of knowing and voting on the propositions and local candidates on the ballot. Damn sad it is.

Obama won easily here in California, which would seem to go against Prop 8 winning, and so what does that tell us?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/70-of-african-a.html

California's black and Latino voters, who turned out in droves for Barack Obama, also provided key support in favor of the state's same-sex marriage ban. Seven in 10 black voters backed a successful ballot measure to overturn the California Supreme Court's May decision allowing same-sex marriage, according to exit polls for The Associated Press.

    Wow, dumb fuck me, I wouldn't have guessed 70% ... But hey, Cal. ethnic groups, still makes my point ....

http://encarta.msn.com/fact_701505897/california_facts_and_figures.html

Ethnic groups
Whites 59.5 percent (2000)
 
 
Asians 10.9 percent (2000)
 
 
Blacks 6.7 percent (2000)
 
 
Native Americans 1 percent (2000)
 
 
Native Hawaiians and other Pacific Islanders 0.3 percent (2000)
 
 
Mixed heritage or not reporting 21.5 percent (2000)
 
 
Hispanics (of any race) 32.4 percent (2000)

 


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The fucking problem is

  dp


 


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The fucking problem is

dp, format night mere ???


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Like I said in the other

Like I said in the other thread about this, the irony to minority support of this proposition being the historical racism of the Mormon Church. This should disabuse at least a few people of the conceit that history and facts are potent forces in the general culture. In reality, it's a fearful thirst for tribal cohesion and a hypothetically strict codified morality that seem to motivate people to act.

In other words, it doesn't matter as long as there's enough water under the bridge, and a plausible narrative.

Even the Governator is against it, and the culture is shifting thanks to the Obama Effect, so I'm fairly confident it will get reversed. It has to: California has to be an example for the rest of the US.


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I'm confident too magilum,

I'm confident too magilum, enough to say eventually even world wide ... but that is a long long way off ... if earth and the cosmic forces will allow, it will be.


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JillSwift wrote:"Proposition

JillSwift wrote:

"Proposition 8" in California passed. A change to the state constitution based on nothing other than pure bigotry and hate, conceived by religious jackasses and supported by such bottom feeders as Howard Ahmanson, Jr. (who bankrolls the Discovery Institute) and John Templeton.

Other, similar measures passed in Arizona (ban gay marriage), Arkansas (ban gay adoption), and Florida (ban gay marriage).

People are pathetic.

So what is your solution? A politically correct fascist state? It is that kind of short term thinking that destroys freedom. Slavery didn't end over night and if it were not for the Constitution gays wouldn't have even gotten this far. STOP THINKING SHORT TERM

When you look at how gays were treated 20 years ago compared to today it is BECAUSE of our free market and our Constitution that eventually they will win.

Movements do not happen overnight and gays have the same Constitution to use against this bigotry, not by institutionalizing censorship but by using the same tools the other side uses.

Losing one battle does not mean you have lost the war. Compared to the past gays have it far better in our history now then they ever did. You will make it and society will grow and equality will win in the end. But do not shoot yourself in the foot by changing the very tools that allowed you to get this far. It takes time.

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Brian37 wrote:So what is

Brian37 wrote:
So what is your solution? A politically correct fascist state? It is that kind of short term thinking that destroys freedom. Slavery didn't end over night and if it were not for the Constitution gays wouldn't have even gotten this far. STOP THINKING SHORT TERM

When you look at how gays were treated 20 years ago compared to today it is BECAUSE of our free market and our Constitution that eventually they will win.

Movements do not happen overnight and gays have the same Constitution to use against this bigotry, not by institutionalizing censorship but by using the same tools the other side uses.

Losing one battle does not mean you have lost the war. Compared to the past gays have it far better in our history now then they ever did. You will make it and society will grow and equality will win in the end. But do not shoot yourself in the foot by changing the very tools that allowed you to get this far. It takes time.

Bite me, Brian. I made no suggestions of any sort. I'm just bugged at people for this backslide.

 

EDIT: Only Cali_Athiest said "democracy doesn't work". The rest of us are venting about the backslide or discussing it. Part of how the zeitgeist gets changed.

Why not aim your rant at Cali_Atheist, Brian? he's the one who has actually suggested changing the system.

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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I get so pissed at people

I get so pissed at people who want to shoot themselves in the foot because they want to take their detractors right to dissent away from them NOT REALIZING THAT THEY OUTNUMBER YOU. Why would you hand them absolute rule? If you take away their right to dissent, you are handing them absolute rule, and if you do that since they outnumber you you will lose!

OUR Constitution is there for everyone, and it will never produce a perfect society, but what it does do is allow oportunity NOT A GARUNTEE but oportunity for improvement.

That same right to vote, that same right to free speech is what allowed Ellen to come out on national TV. It is the same right that allowed them to appeal to the Ca Supreme Court that initially allowed gay marriage. The voters have spoken, but if you look at the margin, if you keep raising your voices, that margin will not only shrink, but reverse in your favor. And if the Court is consistant, and this is the beauty of our Constitution, IT ALLOWS FOR THE COURTS TO SIDE WITH THE MINORITY DISPITE WHAT THE VOTERS MAY WANT.

It is the same Court system that said to a white male Christian majority that did not want women to vote, the court said, "Dispite what you want majority, you cannot deny women rights"

GAYS and even atheists do themselves a disservice by demanding the silence of detractors rather than compete in the same system of free speech and Constitution that their detractors do.

DONT DEMAND SILENCE, complete by raising your voices and leading by example by living better than the bigots that dont like you. BUT DO NOT DICTATE TO THEM.

DO NOT HAND YOUR ENEMIES ABSOLUTE RULE when they outnumber you.

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Quote:Whites 59.5

Quote:

Whites 59.5 percent (2000)
 
 
Asians 10.9 percent (2000)
 
 
Blacks 6.7 percent (2000)
 
 
Native Americans 1 percent (2000)
 
 
Native Hawaiians and other Pacific Islanders 0.3 percent (2000)
 
 
Mixed heritage or not reporting 21.5 percent (2000)
 
 
Hispanics (of any race) 32.4 percent (2000)

 

According to this table, if you lined up a sample of 100 Californians, 132 of them would belong to one of the above ethnic groups.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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You shouldn't have added the

You shouldn't have added the last line - notice Hispanics can be any race.


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Brian37 wrote:A politically

Brian37 wrote:

A politically correct fascist state?

"politically correct fascist" is an oxymoron.  political correctness, right or wrong, is a progressive phenomenon, and fascism is essentially reactionary. 

Brian37 wrote:

Movements do not happen overnight and gays have the same Constitution to use against this bigotry, not by institutionalizing censorship but by using the same tools the other side uses.

who's proposing censorship?  censorship is offensive and the gays in CA have been forced into a defensive position, in having one of the freedoms they have already won after a long, hard battle threatened.  if there's any fascism to be found in this situation, it's with the religious bigots.

Brian37 wrote:

Losing one battle does not mean you have lost the war. Compared to the past gays have it far better in our history now then they ever did. You will make it and society will grow and equality will win in the end. But do not shoot yourself in the foot by changing the very tools that allowed you to get this far. It takes time.

yes, yes, let's all wait.  let's all be satisfied and wait, the clarion call not only of bourgeois liberalism but stalinism as well.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


Brian37
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iwbiek wrote:Brian37 wrote:A

iwbiek wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

A politically correct fascist state?

"politically correct fascist" is an oxymoron.  political correctness, right or wrong, is a progressive phenomenon, and fascism is essentially reactionary. 

Brian37 wrote:

Movements do not happen overnight and gays have the same Constitution to use against this bigotry, not by institutionalizing censorship but by using the same tools the other side uses.




 

who's proposing censorship?  censorship is offensive and the gays in CA have been forced into a defensive position, in having one of the freedoms they have already won after a long, hard battle threatened.  if there's any fascism to be found in this situation, it's with the religious bigots.

Brian37 wrote:

Losing one battle does not mean you have lost the war. Compared to the past gays have it far better in our history now then they ever did. You will make it and society will grow and equality will win in the end. But do not shoot yourself in the foot by changing the very tools that allowed you to get this far. It takes time.

yes, yes, let's all wait.  let's all be satisfied and wait, the clarion call not only of bourgeois liberalism but stalinism as well.

And you wouldn't be a fascist if you outlawed their speech? You assume that athesits are a higher species of human, we are not. Your fight fire with fire is exactly what perpetuates human missery. So we become an atheist majority? What do we do, exicute anyone who speeks ill of gays or atheists?

Pot meet kettle. Why not gas those fundies like Hitler did with the Jews? After all, they all must be evil and want to gas us too.

If you want to shred the very Constitution that gives you the right to call them bigots, you are a complete fool. You would be giving the fascists exactly what they want, and again, THEY OUTNUMBER YOU!

You are an idiot and have no clue the damage you would do to your own freedom by not protecting dissent.

Go have your revolution Castro, I doubt you'll get far. I'll use the Constitution for my revolution.

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Native Americans have a

Native Americans have a right to bitch. Blacks have a right to bitch. Women had a right to bitch. So do gays and atheists.

But what would you suggest we do? You want a revolution? Ok, you get your revolution.....lets say. Do we imprison every priest or publicly exicute them?

How about their children? I am sure you can explain to them that you locked up or exicuted their parents because they spoke ill of you? You sound like the atheist version of the Church of the dark ages. I'm sure they'll grow up loving you, but you can fix that with a "re-education camp" to make them a clone of you.

FUCK YOU and your political correctness. And you will stand apposed to me if you ever try to destroy our Constitution. You lack the same empathy that they do.

You want to win, you dont do it by becoming what you say you hate.

 

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Where in this thread has

Where in this thread has ANYONE advocated getting rid of the constitution??? By the way it wasn't the supreme court that gave women the right to vote - it was an ammendment to the constitution.

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Brian37 wrote:What do we do,

Brian37 wrote:

What do we do, exicute anyone who speeks ill of gays or atheists?

we don't execute anyone.  we make gay marriage a constitutional right.  i think that's fair.

Brian37 wrote:

Pot meet kettle. Why not gas those fundies like Hitler did with the Jews? After all, they all must be evil and want to gas us too.

i say gays have a right to defend the victories they've won in california, regardless of WHO OUTNUMBERS THEM or whatever, and suddenly i want to gas fundies.  i don't want to gas fundies.  i just want their religious opinions to stop influencing policy and, as i just said, a constitutional amendment would go a long way.  but that will never happen unless gays demand more and demand it NOW.  it took both lincoln and john brown to end slavery.  btw, YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTION, SURPRISE SURPRISE.  who proposed censorship???  who proposed coercive measures???  it should be a fairly easy task to show me that with copy and paste, thanks.

Brian37 wrote:

If you want to shred the very Constitution that gives you the right to call them bigots, you are a complete fool.

actually, i do want to shred the american constitution, but that has nothing to do with gay rights. 

Brian37 wrote:

You are an idiot and have no clue the damage you would do to your own freedom by not protecting dissent.

WHO THE FUCK TALKED ABOUT NOT PROTECTING DISSENT, BESIDES YOU???  maybe i just missed it...  somebody help me out???

Brian37 wrote:

Go have your revolution Castro, I doubt you'll get far. I'll use the Constitution for my revolution.

so now i'm a fidelista?  you're real fuckin' original, asswipe, and your rhetoric is half-baked at best.  you'll "use the constitution" for your "revolution"?  what the fuck does that even mean?  you do know that's a contradiction in terms, right?  before you start throwing around political buzzwords like "fascist" and "revolution," try finding out exactly what they mean.  otherwise, you sound like bill o'fuckwit.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
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MattShizzle wrote:Where in

MattShizzle wrote:

Where in this thread has ANYONE advocated getting rid of the constitution??? By the way it wasn't the supreme court that gave women the right to vote - it was an ammendment to the constitution.

Thank you for correcting that, for some reason I always though that the Supreme Court decided that.

"to petition the government for a redress of grievance" has lead the Supreme Court to side with dissent in spite of the majority. But thanks for correcting that error for me.

No, I am not accusing anyone, I am warning people how far it can and will be taken if we don't protect dissent. So I am merely thinking steps ahead.

We have an open market, including that of ideas, even those that offend us. Our country has always been a work in progress and for those who shout "revolution" now seem to have tunnel vision and our growing diversity is evolving and evolution takes time.

I am used to the hate spewed at me, I don't like it one bit, but I am not going to live under laws that say that my detractors cant say hatefull things, because I also want the ability to say things, even if not hatefull, no matter how I put it, will be precieved as such and the only way to protect my rights, is to protect theirs as well.

Laws on taboos are a bad idea and usually end up hurting the people that put them in place.

 

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Brian37 wrote:But what would

Brian37 wrote:

But what would you suggest we do? You want a revolution? Ok, you get your revolution.....lets say. Do we imprison every priest or publicly exicute them?

where are you getting this fucking shit from?  references, please, for the convenience of all of us.

Brian37 wrote:

I am sure you can explain to them that you locked up or exicuted their parents because they spoke ill of you?

ditto above.

Brian37 wrote:
 

You sound like the atheist version of the Church of the dark ages.

really?  where exactly do i sound like this?

Brian37 wrote:

FUCK YOU and your political correctness.

and fuck you for being a nutjob and wasting my time with your paranoid fucking delusions.

Brian37 wrote:

And you will stand apposed to me if you ever try to destroy our Constitution.

i'll take my chances.  and if you're going to lambast people, learn to fuckin' spell. 

Brian37 wrote:

You want to win, you dont do it by becoming what you say you hate.

thanks for the tip, yoda.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

What do we do, exicute anyone who speeks ill of gays or atheists?

we don't execute anyone.  we make gay marriage a constitutional right.  i think that's fair.

Brian37 wrote:

Pot meet kettle. Why not gas those fundies like Hitler did with the Jews? After all, they all must be evil and want to gas us too.

i say gays have a right to defend the victories they've won in california, regardless of WHO OUTNUMBERS THEM or whatever, and suddenly i want to gas fundies.  i don't want to gas fundies.  i just want their religious opinions to stop influencing policy and, as i just said, a constitutional amendment would go a long way.  but that will never happen unless gays demand more and demand it NOW.  it took both lincoln and john brown to end slavery.  btw, YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTION, SURPRISE SURPRISE.  who proposed censorship???  who proposed coercive measures???  it should be a fairly easy task to show me that with copy and paste, thanks.

Brian37 wrote:

If you want to shred the very Constitution that gives you the right to call them bigots, you are a complete fool.

actually, i do want to shred the american constitution, but that has nothing to do with gay rights. 

Brian37 wrote:

You are an idiot and have no clue the damage you would do to your own freedom by not protecting dissent.

WHO THE FUCK TALKED ABOUT NOT PROTECTING DISSENT, BESIDES YOU???  maybe i just missed it...  somebody help me out???

Brian37 wrote:

Go have your revolution Castro, I doubt you'll get far. I'll use the Constitution for my revolution.

so now i'm a fidelista?  you're real fuckin' original, asswipe, and your rhetoric is half-baked at best.  you'll "use the constitution" for your "revolution"?  what the fuck does that even mean?  you do know that's a contradiction in terms, right?  before you start throwing around political buzzwords like "fascist" and "revolution," try finding out exactly what they mean.  otherwise, you sound like bill o'fuckwit.

 

Quote:
actually, i do want to shred the american constitution, but that has nothing to do with gay rights.


FUCK YOU THEN, I guess we stand apposed. Good luck Castro, I doubt you get far, and you certainly wont get my help.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:FUCK YOU THEN,

Brian37 wrote:

FUCK YOU THEN, I guess we stand apposed.

somebody please define "apposed" for me.

i don't know why we have to stand "apposed," considering i never said any of the shit you accused me of saying.  other than wanting to shred the constitution, but that's off-topic.

Brian37 wrote:
 

Good luck Castro, I doubt you get far, and you certainly wont get my help.

you're like a broken fucking record.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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iwbiek wrote:i really cannot

iwbiek wrote:

i really cannot express my rage.  seriously.

but i will try.

for those of you on this site who are irritated by my disregard of capital letters, your day has come.

AND PEOPLE HAVE THE FUCKING GALL TO ASK ME WHY I'M A FUCKING REVOLUTIONARY????  HOW CAN YOU NOT BE???  WHATEVER YOUR SOCIO-ECONOMIC VIEWS, HOW CAN ANY PERSON WITH A

!!!!!!!WORKING FUCKING BRAIN!!!!!!!

ACTUALLY SUPPORT THE PHILISTINE, BIGOTED, BOURGEOIS STATUS QUO???

TELL ME PLEASE!

!!!!CHRISTIANS!!!!

GET YOUR FUCKING 5,000 YEAR-OLD BOOK OF RAPE AND GENOCIDE OUT OF MY GODDAMN GOVERNMENT, YOU SHIT-EATING, SELF-RIGHTEOUS LUMPS OF PIG VOMIT!!!!

there.  now i'm almost crying.  and i'm not even gay.

Here is you:

MAYBE IF I AM JUST AS HATEFULL AS THEY ARE I CAN WORK UP THE NERVE TO GUT THEM FACE TO FACE WITH A BOIE KNIFE IN FRONT OF THEIR CRYING CHILDREN AND THEN GUT THEM TOO!

But you are not a fascist....no.....I think you are just another utopian nut who thinks "if only the world would suck my dick".

I have been proven wrong, even atheists can be ashole dictators. Good luck with that opression, fortunatly for compassionate people, you are losing.

You capitalized all that hate just like Hitler shouted how bad the Jews are. Just like Bin Ladin inspired Muslims to slam planes into buidings, but yet atheists who claim they are above all that forget that they are subject to the same human emotions all humans are.

READ WHAT YOU WROTE....you sound just as genocidal as any dictator or theocrat you say you hate. BTW DUMBASS, I am an atheist, but that doesn't mean I agree with all atheists nor does it mean I suck up to Christianity.

So don't pull that Uncle Tom crap with me. Grow the fuck up and realize that you, just like they, are one of 6 billion people.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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JillSwift wrote:Brian37

JillSwift wrote:

Brian37 wrote:
So what is your solution? A politically correct fascist state? It is that kind of short term thinking that destroys freedom. Slavery didn't end over night and if it were not for the Constitution gays wouldn't have even gotten this far. STOP THINKING SHORT TERM

When you look at how gays were treated 20 years ago compared to today it is BECAUSE of our free market and our Constitution that eventually they will win.

Movements do not happen overnight and gays have the same Constitution to use against this bigotry, not by institutionalizing censorship but by using the same tools the other side uses.

Losing one battle does not mean you have lost the war. Compared to the past gays have it far better in our history now then they ever did. You will make it and society will grow and equality will win in the end. But do not shoot yourself in the foot by changing the very tools that allowed you to get this far. It takes time.

Bite me, Brian. I made no suggestions of any sort. I'm just bugged at people for this backslide.

 

EDIT: Only Cali_Athiest said "democracy doesn't work". The rest of us are venting about the backslide or discussing it. Part of how the zeitgeist gets changed.

Why not aim your rant at Cali_Atheist, Brian? he's the one who has actually suggested changing the system.

Sorry for the collateral damage. I sometimes get on auto pilot, thanks for clearing that up. I do get an itchy trigger finger when people suggest fucking with the Constitution. Once again, sorry for the missfire, even I am human.

I'll let you punch me in the face, a freebee.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:iwbiek wrote:i

Brian37 wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

i really cannot express my rage.  seriously.

but i will try.

for those of you on this site who are irritated by my disregard of capital letters, your day has come.

AND PEOPLE HAVE THE FUCKING GALL TO ASK ME WHY I'M A FUCKING REVOLUTIONARY????  HOW CAN YOU NOT BE???  WHATEVER YOUR SOCIO-ECONOMIC VIEWS, HOW CAN ANY PERSON WITH A

!!!!!!!WORKING FUCKING BRAIN!!!!!!!

ACTUALLY SUPPORT THE PHILISTINE, BIGOTED, BOURGEOIS STATUS QUO???

TELL ME PLEASE!

!!!!CHRISTIANS!!!!

GET YOUR FUCKING 5,000 YEAR-OLD BOOK OF RAPE AND GENOCIDE OUT OF MY GODDAMN GOVERNMENT, YOU SHIT-EATING, SELF-RIGHTEOUS LUMPS OF PIG VOMIT!!!!

there.  now i'm almost crying.  and i'm not even gay.

Here is you:

MAYBE IF I AM JUST AS HATEFULL AS THEY ARE I CAN WORK UP THE NERVE TO GUT THEM FACE TO FACE WITH A BOIE KNIFE IN FRONT OF THEIR CRYING CHILDREN AND THEN GUT THEM TOO!

But you are not a fascist....no.....I think you are just another utopian nut who thinks "if only the world would suck my dick".

I have been proven wrong, even atheists can be ashole dictators. Good luck with that opression, fortunatly for compassionate people, you are losing.

You capitalized all that hate just like Hitler shouted how bad the Jews are. Just like Bin Ladin inspired Muslims to slam planes into buidings, but yet atheists who claim they are above all that forget that they are subject to the same human emotions all humans are.

READ WHAT YOU WROTE....you sound just as genocidal as any dictator or theocrat you say you hate. BTW DUMBASS, I am an atheist, but that doesn't mean I agree with all atheists nor does it mean I suck up to Christianity.

So don't pull that Uncle Tom crap with me. Grow the fuck up and realize that you, just like they, are one of 6 billion people.

well, i'm READING WHAT I WROTE and i see NOT ONE WORD advocating violence.  i identify myself as a revolutionary, but that doesn't necessarily entail violence.  PLEASE POINT OUT TO ME WHERE I ADVOCATE VIOLENCE AGAINST FUNDAMENTALISTS IN CALIFORNIA WITHOUT YOUR BULLSHIT PARAPHRASING ABOUT "BOIE KNIVES" (btw, it's "bowie" ).

if you can't show me that, THEN FUCK OFF AND TALK TO SOMEBODY ELSE.

and yes, i did write in caps.  it's called venting.  it was a genuine expression of my emotions at the time of writing, not a theoretical or political statement, and i thought that was pretty CLEARLY implied (note the references to "rage," which is not an emotion conducive to rational thought), but next time i'll put it in BIG RED FUCKING LETTERS just in case you're reading.

oh, and how exactly am i "uncle tom"?  seriously, guy, are you really drunk or sixteen fucking years old or what?

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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I am sorry for the

I am sorry for the missunderstanding. I hate the way the vote went too. But, you can look at it as a backslide, or progress. Again, if you think about it, you wouldn't have had even 10% support 50 years ago. The fact that it was a close loss, says that more and more people are comming over to your side.

I hate the fact that "god" was inserted into the pledge and on our money, and it frustrates me to explain to theists who lack an education why not having it there benifits them as well. I may never see it removed in my lifetime, but considering that mistakes have been reversed in the past, and that with the growing access to media all people have, as long as we protect open media, and put in the effort to compete, we can win long term.

Once again, sorry for the missunderstanding. I just get a lip twitch when I think someone wants to tinker with what helps them in the long run.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

i really cannot express my rage.  seriously.

but i will try.

for those of you on this site who are irritated by my disregard of capital letters, your day has come.

AND PEOPLE HAVE THE FUCKING GALL TO ASK ME WHY I'M A FUCKING REVOLUTIONARY????  HOW CAN YOU NOT BE???  WHATEVER YOUR SOCIO-ECONOMIC VIEWS, HOW CAN ANY PERSON WITH A

!!!!!!!WORKING FUCKING BRAIN!!!!!!!

ACTUALLY SUPPORT THE PHILISTINE, BIGOTED, BOURGEOIS STATUS QUO???

TELL ME PLEASE!

!!!!CHRISTIANS!!!!

GET YOUR FUCKING 5,000 YEAR-OLD BOOK OF RAPE AND GENOCIDE OUT OF MY GODDAMN GOVERNMENT, YOU SHIT-EATING, SELF-RIGHTEOUS LUMPS OF PIG VOMIT!!!!

there.  now i'm almost crying.  and i'm not even gay.

Here is you:

MAYBE IF I AM JUST AS HATEFULL AS THEY ARE I CAN WORK UP THE NERVE TO GUT THEM FACE TO FACE WITH A BOIE KNIFE IN FRONT OF THEIR CRYING CHILDREN AND THEN GUT THEM TOO!

But you are not a fascist....no.....I think you are just another utopian nut who thinks "if only the world would suck my dick".

I have been proven wrong, even atheists can be ashole dictators. Good luck with that opression, fortunatly for compassionate people, you are losing.

You capitalized all that hate just like Hitler shouted how bad the Jews are. Just like Bin Ladin inspired Muslims to slam planes into buidings, but yet atheists who claim they are above all that forget that they are subject to the same human emotions all humans are.

READ WHAT YOU WROTE....you sound just as genocidal as any dictator or theocrat you say you hate. BTW DUMBASS, I am an atheist, but that doesn't mean I agree with all atheists nor does it mean I suck up to Christianity.

So don't pull that Uncle Tom crap with me. Grow the fuck up and realize that you, just like they, are one of 6 billion people.

well, i'm READING WHAT I WROTE and i see NOT ONE WORD advocating violence.  i identify myself as a revolutionary, but that doesn't necessarily entail violence.  PLEASE POINT OUT TO ME WHERE I ADVOCATE VIOLENCE AGAINST FUNDAMENTALISTS IN CALIFORNIA WITHOUT YOUR BULLSHIT PARAPHRASING ABOUT "BOIE KNIVES" (btw, it's "bowie" ).

if you can't show me that, THEN FUCK OFF AND TALK TO SOMEBODY ELSE.

and yes, i did write in caps.  it's called venting.  it was a genuine expression of my emotions at the time of writing, not a theoretical or political statement, and i thought that was pretty CLEARLY implied (note the references to "rage," which is not an emotion conducive to rational thought), but next time i'll put it in BIG RED FUCKING LETTERS just in case you're reading.

oh, and how exactly am i "uncle tom"?  seriously, guy, are you really drunk or sixteen fucking years old or what?

Go back and read my post. I said that YOU were accusing some in western society of going with the status qoe. I told you not to call ME an Uncle Tom.

Getting along with Christians DOES NOT incorperate always agreeing with them or never offending them. I merely recognize that I am a human, just like they are and am subject to the same emotions.

If you think I am never pissed at religious people, you are dead wrong. I still in that being pissed, recognize that they eat, shit, fart and want love and a place to live, just like I do.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:Go back and

Brian37 wrote:

Go back and read my post. I said that YOU were accusing some in western society of going with the status qoe. I told you not to call ME an Uncle Tom.

well, actually, you said, "don't pull that uncle tom crap," which is pretty ambiguous, especially since you meant it in the context of something i posted about 2 weeks ago.  i never personally called YOU (or anybody) an "uncle tom," nor accused YOU of going along with the status quo (i wasn't even talking to you until this evening), so if you immediately jump to the defensive position in response to my comments, that says more about you than me.

Brian37 wrote:

Getting along with Christians DOES NOT incorperate always agreeing with them or never offending them. I merely recognize that I am a human, just like they are and am subject to the same emotions.

i fail to see the connection.  if you feel that taking a radical stance on gay rights is passing onesself off as superior to others then so be it, but that's hardly a logically obvious conclusion.

Brian37 wrote:

If you think I am never pissed at religious people, you are dead wrong.

i don't think anything about you, other than that you're straw-manning the shit out of me and it's very irritating.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Go back and read my post. I said that YOU were accusing some in western society of going with the status qoe. I told you not to call ME an Uncle Tom.

well, actually, you said, "don't pull that uncle tom crap," which is pretty ambiguous, especially since you meant it in the context of something i posted about 2 weeks ago.  i never personally called YOU (or anybody) an "uncle tom," nor accused YOU of going along with the status quo (i wasn't even talking to you until this evening), so if you immediately jump to the defensive position in response to my comments, that says more about you than me.

Brian37 wrote:

Getting along with Christians DOES NOT incorperate always agreeing with them or never offending them. I merely recognize that I am a human, just like they are and am subject to the same emotions.

i fail to see the connection.  if you feel that taking a radical stance on gay rights is passing onesself off as superior to others then so be it, but that's hardly a logically obvious conclusion.

Brian37 wrote:

If you think I am never pissed at religious people, you are dead wrong.

i don't think anything about you, other than that you're straw-manning the shit out of me and it's very irritating.

I think you want instant gratification and wont be happy until you are the alpha male 5 seconds from now.

I am not disagreeing with the state of theism in politics. But I think you are a fool to suggest that equality will come by force of oppression. The end result will be resentment and perpetuates once the abused becomes the abuser.

Lose your utopian crap. THAT is what theists do and dictators do.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:But I think

Brian37 wrote:

But I think you are a fool to suggest that equality will come by force of oppression.

WHEN THE FUCK DID I SUGGEST ANYTHING LIKE THAT???

jesus christ, am i taking crazy pills???  do i black out and write shit about oppression and dictatorships without knowing it?  near as i can remember, i suggested a fucking constitutional amendment, and unlike this other shit you pull out of your ass, that you can quote me on!

now, for the last time, PISS OFF!

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

But I think you are a fool to suggest that equality will come by force of oppression.

WHEN THE FUCK DID I SUGGEST ANYTHING LIKE THAT???

jesus christ, am i taking crazy pills???  do i black out and write shit about oppression and dictatorships without knowing it?  near as i can remember, i suggested a fucking constitutional amendment, and unlike this other shit you pull out of your ass, that you can quote me on!

now, for the last time, PISS OFF!

So you are ok with Christians being your neighbor? Even when they believe that you will burn in hell and that you don't deserve to vote?

I agree PISS OFF to you too for NOT recognizing that I agree that bigotry is BAD but tactic is important in combating those you disagree with and it is not all about bludgening them all the time. Which your emotionally reactionary posts seem to convey.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Giving full civil rights to

Giving full civil rights to gay couple is of course a just and decent thing but calling it 'marriage' is extremely bad politics.

Most the countries that now have civil partnerships specificially didnt use the word to allow the politics of the possible to happen.

Couples in the UK now have exactly the same rights as married hetrosexuals. Is it fair that they can't legally use the word marriage of course not but it does not allow civil partershipped? couples to visit each other in hospitala s next of kin , it allows one partner to stay in their house if another dies ie the legally important parts of marriage

Give it a generation and the word 'marriage' will just slip into normal use as people get used to it.

Religious people use the wedge strategy to achieve their aims why shouldnt more intelligent and morally superior people use it to?

 

 

 

 


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In the spirit of using shame

In the spirit of using shame to effect change in the zeitgeist, here's Keith Olbermann:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/27652443#27652443

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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The key is to educate more

The key is to educate more people in personal ethics and our public government, which would mean much more enthusiastic participation, and so to amend as needed the constitution written in a different past. Our constitution was designed to be amended,  and needs our constant attention, to reflect "we the people" of the present day.


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mrjonno wrote:Giving full

mrjonno wrote:

Giving full civil rights to gay couple is of course a just and decent thing but calling it 'marriage' is extremely bad politics.

Bad politics? Perhaps. Socially responsible, and the Right Thing To Do (tm)? Absolutely.

Personally, I think the legal status of "marriage" should be removed. All legal unions should be civil unions. Then folks can have their "marriage ceremonies" and whatnot all they want, and everyone gets the same rights. You could be "married" with no civil union (other than that observed by your state, such as common-law civil unions), have a civil union without a marriage (for those who abhor ceremonies), or both.

That'd shut up the selfish fundamentalist control-freak nutjobs.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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Yes, no distinction of

Yes, no distinction of genders should be made in a union label. That is a personal choice. The only importance is egual rights and child protection.  


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 Quote:actually, i do want

 

Quote:
actually, i do want to shred the american constitution, but that has nothing to do with gay rights.
 

What sections of the constitution do you disagree with? Do you just want to scrub those sections or the whole thing? 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle

butterbattle wrote:

 

Quote:
actually, i do want to shred the american constitution, but that has nothing to do with gay rights.
 

What sections of the constitution do you disagree with? Do you just want to scrub those sections or the whole thing? 

 

this is not really the place to discuss my issues with the constitution in detail, but essentially my problem is the altering of jefferson's "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" in the declaration to "life, liberty, and property" in the constitution.  please, i won't get into a debate on that in this thread, as that would be serious hijacking (i already said my problem has nothing to do with gay rights).  as the whole american system is based on protection of private property, in my estimation the whole constitution would need to be overhauled.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
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nigelTheBold wrote:mrjonno

nigelTheBold wrote:

mrjonno wrote:

Giving full civil rights to gay couple is of course a just and decent thing but calling it 'marriage' is extremely bad politics.

Bad politics? Perhaps. Socially responsible, and the Right Thing To Do (tm)? Absolutely.

Personally, I think the legal status of "marriage" should be removed. All legal unions should be civil unions. Then folks can have their "marriage ceremonies" and whatnot all they want, and everyone gets the same rights. You could be "married" with no civil union (other than that observed by your state, such as common-law civil unions), have a civil union without a marriage (for those who abhor ceremonies), or both.

That'd shut up the selfish fundamentalist control-freak nutjobs.

 

Intelligent politics isnt about standing on a platform of I want to do 10 good things and not getting elected and hence doing none of them.

Its about saying I will say do 5 good things this time and actually acheieve it (then try again later to get the other 5)

That is what i mean its not clever to use the word 'marriage' when you can give fellow citizens 90% of what they want/deserve but calling it a civil partnership.

I dont know what its like in the US but the vast majority of marriages in the UK are civil and have no religious involvement (significant minority do of course like a nice country church nothing to do with jesus of of course)

 

 


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JillSwift wrote:In the

JillSwift wrote:

In the spirit of using shame to effect change in the zeitgeist, here's Keith Olbermann:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/27652443#27652443

I stumbled that earlier and it left me with a lump in my throat, you can hear his voice cracking and shaking in places. I'm straight and live in the UK but this news left me so sad.


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On a good note, the Florida

On a good note, the Florida one banning gay adoption was declared unconstitutional.

Story_Here.

 

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iwbiek wrote: HOW CAN ANY

iwbiek wrote:

 HOW CAN ANY PERSON WITH A

!!!!!!!WORKING FUCKING BRAIN!!!!!!!

ACTUALLY SUPPORT THE PHILISTINE, BIGOTED, BOURGEOIS STATUS QUO???

TELL ME PLEASE!

Oh, I don't know, maybe because it is better than:

STARVING TO DEATH BECAUSE THERE ARE CONSTANT FOOD SHORTAGES BECAUSE LITTLE FOOD IS PRODUCED AFTER THE COMMIES DECIDE TO PAY EVERYONE ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY NEED INSTEAD OF WHAT THEY PRODUCE

or maybe it could be better than

BEING BUTCHERED TO DEATH BY AN ANGRY RIOTOUS COMMUNIST MOB BENT ON STEALING AND DESTROYING ALL ONE'S HARD EARNED WEALTH.

so most sane people will choose religious society over a communist one.

 

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca