When people say we cant.

Brian37
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When people say we cant.

If there is any becon that mesures an American, it is not the label they proclaim, but their individuality. E-Pluribus Unum was defended yesterday and people rejected the fearmongering and dogmatism of the right wing.

BUT, we as a nation never should have had a history of firsts. Blacks never should have been slaves, women never should have been denied the right to vote. "Firsts" exist because of fear. When WE get over labels and look at individuals as such, the word "first" will never needlessly be put in front of someone who was qualified in any case.

I am proud of my country but Obama doesn't get a pass because he is a "first". If in 4 years things don't improve or get worse, our duty as citizens is not to vote based on color of skin or what someone has between their legs, or weither they are Christian, Jewish or atheist. WE should vote merely for the PERSON we think will do the best job, and then we can finaly retire the needless word "first".

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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My point is that when

My point is that when atheists complain that we will not be heard I cant help but think how easy our path has been in the short 7 years I have been on line. When I first got on line, most media ignored us. Now we have best selling authors and Hitchens is constantly being invited on political shows as a pundit.

It is because of the struggle of blacks, women and gays that our path is that much easyer. We don't see it now, but because of the Constitution all we have to do is raise our voices.

So when you say we will never have an atheist president, remember that blacks thought the same at one point too. WE CAN.

The beauty of our government is that WE all can compete and that includes politics. We have a Muslim a Jew AND an atheist in our Congress. So let this election serve as notice not to think short term. It took women, blacks and gays hundreds of years to be accepted and we wont be accepted overnight either. But they made it much easyer for us and we have their brave movenments to thank and to motivate us to do more.

I may never see an atheist president in my time, but with effort we can change that for future generations.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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atheist president.

 

   I have posted this  line before, read it carefully;   Obama 'chose' to become a  christian likely on the same day he chose  to run for political office.  

   Obama knew he could not get elected as an atheist;  I am not claiming I know what goes on inside his head on the god issue, but I am willing to bet that Obama is the closest you will have to an atheist president,   enjoy while it lasts.

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Jeffrick wrote:    I have

Jeffrick wrote:

 

   I have posted this  line before, read it carefully;   Obama 'chose' to become a  christian likely on the same day he chose  to run for political office. 

 

You're right.

 

 

He's clearly a Hindu

 

 

Oh and us Canadians are ahead of the U.S with a female PM, sure she wasn't elected, and only lasted a couple months but better than U.S.

 

 

 

Now all we need is a black gay atheist midget PM

 

 

 

 

 

 


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WE CAN, WE WILL, WE ARE the

WE CAN, WE WILL, WE ARE the truth afterall ....


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He is not the first black

He is not the first black president.  Nor is he even the first athiest (if that is even true).  Both of those honors go to the first republican president, none other than Abraham Lincoln.  Speaking of Lincoln, care to guess what else he did as president?  Oh, he suspended the writ of habeas corpus, spent money without congressional authorization, and imprisoned 18,000 suspected Confederate sympathizers without trial.

 

Gee, doesn't he sound a whole lot like somebody else who has caused many to spend the last several years proclaiming that the sky is falling...

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I think the nature of the

Here's a wall of text guys enjoy it!

I think the nature of the challenge that atheists face to be seen by most as (at least) equals with theists is fundamentally different than that of the (eg) black or gay communities. Even though we are already seen equals in the eyes of the law by itself, this challenge will be difficult in its own unique way.

Regardless, atheists and theists are obviously not equals on all fronts, and what we propose to be the truth about the universe, as well as the fundamental differences in the mindsets that tend to lead to atheistic / theistic belief, tend to lead to significant differences in how we live our lives and the decisions we tend to make.

The core of the matter may be that it seems to many that atheistic beliefs are not innate, and we can choose to become theists. Or rather, we can always 'help', at will, what we know to be most likely true. Even considering many theists would never consider becoming atheist for most any reason. There are even those who believe we are atheists with the purpose in mind of being annoying, and even though this is true in my case, it is clearly not true for most. Many people then reason it is always acceptable to discriminate when the target can probably help what they believe. And it tends to be the case that there is nothing wrong with discriminating between individuals on such a basis, but only when it is relevant to, whereas many people will generalize until the atheist will always be deemed undesirable regardless of what the position calls for. You do not agree with the position of the atheist on matters of philosophy and theology, so he may not make for your ideal friend/companion/rabbi/pastor. But this causes you eventually to develop the mindset of avoiding hiring one as an employee, or electing one to public office. Because it is just easier to think in terms of generalizations than to think critically about the individual.

Most humans (Americans *ehem*) strive for convenience, and moreover make it a significant priority. We want to create labels for everyone so that we can group them together and say "this group is untrustworthy in such and such capacity because they all think so and so". This is certainly easier, faster, and in some cases overall more efficient than critically analyzing each individual and discovering the the ideologies/traits/character/experience that set them apart from others. So it is believed, for example, someone who professes to be Christian will tend to have such and such morals and values. However, the atheist, for all anyone knows, may be hitler, whose ideologies are typically seen as less than 'Christian'. So it becomes easiest to generalize all atheists into hitlers. So if one does not know any better, they will trust the theist, because this is just the most convenient thing to do.

This all may seem obvious, especially the part with the hitler analogy to anyone who reads conservapedia. but the point of it all is one of the major steps toward (more) common acceptance of atheists to the degree that a self proclaimed atheist can have a fair shot at being elected into office of the Presidency will be to (further) develop a mindset in the general population to abolish many of the labels and parties we tend to group people into, such that it becomes plausible that most people will tend accept the burden of examining the character, mindset, ideologies, and experience of the individual and realizing one's belief in God should not be the significant deciding factor in one's ability to hold public office, and may in fact tend to be a hindrance when it comes to rational decision making, which is clearly the case.

That or, I dunno, we can follow the example set by the french and go for the tried and true method of killing everyone who disagrees. Anyone else still up for that?

You know, I'm just saying it might work is all.

eh? EH?

 

oh hai


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BeachJustice wrote:There are

BeachJustice wrote:
There are even those who believe we are atheists with the purpose in mind of being annoying, and even though this is true in my case,

Lol.

Quote:
Many people then reason it is always acceptable to discriminate when the target can probably help what they believe. And it tends to be the case that there is nothing wrong with discriminating between individuals on such a basis, but only when it is relevant to, whereas many people will generalize until the atheist will always be deemed undesirable regardless of what the position calls for. You do not agree with the position of the atheist on matters of philosophy and theology, so he may not make for your ideal friend/companion/rabbi/pastor. But this causes you eventually to develop the mindset of avoiding hiring one as an employee, or electing one to public office. Because it is just easier to think in terms of generalizations than to think critically about the individual.

It is psychologically natural to stereotype. If a person steals your wallet, you would probably think nothing of their characteristics. However, if, two months later, another person steals your wallet, and you discover some obvious similarity between the two individuals, you'd begin to associate the characteristic to the action.

On the other hand, if a stereotype is obviously ridiculous, "Atheists worship the devil," it is obviously not the result of experience, but indoctrination. In such cases, I would contend that those who believe these stereotypes had no intention of applying it to certain "relevant situations" in the first place. They're not generalizing because it's more convenient, per se, but because they genuinely think that it applies to the entire group.  

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Now that I think about it, I

Now that I think about it, I sort of agree with you.


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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

He is not the first black president.  Nor is he even the first athiest (if that is even true).  Both of those honors go to the first republican president, none other than Abraham Lincoln.  Speaking of Lincoln, care to guess what else he did as president?  Oh, he suspended the writ of habeas corpus, spent money without congressional authorization, and imprisoned 18,000 suspected Confederate sympathizers without trial.

 

Gee, doesn't he sound a whole lot like somebody else who has caused many to spend the last several years proclaiming that the sky is falling...

Obama is the first black president OF THE UNITED STATES. If you know of another, please do tell. I never said he was the first in the world. And who the heck brought up Lincoln?

Seems to me that Bush acted more like a king than a president so if you want to run paralleles I'd suggest you look at your king first before you start pointing fingers.

Jefferson owned slaves and Jackson commited genocide against Native Americans. Our history is not one of peaceful "pilgrims" asking permission to share land, WE INVADED this contenent and took it from others who lived here prior and murdered them to get it.

And OUR president imprisoned innocent Japanese and German citizens, by the 10s of thousands, not because of any evidence, but merely because of their national origin.

So when you talk about Lincoln, that does not shock me. It says to me we need to learn from our past without forgetting it or sugar coating it.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Jackson commited genocide against Native Americans.

Well it probably seemed like the right thing to do at the time...

oh hai


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Hey, Brian37Lincoln invaded

Hey, Brian37

Lincoln invaded his own country. On the scale of history, I rank that one right up there with the annexation of Texas and Manifest Destiny.

All three are symptoms of capitalist imperialism.

 

 

Something on the original topic.

One stereotype of atheists is that most suffer from excessive frugality. We notoriously spend more money on our own self-interests than we do the allegedly 'greater causes'.

It takes a considerable amount of money in our present system to get elected President. Since we can probably assume that we won't get a major cash infusion from the churches, where would we get the money?

T-shirt sales? Chip-in modules?

I'm not trying to sound pessimistic. Just thinking that might be a realistic dealbreaker.

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darth_josh wrote:Hey,

darth_josh wrote:

Hey, Brian37

Lincoln invaded his own country. On the scale of history, I rank that one right up there with the annexation of Texas and Manifest Destiny.

All three are symptoms of capitalist imperialism.

 

 

Something on the original topic.

One stereotype of atheists is that most suffer from excessive frugality. We notoriously spend more money on our own self-interests than we do the allegedly 'greater causes'.

It takes a considerable amount of money in our present system to get elected President. Since we can probably assume that we won't get a major cash infusion from the churches, where would we get the money?

T-shirt sales? Chip-in modules?

I'm not trying to sound pessimistic. Just thinking that might be a realistic dealbreaker.

Don't get me wrong. I am pleased when all labels seek to expand their umbrellas rather than retract. So while I was miffed at my atheist Republican counterpart's response. I wasn't trying to shame him into agreeing with me. It seemed to come out of left feild.

But as far as atheist, republican or democrat or whatever, are concerned. Yes, you are being pesimistic. If you look at other movements in history that made it to the mainstreem, and how long they took, we are newbies by comparison. BUT, we have an easyer path because of those prior.

I am confident that atheists can compete politically in America and protect the Constitution, not through atheist or theist, goggles, but through the idea that empathy holds all of us to the idea, that no matter the dissagreement that we all want to be free.

Blacks, women, gays and Native Americans went through the same process, but they did not give up and while being practical is important, to me, if we keep it up, even with something as small as a post, we can.

So while I am miffed at my republican atheist's response, I am pleased that their are atheists in that party and if enough in that party speak out, that party will eventually get beyond the right wing Jesus dogmatism that hijacked it.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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"Every single person who has

"Every single person who has told you that you couldn't
Lives in fear that you'll achieve the things in life they think you shouldn't
A parallel digression, unswerving in direction
And that was why they set my hair on fire"
-Alun Woodward


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Dray wrote:"Every single

Dray wrote:

"Every single person who has told you that you couldn't
Lives in fear that you'll achieve the things in life they think you shouldn't
A parallel digression, unswerving in direction
And that was why they set my hair on fire"
-Alun Woodward

Pragmatism is not dead, nor should it be. It is foolish to tell a child that they can be Tom Cruise or Payton Manning, considering the amount of people competing for that spot, vs the spots available. You can say to them try your best, but have something to fall back on.

Atheists can, as a collective movement. But I would not tell every atheist that they will be president if they try, that is absurd considering that only one person gets the job every 4 years.

Woopie Goldburg said it best on an episode of " Inside The Actors Studio"

She said, "All of you are capable of being great actors, but most, if not all of you will not sit where I am sitting" She was not thinking about individual abilities, she was thinking about math.

There ARE popular people who have no talent other than noteriety, and people who never see the light of day who have brains hands over fist compaired to the people who get lucky.

So while I say "atheists can" I don't mean any individual, I mean as a collective effort. I haven't written a book like Dawkins, I haven't debated on Nightline like Sapeint, and I might go to my death not being remembered by anyone other than those who knew me.

But for all those who have known me personally in my life, they might call me obnoxious, but they wont call me a slacker.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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A "collective" dominate

A "collective" dominate world view of no Master mind, is what I meant. As to we are the "truth", I meant "reality", which we are continually leaning about.