Someone stole my Evolve Fish. :(
Offline Missing:
My car broke down (again) and I had to leave it overnight in two different places. One was in the parking lot of an Episcopalian Church where I go to community chorus. I also had to leave it overnight at the mechanic's. I can fix a computer, but I know nothing about cars. The bill was about $1000...a huge amount for someone living on disability. It crossed my mind that the mechanic might have overcharged me because of the fish symbol, but I doubt it.
I only noticed today that the fish was missing and it pissed me off. This is the second time my car has been vandalized. Last time was about two weeks before the presidential election in 2004. Radical Christians certainly get their panties in a bunch during election seasons. Last time it was my "Kerry for President" sticker that got ripped off. Whoever stole that got an eyeful because I put "Thou shalt not steal" on the back of the sticker. 
In a related story, I voted via absentee ballot today for Barack Obama.
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Horay for christian morals! The best damned morals there are bar none.
What did the mechanic do to your car? You should have received an itemised bill that you can show to others to see if you were ripped or not.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
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...first Rook a while back, now you.
You would think that even if they didn't make the Thou-Shalt-Not-Steal connection, they might have at least thought that such a thing was petty, or a bad example, or whatever.
But...I guess not.
Conor
At this point in my life I would never deface property simply because I disagreed with the message conveyed, but I have to admit that several years ago, I lost control and bashed in a hard cover of one of my brother's books. It was a very shameful thing to do: wrong because it was wrong, not because some boogie man in the sky would get me or send me to hell for not believing in him.
I never told my brother, but I have tried to make it up to him in various ways. I've fixed his computer for free many times. Recently, I made him a nice necklace for him out of a Carcharocles megalodon tooth and matching beads with a leather lace. It's worth several hard cover right-wing books.
My sense of morality is now defined by what hurts others. Recently, I've been able to put even more of my anger behind me and that should be reflected in the posts I make here from now on. I may still disagree, but I'm not getting angry (or as angry) as I was.
*crosses fingers*
If I get too angry, I'll take breaks from posting.
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...I've taken some, myself, especially in discussions on the Catholic Church, when it seemed as if my dialogue partner just wasn't paying much attention.
Hang in there.
Conor
I think I'm going to let my car go naked for awhile. In the past I've often wondered if tailgating and episodes of road rage directed at me were the fault of my emblems and bumper stickers.
Then again, I've wondered about the attitudes others have displayed toward me as an individual. In one case (music theory class), I'm almost positive the person's negative attitude had something to do with my outspoken atheism. In other cases (such as the soprano prima donna's refusal to say so much as a word to me [the alto prima donna
(if there is such a thing...and if I qualify...), I just don't know.
Regardless, this election season the fundies are all worked up. I think I'll keep my opinions to myself for awhile.
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How about getting that "Jesus Fucking Christ" picture made into a bumper sticker?
Don't forget that having controversial bumper stickers can be a good way to left off steam though. The best one I've seen for this was on my sister's car several years ago:
Eat a queer fetus for Jesus.
Anytime you were pissed off you could hop in that car and know you'd have an excuse to yell expletives and flip off rednecks in pick-up trucks soon. Cathartic for sure!
"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.
It never seaces to amaze me how petty and vendictive humans can be. I ran into a woman at the store yesterday wearing a Obama Bidin pin. I said, "Thats neat", and we talked a few sentances about how bad the past 8 years have been. I started to walk away and she offered me the pin(button).
She explained to me that she had volunteered for the campain to put up Obama/ Biden signs on the side of the local highway. She said that mere days later the signs were taken down.
I asked her if maybe that was merely road crew DOT, doing their job. She said no, that the McCain signs were still up.
It is nothing but sour grapes. It frightens people that maybe others outside their gang can out compete them.
As much as I find deity belief absurd, you will never see me deface a fish symbol, or deface a church marquee. Why cant our counterparts do the same?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Somebody would run you off the road for that
But that would still be priceless
suprisingly enough this is the one thing I havent had a problem with. All my stickers have been left alone. And i have an evolve fish as well. too bad though that someone had to lower themselves to theft because they didnt agree with you...
I can't believe that those Christians would do that. Why would they sin . . . . wait a minute . . . there is no sin. Gosh, I guess we can't say that there is anything wrong with it except you FELT it was wrong. Obviously they FELT it was right - so in reality both of you are right.
I wish all Christians were moral like you guys. I mean then you would never have an evolve fish stolen. There would never be churches burned . . . wait a minute . . . there have been churches burned. stolen evolve fish = burned church - yep that sounds about right.
The deal is that people, both Christian and Atheists do wrong things. Why in the world you guys and talk about how moral you are is incredible. I am a believer and I still sin (do bad things) You are not a believer and you still do wrong things. That is why scripture talks about the sinful nature of human beings . . . oh yeah . . . no such thing.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Sin is a transgression of a principle of that thing you call a god. But, there isn't any evidence that such a thing exists which bring into question the legitimacy of those principles and as for the word 'sin', if there is no evidence of a rule-maker called 'god' then the existence of sin is in question.
What happened here is that someone took something without permission. The purpose , I would assume, of removing the fish is to obstruct someone's opinion because the thief deems it to be wrong and/or is afraid the fish would actually make someone think (but I doubt that anyone who would be offended by the fish would be able to come to this complex conclusion).
Bad behavior is not base solely on the victims emotions, it is also based on the simple fact that messing with other people's property is wrong.
The point of pointing out bad theist behavior is to display the hypocrisy of christians.
Yea, you're right, I don't think there is such a thing.
Scripture does not write itself. Men, humans, mere animals, wrote it and there is ample evidence to support that. The principles in the bible are not a god's principles; it is the principles of the men who wrote the bible (men who were quite ignorant compared to the standards of the 21st century).
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
You miss the point - why was it wrong. You stated that it is wrong to mess with someone's stuff . . . why? I have heard all the talking points on why you (this site) believes there is no sin. I understand that if there is no God - then you have come to conclusion that there is no sin. What I want to know is - if there is no God, why is it wrong to mess with other's stuff. Who made that rule? By what authority is that rule a rule?
I believe that you and the original poster forgot one possibility. Both of you have assumed that someone was offended by the evolve fish. Perhaps, someone always wanted an evolve fish for their car, room, bike, etc . . . and they could not afford one. Perhaps they completely agree with evolution and they simply wanted to express what they believe. Was it wrong for someone who could not afford the evolve fish to take it from someone who obviously has been able to afford two of them? I am just curious how you came about with this rule.
Also - you might want to do some investigating concerning what the word "sin" orginally meant and why Christians and the Bible use this term. Again, I know that if there is no bulls eye - there cannot be a sin-mark. That should help you in your quest if you choose to take it.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Y'know, REVLyle, it is possible that the evolve fish was stolen for a reason different from that which Iruka assumes. Stealing is wrong because, as a society, we have agreed and codified in law, that when something is in the possession of someone else it is theirs and it cannot be taken away without their permission without the possibility of consequences. The person who stole the fish, regardless of their motives, likely thought that there would be no retribution by either the authorities of the law or the person whose possession they stole and so deemed it safe to take it. There is no reason to attribute human behaviour to a deity. It is all perfectly explainable within sociobiology and game theory.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
The things that are nearly universally considered bad are considered so for a good reason. A civilization whose members routinely stole whatever they wanted/killed anyone who pissed them off/raped any women they were attracted to would never survive very long. Most people object to being harmed/killed or having things stolen from them so the vast majority agree that giving up the freedom to kill or steal is worth it to avoid being stolen from themselves.
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Now come on Thomathy. I know you do not believe what you wrote. Homosexuality is wrong because, as a society, we have agreed and codified in law, that people of the same sex should not come together in marriage without penalty of law. This is exactly what you are against.
What you have done is simply said that might makes right. Because a majority of people thought it was wrong - therefore it is wrong. If this is true then it is possible that we would still have slavery. The current statistics are that only between 5 and 10% of society is homosexual, so according to what you have stated - if the 90% state that it is wrong - you are OK with that. Based upon our other conversations, I know you do not adhere to this.
Mattshizzle wrote the same thing: Most people object to being harmed/killed or having things stolen from them so the vast majority agree that giving up the freedom to kill or steal is worth it to avoid being stolen from themselves.
So basically if the majority chooses or votes to make something so - then it should be so. Again, I do not believe that either of you believes this. Let's try again.
Why is it wrong? Is it simply because the majority claims that it is wrong?
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
I meant that as the reasoning people agree to it. The reason it is wrong is that it would be bad for nearly everyone if society allowed people to murder rape and steal. Allowing people to have homosexual relationships harms nobody. By the way, assuming the 10% of people are gay doesn't imply 90% of people think it's wrong. I'm completely heterosexual and see nothing wrong with it. it means 90% of people are heterosexual (or bisexual if they weren't included. )
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BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Iruka Naminori did not give the thief permission to take it.
What you do not seem to understand is that there is no evidence of "god".
Because if people want to keep things they value, they agree to not mess with other people's things and vice versa.
We, as a social animal, made that rule.
Yes
I told you what the definition is. There no evidence of a rule maker.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
The radical counterparts ( and there are more of them than the moderates would have us believe) will never do the same. I submit they would stone atheists and agnostics to death, if they could get away with it.
As to the OP, sorry to hear about your fish. I've had one go missing and another that just got away.... heheh
Plus, a few bumper stickers ripped off too! Sucks.
REVLyle, you don't need the word "sin" in order to define right and wrong... A sin is a act against divine law.
The argument for morality is actually much stonger when it's not based on religion.
Why do you need to know anything more than the fact that you know it is wrong? Science has theories for this anyways. We shouldn't make up answers for things that we don't know.
Using morality to prove your religion just doesn't work for many reasons. Three of these are:
1) The morality in the Bible is atrocious. I would avoid anyone that takes the Bible literally.
2) Most religions have an explanation for morality. The doctrine in the your religion isn't any more plausible than all of the others.
3) The fact that Christians pick and choose from the Bible, following some rules and not others, shows that their morality comes from another source outside of dogma.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
What, there is a field of study call Sociobiology???? I am assuming that you are kidding by asking me that question. Of course this worldview is a neo-Darwinian view. It presumes that all of our social programming is simply for the survival of the species and is simply derived from our genes.
So let’s analyze what you originally wrote because you felt that I misrepresented you.
This is an exact quote: Stealing is wrong because, as a society, we have agreed and codified in law, that when something is in the possession of someone else it is theirs and it cannot be taken away without their permission without the possibility of consequences.
You believe that stealing is wrong because society (a group of individuals who associate with one another for the benefit of the group and its sustainability and/or perpetuation) has agreed as a whole that stealing is wrong – and not only do they agree, they have taken it to the next step and codified it in law so that if someone goes against what the society has agreed upon, the society will punish the individual for acting in such a way since he or she acted in such a way that did NOT benefit the society as a whole.
Within sociobiology, it is presumed that the ultimate goal, once again, is to perpetuate the survival of the tribe (society). Decisions are made in order to preserve or insure human survival (passing on the genes) OR one may behave in an altruistic manner in order to up the odds on their genetic success. This altruistic behavior may be reciprocal as well (I will act this way so that others will act this way back to me). I believe that this is what you are speaking of. I believe that you would say that “not stealing” is simply behaving altruistically and the individual's desire of selfishness are suppressed for the good of the society.
If I am misrepresenting you, I am sure you will let me know.
I certainly do not buy into sociobiology and I see several problems with this theory.
1. When it comes to stealing – doesn’t that only benefit the rich? Isn’t it only those in power who would want this rule. If the answer is yes – then how does it benefit society as a whole? What about those at the bottom of the food chain? If the answer is no, then why wouldn’t we want the weak – those at the bottom to die off. Aren’t they only polluting the gene pool?
2. I guess it find it most perplexing that you, a homosexual, are arguing for sociobiology. My understanding is that this line of thinking states that the group does what is best for passing on their genes and your lifestyle does just the opposite. I am not asking this from hate – I am asking a philosophical question – What benefit does the homosexual lifestyle bring to the perpetuation of the gene pool. It cannot be less competition for fertile women – remember, even the most liberal view has the homosexual population at 10%. It cannot be for population control – again, only 10%. So why, if we are simply animals with chemicals who have evolved social norms for the perpetuation of our genes, allowing homosexuals to be a part of the society. Again, I do not buy into this view so I know the real answer.
3. I also find it interesting that you would introduce a theory that is from a man who although was not Christian, he was not atheist either. He believed that religion was simply a product of evolution. So, do I have a choice to believe or not? You claim that you do not have a choice as a homosexual - it is hardwired into you, but Wilson believed that my belief is simply a mixture of genes and chemicals. (Let’s don’t forget Hammar’s God-Gene). So, whereas your buddies at RRS might think let’s just give him the chemicals to counter act his God chemicals – why not give you guys the chemical to counter act your non-belief.
4. If you are going to ascribe to sociobiology, why were the Nazis wrong? They were getting rid of the unwanted (their society decided that Jews, homosexuals, handicap, etc . . .) did not help their society and they polluted the gene pool. I know that we might say that it is a norm to not kill – but that is not what the Darwinian view is. (the strong survive and the weak die) and if their society decided it was right to kill those mentioned previously – who were we to then say we were MORE right? If we were right and they were wrong – what is the standard in which you are making that statement? Would we have been right if we would have been a weaker nation?
Looking forward to your thoughts on these items.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Do I have to know why certain things are wrong? Why can't I just know it?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
*facepalm*
I don't even know where to begin.
Edit: regarding post #23
Want to start here? Lol
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Sure.
We could have a pool on how long I'd stay alive. 
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I thought about getting a t shirt with that on.
The other day I drove to a nearby small town. Mark Twain made it semi-famous with his short story, "The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County". Now the annual "Frog Jump" is a big hit with California's Hell's Angels.
There's a little store there called Stories in Stone. Due to my interest in paleontology (especially extinct animals), I was told I had to go there. Turns out the grapevine was right. Fossils galore! Kern County is famous for Shark Tooth Hill, a veritable treasure trove of fossilized shark teeth (think megalodon, among others). The owner scouted the land and bought some property. He dug up most of the fossils himself. There were shark teeth of all sizes and descriptions, old bones from a giant sea lion, a nice skull of an extinct crocodilian, etc. California was under water for a very long time: all during the Mesozoic and for some time afterward. Any land animal fossils you'll find will be from the Pleistocene, most likely. I was on a dig in Merced that included mammoth, mastodon, horses, camels, etc.
Anyway, I bought a rather nice poster that tells the story of evolution on earth and to balance the scales from the theft of my EvolveFish, I was thinking of buying this rather nice Darwin poster to go with it:
I recently watched a biography about Darwin and found out I have a lot in common with him. He was sensitive like me and suffered greatly due to the fact he loved his wife who was extremely religious. He felt like he was living a double life. Those who have lived as closeted atheists can relate. Mr. Darwin also developed a chronic illness and suffered for thirty years. It's been about twenty years for me. I'd really rather be healthy before I've suffered for thirty years.
You can buy this lovely poster from Evolvefish.Com.
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An individual with only $5 is more effected by one dollar being stolen than one with $100. Why is someone weak solely due to a lack of material possessions?
With a T-shirt, I'd maybe stay alive just a little longer.
If you do decide to get one, be careful. I had a Monty Python shirt that said, "I Fart in Your General Direction" and the reaction in town wasn't very nice. I stopped wearing the shirt.
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I wonder if you'd get thrown out of places for the JFC one - if you haven't seen it, it says "Jesus Fucking Christ" and has a lovely picture of Jesus fucking another Jesus up the ass. I doubt fundies would find it very amusing, but hey.
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You may not be thrown out, but some drunk asshole would surely beat you up.
I could see if my one online friend up in New York would wear it. He's a martial arts expert and once beat the shit out of 4 guys with knives who tried to rob him. The drunk fundie would get an unpleasant surprise. DarthJosh knows who this guy is.
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Cool. Lets put natural selection to work. If he wears that tshirt, fundies will attack him and he will beat them to death
.
Less fundies, better world for everyone
Dear lady! I must wonder: had you not considered the possibility that your automobile adornment did <i>itself</i> evolve, and, having developed the ability to remove itself with your automobile, merely ran off on its own accord? Surely you must have seen this coming; a fender, after all, is no place to keep a pet.
But it seemed so happy there the last couple of years. Maybe it ran off with someone's naked lady mud flaps.
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That seems fairly tame to what happened here in Jacksonville to my truck. I went into a fast food restaurant one day on my lunch break.. and I wasn't in there more than 10 minutes and by the time I had come out somebody had completely scraped the two stickers off my back window. My "ATHEIST" and "HONK if you are UNSAVED" stickers were both in pieces in the bed of my truck.
Whoever it was either followed me there or had the tools readily available because there were no scratches on my window or anything. So I did the only logical thing to do.. I ordered brand new versions along with a couple others (ATHEISM IS MYTH UNDERSTOOD and one with a thomas jefferson quote). I've yet to have anyone mess with these but I guess it's only a matter of time in this baptist infested town.
I learned years ago that if I wanted to sport a controversial or unpopular bumper sticker on my car that I had to pre-empt any attempts at vandalism or theft by either mounting the sticker on my rear window from the inside or by protecting the sticker w/ a clear covering that could not be readily removed or marked on. I must admit that I did derive some satisfaction from the knowledge that there'd be frustrated and hostile vandals whose attempts at imposing their beliefs on me would be foiled when they couldn't deface or steal my bumper sticker.
I'm (a whole lot) older now and am far less inclined to "pick fights" or place myself in the line of fire anymore. I recently moved back to Eastern NC where I grew up. It isn't the buckle but still it's right smack on the Bible belt. I have to admit - I don't have the nerve to put the "Evolve" sticker or anything like it on my car here. I can't afford to repair my van if it's vandalized as a result. Frankly, I'm surprised my "Hilary for President" sticker hasn't been ripped off or defaced. I drove clear across country w/ that one - during the heat of election campaigns - and surprisingly it has survived.
Fighting costs - both in real money and in personal energy and spiritual investment. Like so many others, I pick my fights carefully now and leave the brawling to the youngsters who have the strength for it.
Just goes to prove that most hard core theists have not matured past the politics of two year olds.
I love it, got to get me a few of those