My Beliefs [Trollville]

Arj
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My Beliefs [Trollville]

I'm new here and I just wanted to introduce myself. I do not adhere to the belief of Karma, any "perilous missions" to rescue humanity on behalf of a particular deity, superstitions, dogma, Law of Attraction, Ego, Satan, Christ, or God; yet I do believe in the existence of an After Life, reincarnation, and spirit beings. All the drama, chaos, and violence in the world can be attributed to the unawareness of one's own subjectivity. I later discovered that Albert Ellis, grandfather of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT), illustrated this philosophy through his work so I am also a big fan of his.

 

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


I AM GOD AS YOU
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Well shit man, say

Well shit man, say something, instead of being a fancy word processor. Are you god or not, as you need to define g-o-d . Come on , what is god? That is the ultimate question , isn't it? Tell us what is god , please.

  Is this not god ??? ,

http://livefromcern.web.cern.ch/livefromcern/antimatter/index.html


Arj
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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:Well

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

Well shit man, say something, instead of being a fancy word processor. Are you god or not, as you need to define g-o-d . Come on , what is god? That is the ultimate question , isn't it? Tell us what is god , please.

  Is this not god ??? ,

http://livefromcern.web.cern.ch/livefromcern/antimatter/index.html

How is that the ultimate question for a freethinker who doesn't abide by any dogma, MESSIAH, or creed? Again, this is a dualistic question and I'm not making this up I made a thread about it way before I got to post 301. I don't rationalize life in dualistic terms. That's my answer. To me, that question is irrelevant. PERIOD. It's a non-issue. How is it that an Atheist doesn't agree?

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


Arj
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MattShizzle wrote:Wow, you

MattShizzle wrote:

Wow, you managed to piss off IAm. Very few people are enough of a twatlips to do that. Only the biggest asshats.

Yeah. Well then we have that in common. Twatlips and Ass wipes such as yourself don't get to me either.

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


Arj
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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:Well

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

Well shit man, say something, instead of being a fancy word processor. Are you god or not, as you need to define g-o-d . Come on , what is god? That is the ultimate question , isn't it? Tell us what is god , please.

  Is this not god ??? ,

http://livefromcern.web.cern.ch/livefromcern/antimatter/index.html

You can't project/dictate your logic onto me then insist I must live by the same creed. That's fucking illogical, the very definition of proselytizing, and lastly, radical (But everyone will claim they don't see this...yeah. sure). You don't know me. Maybe you and Bob are related?

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


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 I don't rationalize life

 I don't rationalize life in dualistic terms. You are funny as you say nothing Arj .... you are a linguistic wimp, another shit sophist , who says nothing .... you are lost as you play your language game of nothings ....

Sophism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophists

 


Arj
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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote: I

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

 I don't rationalize life in dualistic terms. You are funny as you say nothing IAM.... you are a linguistic wimp, a shit  sophist , who says nothing .... you are lost as you play your language game of nothings ....

My name could easily be replaced with yours and RRS. In fact that's the point I've been trying to make. You all weren't saying ANYTHING at all but spoke with an air of shit-riority. It is only exposed as nothingness now because YOU have finally learned that you don't have and can't come up with ANYTHING TRULY PROLIFIC to say. Duh.

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


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You do not believe in God.

You do not believe in God. 

Are you an atheist?

Wikipedia- Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods, or the rejection of theism. It is also defined more broadly as an absence of belief in deities, or nontheism.

Wiktionary- Absence of belief in the existence of God or gods. The belief that there are no gods, the denial of the existence of God or gods.

Dictionary.com- 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God. 2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

American Heritage Dictionary- Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

Wordnet- 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God "ant: theism" 2. a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods

Webster's Revised Unabridged- 1. The disbelief or denial of the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being. 2. Godlessness.

Webster's Third International- 1 a: disbelief in the existence of God or any other deity b: the doctrine that there is neither God nor any other deity 2: godlessness esp. in conduct : ungodliness, wickedness.

answers.com- Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/a/definition.htm

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/whatisatheism.htm

http://www.rationalresponders.com/am_i_agnostic_or_atheist

http://www.rationalresponders.com/agnosticism_and_its_many_misconceptions 

Oxford English Dictionary- Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a God. Also, Disregard of duty to God, godlessness (practical atheism).

Canadian Oxford Dictionary- disbelief in the existence of God or god

Merriam-Webster Online- 1 archaic : ungodliness , wickedness 2 a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity

http://www.evilbible.com/Definition_of_Atheism_1.htm

EvilBible wrote:
no reputable dictionary has a “lack of belief” definition for either “atheism” or “atheist”.

Virtually all of the best sources use the word "disbelief," Oxford, Wikipedia, Websters, American Heritage, etc, um.......

dis- not

believe- to have confidence, conviction or faith in the truth of something.

Seems pretty obvious to me. Yet, some sources stipulate that disbelief is a complete rejection and a positive assertion.

http://dictionary.die.net/disbelief

But, on what basis? Maybe we need to look at the prefix "dis."  

Dislike is not like. Disapprove is not approve. Disagree. Discontent. Dishonest. These are not positive assertions.

Of course, you can also also refer to disappear, which is the opposite of appear. Or, you can, disassemble, which is the opposite of assemble.

Obviously, with all these contradicting sources, there's some subjectivity in the interpretation here. 

Yet, if the dictionaries were applying the definition of "opposite" instead of "not," then disbelief and denial would mean the same thing. So, in this case, why do dictionaries say, denial or disbelief? Clearly, the most reputable dictionaries use two terms, "disbelief," and "denial," because these are not the same. Furthermore, if atheism is only 100% denial, what word would be use for the middle ground, agnosticism? We would have to change the definition of agnosticism as well. Therefore, I think we can conclude that it is more logical and it is the official definition that atheism can be disbelief-weak or denial-strong, 

There was a small debate with another member, I think "Spin," about the meaning of atheism.

Apparently, everything requires some clarification. Stuff is complicated. 

Ergo, Arj, you are an atheist. The dictionaries don't care whether you like the negative connotations of the word or not.  

On the other hand, the meaning of a word is whatever we make it. So, if you're really pissed, you can join all the people who are trying to argue that atheism="the religious doctrine that there are no gods."

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


butterbattle
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  Quote:PROLIFIC to

  

Quote:
PROLIFIC to say.
 

Ooh, careful, don't throw big words around. You might get hurt.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


BobSpence
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Arj wrote:BobSpence1

Arj wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

Arj, it is true that "science can turn you into radical atheists", if by 'radical atheist', you mean strong atheist. This is entirely reasonable, since a thorough understanding of what we have learnt from scientific study of reality is not only that religious and other supernatural ideas just don't make sense, and are in conflict with so much of what we actually find out when we openly, and with minimum pre-conceived ideas, study the universe and humanity.

We also understand the psychology of why many people find these ideas appealing.

So, of course, when a discipline (Science), designed explicitly to uncover the truth, independent, as far as possible, of our built in biases and fallible senses and intuitions, consistently conflicts with religious teachings, then strong atheism is a reasonable position to take.

Ok. So now YOU go from "not expecting everyone to respect our beliefs" to "We are REALLY just freethinkers" to THIS. "I admit that I'm a bigot but that's just because of EVERYONE else's irrational beliefs"......wow. I don't think I'm the one that needs to be examined here.... if you catch my drift...I'm positive you will say that you don't. But I'm wondering which personality will be speaking for you this time??? This is called compartmentalizing bordering on schizophrenia.

1. We are Atheists, in that we do not believe in any Gods.

2. Most of us could also be described as Freethinkers, because we share the general attitude to dogma and authority that is part of being a Freethinker.

Nowhere did I say or imply that "we are JUST free thinkers", I said most of us are ALSO freethinkers, as well as being Atheists.

WTF has any of that got to do with "not expecting everyone to respect our beliefs"???????

None of my justification for why I feel that what science shows us about the Universe is most consistent with non supernatural explanations is based on assuming one way or another that other people are irrational.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Arj
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Boy, you all are hard of

Boy, you all are hard of hearing. I said I am a freethinker. I already answered this question several times Butter. Please just read the last few pages if your looking to get the same questions answered AGAIN. (But I'm the only one that sees the redundancy right....boy these definitions are truly PROLIFIC.... I never heard this beard fallacy that's about to ensue....AGAIN.)

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=6

Come on. If your gonna contribute to this conversation at least start working with some new material. Better yet, try some NEW IDEAS.

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


Arj
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butterbattle

butterbattle wrote:

  

Quote:
PROLIFIC to say.
 

Ooh, careful, don't throw big words around. You might get hurt.

 

I didn't think you were comfortable with using it. I understand. Don't worry. It's not gonna bite you. LOL

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


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 Arj, I've scammed the last

 Arj, I've scammed the last few pages, but I still don't understand your rationale on this. You've claimed that you're not an atheist. Yes, you've stated that you're a freethinker; however, how does this mean you're not an atheist? The two terms are not mutually exclusive.

Atheism is simply disbelief in a God. Clearly, you fit that definition.

If I've missed something, please show me. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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WTF has any of that got to

WTF has any of that got to do with "not expecting everyone to respect our beliefs"???????

Bob, you are a lost cause. Y in the hell would you use "strong" atheism with someone who wasn't even debating supernatural beliefs in the first place.

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


Arj
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butterbattle wrote: Arj,

butterbattle wrote:

 Arj, I've scammed the last few pages, but I still don't understand your rationale on this. You've claimed that you're not an atheist. Yes, you've stated that you're a freethinker; however, how does this mean you're not an atheist? The two terms are not mutually exclusive.

Atheism is simply disbelief in a God. Clearly, you fit that definition.

If I've missed something, please show me. 

 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=5#comment-204680

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


Arj
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Arj wrote:.... I never heard

Arj wrote:

.... I never heard this beard fallacy that's about to ensue....AGAIN.

Told you.


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Arj lives in his world of

Arj lives in his world of nothing .... why he is here is his dream of nothing said. Arj says nothing ..... His whole message is nothing.


butterbattle
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 Arj wrote:A definition of

 

Arj wrote:
A definition of 'freethinker' may well INCLUDE 'not believing in God', but it is definitely more than that, otherwise it WOULD be exactly the SAME as the definition of 'Atheist'.

Arj wrote:
I'm not an atheist.

Nowadays, freethinker is commonly used for atheists, but this isn't necessarily always the case. I wouldn't say that freethinker means more than atheism, but, rather, that they simply say different things. If you are open-minded and free from dogma and fundamentalist thinking, then you're a thinker. If you don't believe in God, then you're an atheist. 

Do you not like the term atheism? If so, why?

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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1. The problem I have is

1. The problem I have is that you call any questioning of why you hold the beliefs you hold a "debate". If this is really something you believe in, there shouldn't be a problem in telling people why. Instead, you started to offer proof as to why you believed your view was correct - "My mom's a medium so I know there is a spirit world". You started the debate at that point when you made the claim of knowledge. If you don't want debates, don't start them.

2. I'm not calling this a pass - the pass is what you've been begging for when you start a denate and then say you don't want one. What you're getting here is scrutiny - if you don't like what others are seeing, reexamine it yourself. Otherwise, I have to figure that you just came here to preach.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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From 'new eve' the

From 'new eve' the website/blog/forum that Arj founded:

"In this forum, I do things a little differently. Unlike Atheism, Christian forums, and other fanatical philosophical/religious forums and chat rooms, you do not have to debate in a hostile environment where people spew irrational hate and rage. In fact, this behavior is strictly prohibited here. Secondly, you do not have to prove your case through scientific data, quotes from dead philosophers/presidents/scientists, fallible scripture or countless self-help books in which the author proclaims to be an "enlightened being with the 'magic antidote'". Lastly, you will not be ostracized simply because you have a different point of view."

 

*This speaks to the OP’s thought process and why continuing to discuss the subject matter with them will end in everyone involved getting nowhere.

 ***EDIT (Submitted before adding)***

Slowly building a blog at ~

http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/


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I AM GOD AS YOU

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

Luminon, thanks for all your posts ...  I enjoy reading your revealing ideas of mystic thinking, even tho I am not mystic. You say all is ONE , and so do I, but past lives make absolute no sense to me ???


I'll try to explain it, but it's so natural for me, that I can hardly imagine it being otherwise. Regression therapy, showing past lives is said to be just making people think up the past life stories, but that's not the whole truth. The least known, but the most important thing on it are physical feelings and very strong (usually unpleasant) emotions the client has during a therapy. If he/she is taken through a death (let's say) by a drowning, then the feelings are very strong, authentic and must be repeated over and over again, until they gradually fade away. The stories of past lives surely may be imaginary and sometimes are (typically when a client sees himself to be John the Baptist or John Huss) but the client's uncaused agony the chair, and next phase (work term "leaving into a light&quotEye-wink are genuine. This therapy is very tiring, both for a client and therapist. My mother did that, but now she has a lot of other work and does only critical cases.
So, we have the clients living often normal and happy lives, having suddenly a physical problem, under which a therapy uncovers a deep trauma, or a traumatic series typical by dying in very harsh circumstances, which didn't and couldn't happen anywhere in their lifetime or historical period. (for example, burning of witches) This fact forces us to consider an existence of the past lives. Now the question is how exactly it works.
(btw, a problems caused by a trauma in this life are also common, but often there is a series of past lives tied to them)

(warning: esoteric infestation ahead )
I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:
How can individual consciousness clusters stay contained in the transition of birth and death? I don't get it. How could I have been before, to die and be again, in any connected individual personal way, except to say my energy matter isn't destroyed, as says thermodynamics, but surly not reassembled, to say that the individual me stays connected, past and future ?????
A theory on this is fairly complicated, and involves still finer realms of existence, human vehicle consisting of subtle bodies,  the soul, the monad (something like a soul of the soul), permanent atoms, and so on. Now it's probably a good time to emphasize, that I'm not a mystic, I'm rather an occultist. The difference is as you see, mystics sees that all is one, while occultist sees the countless relations of everything with everything, which makes the all to be one. I think you're more of a mystic than me.
So, the occult/esoteric theory says, that the subtle bodies of a human grows around the permanent atoms. These atoms, etheric-physical one, then astral and mental. ("mental" simply means a realm of existence, like is our physical, not to a subjective mental activity as such) These atoms also stores a quality of bodies which grows from them every new incarnation, there is stored our progress in these particular areas, like emotional intelligence. After a death the consciousness leaves a physical and etheric body and uses either astral, or mental body, which I suppose can decompose too, but usually not immediately and maybe not even every time. All these bodies are just a vehicles for the consciousness of the soul, with a certain degree of autonomity, but their death, or precisely being reduced totally except for one permanent atom, is not a reason for grief. There is one higher body, called causal, idealistic/intuitive (as compared to mental, intellectual), but this doesn't get destroyed, except for one special ocassion.
The value of subtle bodies is in how well they can bring down to Earth the consciousness and will of the soul, or even a monad. All great people in any area of life, who did something great, or even leads a group of any size, managed to bring something of the soul quality into their work, and this is the technical basis of all political charisma, personal magnetism, or geniality.
One of several reasons why I consider the whole theory as functional, is that our group of esoterics amateurs had seen a numerous times an activity of the soul itself as an autonomous being, and appreciated this theory for it's usefulness for a communication with a soul. (which is one per human)
 

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:
  When the big bang possibly falls back on it self , into a mega black hole that goes bang again , will I be again, will all be the same again? 

   About the bang, singularity .... why assume one bang, why not infinite bangs, as this very day, way the heck out there, beyond our vision ??? Will science ever know?

I think the universe actually expands by increasing speed, it's nowhere near to falling back. As for the theory, the universe will not fall again into itself anymore. What all life does, solid or etheric physical specially, is that it spiritualizes the matter itself. It makes it respond to a spiritual principle, be employed in it's work, and become less material. The Big Bang was a concentration, a precipitation of already existing etheric matter into one point, becoming physical. This spiritualizing of matter is an opposite process, but doesn't require all matter to be at one point. It will eventually vanish from a solid-physical existence, and will truly fall back into the source, not spatially, but qualitatively, it will kind of sublime. As for other bangs, don't ask me, my theory doesn't say about it. Not because it's limited, but because being in human form limits our understanding. These things are beyond time, speech and thought, on my graph a few tenths of lines above where we live. There is many more amazing things remaining for science to discover. But actually, my knowledge is like a geek's manual to the life and the universe, it's very specialized. It's mostly specialized on issues which an aspirant may encounter on his/her evolutionary path in next two thousands years and something of what happened in last 18.5 millions of years. It's really a short time and a short path of development, compared to what a science can think about.

 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Arj, I think you are a

Arj, I think you are a "good" guy, and realize my real "anger" is directed at the general superstitious world view, which I have no tolerance for, and will not appease it. But I am tolerant of people as I basically understand our innate human nature of flawed thinking. I always try to be a pacifist, but shit, there is war and starvation etc this day.

I also admit I am a radical materialist atheist preacher trying to change the world view and the very definition of g-o-d. I like the atheistic buddha gnosis story jesus , and curse the xain jesus and god of abraham separatism thinking.

Reincarnation just means recycling as thermodynamics, and many progressive buddhist's have dropped the word all together, because of the silly folklore attached to it. Alan Watts is a mentor of mine.

I am an impatient agent of the Paradigm Shift.

http://www.taketheleap.com/define.html

In 1962, Thomas Kuhn wrote The Structure of Scientific Revolution, and fathered, defined and popularized the concept of "paradigm shift". Kuhn argues that scientific advancement is not evolutionary, but rather is a "series of peaceful interludes punctuated by intellectually violent revolutions", and in those revolutions "one conceptual world view is replaced by another". ( more

     Thanks for mentioning sexologist atheist Albert Ellis, who's views on sex and religion progressed ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Ellis#Work_as_sexologist_and_sex_and_love_researcher

  Anyway, thanks for your posts and welcome to this xlint place of learning, RRS. Get "free er" ....  


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Thanks Luminon, interesting

Thanks Luminon, interesting as always to read your thoughts friend. I was hoping to get a better sense of pre life / after life , as you and Arj suggest, but I just can't, except to say all is eternal, and one, as themodynamics explains as to include anti-matter ( as some call "etheric" ), and the "Timeless Universe" model that Eloise mentioned.

  Oh well, LOL , go science.   Eventually the general "world view" will be that we are not "spiritual", that all is material.


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Thanks Renee , that says

Thanks Renee , that says alot about our caring new appeasing friend, Arj.

  Arj, read this, from RRS Hamby, and give us your thoughts,

Religious Moderation

http://www.rationalresponders.com/religious_moderation

   Hey RRS Mods, why was the Arj site blocked? Just curious.

 


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 Quote:Unlike Atheism,

 

Quote:
Unlike Atheism, Christian forums, and other fanatical philosophical/religious forums and chat rooms, you do not have to debate in a hostile environment where people spew irrational hate and rage. In fact, this behavior is strictly prohibited here.

That makes sense, although it could be the catalyst for censorship.

Quote:
Secondly, you do not have to prove your case through scientific data, quotes from dead philosophers/presidents/scientists, fallible scripture or countless self-help books in which the author proclaims to be an "enlightened being with the 'magic antidote'".

-no quotes

-no science

-no scripture

How would people on her forum debate at all? What about history, geography, etc? Are they allowed to use personal experiences and logic? 

Okay, so I'm guessing they're allowed to use subjective evidence but no science. That's just great. Brilliant.

Quote:
This speaks to the OP’s thought process and why continuing to discuss the subject matter with them will end in everyone involved getting nowhere.

This thread now has over 300 posts, and, so far, it has gotten nowhere. Yet, she seems intelligent, and if she realized that she is not questioning some of her beliefs, we could make progress. 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Renee Obsidianwords

Renee Obsidianwords wrote:

From 'new eve' the website/blog/forum that Arj founded:

"In this forum, I do things a little differently. Unlike Atheism, Christian forums, and other fanatical philosophical/religious forums and chat rooms, you do not have to debate in a hostile environment where people spew irrational hate and rage. In fact, this behavior is strictly prohibited here. Secondly, you do not have to prove your case through scientific data, quotes from dead philosophers/presidents/scientists, fallible scripture or countless self-help books in which the author proclaims to be an "enlightened being with the 'magic antidote'". Lastly, you will not be ostracized simply because you have a different point of view."

 

*This speaks to the OP’s thought process and why continuing to discuss the subject matter with them will end in everyone involved getting nowhere.

 ***EDIT (Submitted before adding)***

The quote she used also ended with this statement:  Here, you are simply given the freedom and the power to THINK...come what may. 

Meaning, people aren't permitted to proselytize with ANY of those sources, Butter. I said you don't HAVE to....I did not say you CAN'T.... just because you have a thought that might not be proven by scientific data doesn't mean you have to STOP thinking it. Like some people assume here. And it works the other way around too. Just because you have a belief that's not substantiated by Scripture doesn't mean you have to STOP believing either. That's the beauty of freethought, non-dualism, AND objectivity. Basically, I'm encouraging a more self-awakening/self-realization process (like Albert Ellis through REBT) not a debate forum.  

And I wanted to add that that is what I was looking for when I came here. A place that was truly open to self discovery. Where you might show up with the wrong beliefs or doubts that you were too insecure/scared to share...but you can come here and just talk about it (Not bully or debate or intimidate) and see where rationalizing it goes. How do you get from point A to point B? You walk (you know what I mean for those who like to take everything literally). But first you have to be willing AND permitted to start on that journey. It takes both of those things to make it work. That's what the thread about dualism was all about. You can think your better then one person because of this and that degree and the other person will think you are better then him too...but in actuality that's not the case when it came time to swim (Life is like that. PERIOD.).....I call that the entrapment of dualism. It feels good to think your (intelligence, IQ, beliefs, material possessions) makes you better then the next person, above everyone else. That's y people don't want to let that rationality go but then you are blind sighted by a bruised ego and a dose of humility, in an instant, when you come to find yourself standing next to someone who's two feet taller then you. Practice objectivity and this can be avoided.

After a few hit and misses and not finding all that I wanted in a forum I just decided to create my own.... Thus, New Eve was born. LOL.

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:Thanks

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

Thanks Renee , that says alot about our caring new appeasing friend, Arj.

  Arj, read this, from RRS Hamby, and give us your thoughts,

Religious Moderation

http://www.rationalresponders.com/religious_moderation

   Hey RRS Mods, why was the Arj site blocked? Just curious.

 

I wonder what made you think we were enemies in the first place??? LOL. Anyway, in all honesty, by the description listed, I would've been considered a Moderate Christian BEFORE I became who I am today.... then I found out Christianity was a lie. So I don't believe in it anymore. That's y when someone asked me what's the difference between a Christian, a Jew, and a Muslim? I said I don't know. I don't know what the difference is. I DO know that the lie they tell themselves is all the same.  So it is what it is.

 

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


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Arj, I don't remember

Arj, I don't remember calling you an enemy, but if I did, I would have only meant in a general way, as meaning dogmatic idol worship is all our enemy, or to appease such ideas.  As to entertaining ideas "not proven" is fine with me.

 I've enjoyed your kindness, and reading your ideas, tho I disagree with some of them, such as "afterlife" .... Reincarnation???

I like a lot of Zen Buddhism, Alan Watts stuff. Here's a couple vids, I post a lot, you might enjoy.

"Wisdom of the Buddha" , 8 mins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTsb-woP3jI
  

Carl Sagan - "Pale Blue Dot" , 3 min   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M

 


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Remember, Absence of proof

Remember, Absence of proof is not proof of absence... and this time I got the quote right. LOL.


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Arj wrote:Remember, Absence

Arj wrote:

Remember, Absence of proof is not proof of absence... and this time I got the quote right. LOL.

 I think the more useful version is "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". This in fact can be false, depending on the proposition being considered. For example,  the concept of an omni-present interventionist God.

IOW if the proposition being argued is something which is supposed to affect many aspects of normal life on many occasions, then absence of evidence for such intervention is indeed evidence that the proposition is false in some respects at least.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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did I word this quote wrong

did I word this quote wrong again? Bump that. I'm sticking to my own words from now on that way I always know what I'm saying. I agree. Yes definitely.

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


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Arj wrote:Remember, Absence

Arj wrote:

Remember, Absence of proof is not proof of absence... and this time I got the quote right. LOL.

So when I accuse you of murder people should just take my word for it?  I don't have any proof, but why let that stop me or the police.  We should act now as if it were true because you could kill again. 

That guy had a gun pointed at me, so I killed him in self defense... What do you mean he doesn't have a gun.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?

 

Sounds made up...
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Magus wrote:Arj

Magus wrote:

Arj wrote:

Remember, Absence of proof is not proof of absence... and this time I got the quote right. LOL.

So when I accuse you of murder people should just take my word for it?  I don't have any proof, but why let that stop me or the police.  We should act now as if it were true because you could kill again. 

That guy had a gun pointed at me, so I killed him in self defense... What do you mean he doesn't have a gun.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?

 

That's why I said in the post above this one that I will just stop using quotes. I don't care to debate over someone else's words.

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
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To be human is to be born

To be human is to be born screaming in shock, to then live a life in awe, knowing pain and joy, and that death awaits, which unfortunately can make for a sense of guilt, fear, despair, and so the confusion, as we communicate our plight, stuck in this awe, we seek to understand.

It is the on going battle we all share, life itself, the awe, which I call gawed. Yes, in the spirit of wanting world cooperation, I do yell in frustration. Yet I seek no forgiveness for my human-ness, but I do seek the truth of what all existence is, rejecting wishful thinking of an afterlife, as I dream and speculate of how we all could live this life of awe NOW, most peacefully. The children are my greatest mentors.


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:To be

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

To be human is to be born screaming in shock, to then live a life in awe, knowing pain and joy, and that death awaits, which unfortunately can make for a sense of guilt, fear, despair, and so the confusion, as we communicate our plight, stuck in this awe, we seek to understand.

It is the on going battle we all share, life itself, the awe, which I call gawed. Yes, in the spirit of wanting world cooperation, I do yell in frustration. Yet I seek no forgiveness for my human-ness, but I do seek the truth of what all existence is, rejecting wishful thinking of an afterlife, as I dream and speculate of how we all could live this life of awe NOW, most peacefully. The children are my greatest mentors.

Wow! Definitely one of your best, most poetic posts, IAGAY...

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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My humble thanks buddha Bob,

My humble thanks buddha Bob, as the truly prolific poster you are.

Dang, when will the perfect metaphor be written? Umm, hey, heck, we are all the metaphor ....   


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:To be

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

To be human is to be born screaming in shock, to then live a life in awe, knowing pain and joy, and that death awaits, which unfortunately can make for a sense of guilt, fear, despair, and so the confusion, as we communicate our plight, stuck in this awe, we seek to understand.

It is the on going battle we all share, life itself, the awe, which I call gawed. Yes, in the spirit of wanting world cooperation, I do yell in frustration. Yet I seek no forgiveness for my human-ness, but I do seek the truth of what all existence is, rejecting wishful thinking of an afterlife, as I dream and speculate of how we all could live this life of awe NOW, most peacefully. The children are my greatest mentors.

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days...Now I wonder who this boat load of emotion effects the most?

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


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Arj wrote:I AM GOD AS YOU

Arj wrote:

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

To be human is to be born screaming in shock, to then live a life in awe, knowing pain and joy, and that death awaits, which unfortunately can make for a sense of guilt, fear, despair, and so the confusion, as we communicate our plight, stuck in this awe, we seek to understand.

It is the on going battle we all share, life itself, the awe, which I call gawed. Yes, in the spirit of wanting world cooperation, I do yell in frustration. Yet I seek no forgiveness for my human-ness, but I do seek the truth of what all existence is, rejecting wishful thinking of an afterlife, as I dream and speculate of how we all could live this life of awe NOW, most peacefully. The children are my greatest mentors.

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days...Now I wonder who this boat load of emotion effects the most?

Life is a wonderful thing in and of itself - why mess it up by adding a spirit world?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Arj wrote:I AM GOD AS YOU

Arj wrote:

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

To be human is to be born screaming in shock, to then live a life in awe, knowing pain and joy, and that death awaits, which unfortunately can make for a sense of guilt, fear, despair, and so the confusion, as we communicate our plight, stuck in this awe, we seek to understand.

It is the on going battle we all share, life itself, the awe, which I call gawed. Yes, in the spirit of wanting world cooperation, I do yell in frustration. Yet I seek no forgiveness for my human-ness, but I do seek the truth of what all existence is, rejecting wishful thinking of an afterlife, as I dream and speculate of how we all could live this life of awe NOW, most peacefully. The children are my greatest mentors.

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days...Now I wonder who this boat load of emotion effects the most?

A couple of days? It was only posted d 24 hours before your response here...

So it must have affected you, Arj, since you have been thinking about it so much, and it even got your sense of time screwed up. What a frightening thought, got your thinking even more confused that before. Careful there IAGAY, you'll have poor ol' Arj completely out of her skull if you do something like that again...

But seriously, what is the point of this comment?

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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 .... which reminds me. I

 .... which reminds me. I should have wrote, "wish of", instead of "spirit of".

 Hey, Arj, "a boat load of emotion" .... yeah life on spaceship earth.

  


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jcgadfly wrote:Arj wrote:I

jcgadfly wrote:

Arj wrote:

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

To be human is to be born screaming in shock, to then live a life in awe, knowing pain and joy, and that death awaits, which unfortunately can make for a sense of guilt, fear, despair, and so the confusion, as we communicate our plight, stuck in this awe, we seek to understand.

It is the on going battle we all share, life itself, the awe, which I call gawed. Yes, in the spirit of wanting world cooperation, I do yell in frustration. Yet I seek no forgiveness for my human-ness, but I do seek the truth of what all existence is, rejecting wishful thinking of an afterlife, as I dream and speculate of how we all could live this life of awe NOW, most peacefully. The children are my greatest mentors.

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days...Now I wonder who this boat load of emotion effects the most?

Life is a wonderful thing in and of itself - why mess it up by adding a spirit world?

Is this rhetorical?

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


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BobSpence1 wrote:Arj wrote:I

BobSpence1 wrote:

Arj wrote:

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

To be human is to be born screaming in shock, to then live a life in awe, knowing pain and joy, and that death awaits, which unfortunately can make for a sense of guilt, fear, despair, and so the confusion, as we communicate our plight, stuck in this awe, we seek to understand.

It is the on going battle we all share, life itself, the awe, which I call gawed. Yes, in the spirit of wanting world cooperation, I do yell in frustration. Yet I seek no forgiveness for my human-ness, but I do seek the truth of what all existence is, rejecting wishful thinking of an afterlife, as I dream and speculate of how we all could live this life of awe NOW, most peacefully. The children are my greatest mentors.

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days...Now I wonder who this boat load of emotion effects the most?

A couple of days? It was only posted d 24 hours before your response here...

So it must have affected you, Arj, since you have been thinking about it so much, and it even got your sense of time screwed up. What a frightening thought, got your thinking even more confused that before. Careful there IAGAY, you'll have poor ol' Arj completely out of her skull if you do something like that again...

But seriously, what is the point of this comment?

 

Then I wasn't paying attention. I've being around other forums. I didn't check the date before I posted. I was making an observation. I think a lot of people have problems with world domination. That's a wishful thought that would never happen because of subjectivity.

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote: ....

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

 .... which reminds me. I should have wrote, "wish of", instead of "spirit of".

 Hey, Arj, "a boat load of emotion" .... yeah life on spaceship earth.

  

LOL.

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


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Magus wrote:Arj

Magus wrote:

Arj wrote:

Remember, Absence of proof is not proof of absence... and this time I got the quote right. LOL.

So when I accuse you of murder people should just take my word for it?  I don't have any proof, but why let that stop me or the police.  We should act now as if it were true because you could kill again. 

That guy had a gun pointed at me, so I killed him in self defense... What do you mean he doesn't have a gun.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?

 

I don't think anybody can be prosecuted without proof.

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


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Arj, I was raised to ask

Arj, I was raised to ask what isn't god, which resulted in me rejecting anything that suggested mystic immaterial separatism ideas. I freely admit I am totally opinionated in my "awe". 

You could say I am dense, as I the lack the ability to have honest "faith" that there was ever a beginning, or a non completely material eternal, all encompassing , timeless cosmos of bangs, black holes, antimatter, etc and whatever we might come to call all connected reality.

To me , to say "afterlife", just means the "thermodynamic principal" of never dying energy/matter transitions, but where our individual consciousness can not stay assembled. There is only one of me, and this short lived assembly of me, will eventually never be again, as is the I AM of what I am NOW ...  but I AM still 100% GOD! That's how gawed works! I don't call this "belief" of mine "faith" ... but word definitions certainly make communication difficult.

The only honest "choice" is acceptance, and the only way to the "truth" is science, which BTW includes all speculation.

   Well, there I've done it again, and said nothing much .... Ahhhh SHIT!  I suck at debating ... 


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Arj wrote:jcgadfly wrote:Arj

Arj wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Arj wrote:

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

To be human is to be born screaming in shock, to then live a life in awe, knowing pain and joy, and that death awaits, which unfortunately can make for a sense of guilt, fear, despair, and so the confusion, as we communicate our plight, stuck in this awe, we seek to understand.

It is the on going battle we all share, life itself, the awe, which I call gawed. Yes, in the spirit of wanting world cooperation, I do yell in frustration. Yet I seek no forgiveness for my human-ness, but I do seek the truth of what all existence is, rejecting wishful thinking of an afterlife, as I dream and speculate of how we all could live this life of awe NOW, most peacefully. The children are my greatest mentors.

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days...Now I wonder who this boat load of emotion effects the most?

Life is a wonderful thing in and of itself - why mess it up by adding a spirit world?

Is this rhetorical?

Only if you wish it to be.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:Arj

jcgadfly wrote:

Arj wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Arj wrote:

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

To be human is to be born screaming in shock, to then live a life in awe, knowing pain and joy, and that death awaits, which unfortunately can make for a sense of guilt, fear, despair, and so the confusion, as we communicate our plight, stuck in this awe, we seek to understand.

It is the on going battle we all share, life itself, the awe, which I call gawed. Yes, in the spirit of wanting world cooperation, I do yell in frustration. Yet I seek no forgiveness for my human-ness, but I do seek the truth of what all existence is, rejecting wishful thinking of an afterlife, as I dream and speculate of how we all could live this life of awe NOW, most peacefully. The children are my greatest mentors.

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days...Now I wonder who this boat load of emotion effects the most?

Life is a wonderful thing in and of itself - why mess it up by adding a spirit world?

Is this rhetorical?

Only if you wish it to be.

It doesn't effect me either way.

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:Arj, I

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

Arj, I was raised to ask what isn't god, which resulted in me rejecting anything that suggested mystic immaterial separatism ideas. I freely admit I am totally opinionated in my "awe". 

You could say I am dense, as I the lack the ability to have honest "faith" that there was ever a beginning, or a non completely material eternal, all encompassing , timeless cosmos of bangs, black holes, antimatter, etc and whatever we might come to call all connected reality.

To me , to say "afterlife", just means the "thermodynamic principal" of never dying energy/matter transitions, but where our individual consciousness can not stay assembled. There is only one of me, and this short lived assembly of me, will eventually never be again, as is the I AM of what I am NOW ...  but I AM still 100% GOD! That's how gawed works! I don't call this "belief" of mine "faith" ... but word definitions certainly make communication difficult.

The only honest "choice" is acceptance, and the only way to the "truth" is science, which BTW includes all speculation.

   Well, there I've done it again, and said nothing much .... Ahhhh SHIT!  I suck at debating ... 

I get y your saying there is no afterlife now. I want to hear this evidence and weigh it against what I know so far. I'm curious.

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15726?page=9#comment-206178


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Arj wrote:jcgadfly wrote:Arj

Arj wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Arj wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Arj wrote:

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

To be human is to be born screaming in shock, to then live a life in awe, knowing pain and joy, and that death awaits, which unfortunately can make for a sense of guilt, fear, despair, and so the confusion, as we communicate our plight, stuck in this awe, we seek to understand.

It is the on going battle we all share, life itself, the awe, which I call gawed. Yes, in the spirit of wanting world cooperation, I do yell in frustration. Yet I seek no forgiveness for my human-ness, but I do seek the truth of what all existence is, rejecting wishful thinking of an afterlife, as I dream and speculate of how we all could live this life of awe NOW, most peacefully. The children are my greatest mentors.

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days...Now I wonder who this boat load of emotion effects the most?

Life is a wonderful thing in and of itself - why mess it up by adding a spirit world?

Is this rhetorical?

Only if you wish it to be.

It doesn't effect me either way.

Ah, but it does. You can't seem to see the beauty of life without the addition of the spirits. How does that addition enhance your life?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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I am curious too, LOL ...

I am curious too, LOL ... Let's never assume.


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jcgadfly wrote:Arj

jcgadfly wrote:

Arj wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Arj wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Arj wrote:

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

To be human is to be born screaming in shock, to then live a life in awe, knowing pain and joy, and that death awaits, which unfortunately can make for a sense of guilt, fear, despair, and so the confusion, as we communicate our plight, stuck in this awe, we seek to understand.

It is the on going battle we all share, life itself, the awe, which I call gawed. Yes, in the spirit of wanting world cooperation, I do yell in frustration. Yet I seek no forgiveness for my human-ness, but I do seek the truth of what all existence is, rejecting wishful thinking of an afterlife, as I dream and speculate of how we all could live this life of awe NOW, most peacefully. The children are my greatest mentors.

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days...Now I wonder who this boat load of emotion effects the most?

Life is a wonderful thing in and of itself - why mess it up by adding a spirit world?

Is this rhetorical?

Only if you wish it to be.

It doesn't effect me either way.

Ah, but it does. You can't seem to see the beauty of life without the addition of the spirits. How does that addition enhance your life?

What on earth are you talking about? Let's presume that you DON'T know me and can STOP thinking for me. Obama just won! I'm so happy.

‘Cause you keep tellin’ me this and tellin’ me that...You say once I’m with you, I’ll never go back... You say there’s a lesson that you wanna teach.... Well, here I am, baby, practice what you preach...
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