Luminon, that sounds absolutely amazing. I share your vision of a universe where every homo sapien resides at the apex of reason and goodwill. The difference is that I feel your perspective on human nature is overly idealistic; I'm afraid I cannot share it. I also possess a drastically more individualistic worldview than you. If every paranormal claim is trusted, con artists will exploit society for personal gain. If I let a stranger guard my suitcase, the stranger will steal my suitcase. It feels pleasant to believe that everyone will be as honest as me, but it is unrealistic.

If the lower classes pump the corporation's dry, who will produce the resources for the general public? 

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, the trust must be first created, and this is a work on many years. We can't trust anyone in our competition-driven society, but we can start to transform it by very simple initial steps. Most importantly, sharing of the excessive resources worldwidely.
This is then something which will start to affect everyone's thoughts, because the reports of people and countries being helped can fill the media, there will be good news, instead of the bad.This is all just a beginning, a simple one, but important.

Btw, Matt, about the paranormal con artists, here's the advice to try them, if they're cheap and judge according to results. People who demands too much money does it for money only and shouldn't be trusted.

See above. As for the realism, it's bold, but it's the only way how to start solving the crises we're in. Having a selfish, competitive governments, economics and society is irrational, and inevitably leads to a very violent collapse. If you want to share the resources, to help others, to support this vision, then you need to do just one thing - say it. Express your will. Let your voice be heard. Before it might be futile, but in these times we all saw that our economic structures are collapsing, well, practically everything fails. This weakened the authorities and will ever more, so this is the right time to get angry and express the will of the people.
 

It looks like the exaggeration fallacy. I don't mean sucking the corporations dry, I mean taking away and sharing their excessive resources, which they hold back in storages, to not drop the price on the market. These resources, if edible, simply rots in there. It does no good to anyone, it just makes the corporations' profits even more extreme, and we don't need that.
Furthermore, as for the food, if people will be fed and supported, they will have a time and energy to work for themselves, instead for the corporations and a terrible prices. A methods similar to a permaculture are already known. For example, an article from the magazine Share International, the Trends section:
Earlier this year a Ugandan farmer travelled to London to demonstrate her 'keyhole' gardening at the prestigious Hampton Court Flower show. The award-winning garden demonstrated techniques which are helping many African farmers out of poverty and are also relevant to gardens everywhere. ...
There is a tremendous amount of money and resources we waste every year, which could transform the world in any moment. Did you know that the price of 700 billions of dollars which was used to save the banks recently, could erradicate malaria forever,  for about 30 times?

Indeed, you're right, there will be a great simplification in production of resources for the general public. I expect that mainly in the commercial area. All these packages, colourful, intricate, mostly empty, for one use, full of junk food, are a terrible waste of materials, meant only to sell, to make money, they're like a holy wafer of money worship. They have no nutritive value, they're only meant to be sold.  So yes, it seems we will live much simplier lives, but far more happier ones. I certainly would be happier if I wouldn't have so many dental fillings, myopy, allergy, and a few kilos over, thanks, Mrs Coca Cola and Mr McDonald.

No. The ONLY losers are the idiots who wanted to debate non-testable ideas in the first place. Remember, from jump I said I am NOT debating my supernatural beliefs (and that was the EXACT reason I gave) but none of these hardheaded atheists could understand this even though they themselves were trolling and lacked the evidence for what they were spouting and claiming all along. This thread ended up in trollville because of you all. However, I knew better. I won on this basis because you all finally (500 posts later) came to see the light.

How are you gonna adopt my philosophy, claim I won my argument, then try to paint me as acting from the same ignorance as you? That's bullshit and hypocritical. I never showed my ass like you all did.

Right. I pointed this out before. This is an Appeal to Ignorance argument. A logical fallacy. Click on the second link in my signature. Ok. In the instance of "evidence" no one has won or lost. I agree. I felt like I was saying that all along. But as far as THIS debate goes- about demanding that one needs to PROVE themselves- I won. Yes sir. LOL

NO NO NO Arj. Your concept of what evidence is, in this place we exist in awe, I find dangerous, as it appeases dogmatic fundamentalism and wishful fantasy, as being worthy concepts.

A quick read,

Religious Moderation

http://www.rationalresponders.com/religious_moderation

 

What's the point of this post? You just said we are all winners and all losers when it comes to "non-testable" ideas and now you are trying- through your actions- to retract that statement as well. Do you know the meaning of the word hypocrite? Or does this just occur subliminally? You just called truce and now you want to continue to debate through some inaccurate, ficitious recount of events. I can tell, Atheists hate to be wrong.

Thank you. I wanted the full story to be told.

Indeed Arj. Communication can be hard.

I don't understand why after you presented your beliefs, and then we presented our reasons for not believing as you, and giving you our limited evidence as to why, you went on to basically ridicule us and our limited evidence, and refused to offer your evidence, which resulted in some of us ridiculing you. ?

Do you just reject "scientific evidence", and then say anything is equally possible ???

It's not a rebuttle to your previous post. It's an agreement and 2 quesions .... Your message to the children is what and why?

DP

See, I couldn't comprehend this at first because I don't know what you mean by kids. But I'm assuming you mean what message am I gonna pass on to my daughter. The beliefs in my OP are the messages I am gonna pass onto my daughter. You have to comprehend the fact that there is no lack of evidence in my life for these beliefs. I know this is hard to understand but that's the truth. Correct me if I'm wrong IAGAY. Do you just reject "scientific evidence", and then say anything is equally possible ??? Did I misinterpret this the first time? Are you asking me what's my rational behind my actions? That's a question I can answer. In fact, I've been saying this all along too but I doubt you were listening. The answer is No. I don't think Christ, god, or the spaghetti monster is possible but I do know ONE thing that has infinite possibilities. This is the ONLY reason I refuse to debate such issues. The answer is Subjectivity. If we become aware of the role that subjectivity plays in Life you will come to find it's pointless to argue over such trivial, non-testable matters. This is definitely something I'm gonna pass onto my daughter as well. It can lead to a rational, sound mind and body.

 

I think so, because this process is already almost a half done. Things like a charity, peace activism and calling for justice are today more abundant than ever. This is what the globalization is good for, people gets known with the suffering of others and are concerned with that. They respond to ideals like Brotherhood, Justice or Freedom, they like them, and they worry, because the world is not like that. They may feel terrible because of that, but it's a good sign, a sign of love and good will, because an indifference, or joyful ignorance would be much worse.
So, according to the Share International magazine, which keeps a track of the good news for like 30 years, it is  like that, 50/50, one half of the world in the service of fear, and the other in service of love. This is why our situation seems like a dead end. But the vast reports and interviews about the peace, charity, politics, economy, ecology, sociology, new trends and so on, featured by Share International, provides a notable alternative to the grim and clearly biased content of the main media. There is a lot of good things happening in the world, too.
I don't promise an utopia. The thing I mean is starting a work which will eventually bring the whole world into a permanently sustainable society, which is what all the peaceful people ever wanted. It's a slow process, but even in it's early stages it will have immense and measurable impacts. There will be suddenly enough of good news to fill the media every day.
 

The trust is an effect, not a cause. There will come a time when it will be possible without a risk, but not yet. Maybe with some people, as it's the saying, a confidence obliges.

The competition is diffcult to keep "fair", and when it gets unfair, unhealthy, it's impossible to contain. It had spread into the most vital parts of our civilization. How do you feel about being rejected at a hospital for a lack of money? Can't tell the feeling, if you're dead.
We don't all start with the same chances. Thus, the succesful individuals are winners, because they compete mainly with the weaker ones, destined to be a victims. This creates a division, a handful of the winners, and a lot of the defeated. A typical example of this are whole billions of the poor people living on less than 1 dollar per day, while a handful of the rich exploits them, and they try to keep them militarily in check. There is an extreme unequality in life standards and the extreme unequalities tends to equalize themselves very violently. We in the times of nuclear weapons can't afford it, it would destroy everything. Instead, I propose the sharing, which will make the world more equal, but also unharmed and improved in the process.

Btw, how do you know that a competition is more effective than cooperation? Maybe the competition was behind many inventions, but they were achieved by a cooperation of people in a team. For that I'd recommend you a book by Ben Creme, The Art of Cooperation. I didn't read the book yet, but as you see, there's something about the healthy competition, and it would answer a lot of your questions, the names of chapters suggests so.
If you'll read anything from there, be assured, that it's a good tradition to cherry-pick everything you don't like or don't understand and take only the thoughts you like. People does it with a secular humanism, for example.
 

No problem, this is an extremely broad area of interrelated topics and is surely confusing at first, but fortunately is also interesting, I think.

 

Hold up. You said I won IAGAY several posts back. Those were your words and now you are trying to retract that stance. Listen, when I answered a question in regards to my beliefs and people had nothing but belligerent comments in response that shows how close-minded you all are and why it's pointless to debate. I can't believe none of you atheists want to be held accountable for your actions while I'm sure you are all sick of Christians who like to blame the Devil for all of their misdeeds. Talk about hypocritical. There are plenty of studies on reincarnation and past life regressions. I think you just mentally choose to dismiss them all. You are blissfully ignorant and are now acting like it's my responsibility to school you. It's not. 

How would you answer these thoughts to the children?

Thinking on evolution and it's relationship to "afterlife", do all life forms have an "after life"?

I do not know this. I don't know what evolution has to do with the afterlife in the first place.

In the next afterlife is memory of the life before retained?

I can say yes because of my personal experiences.

Are we an interacting community in the afterlife"?

Yes.

What do we do there?

I know of a few things that take place but I don't know everything they do. If you are really interested in this stuff you could seek out a paranormal expert.

Do we feel pain and joy and confusion?

I can say for sure joy! LOL but I don't see why they would feel pain or confusion. However, there are stories about vengeful spirits so once you do your own research you might have a better understanding here.

How come most all people have no memory of any "pre life"?

That's not true. View top statement.

 

How many times did I tell you I wasn't trying to convert anybody dumbass! You're not listening. I think what your problem is is you were looking to get converted.... you are the ones that proclaim this self-important role thinking that the world should prove something to you. How ignorant is that? Hey I would rather be a loser if you thought that was my objective. I should say that I have proclaimed many times over that it wasn't but that continues to fall on deaf ears, apparently. I wouldn't want bias, irrational, delusional, deaf, hard headed, knuckle heads like you all for disciples. LOL!!!! And I would NEVER want to be one of you either. This forum is scary enough as it is.

...re-think your ridiculous sense of importance and grander....

LOL

Since Luminion and arj, seem completely incapable of rational argument and correct spelling and grammar, I have composed this helpful and IN NO WAY INSULTING chart for you, written in code!

 

python

run

idea1 = "Have completely unverifiable and irrational beliefs in the afterlife that have absolutely no proof"

idea2 = "Because my beliefs are subjective, you can't challenge them."

idea3 = "Both our ideas are equally valid."

idea4 = "I won the debate."

obfuscation1 = use unintelligible language

obfuscation2 = "That's my point, you proved it!"

obfuscation3 = say "I win!" over and over again

obfuscation4 = Repeat claim that someone is wrong, when there is no evidence

action1 = Someone calls you out on irrational beliefs

action2 = Someone shows the lack of logic to argument

action3 = Someone asks for proof

action4 = Someone says something so smart you have no idea what they mean

reaction1 = Use circular logic,

reaction2 = pull out fancy fallacies whose meaning is unknown to you

reaction3 = attempt to place burden of proof on other person 

reaction4 = use childish insults

 

IF idea1 gets action1

THEN reaction3 OR reaction1 WITH obfuscation1

 

IF reaction3 or reaction 1 get action2

THEN reaction2 and idea2 WITH obfuscation1 AND obfuscation4

 

IF idea2 gets action2 or action4

THEN reaction2, idea3, OR obfuscation3

 

IF idea3 gets action4

THEN reaction 4, obfuscation3, AND idea4

 

loop

end

 

To both of you, arj and Luminion, your beliefs are NOT unchallengeable, this is the mistake that so many theists have made while spouting their hatred and vitriol; and when you pull fallacies out of your butt, quote out of context, and generally make debating rationally with you an exercise in pounding a metaphorical hammer repeatedly into your skull, then you have come here for the wrong purpose.

 

 

SO TRUE!

And welcome to the hizzle!

 

Indeed Arj  ... so go asap and do your 40 days, to come back with a more awesome appreciation of what we really are and a love for humbling science and a rejection of wishful woo woo.

*sigh*

God is a virtually meaningless term; by definition, we cannot even quantify such an entity or understand its characteristics.

IAGAY calling himself God does not mean that he can't make mistakes because he obviously isn't referring to Jehovah, Allah, or any other invisible, all-powerful bearded man. This appears to be a common misunderstanding. Instead, being an atheist, IAGAY is contending, "What is not God?" (I don't see where he identified you as a theist anyways.) If I may venture further, correct me if I'm wrong IAGAY, when there are no religious Gods dictating everything, we, humans, have the capacity to change the world and to decide our fates. We are our own judges; we have all the power. Thus, we are all Gods, and I AM GOD AS YOU.

Hmmm, okay.

Oh, haha. Yes, I was assuming that trusting others would be the cause.

But, my biggest question still remains. My impression of human nature is extremely negative, and I simply believe that the society you're proposing, or, at least, the one you believe we should work towards is unrealistic. Perhaps, you are suggesting that we should campaign in the general direction of a such a world without expecting an idealistic peak? Like the secularists approach to morality?

I would call it comparing apples and oranges. Each type of interaction has its advantages and disadvantages, and the best possible worldwide economy should contain both elements. Of course, it's impossible to have 100% competition or cooperation, but, hypothetically, I think a purely capitalist society would spiral out of control while a purely socialist society would collapse due to lack of incentive.    

Yay! I might read it.

 

But I can actually have a rational conversation with Luminon. He maintains a pretty solid agnosticism of his beliefs while Arj is just.......eh......stupid.

Yes, I basically suggest that. You're not alone in your discomfort with a current state of the world and people. We all call for a change, your impression is extremely negative, because we are in all possible worldwide crises, it's completely justified. But don't let it overwhelm you and make you unable of a good action. For that I recommend you to read the good news from the area of charity, politics, inventions, and so on. These messages are true and important too, seeing only the evil things is  a half of the truth. Soon you will see that the evil in the world has also it's powerful counterpart, the good will of people. The Share International magazine makes sure to publish these good news, though also some alarming information. For example, the second part of interview with Noam Chomsky. (specially for Americans) The abridged versions of all the issues back to 2003 are available on the homepage.

Furthermore, you probably don't know what the human nature really is. I can confirm that IAGAY knows it exactly, men and women are Gods. Humanity is the messiah of the world.  All the saviors, geniuses, great leaders and artists are just a guarantee of that fact, a few of early ripe samples from a vastly unripe species. Every human has a potential to become like that, to become godlike whatever it means. We still evolve, and our global problems are the problems of maturing. It would be very good to know that about ourselves, who we are, and work collectively on self-development. We have the potential, which waits to be manifested, the potential of self-realization. Now comes such a phase when we will be finally able to do that, we can only gain now. We drove ourselves to desperacy, so we can do nothing else than change or die, but many believes we already made the right choice.
 

This is true. Notice, that the most stable states in a current financial crisis are the northern ones, like Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norwegia, and so on. (not Iceland) It is because they have more than 50% of socialism in their system. However, that's still not enough. The common citizens, who are what we all live for and with, doesn't need a great ratio of capitalism in a state, for their business. Only the great corporations needs it, they are technically not citizens of anywhere, they parasites on them, doing nothing for the state, so they don't deserve a 95% capitalism as we have in the most of the world.
30% of capitalism is just right to satisfy the need for a human-sized business. This ratio reflects a change from the money pursuit to "human resources".
When you realize, that the money is today a comodity, artificially produced by central banks out of nothing, then leaving the commercialism is the same thing as escaping a worldwide slavery in deceit. There are much more profitable goals than a war, dominion or commercialism. We will discover a new purposes of life.
 

Thanks I think it's a result of some self-development I commit upon myself, maybe my meditations helped, it would match the last half year. Yeah, I have my moments, I try to ride the proverbial McKenna's wave. (if I find the quote)
Being a gnostic means some limited knowledge, and it also means knowing that there's many things I don't or can't know. This is why I'm also an agnostic. Wow, what a paradox

There is a perfect quote of Terrence McKenna which I can't currently reach (the page is temporarily down) but here's another, which says exactly what I mean, what all the world thinks already for many years.
As the dark clouds of war gather and obscure the sunlit sky of peace, the response of humanity is twofold: mute acceptance and compliance with the will of the warmongers, or active and spirited resistance to their plans and ploys. Today, we see both reactions in equal measure. Half the world is caught up in the glamour of ‘a war against terrorism’ (without recognizing the underlying cause) and in terrorism itself. The other half deplores both terrorism and the lack of understanding of its genesis. They know that changes, on a major scale, alone hold the key to ending this atrocious evil, and call to the leaders of nations to recognize and address the inequalities which so unfairly divide the world. This latter group must grow and increase their resistance to the plans of those, now in power, who so threaten the stability of the world. They must find each other and work together, knowing that they work and speak for the vast but silent majority who share their longing for peace and manifested justice.
(SI, 2004)

(wow, what a badass I am, hijacking a topic or recycling? )

PS, it seems I will be away for the weekend. A sports action at a cottage, and a few fellow Christians who never saw a blasphemous witch (me) to play soccer.